What Age to Spay?

Grousehunter74 · Post by **Grousehunter74** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 3:40 pm

What is the latest thought/recommendation on spaying a dog. My vet says 6 months, I have always thought that to be the age, but I have read some articles that suggest waiting until 18 months.

What the latest you are hearing on what age to spay?

thx

Post by **kninebirddog** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 4:24 pm

More and more they are showing the longer you can wait the better specially for active dogs to wait till after they have physically matured.

GUNDOGS · Post by **GUNDOGS** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 4:31 pm

I wouldnt worry about what age for any particular reason..i know the shelters i transport for spay/neuter at 3 months old and have never had issues and some are 6 or 7 years old and get spayed with no issues either..i would say if you want to avoid the heat cycles and be sure to avoid the dog possibly getting pregnant do it at 6 months other than that it dont really matter.....ruth

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 5:23 pm

Wait untill the dog is physicaly & mentaly mature,Needs the hormones to complete the process.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 5:31 pm

http://time4dogs.blogspot.com/2010/12/r ... euter.html

here is a blog which covers many of the things they don't tell you about spaying to young
then scroll to the bottom for some more research

The elongated femur bone is a tale tell sign on a alter to early and then incontinence in the females which I know countless females on proin which every one that I know of has been spayed

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 5:56 pm

Around 15 to 18 months for most female sporting breeds. The larger the dog, the older for optimum maturity.

GUNDOGS · Post by **GUNDOGS** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:55 pm

I would stick to what you said in your op which is "my vet says 6 months" ..theres all kinds of articles and opinions out there but i would leave it up to the guy/gal with the degree, experience, education, who knows your dog, and performs the surgeries daily as well as keeps up to date on seminars and research..for every link that says you shouldnt spay younger dogs theres another that says you should....ruth

Nhuskr · Post by **Nhuskr** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:03 pm

GUNDOGS wrote:I would stick to what you said in your op which is "my vet says 6 months" ..theres all kinds of articles and opinions out there but i would leave it up to the guy/gal with the degree, experience, education, who knows your dog, and performs the surgeries daily as well as keeps up to date on seminars and research..for every link that says you shouldnt spay younger dogs theres another that says you should....ruth

My vet wanted to neuter my pup at 4 mos!! When I told him I was waiting because of the research I had been doing about the benefits of waiting, and the growing too fast in the legs, he gave me a blank look, then said something to the effect of "Horse people want the extra leg length from castrating early." Hellooo, this is a dog we're talking about, not a horse. Think I'll stick to my guns on this one, and ignore the expert.

Cheryl

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:52 pm

GUNDOGS wrote:I would stick to what you said in your op which is "my vet says 6 months" ..theres all kinds of articles and opinions out there but i would leave it up to the guy/gal with the degree, experience, education, who knows your dog, and performs the surgeries daily as well as keeps up to date on seminars and research..for every link that says you shouldnt spay younger dogs theres another that says you should....ruth

Ruth it is fine to have an opinion and use it on your dogs. But when there are unwanted results that are well proven why would you recommend a failed procedure to someone wanting good info. We know, though it sounds you may not have ever seen what a pup with the abnormal growth looks like and what it does to their physical well being when they are sporting or working dogs. May not effect small lap dogs to much but if you get to pay for ACL repair twice which is quite common in our taller sporting dogs like the GSP I think you will learn what is being talked about. Have you seen the pups coats that were spayed early and seen how they stay fine and fuzzy rather than a nice coat like your pup.

Again, everyone has the right to do as they like but please don't get on a forum like this that is designed to help newcomers to our dogs and our sport and tell them it makes no difference. It does, it has, and it will in many of the dogs that we don't do the right thing for just because PETA and HSUS says we need to neuter early to prevent unwanted puppies. That might be a valid reason if the strays and uncared for dogs were the ones being neutered but I don't think it is valid for those of us that care about our dogs and care for them to the best of our ability. Are you going to allow your pup to run lose and be bred after spending the money for her that you have? I don't think so. Are you going to spay your pup and then spend thousands of dollars in the future putting titles on her. Or are you going to neuter a male dog and have him disqualified for many of the things we can do with our dogs?

Lets give people honest information rather than opinions that were fostered by entities that have an ulterior motive.

Ezzy

big steve46 · Post by **big steve46** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:40 pm

The Vets are brainwashed in vet school by the do-gooder organizations that give grants. Give the dog a break, and wait until after the first heat cycle at least.

SD Pheasant Slayer · Post by **SD Pheasant Slayer** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:35 pm

It's interesting that this topic would come up now. I had the opportunity yesterday to attend a presentation by 2010 Theriogenologist of the Year, Dr. Margaret Root Kustritz on this very topic. She's faculty at the U. of Minnesota Vet School and a board certified theriogenologist doing work on the health risks and benefits of spaying/neutering. Her talk was informative and very interesting, from a student standpoint, as well as a dog owner. Based on her studies, from a strictly "long-term health of the dog" standpoint, a female should be spayed after 3 months and before her first heat. I didn't get a chance to ask her if her opinion might change for a performance dog as I had to get to my next class. It would have been interesting to hear her answer.

I get a little agitated by the "vet schools brainwashing students" angle. There are a lot of vets that might be a little out of touch with the requirements and expectations of sporting dogs, but let's keep in mind what percentage of their business is devoted to performance animals versus lap dogs. For my money, I'll take a vet that defaults to the interests of my dog's health every time. Now, hopefully a person would be able to explain that what they expect from their dog is different than a normal pet owner and have a discussion with their vets regarding a different approach, but keep in mind that vets suggesting spays before a first heat cycle are making that decision based on research telling them that they're doing right by the dog.

I can't speak for all the nation's vet schools, but in my experience, there is very little if any input from the "do-gooders" like HSUS. Veterinarians are an educated group, and most of the faculty I've talked to and nearly every student I know, share a pretty similar opinion of HSUS as we all do.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:44 pm

There is influence by do gooders
Look at the Anti Dock bills matter a fact places in Sweden and Africa have no Dock laws now and what is happening instead of people taking dogs in to get it done they are doing it themselves. I know plenty of people who can do a fine job of docking tails but many do not have the heart to do it right and then run into troubles. and they are trying to push for it here

I had some pups I needed to have docked when I was on the road and there are vets that will not dock tails saying it wasn't needed. Then asked when I wanted to make an appointment I told the Gal I have brittanys and I wasn't going to waste my time at a vets office that wasn't going to perform ALL the services I request.

