Field trials and walking events

Post by **Sharon** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 7:28 pm

volraider wrote:If you want to increase entries and grow the sport, then you should be having a hunting dog stake during each trial where judging stops with the flush of the bird. You would pick up a lot of entries and once people get a taste then they would eventually move on to broke dog stakes or at least you would think they would. This hunting dog stake would get a trophies and would not be sanctioned.

We started that 2 years ago. Rules were changed to accomodate dogs not broke to the flush/shot. It went over very well except that stake was put at the end of the day ( not my idea), so those handlers were sitting around all day , not happy and by that last stake almost everyone else had gone home. If you want to hold on to newbies, you have to work things around them , not tradition.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 8:08 pm

slistoe wrote:
ACooper wrote:
That is what he is saying, to add an additional walking state to an existing HB trial, instead of holding a separate event. Good idea.
Only a good idea if you are having trouble filling entries in the stakes already offered. If the trial normally fills up with the # of dogs that can be run in available daylight then adding another stake means cutting folks out of the already offered stakes.

Yep you're right making the sport accessible to more people, is not a good idea.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 8:13 pm

Definitely don't want to cause anyone not getting to run in another horseback stake just so some one can run a dog on foot. What are you all thinking anyway? :roll:

Ezzy

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 8:44 pm

Ok all you FT engineers.

Becky and I run a FT the last weekend in Sept, or first weekend in Oct depending how the calendar falls. The event is held 30 miles south of Duluth/Superior. In a two day FT, you are going to be packed full in daylight hours with an entry of 76 dogs. Of course that would vary depending on the breakout of juvenile stakes and senior stakes...but for all practical purposes 76 is the number. Now if I get 76 dogs looking for AKC points, where in these daylight hours are we gonna find time to run a non-regular stake?

Oh two courses you say? Sure, if we had the help to run two course, and the judges for the other course. Add another day and take some more AKC dogs, yet allowing time for the non-reg stake? Yeah getting those people to agree to judge on Friday is always an easy task, and yeah the help is easy get too. :roll:

Post by **Sharon** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:10 pm

I hear you. Unfortunately we are a small club up here in Ontario so can easily work in other things.

shags · Post by **shags** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:19 am

ACooper wrote:Yep you're right making the sport accessible to more people, is not a good idea.

The best way to institute walking points or nonregular stakes is to pick up the phone and say 'OK, Mr/Mrs FT Chairman, I volunteer to organize and take care of all the details of this stake that so many folks are interested in. I will line up judges, I will find an empty course suitable for walkers, and I will make sure all participants are there ready to run at the appointed time. I will also band the birds and plant the course myself or find someone to do it. I will order or shop for prizes, and take care of the judges' gifts. You won't need to worry about a thing!'

Post by **slistoe** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:28 am

ACooper wrote:
slistoe wrote:
ACooper wrote:
That is what he is saying, to add an additional walking state to an existing HB trial, instead of holding a separate event. Good idea.
Only a good idea if you are having trouble filling entries in the stakes already offered. If the trial normally fills up with the # of dogs that can be run in available daylight then adding another stake means cutting folks out of the already offered stakes.

Yep you're right making the sport accessible to more people, is not a good idea.

Not that is just plain stupid comment. If the trial is FULL then where and how do you run another stake? And if the trial is FULL, how does canceling one already filled with entries stake so that you can hold a different stake that may or may not fill up make more accessibility? Welfare mentality is what that is.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:55 am

No one ever said ypu hVe to do it. Were just presenting options. Also if you want us to figure out how you can add a Amature walking stake we would kinda need more details.

76 dogs and what's stakes are offered? Do you want to limit entries , how many courses, etc. If you only have two judges you are stuck... if you have 6 judges for the weekend you can easily make it work if they want to. When you say its impossible then you won't ever make it happen and I guess if that's what you want it would be just fine.

Gordon Guy · Post by **Gordon Guy** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 8:41 am

Wenaha wrote:
I am president of the Northwest Region (CA, OR, WA, ID, NV) of US Complete Shooting Dog Assn. (USCSDA). We have held about 6-8 walking trials every season in CA. We would welcome a club to begin running these stakes in the other states.

These are all walking shooting dog trials run under rules nearly identical to the AFTCA. Placements and CH are with AFTCA and AF. These are both open and amateur broke stakes and require a classy shooting dog race to win.

