Hunt test question

Dirtysteve · Post by **Dirtysteve** » Mon May 22, 2006 2:17 pm

In a hunt test for a senior hunter is the dog required to stand through the shot until released or can it break on the shot?

NDBDHunter · Post by **NDBDHunter** » Mon May 22, 2006 2:21 pm

I believe they can break at the shot. Steady to wing is all that the standard calls for.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Mon May 22, 2006 3:18 pm

In SH the dog can break on the shot, not before on point. The dog is required to "acknowledge" a pointed brace mate but can be whoa-ed t that point (tricky depending on the judge). After that, the dog can and should be collared through the bracemate's birdwork. If time is short and your dog doesn't have bird work, it's a good idea to ask the judges if you can go look for a bird.

Best,

original mngsp · Post by **original mngsp** » Mon May 22, 2006 3:34 pm

Greg

If time is short and your dog doesn't have bird work, it's a good idea to ask the judges if you can go look for a bird.

Shouldn't a hunting dog be looking for birds just about the whole time they are on the ground? I know what you mean though.

I wanted to let you know I scratched my entries for this weekend's GSPC of MN trial and won't be making it there. I was looking forward to seeing you there but I'm sure we'll run into each other again sometime. Our Fall FT will be there too.

gundogguru · Post by **gundogguru** » Mon May 22, 2006 5:05 pm

This is a hard part as a judge the dog must "acknowledge" its brace mate. if the dog doesn't and the handler whoa's the dog the dog will not pass. And yes if the pointing dog takes to long to make the retrieve you can ask the judge to hunt on. The dog can break at the shot in senior. Senior is one of the hardest levels to judge in my opinion.

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Mon May 22, 2006 10:46 pm

gundogguru wrote:This is a hard part as a judge the dog must "acknowledge" its brace mate. if the dog doesn't and the handler whoa's the dog the dog will not pass.

Funny you state this in the way you do. I watched a SH brace this Spring where the handler Whoa'd his dog with the dog facing away from the dog on point...........and passed...............

The joke of the day was about the dog that honored backa$$wards

ohiogsp · Post by **ohiogsp** » Mon May 22, 2006 11:29 pm

The handler was probably friends with the judge or from the same club. That is why you can't get all your legs from the same judge. Sorry, to say it but I have seen it first hand.

original mngsp · Post by **original mngsp** » Tue May 23, 2006 5:08 am

The handler might have been friends with the judge but more than likely it was a poor judge that passes just about anything. It is generally much easier to pass a HT now than it was 10 years ago, especially in the MH level. As a handler it's a good problem to have but as a person that looks at the bigger picture it is disappointing.

There also appears to be a difference in judging based upon regional differences. I know of people that will make the drive to a certain local just because it is easier to pass a dog.

This is a hard part as a judge the dog must "acknowledge" its brace mate. if the dog doesn't and the handler whoa's the dog the dog will not pass. And yes if the pointing dog takes to long to make the retrieve you can ask the judge to hunt on. The dog can break at the shot in senior. Senior is one of the hardest levels to judge in my opinion.

Yes, I agree SH is the hardest to judge. Seems like all kind of strange things seem to happen in the SH level that aren't spelled out in the rule book. Here is where we as judges must use common sense and try to relate what happens to a HUNTING situation. The "acknowledment" can be a sticky point. This can occur because the handler who works with this dog daily should know the way the dog behaves, acts, and "acknowledges" but us as a judge might only be seeing this dog for the first and only times in our lives and aren't aware of it's subtle behaviors.

snips · Post by **snips** » Tue May 23, 2006 5:57 am

I train my dogs to stand thru a gunshot for Sr level because if you have a find on the backcourse you must shoot your blank pistol, and I do not want my dog breaking after a live flying bird. I see people shooting off their blank in the birdfield before the gunners shoot because their dog is not steady.

We have a judge in our area that tells handlers to holster their blank pistol in the birdfield because of this.