RoostersMom · Post by **RoostersMom** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:11 pm

I have 11 dogs, all are spayed or neutered. 6 females of the bunch - three spayed after 6 months of age but before a year old, one spayed at 4 years old (bought her as a 4 year old) and two spayed at about 5 months old. The research I paid attention to was the research showing females that were spayed before their first heat were much less likely to develop pyometra. And though I trust my ability to keep dogs separate, I do not trust the neighbors' dogs and my dogs are often kenneled outside especially when I'm at work.

I have one pointer that was spayed at a year old that has urinary incontinence. A good friend has another two females (both intact) that are on Prion for incontinence. It can happen to dogs whether spayed or not. If I had a larger breed dog, I would likely wait until it was a year old to have it neutered or spayed - but only if there was zero chance of an accidental breeding. I have fostered over 50 birddogs for the local shelter and a few breed rescues. About 1/3 of them are females and all have been spayed - this pointer that I have is the first one that I've dealt with that has incontinence. The shelter I work with spays and neuters at 8 weeks old. My preference is to wait until just before the first heat.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:42 pm

RoostersMom wrote:I have 11 dogs, all are spayed or neutered. 6 females of the bunch - three spayed after 6 months of age but before a year old, one spayed at 4 years old (bought her as a 4 year old) and two spayed at about 5 months old. The research I paid attention to was the research showing females that were spayed before their first heat were much less likely to develop pyometra. And though I trust my ability to keep dogs separate, I do not trust the neighbors' dogs and my dogs are often kenneled outside especially when I'm at work.

I have one pointer that was spayed at a year old that has urinary incontinence. A good friend has another two females (both intact) that are on Prion for incontinence. It can happen to dogs whether spayed or not. If I had a larger breed dog, I would likely wait until it was a year old to have it neutered or spayed - but only if there was zero chance of an accidental breeding. I have fostered over 50 birddogs for the local shelter and a few breed rescues. About 1/3 of them are females and all have been spayed - this pointer that I have is the first one that I've dealt with that has incontinence. The shelter I work with spays and neuters at 8 weeks old. My preference is to wait until just before the first heat.

A 30% longer lifespan means that you could have many additional years with your bitch simple by delaying spay surgery until middle-age or later.

Behavioral studies show that sterilization increases fearfulness, noise phobias and aggression. Other well-documented adverse health effects of de-sexing include increased risk of bone cancer, hemangiosarcoma, hypothyroidism, and cognitive dysfunction in older pets. Sterilization confers an increased susceptibility to infectious disease, and also a higher incidence of adverse reactions to vaccines.(10)
So there is no need to feel obligated to sterilize for health or welfare reasons. But, what about the need to protect the puppies that we sell from unethical breeders?

Think you must havew missed this .

Ezzy

GUNDOGS · Post by **GUNDOGS** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:53 am

Are you serious ezzy!! you are actually telling me to NOT tell the OP to take the advice of the vet he is seeing for his dog? i totally agree people should come on here for advice, opinions or information, i totally agree alot of people on here are experienced and are knowledgeable and give great advice as well..i am not saying that theres no point to this forum or for people not to ask questions, i ask many questions on here myself BUT vets do not spend years and years in school, in internships and ongoing seminars ect JUST to make money.. nobody on here nor do any blogs or links know this particular dog BUT his vet does..yes, its a job just like a physician you do make a living but they do not give you bad advice and tell you to spay your dog just because they want the 20 bucks they make off of it after they pay for the expense of anesthetic, the penicillin, the technicians and to keep the clinic running..no i wouldnt want my pup to end up pregnant and yes accidents do happen, my pup is a product of an accidental breeding..just because a breeder ends up with puppies that werent planned doesnt mean the breeders are irresponsible but these ACCIDENTS do happen all the time and sometimes its not the male that we are happy with it may just be the poodle from next door..so i dont understand your logic that if we dont want our bitches to get pregnant they wont because we are careful..sure you can take precautions but its not always 100% preventable.. as far as the OP not being able to enter his dog in events that he couldnt enter in because of altering the dog why dont you just tell him that? if he has a bird dog im sure he knows his plans for the dog and it may not be titling so it may not be an issue but just inform him of that then..i have a 7 year old chocolate lab here right now that has all kinds of issues with her bladder and mammary glands and she has NOT been spayed yet so not only spayed dogs have reproductive organ/cancer or incontinence issues..if i didnt plan on breeding my pup later i would seek the advice of a vet and if advised i would spay her at 6 months as well, i would want to avoid any chances of her becoming pregnant also avoid the mess of her heats, and i would be able to take her hunting/trials/tests without missing them because of a heat.. so im not giving the OP any advice i wouldnt do myself..also i had my pup at the vet 2 weeks ago to get microchipped and told the vet we intended to title her and later breed her and he said "if you are breeding its best to have homes lined up for the pups in advance to avoid any unwanted pups" but other than that he looked at her pedigree and her bite and really spent time with her and said shes a great example of the breed and with the proper selection of a stud she would have some impressive pups..this is the same vet that charges me half off on altering my rescues and provides me with free vitamins that are 50 bucks a bottle (visorbits) so money is not his motivation for advice believe me

.......ruth

GUNDOGS · Post by **GUNDOGS** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:38 am

and ezzy i think you might have missed this..It's been estimated that up to 40% of dogs surrendered to animal shelters are pure breeds.

Breeding dogs ethically and conscientiously is a serious, difficult and sometimes heartbreaking business, not a quick and easy road to profit. It's definitely not something you want to enter into lightly.

Spaying our neutering your dog is one very real way in which you can help reduce the number of unwanted puppies and abandoned dogs, that sit sadly in city pounds and rescue centers all over the country.

Then there are the health benefits to your dog....