You can PM me if you like, and we can get in touch.

http://uscomplete-nw.blogspot.com/

Sir, I'm familiar with your website/Blog and I was on there again the other day, I will send you a PM.

Gordon Guy · Post by **Gordon Guy** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:09 am

DGFavor wrote:
Now that I live in Idaho
Don't make too many long term plans...we still haven't voted if we're gonna let you stay.

You're a hoot!

Can't believe all the reluctance with doing a walking AA, buncha pansies!! Isn't that just a regular ol' foot hunt?? Lace 'em up, stretch 'em out, breathe in/breathe out.

I agree...Double Pansies!..walking mile post 9 is easier than an average chukar hunt.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:12 am

ultracarry wrote:No one ever said ypu hVe to do it. Were just presenting options. Also if you want us to figure out how you can add a Amature walking stake we would kinda need more details.

76 dogs and what's stakes are offered? Do you want to limit entries , how many courses, etc. If you only have two judges you are stuck... if you have 6 judges for the weekend you can easily make it work if they want to. When you say its impossible then you won't ever make it happen and I guess if that's what you want it would be just fine.

If this was a response to me. Here's the deal. I don't want to add a non-regular stake, and don't want to add a wAGD. There's neither the time nor the interest. I feed 3 head year 'round...by god I'm gonna ride'em.

I'm perfectly content with 76 dogs scattered across, OP/OD (try to hold them to 8-9 dogs/stake), OLGD, OGD and AGD. 4 judges will work. People want majors in the GD stakes, and we try to make that happen. So 55 dogs across the 3 GD's. Heck 70 would be better, but we try to be accommodating

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:08 am

shags wrote:
ACooper wrote:Yep you're right making the sport accessible to more people, is not a good idea.
The best way to institute walking points or nonregular stakes is to pick up the phone and say 'OK, Mr/Mrs FT Chairman, I volunteer to organize and take care of all the details of this stake that so many folks are interested in. I will line up judges, I will find an empty course suitable for walkers, and I will make sure all participants are there ready to run at the appointed time. I will also band the birds and plant the course myself or find someone to do it. I will order or shop for prizes, and take care of the judges' gifts. You won't need to worry about a thing!'

This sounds so good but stop and think about it. The sponsoring club is the one that has to do it. Hopefully some experienced people will help. But the people you are asking to do it are the ones that have never been to a trial, know very little about them, and have no idea how to set one up,and probably couldn't get it sanctioned if they did. That just won't happen, but if it did everyone else would criticize how they did it. If we can't get the people who are involved and have an idea what they are doing won't do it then it will die on the vine. I have never heard of a company that manufactures something telling their customers if they want something they don't handle to just go make it on your own and we will be glad to sell it and take the money. Point is, maybe we are the ones to promote it if we want new or more people who are interested in joining us.

Ezzy

Post by **Sharon** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:56 am

ezzy333 wrote:
shags wrote:
ACooper wrote:Yep you're right making the sport accessible to more people, is not a good idea.
The best way to institute walking points or nonregular stakes is to pick up the phone and say 'OK, Mr/Mrs FT Chairman, I volunteer to organize and take care of all the details of this stake that so many folks are interested in. I will line up judges, I will find an empty course suitable for walkers, and I will make sure all participants are there ready to run at the appointed time. I will also band the birds and plant the course myself or find someone to do it. I will order or shop for prizes, and take care of the judges' gifts. You won't need to worry about a thing!'

This sounds so good but stop and think about it. The sponsoring club is the one that has to do it. Hopefully some experienced people will help. But the people you are asking to do it are the ones that have never been to a trial, know very little about them, and have no idea how to set one up,and probably couldn't get it sanctioned if they did. That just won't happen, but if it did everyone else would criticize how they did it. If we can't get the people who are involved and have an idea what they are doing won't do it then it will die on the vine. I have never heard of a company that manufactures something telling their customers if they want something they don't handle to just go make it on your own and we will be glad to sell it and take the money. Point is, maybe we are the ones to promote it if we want new or more people who are interested in joining us.

Ezzy

Well said. Exactly. Newbies often find it hard to help out too. "Joe has been doing the food for 25 years and doesn't want to be helped." I 've seen this kind of thing often .

