Stupid question

[baileydog2007]

Im sure Ill get blasted for this and called everything under the sun, but Im asking anyways. I have done some research and have an idea, but it doesnt make sense to have 2 different "names" if I understand it. English Setters and Llewelin Setters. Whats the difference? And some of the prefixes attached, Ryman, Old Hemlock?? All just "lines" of the established breed? Sorry for my ignorance. Thanks

[birddogger]

That is not a stupid question at all. It should be an educational thread.

Charlie

[kninebirddog]

I don't have my book handy in front of me about the modern setter copy right 1923 But I wasn't uncommon for lines of setters to be referred to as a breed as back in the day it was kinda a way to know who and where a dog was from

The South Esk was a basically a gene pool of setters in the South Esk area Or the Statter setters were setters that the Statters had where they lived. It was different back pre 1900's since there wasn't the ease of getting dogs that there is today. the Llewellyn Setter is known as an American line of setters if you ask any one from the other side of the pond.

[jimssetters]

Sooner or later shouldnt they be the same breed? Going to Memphis next month, hope to see the old time greats that started the breed. Do the allow cameras?

[markj]

Sooner or later shouldnt they be the same breed?

Not at all, is like cattle, you have holsteins which are for milk as they produce a lot, angus is a beef cow, produces better steak. This is very simplified as there are a lot more than that to the thing. Like a quarter horse vs a Arabian hope that helps you understand it

[Sue]

Llews are a subset of English. All Llews are English setters, but only some English are Llews.

Llews are registered in the FDSB as their own breed, DNA tested.


The term "llewellin" has been used in the vernacular to indicate English setters from hunting lines, although as you know there are other types of hunting (rather than showing) English setters, such as the lines you mention.

Many of the earlier Llewellins were tricolors as well as smaller than "bench" setters, so some people started using the term for tricolor hunting setters.

Thus a lot of confusing.

But on a technical basis, at this point, a Llewellin is a FDSB registered dog, DNA traced for ancestry, back to when they started doing DNA testing, which was not long ago, but the overall idea is this subset of English setter goes back to its founding few dogs about 100 years ago. For the details, ask Phoenix.

[settergal83]

This is actually a bit more complicated than the Llewellin being a subset from the English. To be quite honest, alot of the history is muddied. I would genuinely encourage you to go to http://shoeleatherllewellins.com. This man was my mentor and probably has the greatest knowledge of these dogs of anyone I have ever met. I could sit here all day copying and pasting the information and putting in the foot notes for his site to here but the truth is, I really don't want to (LOL). If there are more questions to which you would like answered specifically on the breed... well I'd suggest contacting him but the history he has posted right there on his website is better than anywhere I've found yet. At Any rate I hope this satisfies your question.

One thing that I will point out is that a Llewellin bred to an English is always going to remain an English..not matter how many times you breed back to a Llewellin.

[Sue]

Yes, I would second the sentiment that Joe is someone to ask if you want all the complexities. He has made a lifetime study of the Llewellin breed.

Just one note of caution if you choose to delve into all this very far. You'll find the world of Llewellin breeders to have some conflicts, disagreements and divisions. It's easy to get caught in the crossfire.

[settergal83]

I totally agree Sue. Part of the reason I am just "doing my own thing" so to speak. It seems to me that instead of helping the breed as we all should, we spend more time pointing fingers, making accusations and just down right being rude! I have always been one that keeps an open mind and feels everyone has a right to his or her opinion and while it might not be what I believe, they are welcome to share their thoughts. But it seems that, especially with the Llewellin Setter breeders, it's a competition as to who can be "right". I would then ask what is right? And if it is "right" for you does that mean it is right for all?? What happened to people wanting to actually wanting to help each other progress as dog owners, hunters and breeders??

I have my dogs and they are happy healthy little dogs with lots of excitement in the field...They are what they are. And I am who I am...maybe that's why I do disagree with some of the things I have seen/heard done to dogs. Does that mean I should report someone for animal abuse or call them up yelling and screaming at them or slander them on a public website?? I don't think so. But again, jmho.