Spaying or neutering your pooch can increase his/her life expectancy by between 1 and 3 years! And pets who have been 'altered' or 'sterilized' (to use other common terms) have a minimal risk of reproductive order cancers and tumors.
Early spaying

In the United States, most dogs are spayed between 5 and 8 months of age. Many animal shelters and veterinarians are starting to spay female animals at a younger age, even at 2 months. This early spaying does not affect the growth rate, and there are no appreciable differences in skeletal, physical, or behavioral development between those animals spayed early than those spayed at a more traditional age. It must be remembered that younger animals may need different anesthetics and are more prone to hypothermia (lower than normal body temperature) during surgery. As long as procedures are modified to account for these differences, early neutering is very safe. In fact, animals spayed at a younger age often have faster recoveries than those spayed when they are older.

i got this off of a link as well, so like i said for every one that says dont one says its ok.....ruth

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:47 am

It is a subjective decision, but I sure wouldn't trust most vets on matters of canine reproduction. They are so tangled up in the rescue philosophy, it is virtually impossible for most to offer any sound advice.

dog dr · Post by **dog dr** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:17 am

Cajun Casey wrote:It is a subjective decision, but I sure wouldn't trust most vets on matters of canine reproduction. They are so tangled up in the rescue philosophy, it is virtually impossible for most to offer any sound advice.

Key word : MOST

Anybody know what the incidence of malignant mammary cancer is in intact female dogs??

GUNDOGS · Post by **GUNDOGS** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:31 am

dog dr wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:It is a subjective decision, but I sure wouldn't trust most vets on matters of canine reproduction. They are so tangled up in the rescue philosophy, it is virtually impossible for most to offer any sound advice.
Key word : MOST

Anybody know what the incidence of malignant mammary cancer is in intact female dogs??

Hi dogdr, this is from Canine Cancer Awareness.org

OVERVIEW *
Did you know that half of all the tumors in female dogs are preventable breast tumors? Dogs develop breast cancer because they were not spayed before their first or second heat period. Intact female dogs are highly prone to developing breast tumors. In fact, they are seven times more likely to get breast cancer than a spayed dog. One out of four intact female dogs over 4 years of age will probably develop one or more breast tumors along the mammary gland chains. Half of all tumors are malignant and unfortunately, half to 75% of them will kill the dog by recurrence or spreading (metastasizing) to the lungs within one to two years.
......ruth

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:54 am

Ok so how many Spayed females are left to take proin for the rest of their lives because of incontinence due to being spayed?
Or how many early spayed and neutered animals are going through ACL and other surgeries to correct ligament and tendon damage mostly due to bones not stopping growth because there isn't the hormones to trigger the bones to stop growing at the time they are supposed to

IF I was told this is MOST LIKELY be the choices of spaying early or waiting till after the dog is Physically Mature I would rather take in a 10-12 year old dog for some beginning tumors to get removed then take in a dog in the prime of it's life for ACL surgery

Like Dog Dr said in another post.. To a person who talked about Altering early it went something like "So many women have a chance to get breast cancer, so is she planning on getting a mastectomy?" I will have to find that post it gave me a pretty good chuckle

Some stuff just comes down to That's Life those are the cards we are dealt ...Play them

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 8:54 am

dog dr wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:It is a subjective decision, but I sure wouldn't trust most vets on matters of canine reproduction. They are so tangled up in the rescue philosophy, it is virtually impossible for most to offer any sound advice.
Key word : MOST

Anybody know what the incidence of malignant mammary cancer is in intact female dogs??

AKC CFH may have that info. I do know the top concentration is on lymphoma right now.

The way I look at it, there are probably podiatrists that could deliver babies, but it is really a good idea for all concerned?

DougB · Post by **DougB** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:29 am

My dog was spayed before first heat. No bad outcomes.

The research on this is all over the place. It depends on what you want to believe. From my view, the primary reason for spay/neuter is to combat a rising population of unwanted dogs-which just may not be the situation now. This a short excerpt of a good summery of the research on S/N

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/longterm ... indogs.pdf

Long-Term Health Risks and Benefits Associated with Spay / Neuter in Dogs
Laura J. Sanborn, M.S.
May 14, 2007

Precis
At some point, most of us with an interest in dogs will have to consider whether or not to spay / neuter our pet. Tradition holds that the benefits of doing so at an early age outweigh the risks. Often, tradition holds sway in the decision-making process even after countervailing evidence has accumulated. Ms Sanborn has reviewed the veterinary medical literature in an exhaustive and scholarly treatise, attempting to unravel the complexities of the subject. More than 50 peer-reviewed papers were examined to assess the health impacts of spay / neuter in female and male dogs, respectively. One cannot ignore the findings of increased risk from osteosarcoma, hemangiosarcoma, hypothyroidism, and other less frequently occurring diseases associated with neutering male dogs. It would be irresponsible of the veterinary profession and the pet owning community to fail to weigh the relative costs and benefits of neutering on the animal’s health and well-being. The decision for females may be more complex, further emphasizing the need for individualized veterinary medical decisions, not standard operating procedures for all patients.

No sweeping generalizations are implied in this review. Rather, the author asks us to consider all the health and disease information available as individual animals are evaluated. Then, the best decisions should be made accounting for gender, age, breed, and even the specific conditions under which the long-term care, housing and training of the animal will occur.

This important review will help veterinary medical care providers as well as pet owners make informed decisions. Who could ask for more?

Larry S. Katz, PhD
Associate Professor and Chair
Animal Sciences
Rutgers University
New Brunswick, NJ 08901

INTRODUCTION
Dog owners in America are frequently advised to spay/neuter their dogs for health reasons. A number of health benefits are cited, yet evidence is usually not cited to support the alleged health benefits.

When discussing the health impacts of spay/neuter, health risks are often not mentioned. At times, some risks are mentioned, but the most severe risks usually are not.

This article is an attempt to summarize the long-term health risks and benefits associated with spay/neuter in dogs that can be found in the veterinary medical literature. This article will not discuss the impact of spay/neuter on population control, or the impact of spay/neuter on behavior.

Nearly all of the health risks and benefits summarized in this article are findings from retrospective epidemiological research studies of dogs, which examine potential associations by looking backwards in time. A few are from prospective research studies, which examine potential associations by looking forward in time.

SUMMARY
An objective reading of the veterinary medical literature reveals a complex situation with respect to the long-term health risks and benefits associated with spay/neuter in dogs. The evidence shows that spay/neuter correlates with both positive AND adverse health effects in dogs. It also suggests how much we really do not yet understand about this subject.