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 11:05 am

Ezzy,

Those are good points and certainly the most practical way is for those who already have the experience and influence to pave the way for others. Some trials that I attend have no trouble at all filling their stakes with competitors, largely due to the fact that they are well attended by professionals. I just ran the scheduled trials in Ca, Ore, Nev, and Id on the AKC website and of the 11 currently sceduled trials 3 are exclusively or have on the program full walking stakes, broke dog and puppy/derby, 3 have walking derby, and 5 have no specifically sanctioned walking trials. So there are options but field trials take a lot of effort both for the volunteers and the competitors. With all the travel, the challenging part is that you spend 30 minutes in your stake and then you don't do much. It is hard to see the rest of the trial without a horse.

That is why we need to embrace the other venues as well as the AKC HB and AF trials in the breed clubs. NSTRA, BDC and the others are designed as an event with fewer barriers to entry. The training is easier, the fields are more accessible and smaller, it just overall fits the casual trainer, hunter, with a truck, a gun and a dog on a much broader scale. Please don't misunderstand me...there are fierce competitors and arguably some of the best dogs in the world in any one of the given venues but the horseback commitent is huge financially, timewise, and extremely advanced from a training perspective...that is only going to fit those that are willing to meet the commitment, and make some sacrifices.

Joe

(and I dont care who does the food as long as it isn't me)

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 11:11 am

...ohhh and don't any of you testing people give me any lip, Coveyrise, Snips et al. The training you all do is perhaps more comprehensive...I acknowledge that and I don't want anyone yelling and hurting my feelings

Coveyrise64 · Post by **Coveyrise64** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 11:17 am

Chukar12 wrote:...ohhh and don't any of you testing people give me any lip, Coveyrise, Snips et al. The training you all do is perhaps more comprehensive...I acknowledge that and I don't want anyone yelling and hurting my feelings

Your sensitive side is showing again........

Coveyrise64

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 12:27 pm

Wyndancer wrote:
ultracarry wrote:No one ever said ypu hVe to do it. Were just presenting options. Also if you want us to figure out how you can add a Amature walking stake we would kinda need more details.

76 dogs and what's stakes are offered? Do you want to limit entries , how many courses, etc. If you only have two judges you are stuck... if you have 6 judges for the weekend you can easily make it work if they want to. When you say its impossible then you won't ever make it happen and I guess if that's what you want it would be just fine.
If this was a response to me. Here's the deal. I don't want to add a non-regular stake, and don't want to add a wAGD. There's neither the time nor the interest. I feed 3 head year 'round...by god I'm gonna ride'em.

I'm perfectly content with 76 dogs scattered across, OP/OD (try to hold them to 8-9 dogs/stake), OLGD, OGD and AGD. 4 judges will work. People want majors in the GD stakes, and we try to make that happen. So 55 dogs across the 3 GD's. Heck 70 would be better, but we try to be accommodating

Why would you not want a walking Amature gun dog and limit it to 10 or 12 entries? Then you can have your HB Amature limited GD ... it would allow those who are hesitant to enter and run the dog get hooked and pay itself back in future attendance. The Amature limited should have enough entries and to compensate for the dogs that do not qualify for the limited you have the non-limited..
Also there is no reason a club could not make money with 70-75 dogs entered unless you don't plan the event accordingly. You just may need to invite walking folks in and try to get a larger attendance .

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:33 pm

slistoe wrote:
ACooper wrote:

Not that is just plain stupid comment. If the trial is FULL then where and how do you run another stake? And if the trial is FULL, how does canceling one already filled with entries stake so that you can hold a different stake that may or may not fill up make more accessibility? Welfare mentality is what that is.

No more stupid than your post that I quoted, we get it you're an elitist and don't care about bringing new people to the sport, thats okay. You are entitled to your opinion.

No one said cram another stake into a trial that is already full or understaffed. Plan ahead and TRY to make it happen.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:41 pm

shags wrote:
ACooper wrote:Yep you're right making the sport accessible to more people, is not a good idea.
The best way to institute walking points or nonregular stakes is to pick up the phone and say 'OK, Mr/Mrs FT Chairman, I volunteer to organize and take care of all the details of this stake that so many folks are interested in. I will line up judges, I will find an empty course suitable for walkers, and I will make sure all participants are there ready to run at the appointed time. I will also band the birds and plant the course myself or find someone to do it. I will order or shop for prizes, and take care of the judges' gifts. You won't need to worry about a thing!'

