Verbal ques in HT?

[jimbo&rooster]

Can you use a verbal que to stop a dog to honor at the SH level in an HT?

Jim

[phermes1]

Yes, once the dog has 'seen or acknowledged' the other dog on point.

[dan v]

Yes, once the dog has 'seen or acknowledged' the other dog on point.

And there's the rub...people have differing viewpoints on what constitutes "see or acknowledged".

[phermes1]

And there's the rub...people have differing viewpoints on what constitutes "see or acknowledged".

I agree.

Until a few years ago, it only said 'acknowledge', which I always took to mean the dog starts to slow down or shows some sort of inclination to honor before you whoa it. Once they changed it, the new interpretation by most people I've talked to was basically - if you can get the dog whoa'd before he blinks or steals point, you're good to go.
I haven't had to deal with a lot of grey area on that front when judging SH - the dogs were either really good or really bad.

[GrayDawg]

And there's the rub...people have differing viewpoints on what constitutes "see or acknowledged".

I agree.

Until a few years ago, it only said 'acknowledge', which I always took to mean the dog starts to slow down or shows some sort of inclination to honor before you whoa it. Once they changed it, the new interpretation by most people I've talked to was basically - if you can get the dog whoa'd before he blinks or steals point, you're good to go.
I haven't had to deal with a lot of grey area on that front when judging SH - the dogs were either really good or really bad.

Wow.......... that is a BIG change. When I was judging AKC Hunt Tests 15 years ago, I firmly recall the 'acknowledge' stipulation as a criteria before a handler could issue a verbal cue for their dog to stop in a SH test. With the word 'see' now added, all a handler has to do is tell the judge that they felt their dog 'saw' it's bracemate on point and PER THE RULES, the judge has to allow the handler to do it. Heck, I've been able to whoa my 2.5 year old GSP to a stop for over a year now.

Have they watered down the criteria for what is an acceptable retrieve in SH as well? :roll:

Just wonderin'

Rob

[Ken Lynch]

To me see is different than acknowledge. See is looser than acknowledge in the following way. I think we all agree that acknowledge is a change in behavior with the change being a recognition that the other dog is on point and the backing dog has started to slow down. See is different in that there is still some form of behavior change. How many times have you been looking for something and it is right in front of you and you do not recognize it. So to see something requires some form of indication that you recognize something. To me where this change has let in something unintended is the case where a backing dog sees the pointing dog and accelerates toward the pointing dog. Intent of the dog is not known but if the handler with a verbal command can stop the dog it is considered a back.

[birddogger]

To me see is different than acknowledge. See is looser than acknowledge in the following way. I think we all agree that acknowledge is a change in behavior with the change being a recognition that the other dog is on point and the backing dog has started to slow down. See is different in that there is still some form of behavior change. How many times have you been looking for something and it is right in front of you and you do not recognize it. So to see something requires some form of indication that you recognize something. To me where this change has let in something unintended is the case where a backing dog sees the pointing dog and accelerates toward the pointing dog. Intent of the dog is not known but if the handler with a verbal command can stop the dog it is considered a back.

To me, a dog is not backing if he/she only does it on a verbal command. A backing dog should go on point the instant he sees the pointing dog, but if the rules say different so be it. The thing is, I can train any dog to whoa on command at any time. It just seems to me, it shouldn't count as a back. JMO.

Charlie

[Ken Lynch]

Senior is the first level where backing gets judged. Senior is also recognized as not a finished product but more a work in progress. Backing at this level in not a pass or fail requirement. It is judged on a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 a perfect score. The question has become one of gradation. What behavior begets a 10? What things diminish that score and how much?

[phermes1]

The only reasoning I can figure is - if you can get the dog to back by whoaing it, then it's a serviceable hunting dog. Not sure I'd agree with that, since if it's off on its own it might very well steal point instead, but that's the reasoning I can see behind it.

I would prefer to see the dog slow down before being whoa'd. Having some natural tendency to back can make preparing for MH a whole bunch easier.

[Ken Lynch]

The operative thing is that the dog must change it's behavior. Looking in the direction of the dog on point does not give permission to say whoa which stops the dog and consider that a back. Again I will repeat my example of how many times have you looked for something that was directly in front of you yet you failed to see that it was there. Just because a dog turns it head in the direction of the other dog does not mean that it saw that dog on point. There is no way in which you can look inside the dogs head and know what it sees. The dog must show by modifying it's behavior that it saw a dog on point and recognized that it must do something. Just because the handler saw that the brace mate dog was on point and says whoa when his dog turns it's head in that direction does not mean that his dog saw the other dog on point. With the new word see being added one could argue that a dog that blinks a pointing dog and stops on whoa has met the new requirements of a back. Acknowledge is a much better word and should have been left alone.

[northern cajun]

The operative thing is that the dog must change it's behavior. Looking in the direction of the dog on point does not give permission to say whoa which stops the dog and consider that a back. Again I will repeat my example of how many times have you looked for something that was directly in front of you yet you failed to see that it was there. Just because a dog turns it head in the direction of the other dog does not mean that it saw that dog on point. There is no way in which you can look inside the dogs head and know what it sees. The dog must show by modifying it's behavior that it saw a dog on point and recognized that it must do something. Just because the handler saw that the brace mate dog was on point and says whoa when his dog turns it's head in that direction does not mean that his dog saw the other dog on point. With the new word see being added one could argue that a dog that blinks a pointing dog and stops on whoa has met the new requirements of a back. Acknowledge is a much better word and should have been left alone.

I agree it is much less subjective if you have to observe a behavioral difference in the backing dog. In this case the dog should slow and "acknowledge" the pointing dog upon seeing it.