On balance, it appears that no compelling case can be made for neutering most male dogs, especially immature male dogs, in order to prevent future health problems. The number of health problems associated with neutering may exceed the associated health benefits in most cases.
On the positive side, neutering male dogs

eliminates the small risk (probably <1%) of dying from testicular cancer
reduces the risk of non-cancerous prostate disorders
reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
may possibly reduce the risk of diabetes (data inconclusive)

On the negative side, neutering male dogs

if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a common cancer in medium/large and larger breeds with a poor prognosis.
increases the risk of cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 1.6
triples the risk of hypothyroidism
increases the risk of progressive geriatric cognitive impairment
triples the risk of obesity, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems
quadruples the small risk (<0.6%) of prostate cancer
doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract cancers
increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations

For female dogs, the situation is more complex. The number of health benefits associated with spaying may exceed the associated health problems in some (not all) cases. On balance, whether spaying improves the odds of overall good health or degrades them probably depends on the age of the female dog and the relative risk of various diseases in the different breeds.

On the positive side, spaying female dogs

if done before 2.5 years of age, greatly reduces the risk of mammary tumors, the most common
malignant tumors in female dogs
nearly eliminates the risk of pyometra, which otherwise would affect about 23% of intact female
dogs; pyometra kills about 1% of intact female dogs
reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
removes the very small risk (_0.5%) from uterine, cervical, and ovarian tumors

On the negative side, spaying female dogs

if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a
common cancer in larger breeds with a poor prognosis
increases the risk of splenic hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 2.2 and cardiac hemangiosarcoma by
a factor of >5; this is a common cancer and major cause of death in some breeds
triples the risk of hypothyroidism
increases the risk of obesity by a factor of 1.6-2, a common health problem in dogs with many
associated health problems
causes urinary “spay incontinence” in 4-20% of female dogs
increases the risk of persistent or recurring urinary tract infections by a factor of 3-4
increases the risk of recessed vulva, vaginal dermatitis, and vaginitis, especially for female dogs
spayed before puberty
doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract tumors
increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations

One thing is clear – much of the spay/neuter information that is available to the public is unbalanced and contains claims that are exaggerated or unsupported by evidence. Rather than helping to educate pet owners, much of it has contributed to common misunderstandings about the health risks and benefits associated of spay/neuter in dogs.

The traditional spay/neuter age of six months as well as the modern practice of pediatric spay/neuter appear to predispose dogs to health risks that could otherwise be avoided by waiting until the dog is physically mature, or perhaps in the case of many male dogs, foregoing it altogether unless medically necessary.

The balance of long-term health risks and benefits of spay/neuter will vary from one dog to the next. Breed, age, and gender are variables that must be taken into consideration in conjunction with non-medical factors for each individual dog. Across-the-board recommendations for all pet dogs do not appear to be supportable from findings in the veterinary medical literature.

dog dr · Post by **dog dr** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 1:40 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:
The way I look at it, there are probably podiatrists that could deliver babies, but it is really a good idea for all concerned?

Not sure what your saying here....

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:06 pm

dog dr wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:
The way I look at it, there are probably podiatrists that could deliver babies, but it is really a good idea for all concerned?

Not sure what your saying here....

I am saying that reproductive science and endocrinology are specialized and there is a lot of information to be assimilated on a professional level. It is tough enough to gry to keep current without the vested and biased interests interfering. The default for most DVMs who are asked about spaying will be to follow the AVMA reccomendations. But, although the know the parts, many companion practice vets know very little about the science of animal reproduction. Like a foot specialist delivering a baby, which was a vague analogy, I agree.

Do you or would you treat a primate? Most of the DVMs we work with would refer to a specialist.

dog dr · Post by **dog dr** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:32 pm

yes, i would refer a primate to a specialist, becuase i havent recieved any training in primate medicine. and again, the key word in your post is MOST. i prefer to make my own judgements and recommendations based on my own experience, knowledge base, education, etc. to heck with the AVMA - as far as i am concerned they are being taken over by the animal rightists and elitists.

Dougb has made the best post on this subject. when i get asked about this i my clinic, i present as much info as i can, fact and personal experience, and let folks decide. i dont push them either way.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:46 pm

dog dr wrote:yes, i would refer a primate to a specialist, becuase i havent recieved any training in primate medicine. and again, the key word in your post is MOST. i prefer to make my own judgements and recommendations based on my own experience, knowledge base, education, etc. to heck with the AVMA - as far as i am concerned they are being taken over by the animal rightists and elitists.

Dougb has made the best post on this subject. when i get asked about this i my clinic, i present as much info as i can, fact and personal experience, and let folks decide. i dont push them either way.

Well, when FedEx drops off the stumptailed macaque, you'll know what needs to be done.

MOST is the most important concept, as you said and it is worth a little extra time for people to find a vet they are comfortable with.

dog dr · Post by **dog dr** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:10 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:
dog dr wrote:yes, i would refer a primate to a specialist, becuase i havent recieved any training in primate medicine. and again, the key word in your post is MOST. i prefer to make my own judgements and recommendations based on my own experience, knowledge base, education, etc. to heck with the AVMA - as far as i am concerned they are being taken over by the animal rightists and elitists.

Dougb has made the best post on this subject. when i get asked about this i my clinic, i present as much info as i can, fact and personal experience, and let folks decide. i dont push them either way.
Well, when FedEx drops off the stumptailed macaque, you'll know what needs to be done.

MOST is the most important concept, as you said and it is worth a little extra time for people to find a vet they are comfortable with.

NOPE, wont have a clue. and thats why i will send it back to another vet. BUT, ask me about your cat, dog, cow, horse, pig, sheep, goat or llama, maybe a few more species, and i can help you out. thats why i was so puzzled by your post. all vet students recieve plenty of training in canine physiology and endocrinology, so they have (or should have) the scientific background to provide a knowledgeable answer to a question about neutering. Will many of them stick with the earlier is better theory? sure. will some of them discuss pros and cons of both sides?? you bet. all i am asking is dont be so fast to lump all of us together as brainwashed, money hungry, dog food company devotees.

dog dr · Post by **dog dr** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:22 pm

GUNDOGS wrote:and ezzy i think you might have missed this..It's been estimated that up to 40% of dogs surrendered to animal shelters are pure breeds.

Breeding dogs ethically and conscientiously is a serious, difficult and sometimes heartbreaking business, not a quick and easy road to profit. It's definitely not something you want to enter into lightly.