Post by **Ayres** » Tue May 23, 2006 10:46 am

Seems like SH would be the hardest to judge. There are so many variables. In MH it's pretty cut and dry - first time the dog doesn't do something it fails. In JH it's pretty easy too - give the dog every chance to succeed and if it does an ok job then it passes.

I, like Brenda, train Steady to wing and shot - and fall - for senior hunter. My dog goes and retrieves when I tell him to. If the bird doesn't get hit, my dog isn't breaking after a live bird on the gunfire. If the bird flies away, I can swing Justus the other direction to avoid a delayed chase. STW&S surely doesn't hurt at the SH level, especially if you're ultimately training for Master.

original mngsp · Post by **original mngsp** » Tue May 23, 2006 2:14 pm

Train for master to test for Senior is the only way to go. Anyone that trains for SH will not have good results. You see this as a judge over and over.

Training for MH and running senior is very helpful with most dogs as you can talk them through bad situations that you couldn't in Master. It's also an easier level as a novice or intermiediate handler. We all talk when we hunt and train, to go to MH and all of a sudden have to bite your tongue is a strange situation for most dogs and handlers moving up the ladder.

Steven,
Just curious if you were up at the North Star Weim test in Bloomer, WI last fall?

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Tue May 23, 2006 2:21 pm

I have to disagree with this statement:

give the dog every chance to succeed and if it does an ok job then it passes.

I attended a hunt test recently for a JH leg, and my dog did not receive a score for bird finding or pointing. My dog pointed once on a bird, she gave chase, bird flushed, I fired pistol, dog caught bird and promptly retrieved to hand. Dog kept running and retrieved a VERY dead bird to hand. I asked judge where they wanted the birds. Now, how in the H-E-double-hockey-sticks did I not get at least some score for bird finding? MAYBE the point was not for 3-seconds. It was CLOSE.

You wanna talk about ticked. :shock: :shock: :shock:

Post by **pear** » Tue May 23, 2006 2:46 pm

Buckeye, where did all these quotes come from, I looked the thread over and can't find them anywhere?.........I must be over looking them..."pear"

Post by **Ayres** » Tue May 23, 2006 5:06 pm

Pear - The quote tags were messed up. I edited the post (hope that was ok Buckeye) to correct them. Now it reads correctly.

Buckeye -

Sorry to hear about your experience like that. From your telling I'd say your dog showed a lot of natural ability and should have passed. I'm just going to assume that the judge didn't see it for whatever reason, or saw something else. But I think most judges help out to make the dogs succeed rather than look for them to fail at the JH level. Just sounds like you caught a bad break.

Post by **pear** » Tue May 23, 2006 5:14 pm

WOW now that makes sense......."pear"

original mngsp · Post by **original mngsp** » Tue May 23, 2006 7:24 pm

I attended a hunt test recently for a JH leg, and my dog did not receive a score for bird finding or pointing. My dog pointed once on a bird, she gave chase, bird flushed, I fired pistol, dog caught bird and promptly retrieved to hand. Dog kept running and retrieved a VERY dead bird to hand. I asked judge where they wanted the birds. Now, how in the H-E-double-hockey-sticks did I not get at least some score for bird finding? MAYBE the point was not for 3-seconds. It was CLOSE.

Buckeye

I wasn't there so I can't pass judgement on what happened to you. Different judges always tend to read the rules according to thier own experiences. JH shouldn't be an easy of a test as it is percieved to be. What I'm about to say doesn't insinuate that your dog falls into this category, as I mentioned I didn't see it. But what I often see is the perception that one pointed bird, no matter the quality of the find, or the dogs hunt, will qualify the dog. This is so untrue. The main item that people have problems with is choosing to ignore the " Bold and Independent" part of the rule book. It is true we all have different ideals as far as the range we want our dogs to hunt at. A big shooting dog range from horseback isn't what most grouse hunters want in the woods. But even in the grouse woods " Bold and Independent" is important. If a dog points the first bird and procedes to bump up the next 5 should it recieve a qualifying score? Not in my book.