Most of you assume that we those of us that disagree are not out doing something about, when in fact that is not the case at all. There are many folks out there attempting to make it happen. Our club secretary works far harder than most to make events more accessible to those of us in this area. I expect our fall walking trial to have plenty of participants.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 4:12 pm

ultracarry wrote:
Wyndancer wrote:
ultracarry wrote:No one ever said ypu hVe to do it. Were just presenting options. Also if you want us to figure out how you can add a Amature walking stake we would kinda need more details.

76 dogs and what's stakes are offered? Do you want to limit entries , how many courses, etc. If you only have two judges you are stuck... if you have 6 judges for the weekend you can easily make it work if they want to. When you say its impossible then you won't ever make it happen and I guess if that's what you want it would be just fine.
If this was a response to me. Here's the deal. I don't want to add a non-regular stake, and don't want to add a wAGD. There's neither the time nor the interest. I feed 3 head year 'round...by god I'm gonna ride'em.

I'm perfectly content with 76 dogs scattered across, OP/OD (try to hold them to 8-9 dogs/stake), OLGD, OGD and AGD. 4 judges will work. People want majors in the GD stakes, and we try to make that happen. So 55 dogs across the 3 GD's. Heck 70 would be better, but we try to be accommodating
Why would you not want a walking Amature gun dog and limit it to 10 or 12 entries? Then you can have your HB Amature limited GD ... it would allow those who are hesitant to enter and run the dog get hooked and pay itself back in future attendance. The Amature limited should have enough entries and to compensate for the dogs that do not qualify for the limited you have the non-limited..
Also there is no reason a club could not make money with 70-75 dogs entered unless you don't plan the event accordingly. You just may need to invite walking folks in and try to get a larger attendance .

Where did I say, other than the $135 for an ad in The Field, anything about money?

I see you're from CA...nothing against that, just that IMO CA FT clubs seem to run OGD, OLGD, AGD, ALGD and maybe a AA stake. I haven't seen a ALGD stake in the upper midwest in I don't know how long. Maybe Bob Erbe does one at the extravaganza he puts on at Branched Oak. It's a time/course thing for us. We tried running a multiple course event last year.....disaster. Judges waiting, having to run a dog/horse wagon from course to course to help keep delays down...no thanks.

Invite the walking folks? Here's a loose example. The Brit walking FT was/is held the first weekend of June. Looking at the people entered 90% (or more) of them own horses. There was a pro there that owns 30 head...he was walking. So there may have been 2-3 people there that didn't own a horse. Now maybe Chris Benskin has a differing viewpoint from the GSP Spring walking FT, but it's likely the same.

The bigger barrier to "walking FT'ers" (read new to the sport) is the $50 GD entry fee...$40-45 for derby. That's the barrier.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 4:24 pm

The bigger barrier to "walking FT'ers" (read new to the sport) is the $50 GD entry fee...$40-45 for derby. That's the barrier.

Really? You have more experience than I so I am buying it...but that doesn't seem sensible...

Since we are being honest and pulling our pants down I would have believed it is the frustration of not having a broke dog...

...there are many that do...Ultra, didnt own a horse and showed up with a broke dog ...but lots of people who are unfamiliar it seems dont understand "broke"

Post by **Sharon** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 4:56 pm

Chukar12 wrote:
The bigger barrier to "walking FT'ers" (read new to the sport) is the $50 GD entry fee...$40-45 for derby. That's the barrier.
Really? You have more experience than I so I am buying it...but that doesn't seem sensible...

Since we are being honest and pulling our pants down I would have believed it is the frustration of not having a broke dog...

...there are many that do...Ultra, didnt own a horse and showed up with a broke dog ...but lots of people who are unfamiliar it seems dont understand "broke"

Please don't pull your pants down . This is a family site.

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 8:15 pm

Invite the walking folks? Here's a loose example. The Brit walking FT was/is held the first weekend of June. Looking at the people entered 90% (or more) of them own horses. There was a pro there that owns 30 head...he was walking. So there may have been 2-3 people there that didn't own a horse. Now maybe Chris Benskin has a differing viewpoint from the GSP Spring walking FT, but it's likely the same.

Wyndancer, now you peaked my interest. I live in Southern Minnesota also, and I would say that about 95% of hunters I know, don't own horses. So do you think that trials appeal mostly to horse owners or that to be involved in trialing you have to get a horse? Or something else completly different? I don't believe that 90% of dog owners have horses, so why is that number so skewed?