Spaying our neutering your dog is one very real way in which you can help reduce the number of unwanted puppies and abandoned dogs, that sit sadly in city pounds and rescue centers all over the country.

Then there are the health benefits to your dog....

Spaying or neutering your pooch can increase his/her life expectancy by between 1 and 3 years! And pets who have been 'altered' or 'sterilized' (to use other common terms) have a minimal risk of reproductive order cancers and tumors.
Early spaying

In the United States, most dogs are spayed between 5 and 8 months of age. Many animal shelters and veterinarians are starting to spay female animals at a younger age, even at 2 months. This early spaying does not affect the growth rate, and there are no appreciable differences in skeletal, physical, or behavioral development between those animals spayed early than those spayed at a more traditional age. It must be remembered that younger animals may need different anesthetics and are more prone to hypothermia (lower than normal body temperature) during surgery. As long as procedures are modified to account for these differences, early neutering is very safe. In fact, animals spayed at a younger age often have faster recoveries than those spayed when they are older.

i got this off of a link as well, so like i said for every one that says dont one says its ok.....ruth

ruth it is a known, scientific fact that the sex hormones are required to close the growth plates. animals that dont have those hormones present at puberty will have comparatively longer "long bones", which will affect joint angles, stress forces, etc.

and I think mostpeople would agree, there is a big difference, generally speaking,in behavior between males that have testosterone bathing their brains and those that dont. same thing for females and estrogen. I have witnesse it in more than one species. not saying neutered or intact is better for hunting/working dogs, but there is difference.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:42 pm

I think MOST people will be able to find something written somewhere to support and validate what they already believe.

I also find it interesting that someone is beating the drum for early spay/neuter, but has already expressed their intent to breed a dog that they own.

I spay my girls, but on my schedule.

MATT4126 · Post by **MATT4126** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:51 pm

My GSP spayed at approx. 6 mos....2 years and 6 mos later blew out knee. CCL surgery and $3k later. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not. Next dog I will wait.

GUNDOGS · Post by **GUNDOGS** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:59 pm

Dogdr, my point of the post was to show that for every blog or link that says info or research that spaying early is not a good idea there is another one that says it is..thats why i said to take the advice of the person such as yourself and that acknowledged in your post that you base your advice on education, knowledge and experience..the vet is the only one who is seeing your dog as an individual (sex, breed, medical history ect)..the info shared on the internet is very general related and not always best for your dog or for your intentions as the owner..i would assume the OP is looking into the spaying because he does not intend to breed and brought this up to the vet who in turn recommended 6 months being an appropriate time for the dog to be spayed..my point was i have had many animals altered over the years with no issues, i have also assisted in spay/neutering surgeries and have great respect for what vets know and do so i just dont think its wise to avoid the recommendation of a vet ( one you know and trust)..there were almost 60 million dogs altered last year so its a very common surgery and like anything there can be pro's and con's when you are talking huge numbers like that..like i said i think this forum has some very educated, knowledgeable,experienced, nice and informative people for sure when it comes to dog training and hunting ect but when it comes down to some issues i would listen to my vet..also im not sure in your post how you feel, you seem very neutral on the issue..i see you acknowledge the fact that an unaltered dog is different than an altered dog and i agree totally.......ruth

GUNDOGS · Post by **GUNDOGS** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:20 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:I think MOST people will be able to find something written somewhere to support and validate what they already believe.

I also find it interesting that someone is beating the drum for early spay/neuter, but has already expressed their intent to breed a dog that they own.

I spay my girls, but on my schedule.

Well cajun casey i am not beating the drum for early spay/neuter i have seen MANY pups spayed at all ages and have not heard a vet suggest waiting for 2 or more years EVER nor have i seen any negative effects from it.. i addressed the post that said his vet recommends to spay his dog at 6 months and he asked what others thought about that or if he should wait until 18 months like he had read on the internet..so i was commenting on the fact that he obviously has no intention to breed his dog..maybe he dont plan on showing it, titling it or maybe he just isnt interested in carrying on the blood lines or improving the breed or raising pups, or dealing with a bitch in heat who knows but its obviously not an interest to him..so if he has met with his vet and his vet recommends that age, my point was then the vet must not forsee a medical reason not to perform the surgery based on knowing the dog and its medical history so i would take his advice..and its not my intention to spay my pup because i am interested in titling her, showing her, and i think she is a very good example of the breed and very knowledgeable, respectable individuals have also expressed their opinions on her as well so i wont be spaying her for those reasons and to keep my options open.. but my 1 year old boxer is neutered, why because i was not breeding him and showing him ect so the pro's of neutering caused me to make that decision with the advice from my vet i had him neutered at 7 months..and i find it interesting you made comments regarding giving a bitch a shot to avoid a heat cycle yet you dont use the shot on your own dogs or you comment on parenting yet you acknowledge you dont like children.......ruth

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 5:03 pm

dog dr wrote:
GUNDOGS wrote:and ezzy i think you might have missed this..It's been estimated that up to 40% of dogs surrendered to animal shelters are pure breeds.

Breeding dogs ethically and conscientiously is a serious, difficult and sometimes heartbreaking business, not a quick and easy road to profit. It's definitely not something you want to enter into lightly.

Spaying our neutering your dog is one very real way in which you can help reduce the number of unwanted puppies and abandoned dogs, that sit sadly in city pounds and rescue centers all over the country.

Then there are the health benefits to your dog....

Spaying or neutering your pooch can increase his/her life expectancy by between 1 and 3 years! And pets who have been 'altered' or 'sterilized' (to use other common terms) have a minimal risk of reproductive order cancers and tumors.
Early spaying

In the United States, most dogs are spayed between 5 and 8 months of age. Many animal shelters and veterinarians are starting to spay female animals at a younger age, even at 2 months. This early spaying does not affect the growth rate, and there are no appreciable differences in skeletal, physical, or behavioral development between those animals spayed early than those spayed at a more traditional age. It must be remembered that younger animals may need different anesthetics and are more prone to hypothermia (lower than normal body temperature) during surgery. As long as procedures are modified to account for these differences, early neutering is very safe. In fact, animals spayed at a younger age often have faster recoveries than those spayed when they are older.

i got this off of a link as well, so like i said for every one that says dont one says its ok.....ruth

ruth it is a known, scientific fact that the sex hormones are required to close the growth plates. animals that dont have those hormones present at puberty will have comparatively longer "long bones", which will affect joint angles, stress forces, etc.

and I think mostpeople would agree, there is a big difference, generally speaking,in behavior between males that have testosterone bathing their brains and those that dont. same thing for females and estrogen. I have witnesse it in more than one species. not saying neutered or intact is better for hunting/working dogs, but there is difference.