The JH title now unfortunately has almost become the endall for showbread dogs to show they have "field experience". I comend the owners and/or breeders for getting these dogs out to prove they have some bird sense and hunt. But what I preffer to see is a JH dog and/or handler that are testing in JH just to see how the training is coming along or for experience and/or exposure with the intentions of advancing thier training and handling skills.

I wish the AKC would put an age limit similar to what they do in the Derby stakes ( 24 months) on JH dogs. As a judge I am much more prone to give the benefit of the doubt to a young good hunting dog than a 6 yr old show dog going after a "field" title. Is this fair and unbiased? Probably not, but I want to continue to see these titels be EARNED and mean something!!

Post by **Ayres** » Tue May 23, 2006 9:47 pm

original mngsp wrote:I wish the AKC would put an age limit similar to what they do in the Derby stakes ( 24 months) on JH dogs.

I understand the reasoning but I don't quite agree with this statement. I know a guy who just got into hunt testing this spring; he was a completely new to the HT scene, and brought three dogs - two of which were just around a year old, but one of which was his hunting partner of eight years. He ran all three in JH before moving on. In such an instance, an exception needs to be made for new handlers regardless of the dog's age.

His dogs passed with flying colors as he earned experience in the HT field.

But with that said, I do echo the sentiments about the strictly show people putting on a JH title as a large field accomplishment. The JH, as I see it, is for a young dog's and/or new handler's experience building. It's not a bad thing, but it should be looked on as a stepping stone to higher levels of training and testing.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed May 24, 2006 6:28 am

Hey guys,

Are you sure someone that is running hunt test with a dog they show is just interested in strictly showing? Seems to me they must be interested in hunt testing also or they wouldn't be there. I always wanted at least a few show points on my hunting or trial dogs so people would know they met the standard of the breed. That qualified me as interested in both aspects of dog breeding I thought.

For discussion sake explain why there should be an age factor figured into any test?

Should not an owner of a dog be able to run tests, field trials, or showing without having to swear what their motavation is for doing so?

And shouldn't we applaud everyone that is doing things with their dogs, no matter motive or age, that demonstrates the abilities of their dogs instead of leaving them in a kennel or tied under the tree?

Ezzy

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Wed May 24, 2006 7:33 am

My point was that my experience at a JH Hunt test was not one of the judge giving my dog the opportunity. I believe my dog was not judged fairly. My dog comes from FT stock and particularly her sire was one of the biggest running V's out there. She ran the tree lines first and then the bird field. So was she bold? You bet. Did she point? You bet. Did she find birds? You bet. AND she retrieved to hand, which many JH dogs do not do.

Now, did I expect a pass for just running? No. I felt I was unfairly judged and that the judge did a poor job overall of communicating anything at all. All I was told was: "turn em' loose" and "Thank you" when it was over. They were too busy trying to find my bracemate's dog. Anyhow.............. We will go to some more and hopefully get a fair shake. I'll make sure I do not go to another test/trial where those judges are judging.

I also disagree with the idea for age restrictions. My dog is going on 3 years old and she has not had much formal bird training yet. She got half of her conformation points before she was spayed, so she isn't quite a show ring dog trying to get some field experience. We are just late to the game. :roll:

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed May 24, 2006 8:47 am

Buckeye,

It sounds like you weren't judge real fairly but don't quit. I agree that there is a lack of information from the judges that could really help the novice at least. Seems to be a human characteristic though, we get to busy or think we are to stop and do the things that are really important. As I get older I notice all of these things that I was quilty of too. Wish there was something a person could do or say that would help people understand and change the approach that they take. Oh well, age may do it for them too.

Ezzy

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Wed May 24, 2006 9:51 am

My experience was, however, a learning experience (no matter how frustrating). I will go to more hunt tests. I will go to field trials. I also will remember how I was treated my first time and use that as a tool for when I become a judge (which I plan to do this winter). I will talk to the handlers. Ask questions and give information.