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 8:21 pm

Chukar12 wrote:
The bigger barrier to "walking FT'ers" (read new to the sport) is the $50 GD entry fee...$40-45 for derby. That's the barrier.
Really? You have more experience than I so I am buying it...but that doesn't seem sensible...

Since we are being honest and pulling our pants down I would have believed it is the frustration of not having a broke dog...

...there are many that do...Ultra, didnt own a horse and showed up with a broke dog ...but lots of people who are unfamiliar it seems dont understand "broke"

I was gonna say that....but seeing you're so sensitive.....

So the new FT'ers don't have a horse...yet they can walk. So rather than come walk their brace and maybe a couple more, they choose not to come to the HB FT at all? What they gonna walk all the braces at the walking FT? IMO they don't want to enter a HB FT and get it handed out to them by the good amateurs and the pros. Heck even the good amateurs at HB FT get it handed to them rather frequently by the pros.....it's not a "Well the pros need to win, it's their business." It's a, "The pro has 5-6 dogs, or more, in each GD stake....he/she will get you with numbers."

So now we have to have the walking FT for the new FT'ers. Not alot of pros are into the walking stakes, but some are. More so when they are hunting a placement for a dog. The amateurs are still there, even some of the good ones. So Chukar, you're near right. I think the new people bring a broke dog...but maybe not with the finish around game, class on the ground or a polished application. Is that the case for all? Not hardly, but it's close to the reality.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 8:25 pm

nikegundog wrote:
Invite the walking folks? Here's a loose example. The Brit walking FT was/is held the first weekend of June. Looking at the people entered 90% (or more) of them own horses. There was a pro there that owns 30 head...he was walking. So there may have been 2-3 people there that didn't own a horse. Now maybe Chris Benskin has a differing viewpoint from the GSP Spring walking FT, but it's likely the same.
Wyndancer, now you peaked my interest. I live in Southern Minnesota also, and I would say that about 95% of hunters I know, don't own horses. So do you think that trials appeal mostly to horse owners or that to be involved in trialing you have to get a horse? Or something else completly different? I don't believe that 90% of dog owners have horses, so why is that number so skewed?

I never had a horse or wanted a horse until I took up FT'ing. My wife is the horse person. If we had to pay board for 3 head? No way we'd own them...no way. But we live on a 40 acre piece, we feed hay in the winter, and pasture graze in the summer. But for me? If I didn't FT, I'd have no use for a horse....well maybe, they please my wife, that I have use for.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:45 am

My apologies... the money issue was brought up by larue ..

It seems like we have a lot more trial participation on the west coast. Would that mean the competition is better and so are the dogs? Just wondering.... I don't care about new people joining we have enough fun as it is. If you get the invite to hang out with the Vizsla people its always a good time.

I try to get people out and have them watch or run dogs. It's a lot more fun when the gun dog stake is 52 dogs and takes 2 days. Makes placing an accomplishment in itself (right chukar) even if it is at a britt trial and you place third to two GSP's. At least you have the best Brittany.lol

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:25 pm

ultracarry wrote:My apologies... the money issue was brought up by larue ..

It seems like we have a lot more trial participation on the west coast. Would that mean the competition is better and so are the dogs? Just wondering.... I don't care about new people joining we have enough fun as it is. If you get the invite to hang out with the Vizsla people its always a good time.

I try to get people out and have them watch or run dogs. It's a lot more fun when the gun dog stake is 52 dogs and takes 2 days. Makes placing an accomplishment in itself (right chukar) even if it is at a britt trial and you place third to two GSP's. At least you have the best Brittany.lol

Don't care about or need new people and from a past post don't have much use for people who have lived longer i.e. older people. Just an observation.

Charlie

kensfishing · Post by **kensfishing** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 6:01 pm

birddogger wrote:
ultracarry wrote:My apologies... the money issue was brought up by larue ..

It seems like we have a lot more trial participation on the west coast. Would that mean the competition is better and so are the dogs? Just wondering.... I don't care about new people joining we have enough fun as it is. If you get the invite to hang out with the Vizsla people its always a good time.

I try to get people out and have them watch or run dogs. It's a lot more fun when the gun dog stake is 52 dogs and takes 2 days. Makes placing an accomplishment in itself (right chukar) even if it is at a britt trial and you place third to two GSP's. At least you have the best Brittany.lol
Don't care about or need new people and from a past post don't have much use for people who have lived longer i.e. older people. Just an observation.