I can tell you there is a BIG difference between dogs that people wait till the are mature before altering versus those that are done early
I had two females today I should have taken pictures of ..Coats are Horrible with spay fray one female her coat has wispy longer almost like hair makes her look almost like she has mange because the coat doesn't grow correctly the guy seriously regrets spaying early plus both females have the elongated femur bone. Then the other dog her coat her coat is like petting a wire bristle brush and NONE of the other littermates or siblings from prior litters have that nasty wire coat

We get a bunch of companion hunters who many have had their dogs altered young and I can tell real quick who was altered young as everyone has that elongated femur bones and some of the more active ones have been in for ACL surgeries

So when I speak to people who purchase pups from me..I suggest to them to please wait specially if they plan on hunting the dogs

Obesity
Elongated bones
incontinence in the females mostly where they need to take proin

Those are by far the most common things I see in I would have to say at least 80%+ of the altered dogs I get to see through out the year and PS I live and work on a pheasant preserve So I get to see a BUNCH of dogs labs retrievers Pointing breeds Flushers through out the year. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to really begin to see the difference when you get to see a bunch of dogs

taxidermy · Post by **taxidermy** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:02 pm

Here is my research ; I have raised about 100 setter pups , i tell everyone to wait to spay or neuter their pup tell they mature ,[9-18 months].
As far as i know and i get alot of pic and have talked to most of the people of my pups only one, was cut at 3-4 months ; that dog never did grow into his head[smaller body ] go figer , what's the chances only one dog out of 100???
btw i have the brother to that dog , both dogs are 9 yr old now. , his was the second biggest at 8 weeks mine was third, both dogs are healthy and good hunters just a body style difference from being altered too early ; all the other dogs look about the same except the spots, hair and running styles.

I think a lot of people just do not see the difference because they have nothing to compare to.

Brittlover · Post by **Brittlover** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:18 pm

kninebirddog wrote:I can tell you there is a BIG difference between dogs that people wait till the are mature before altering versus those that are done early
I had two females today I should have taken pictures of ..Coats are Horrible with spay fray one female her coat has wispy longer almost like hair makes her look almost like she has mange because the coat doesn't grow correctly the guy seriously regrets spaying early plus both females have the elongated femur bone. Then the other dog her coat her coat is like petting a wire bristle brush and NONE of the other littermates or siblings from prior litters have that nasty wire coat

I don't think "spay coat" is something that has to do with the age that the dog is spayed. I've met girls that have been spayed at all sorts of ages and their coats go weird. From a sheltie going almost bald (a very poofy dog before the spay) at the age of 5 to a GS that turned poodlish after her spay at the age of 7. Spaying ruins their coats, but from what I've seen, age doesn't have much to do with it.

We get a bunch of companion hunters who many have had their dogs altered young and I can tell real quick who was altered young as everyone has that elongated femur bones and some of the more active ones have been in for ACL surgeries

Yes the elogated limbs is part of early neutering, along with a larger chest. However, what age are you considering an "early neuter"?

Obesity
Elongated bones
incontinence in the females mostly where they need to take proin

The obesity thing I wonder about, because a spayed dog is usually a pet, as opposed to most intact dogs have to be kept in shape for sporting and/or showing. So is it really due to spay? Or because it's now living a sedentary life? Elongated bones I'm pretty sure only really affects pediatric spay/neuters. As for the incontinence, that's a side effect I have again seen in dogs that were spayed at older ages. In fact I have a gut feeling that it's caused by a vet screwing up more than anything else.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:48 am

YEs spay fray is with all of the dogs but dogs that are done young get it far worse with the coat change and the fray

the obesity..My female wasn't spayed till after 8 years old and I hunt her and after spay i have a real hard time keeping her weight down..I also have one that it hasn't change her weight at all she to was a after 5 year old spay
both have incontinence issues

I consider any altering before the dogs body has fully matured early

the elongated femur yes this is directly due to spaying before the growth plates have sealed.

My males that have been neutered later in life trialed they also require less food because they will gain weight faster then before they were neutered...So I do believe that obesity and for sure Not all but there are some weight issues because the altering affects the bodies metabolism thus the weight gain
again there are plenty of over fed under exercised dogs but it is amazing how those dogs that are altered appear here to be bigger then those that aren't with all other things seemingly the same from people who come here and hunt

GUNDOGS · Post by **GUNDOGS** » Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:06 am

You cannot simply link a dogs coat condition to spay/neutering whether its at 6 months or 1 year..there are SO many reasons their coat is dull or patchy or fuzzy ect..it could be the food they are being fed(especially something lacking in the diet), flea allergy, thyroid, worms, skin conditions, and so on..obesity only because of altering i dont think so, whether you neuter/spay or not if your dogs is fed a good diet and is adequately exercised and has NO medical issues it is not likely to just become obese because of altering..like i said im not soley for spay/neuter nor am i against it at any age, there are alot of variables to when and why you decide to do it..i dont have an issue with what anyone does with their own dog but when someone is thinking of waiting to alter their dog because of articles on the net or based on what others who already have it in their mind altering is not good for whatever reason i still say in the end listen very seriously to your vet..as for ACL injuries i have seen all kinds of dogs with these injuries its probably the most common injury in a dog especially the sporting/working dogs, i do know its not always altered animals with these issues..i had a 7 month old german shepard/rottie mix with 3rd grade hip displasia that i rescued and the vet said it was so bad it was not even worth the surgery so he was put down, he was not neutered yet, i had a 2 year old with pyometra because she had 3 litters already before i ended up with her, she almost died but made it threw and was spayed..the stories go on and on..the variables change dog to dog..now i see theres another post with a member on here that has booked a spay for her dog and may cancel it because of this thread, she believes her dog may have all kinds of medical problems if she alters her dog..there are 6 poodles in her area that come in and out of her yard and a strong chance the dog will become pregnant, if you are not putting the dog into a breeding program to bring something to the breed, not showing, not participating in events that would disqualify your dog if its altered, dont want to whelp pups because of the huge responsibility then i would think i would take the advice of the vet and spay rather than have more unwanted dogs, our pounds are full enough for this reason......ruth

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:18 am

Most of the dogs we see in breed rescue were created on purpose. That "prevent accidents" is just more Anti rhetoric and can be shoveled out to the compost bin.