I did not mean to hijack this thread. My apologies.

Post by **Ayres** » Wed May 24, 2006 11:02 am

Ezzy, I agree that there shouldn't be an age limit. There are too many situations where an owner/handler and a dog should be excepted that there would be no way to fairly write the rule.

As for people dipping their toes into other venues, I'm all for that too. What I do get frustrated with, though, is when people claim that a dog has all this field ability, for breeding sake, based upon nothing more than a JH title. In my eyes, and for what I want, it takes more than a JH title.

Think of it this way... if someone was wanting a show-quality brittany, they'd want parents with championships - not just points. For me, wanting a field-quality dog, I want a SH, MH or FC - not just a JH. Yes, a JH legitimizes a show line dog as having some natural ability, but it's not yet proven in the field in my opinion, not without some other factors such as a breeder who consistently puts out dual quality dogs, or a breeder that just hasn't gotten a SH or MH on the dog yet but will eventually.

Everyone can have a different opinion on this and I'm certainly not claiming mine as fact, but I'm just expressing what I look for in a dog and what makes more of an impression on me.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Wed May 24, 2006 11:21 am

original gsp is a hunt test/hunting/field guy through and through. i don't think he is saying don't dip your toes in. actually, he is one of those out there encouraging people to do just that. but rather, that is what a JH is, dipping toes, go on and show you have a field dog by at least getting that SH. like an NA on a NAVHDA dog. ok, it can point, now can it take some training, learn to retrieve, show that it has some real stuff, before we start to breed to it and make more like it.

Maverick · Post by **Maverick** » Wed May 24, 2006 12:39 pm

Hey Buckeye_V,

Don't be discouraged. A non passing score is just one judges opinion on that given day. There are a wide variety of judges out there, some much better then others.
I know of a few judges up here in my neck of the woods that I would rather get a lower passing score from then a much higher score from a few others.
I know that a few of the judges mark all dogs equally and truely love watching dogs work.
I have seen judges that prefer long tails over docked or the opposite or some judges seem to flat out prefer specific breeds and the marks reflect that. Is it wrong? Yep. I can't do much about it so I run my dogs and have a good day.
I am glad to hear you are going back out. A little check cord work to perhaps remind the dog to hold the point longer and away you go.
The only other suggestion I have for all getting involved with Hunt Tests is to vollenteer at the test for the clubs. Plant birds, do the gunning and just stay invloved. Watch the handlers and the judges out their and learn. Listen to the judges talking to the handlers and listen to the more veteran handlers as well.
Take whatever lessons you can from this and apply it to your self and your own training.

Mav.....

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Wed May 24, 2006 1:07 pm

10-4

original mngsp · Post by **original mngsp** » Wed May 24, 2006 2:27 pm

As for people dipping their toes into other venues, I'm all for that too. What I do get frustrated with, though, is when people claim that a dog has all this field ability, for breeding sake, based upon nothing more than a JH title. In my eyes, and for what I want, it takes more than a JH title.

Bingo!! That is why I may developed my bias on the JH test. When it is used and promoted properly, as an introduction for dogs and handlers to the AKC testing program, and the have these dogs and handlers advance that is great!

I do advocate people trying other venues for thier dog, be it NSTRA, NAVHDA, Agility, or Conformation. Heck throw flyball in there too. I guess I just hear so much bad mouthing from one camp regarding another without any first hand knowledge of the work that is involved in achieving success.

We will go to some more and hopefully get a fair shake. I'll make sure I do not go to another test/trial where those judges are judging.

Buckeye, I like your attitude! Most judges are good judges or they don't get asked to judge again. I have a mental notebook af a handful of judges I will not run dogs under myself. The worst thing in the world is a negative judge that wants to toss dogs for anything. Positivity is the key. Don't always hook up a dog for a minor infraction, you might miss a piece of genius that would follow.