Charlie

You were new once, right. We always need new people to get involved with dogs and trials. Some trials fill up alot faster than others. It just makes the ones who wait til the last minute to enter get on the ball.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:31 am

kensfishing wrote:
birddogger wrote:
ultracarry wrote:My apologies... the money issue was brought up by larue ..

It seems like we have a lot more trial participation on the west coast. Would that mean the competition is better and so are the dogs? Just wondering.... I don't care about new people joining we have enough fun as it is. If you get the invite to hang out with the Vizsla people its always a good time.

I try to get people out and have them watch or run dogs. It's a lot more fun when the gun dog stake is 52 dogs and takes 2 days. Makes placing an accomplishment in itself (right chukar) even if it is at a britt trial and you place third to two GSP's. At least you have the best Brittany.lol
Don't care about or need new people and from a past post don't have much use for people who have lived longer i.e. older people. Just an observation.

Charlie
You were new once, right. We always need new people to get involved with dogs and trials. Some trials fill up alot faster than others. It just makes the ones who wait til the last minute to enter get on the ball.

Newer people enter dogs. The more new people the bigger the stake. Makes a win that much better.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:53 am

ultracarry wrote:
ultracarry wrote:

I don't care about new people joining we have enough fun as it is.

Newer people enter dogs. The more new people the bigger the stake. Makes a win that much better.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:33 pm

Ohhh now you want to select quote... ya I'm not going to get bent out of shape and say we have have new people join and could care less what people want to do. but new people do enter dogs and make the stakes bigger then they would normally be.... so it increases the point value of the win. More dogs and competition is never a bad thing,

if you quoted the next paragraph which was after the first sentence you quoted you can see even though I can care less I still try to get others involved. And yes we will have the same amount of fun weather you show up or not. Our day isn't dependent upon other peoples feelings toward our game of choice keep the select quotes coming......

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:14 pm

ACooper -

It would seem that you are just trying to pick a fight.

That is fine, but if you did actually intend to enter a dog in a field trial sometime...being known as someone who picks fights with participants ain't the best way to go about making your entrance.

FWIW you are absolutely dead wrong about new folks entering dogs and making things better. More often than not, a new participant is a major PIA to just about everyone. i most certainly was(some that ain't fair minded say I still am, but i digress). They have no clue what they are doing, ask a ton of questions, get in the way, waste everyone's time, their dog is at best, half broke, they are constantly on the scrounge for a horse, ... the list is endless.

However, as previously noted...we were all new to the game at one time and we all were a PIA to the existing folks. They tolerated me, answered my innumerable questions, loaned me horses, gritted their teeth when I did something dumb that interfered with their dog, helped me out when I was too stupid or pigheaded to ask for help... and plenty more.

So...when and if you decide to enter a trial, you may expect folks to "grin and bear it" because, once upon a time, they knew it all too, just like I did when I started. They got over it, I got over it(well mostly anyway) and if you stick it out... you will too.

RayG

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:44 pm

Would it have been better if I would have said something along the lines of those two quotes are contradictory? That was my point. I'm not picking a fight, the two quotes just seemed odd coming from the same poster. With out new folks trials will not continue to have large numbers of entries.

I don't believe I know much or "it all". Just stating a fact, FTs need new folks, its the only the way the sport continues.

BTW I agree with Ultra that folks without horses need more access.

Post by **topher40** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:27 pm

Maybe we are odd here in Ks but we have a STRONG walking schedule every year and there isnt enough time to run them all that folks really want to host. Gun Dog stakes are the lure for new folks, even in the walking stakes. It sure takes LOTS of talking to newbies to get them to even enter a dog let alone run one in a Gun Dog. Fun Trials and seminars have worked wonders over the past ten years in Ks to retain and develop new folks. HB stakes are also alive and well here in KS and EVERYONE is more than welcome to lend a hand or horse to the new folks. From the post's on here I am glad to be where I am :roll:

You can check out the schedule at www.kftca.org , there are some dates and other info that is incorrect although it does provide a nice outline of the walking and HB stakes to be hosted this fall.

kensfishing · Post by **kensfishing** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:45 pm

RayGubernat wrote:ACooper -

It would seem that you are just trying to pick a fight.