As far as thyroid, the first question asked when investigating thyroid imbalances is if the dog is altered. Testosterone, adrenaline and thyroid function are interlinked. I've never had an intact dog with low thyroid, but I've lost two neutered males to Cushing's and one to adrenal cancer.

Brittlover · Post by **Brittlover** » Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:10 pm

GUNDOGS wrote:You cannot simply link a dogs coat condition to spay/neutering whether its at 6 months or 1 year..there are SO many reasons their coat is dull or patchy or fuzzy ect..it could be the food they are being fed(especially something lacking in the diet), flea allergy, thyroid, worms, skin conditions, and so on..obesity only because of altering i dont think so, whether you neuter/spay or not if your dogs is fed a good diet and is adequately exercised and has NO medical issues it is not likely to just become obese because of altering..

Most breeders I know fully accept the spay coat. The two I mentioned above even stated "look at her spay-coat, it's so horrible!" In both cases I mentioned above the dogs were breeding bitches that were spayed because they weren't to be bred any more. It seems to be a pretty common phenomena. As for kninebirddog's comment about it being worse if they're spayed early, about the only way to test that would to be to clone two dogs and spay one and not the other and see which has the worse coat. In fact I think this would be the only way that we could accurately prove whether early spay/neuter is good or bad.

like i said im not soley for spay/neuter nor am i against it at any age, there are alot of variables to when and why you decide to do it..i dont have an issue with what anyone does with their own dog but when someone is thinking of waiting to alter their dog because of articles on the net or based on what others who already have it in their mind altering is not good for whatever reason i still say in the end listen very seriously to your vet.

Point well taken, after all if you don't trust your vet, maybe it's time to find a different one.

.as for ACL injuries i have seen all kinds of dogs with these injuries its probably the most common injury in a dog especially the sporting/working dogs, i do know its not always altered animals with these issues..i had a 7 month old german shepard/rottie mix with 3rd grade hip displasia that i rescued and the vet said it was so bad it was not even worth the surgery so he was put down, he was not neutered yet, i had a 2 year old with pyometra because she had 3 litters already before i ended up with her, she almost died but made it threw and was spayed..the stories go on and on..the variables change dog to dog..now i see theres another post with a member on here that has booked a spay for her dog and may cancel it because of this thread, she believes her dog may have all kinds of medical problems if she alters her dog..there are 6 poodles in her area that come in and out of her yard and a strong chance the dog will become pregnant, if you are not putting the dog into a breeding program to bring something to the breed, not showing, not participating in events that would disqualify your dog if its altered, dont want to whelp pups because of the huge responsibility then i would think i would take the advice of the vet and spay rather than have more unwanted dogs, our pounds are full enough for this reason......ruth

I've spayed/neutered many a dog at the 6-9 month of age with no medical problems. The incontinence issue seems to have numbers that range from 1%-20% depending on what you read. Out of all of the spayed dogs I know, I have met one that suffers from this and she was spayed late in life (the sheltie I mentioned earlier). Here's a link to a UK vet that seems pretty honest both ways.
http://www.oaktreevet.co.uk/Pages/leafl ... %20dog.htm

That being said, I'll give you a few things I've seen dogs do to mate. My brother thought that sticking his lab in a "coyote proof" chicken coop would keep her safe, we found a Chihuahua 5' up the fence and heading for the top. We stopped that one but were unable to stop the lab/neuf cross that just ripped the fencing open. My sister kept her dog in a fully enclosed kennel with chicken wire under the gravel on the bottom. The neighbors dog dug under 5 fences to get to her and it seems that although it was impossible for sis' girl to dig out, digging from the outside and pushing the chicken wire up worked just fine. In another case of "my dogs fine because she's kenneled" a friends girl backed right up to the chain link fence and they bred with the fence between them. Dogs are very ingenious when it comes to mating.

mister2 · Post by **mister2** » Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:05 pm

Are there any negative behavioral or mental side effects to waiting until after 1 year to neuter males? Do they know they're gone? Any loss of drive or desire to hunt? I have heard of friends dogs who were neutered after 1-2yrs and they say their dogs just aren't the same anymore with less desire to hunt. Their dogs also gained weight. Just wanted to know if this is a common thing.

Do females really attract a lot of attention when they go in heat? Will they run off looking for action?

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:47 pm

Females and males have a tremendous urge to mate. They will both wander. If you have them kenneled it isn't a big deal, but if you let them out in the back yard to do their business, they will jump a fence. You want to wait until around 1.5-2years. Let the growth plates close.

I have never seen a dog lose interest in hunting after having them fixed. Male or female. As far as gaining weight, that is a blessing. You can feed them less.

It really makes your life easier if you don't want to breed.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sun Mar 27, 2011 5:22 pm

GUNDOGS wrote:You cannot simply link a dogs coat condition to spay/neutering whether its at 6 months or 1 year..there are SO many reasons their coat is dull or patchy or fuzzy ect..it could be the food they are being fed(especially something lacking in the diet), flea allergy, thyroid, worms, skin conditions, and so on..obesity only because of altering i dont think so, whether you neuter/spay or not if your dogs is fed a good diet and is adequately exercised and has NO medical issues it is not likely to just become obese because of altering..like i said im not soley for spay/neuter nor am i against it at any age, there are alot of variables to when and why you decide to do it..i dont have an issue with what anyone does with their own dog but when someone is thinking of waiting to alter their dog because of articles on the net or based on what others who already have it in their mind altering is not good for whatever reason i still say in the end listen very seriously to your vet..as for ACL injuries i have seen all kinds of dogs with these injuries its probably the most common injury in a dog especially the sporting/working dogs, i do know its not always altered animals with these issues..i had a 7 month old german shepard/rottie mix with 3rd grade hip displasia that i rescued and the vet said it was so bad it was not even worth the surgery so he was put down, he was not neutered yet, i had a 2 year old with pyometra because she had 3 litters already before i ended up with her, she almost died but made it threw and was spayed..the stories go on and on..the variables change dog to dog..now i see theres another post with a member on here that has booked a spay for her dog and may cancel it because of this thread, she believes her dog may have all kinds of medical problems if she alters her dog..there are 6 poodles in her area that come in and out of her yard and a strong chance the dog will become pregnant, if you are not putting the dog into a breeding program to bring something to the breed, not showing, not participating in events that would disqualify your dog if its altered, dont want to whelp pups because of the huge responsibility then i would think i would take the advice of the vet and spay rather than have more unwanted dogs, our pounds are full enough for this reason......ruth

When you know what you are looking at and you know the dog before and after Yes you can determine what altering did to the dog I have personally seen the affects on dogs that are my personal dogs over the years and didn't care for it

If a person is planning on having an ACTIVE dog then delaying the altering till the dog is fully mature is a good thing.

And sure if you can't be responsible and contain the dog while it is in heat then yes better have it spayed if you don't want the responsibility But I know PLENTY of dogs that are intact and the owners are smart enough and responsible enough to get their dogs through a heat cycle with out it getting bred.

So I will go off of what I see personally along with the research that is being done because maybe some medical person did notice a higher incidence of dogs having ACL surgeries and paid attention to details ..and not made stuff up.
If you just have a house pet and it sits on the couch and goes in the back yard for a few hours a day ,.then go ahead and alter it.

Just be smart about it

taxidermy · Post by **taxidermy** » Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:27 pm

I think 7+ post on trying to make us believe altering a dog at a young age is best is enough, jesssss, state your op. and move on!!!
why argue with someone else OP. .

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:13 pm

taxidermy wrote:I think 7+ post on trying to make us believe altering a dog at a young age is best is enough, jesssss, state your op. and move on!!!
why argue with someone else OP. .

You are right! There is no point in arguing a point with someone not willing to listen to what experience has taught so many of us. When it is a choice between unwanted pups or possibly the well being of your dog and the thousands of dollars you may spend and the choice you make is the one that management can eliminate easily wins you might as well hang it up. It will be a few years but they will learn too even though it may be a costly lesson. But for some that is the only way.

Ezzy

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:18 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
taxidermy wrote:I think 7+ post on trying to make us believe altering a dog at a young age is best is enough, jesssss, state your op. and move on!!!
why argue with someone else OP. .
You are right! There is no point in arguing a point with someone not willing to listen to what experience has taught so many of us. When it is a choice between unwanted pups or possibly the well being of your dog and the thousands of dollars you may spend and the choice you make is the one that management can eliminate easily wins you might as well hang it up. It will be a few years but they will learn too even though it may be a costly lesson. But for some that is the only way.

Ezzy

So true!

Charlie

GUNDOGS · Post by **GUNDOGS** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:51 am

ezzy333 wrote:
taxidermy wrote:I think 7+ post on trying to make us believe altering a dog at a young age is best is enough, jesssss, state your op. and move on!!!
why argue with someone else OP. .
You are right! There is no point in arguing a point with someone not willing to listen to what experience has taught so many of us. When it is a choice between unwanted pups or possibly the well being of your dog and the thousands of dollars you may spend and the choice you make is the one that management can eliminate easily wins you might as well hang it up. It will be a few years but they will learn too even though it may be a costly lesson. But for some that is the only way.

Ezzy

Well good to see you agree with taxidermy ezzy, so when ANYONE states their op on a thread and someone posts that we are wrong dont post again or if someone posts info we dont agree with and weve already stated an op dont post again..how many posts did you make on the trialing thread restating your op or on dog food threads restating your op? glad to see you agree to make your op and move on :roll: ..and i notice taxidermy you didnt mention the fact that knine posted as much as i did on the other sides of the issue because you agree with her..hmm...ruth

taxidermy · Post by **taxidermy** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:45 pm

hope this will calm you down a bit!!!!

> First-year students at the Vet School were attending their first anatomy
> class, with a real dead cow. They all gathered around the surgery table
> with the body covered with a white sheet.
>
> The professor started the class by telling them, "In Veterinary medicine
> it is necessary to have two important qualities as a doctor: the first
> is that you not be disgusted by anything involving the animal body". For
> an example, the Professor pulled back the sheet, stuck his finger in the
> butt of the dead cow, withdrew it and stuck his finger in his mouth. "Go
> ahead and do the same thing," he told his students.
>
> The students freaked out, hesitated for several minutes, but eventually
> took turns sticking a finger in the butt of the dead cow and sucking on
> it.
>
> When everyone finished, the Professor looked at them and said, "the
> second most important quality is observation. I stuck in my middle
> finger and sucked on my index finger. Now learn to pay attention. Life's
> tough, but it's even tougher if you're stupid.."

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:47 pm

Brittlover · Post by **Brittlover** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:47 pm

mister2 wrote:Are there any negative behavioral or mental side effects to waiting until after 1 year to neuter males? Do they know they're gone? Any loss of drive or desire to hunt? I have heard of friends dogs who were neutered after 1-2yrs and they say their dogs just aren't the same anymore with less desire to hunt. Their dogs also gained weight. Just wanted to know if this is a common thing.

Do females really attract a lot of attention when they go in heat? Will they run off looking for action?

The only behavioural/mental issues I've seen are the lack of what is promised. Sage was neutered because he was too high strung and they wanted to calm him down (Field Brittany in a pet home), it didn't work. People are told that neutering an aggressive dog will calm it down, I've never seen it work. Now a dog that is neutered in the 6-9 month range will be calmer and less aggressive if you are worried about that, but once the problems are there, spay/neutering isn't going to help.

Oh and no it doesn't reduce the desire to hunt, At 10 Sage can out run 90% of the dogs out there, In his younger years he would out hunt my husband to the point that hubby was pretty much letting the dog drag him out of the bush. The obesity thing, I'm still not sure about. If the numbers came from just taking a broad look at dogs that are neutered compared to not neutered, then you have to look at the fact that most spayed dogs are couch potato pets, whereas most intact dogs are either showing or sporting. If it is true that a spayed dog is more prone to obesity, then cut back the food a bit and run her a bit more.

And yes, females really do attract a lot of attention, and given the choice they'll go looking. Dogs don't have human moral issues regarding sex, they want it and they're going to get it.

markj · Post by **markj** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:18 pm

on what age to spay?

I was 24 when I had my first dog spayed