That is fine, but if you did actually intend to enter a dog in a field trial sometime...being known as someone who picks fights with participants ain't the best way to go about making your entrance.

FWIW you are absolutely dead wrong about new folks entering dogs and making things better. More often than not, a new participant is a major PIA to just about everyone. i most certainly was(some that ain't fair minded say I still am, but i digress). They have no clue what they are doing, ask a ton of questions, get in the way, waste everyone's time, their dog is at best, half broke, they are constantly on the scrounge for a horse, ... the list is endless.

However, as previously noted...we were all new to the game at one time and we all were a PIA to the existing folks. They tolerated me, answered my innumerable questions, loaned me horses, gritted their teeth when I did something dumb that interfered with their dog, helped me out when I was too stupid or pigheaded to ask for help... and plenty more.

So...when and if you decide to enter a trial, you may expect folks to "grin and bear it" because, once upon a time, they knew it all too, just like I did when I started. They got over it, I got over it(well mostly anyway) and if you stick it out... you will too.

RayG

Been there, done that.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:16 pm

I probably should keep my mouth shut, but sometimes I just can't.

My point was that the poster said that he didn't care whether or not new people participated. As I read this, I was thinking about a previous thread, where the same poster made a comment about NSTRA. The comment was that it is nothing but a bunch of old men, which BTW is not true, but what if it was? I put at the end of my last post that it was just an observation and that is all it is, but I bet you could learn a thing or two from those "old men" and I personally think that people should do everything they can to get new people involved. JMO.

Charlie

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:35 pm

birddogger wrote:I probably should keep my mouth shut, but sometimes I just can't. My point was that the poster said that he didn't care whether or not new people participated. As I read this, I was thinking about a previous thread, where the same poster made a comment about NSTRA. The comment was that it is nothing but a bunch of old men, which BTW is not true, but what if it was? I put at the end of my last post that it was just an observation and that is all it is, but I bet you could learn a thing or two from those "old men" and I personally think that people should do everything they can to get new people involved. JMO.

Charlie

Just so you know, the only reason I got into FT'ing is because of ultracarry. 6 months ago I didn't know what FT'ing was, now I'm hooked. I'm 31 btw.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:00 pm

Just so you know, the only reason I got into FT'ing is because of ultracarry. 6 months ago I didn't know what FT'ing was, now I'm hooked. I'm 31 btw

brad, that is great, some of his comments just had me wondering. BTW, I doubt that he was considering 31 as being old.

Charlie

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:12 pm

birddogger wrote:I probably should keep my mouth shut, but sometimes I just can't. My point was that the poster said that he didn't care whether or not new people participated. As I read this, I was thinking about a previous thread, where the same poster made a comment about NSTRA. The comment was that it is nothing but a bunch of old men, which BTW is not true, but what if it was? I put at the end of my last post that it was just an observation and that is all it is, but I bet you could learn a thing or two from those "old men" and I personally think that people should do everything they can to get new people involved. JMO.

Charlie

Hey Charlie how about you read the entire post and look at the content. Should I personally care? No way. If you read that in the entire post it MAY make sense to you but then again you might just be an old man with a reading and comprehension problem. Don't know and don't care.

Do I try to bring new people in and give useful information to those who are not just blowing smoke? Yea. I might help them out, get them in contact with a trainer (because I'm not) and try to let people know you are not training a dog for the season, its a lifetime for the dog, so if you do it wrong because you were too cheap to get advice from a pro or buy a book then there is no blood on my hands.

BTW NSTRA in so cal is run and attended by old men. Prove me wrong. Bet you can't. Like I said before and it may have hurt your feelings, I can grantee I will loose no sleep over it. But it seems you have been stewing over that for many months and it hurt your feelings . I'm sorry if I could repair those feelings I would, only if it made you smile though.

Hope to see you at a field trial in the future. Hope you like red.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:45 pm

gpblitz wrote:
ultracarry wrote:Should I personally care? No way.
Personally you should care, we all should care. With out young folks coming into any of the venues are sports will die. The young folks are the future. Myself, I'm getting older one foot in the grave. I love seeing youngins show up wanting to learn how they can develop a better bird dog. JMO

And ill help those who want to help themselves but am not going to worry about it.

kensfishing · Post by **kensfishing** » Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:12 am

Ultra Carry , how many dogs have you finished in you long career of trailin? How many different dogs besides your own do you handle at trials? Just curious because of you expertise and knowlege of trials and how to help others. Just wondering how many new people have you gotten into trials?

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:17 am

Refer to the above post. I help the with information and get them in contact with people that know what they are doing. Since it is a forum and words are posted the intention is to have people read.

Four posts up will explain. Ya my dogs the only one I have trained and worked with. I'm not a pro, have never said I was and never will be. That's your job right. Don't want to do something someone else has mastered such as yourself. BTW how many dogs have ypu trained that finished an FC in 18 months.

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs · Post by **Ricky Ticky Shorthairs** » Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:22 am

Go get 'em Kenny!

kensfishing · Post by **kensfishing** » Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:36 am

Been judging more than running dogs, but I do have a RU in an AA open Championship. How about you? And I'm not a Pro. And I do help newcomers as much as possible.

wems2371 · Post by **wems2371** » Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:59 am

ultracarry wrote:BTW how many dogs have ypu trained that finished an FC in 18 months.

IDK how many Ken's trained & finished, but how many have you?

ultracarry wrote:I think its kind of funny how people look at others situations as if they are lucky or fortunate to be able to afford sending their dog to a pro. I'm not lucky or fortunate to have a little bit of extra money at the end of the month to send my dog to a pro but I work my "bleep" off. I work on days off to send my dog with a pro because I don't want my dog to be punished and kenneled for 24 hours while I'm at work on the days I'm working.

I pay to have someone keep my dog exercised and on birds but she knows dam well when her dad shows up and will go arse over elbows for me. At this point I don't have time to work her 5 days a week like SHE should. I worked with the pro for over a month and had his trainer give him a reference before I would hand my dog to him.

Maybe it is how I grew up but you have to make sacrifices in life sometimes to do the right thing. I'm sure my dog would get a FC AFC with me handling her but if I keep her in a kennel all day when I'm at work and sleeping I won't see my dog at all on those days she could be working and training. Why not sacrifice and keep her happy and send her to a pro who can give her what she needs.

When trial season is over she will be picked up when I get off work on my Friday and returned the day before I go back to work.

To say it must be nice to have money to send a dog to a trainer is BS. Some of us do it for the dog even if we have to work more hours or pick up side work.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:06 am

Hey Ultra http://www.remekvizslas.net/dog.php4?id=55074 you might want to email Skip and update the info on your dog I know he will put the FC on there and attach dam and sire if you give him the needed info not sure if he puts Hunt Test titles think he just does Field titles

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:29 am

Will do Knine.

BTW I can't post on this thread. Forgot I had a order to not post on it. Feel free to send a pm.

BTW wems that is an example of a good owner. I work for three to four days straight and can not care for the dog. I Do pay a pro to help ne train the dog and keep her in shape. What's your point. Send a pm as I don't want to disrespect anyone.

Gordon Guy · Post by **Gordon Guy** » Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:39 am

Since this thread is dieing a slow death here's a different spin on the same topic.

There have been a few folks/posters that have said that they have many walking trials in their area.

Those clubs/geographic areas that have a strong "Walking" trial ...program (for lack of a better word), were those events always strong (attended well) from the beginning or did they start slow and build a "following"?

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:52 am

ultracarry wrote:Will do Knine.

BTW I can't post on this thread. Forgot I had a order to not post on it. Feel free to send a pm.

BTW wems that is an example of a good owner. I work for three to four days straight and can not care for the dog. I Do pay a pro to help ne train the dog and keep her in shape. What's your point. Send a pm as I don't want to disrespect anyone.

I am in a similar boat,for 9-10 months of the year I am home 5-6 days per month total, the rest of the time I am traveling working, My dog started his FT career last fall with a pro as that is currently my only option if I want him in trials. Would I prefer to do it all myself? Of course, sometimes we have to take the only option available to us, and if I want him running trials this is it for now.

wems2371 · Post by **wems2371** » Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:58 am

To clear my quote up, since it seems to be ambiguous. My point is if you're sending a dog off to the trainer for a vast amount of time, and you're going to throw down the gauntlet about who's finished the youngest dog, you might not act like you did it all on your own. Did you finish the dog or did the trainer have a large part in it? I have no ill will for anyone that sends a dog to a trainer, just think if you're gonna get up on your haunches, you should give credit where credit is due. Modesty and experience goes a long way in my book...