line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
- quailrunner
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line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
Would you buy a dog that came from a mother-son breeding? How about litter-mates? Or what about 1/2 siblings (same mother-different father)?
If the line of dogs in question were rated in the top 20% for Hips in their breed for 3-4 generations back and the line was very clean on health issues and previous line breeding produced both field and bench champions, would this modify your point of view? Or is the taboo of line or in-breeding so ingrained in you that you wouldn't consider it?
If the line of dogs in question were rated in the top 20% for Hips in their breed for 3-4 generations back and the line was very clean on health issues and previous line breeding produced both field and bench champions, would this modify your point of view? Or is the taboo of line or in-breeding so ingrained in you that you wouldn't consider it?
Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
In my expereinces with GSD and Malinois. I have found that line breeding 2-2 is to too close. 3-3 or 3-4 is much better. When using a dog that is already very closely line bred, then you should go wide next time. If you keep staying close you are compounding all aspects of the dog you are line breeding to. The good and the bad. The more you compound these factors the more predominant both the good and the bad gets. Meaning the good tends to get very good, the bad tends to get very bad. That goes for all traits the dog has - temperament, working ability, health. You can also get some weird recessive combinations that bring forth hidden problems that otherwise would not have appeared. For a seasoned breeder who wants to build a line on a certain dog, such a litter would be a possible control litter to see what is in the lines. For a novice breeder, stay away from that. If you want pups that will be good field dogs/hunters and family dogs, can do the work, go with an outcross breeding that is compatible. Breeding is trying and learning from every litter. No breeder can predict the outcome, regardless of how many litters they already have under their belt. Many newbies get lucky, many more do not. So, if you breed two related dogs in a line breeding and each dog carries for an undesirable trait, instead of only a %25 chance of passing it on, it increases exponentionally.
Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
quailrunner,
you failed to mention temperment and conformation.
With close breedings the breeder needs to be honest,reputable, have a buy back contract and I like to hear what the goals are.
Are they going to keep a pup?
Breeding is all about the quality of the dogs involved.
you failed to mention temperment and conformation.
With close breedings the breeder needs to be honest,reputable, have a buy back contract and I like to hear what the goals are.
Are they going to keep a pup?
Breeding is all about the quality of the dogs involved.
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Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
I think Brackett's Formula works great. It allows for a wide choice within the chosen bloodline with an outcross in each generation if so desired. By this method, the mother's grandfather is the father's father.
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Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
Linebreeding and inbreeding are two variations of the same theme, IMO. The strategy in both cases, is to intensify certain desirable genetics that are present in both dogs and in that line. The danger in both cases, is intensification of undesirable, recessive genetics that can result in seriously defective offspring that will have to be destroyed.
Mother/son or father/daughter breeding can fix both desirable and undesirable genetics very firmly in the litter. Some of the very best lines of performance dogs have been developed from one or more successive inbreedings. Consistent linebreeding can also be very successful in fixing traits, but it will take more breedings, over time to accomplish.
If you plan to buy a dog from such a breeding...you need to understand both the risks as well as the potential rewards.
RayG
Mother/son or father/daughter breeding can fix both desirable and undesirable genetics very firmly in the litter. Some of the very best lines of performance dogs have been developed from one or more successive inbreedings. Consistent linebreeding can also be very successful in fixing traits, but it will take more breedings, over time to accomplish.
If you plan to buy a dog from such a breeding...you need to understand both the risks as well as the potential rewards.
RayG
- ACooper
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Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
I like the idea of consistency that a closer breeding can produce, but it takes excellent individuals to produce good dogs regardless of "method" of breeding.
- quailrunner
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Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
The line of dogs i have been researching are only considered champions if they have proven themselves in the field as well as on the bench. So, I would think this answers the conformation/temperament question.quailrunner,you failed to mention temperment and conformation.
The foreign breeder that I believe started the line has kept some pups and taken them to championship status as well as what they call "recommended sire" for the males. The mother-son breeding I was referring to, produced the breeders main sire as far as I can tell. The 1/2 siblings breeding produced a very well known champion here in the states, who later went on to produce an international champion.With close breedings the breeder needs to be honest,reputable, have a buy back contract and I like to hear what the goals are.
Are they going to keep a pup?
From what I have found, other breeders from other kennels are seeking this "blood" to bring into theirs. But it seems that line breeding is not a very common occurrence for the breed.
Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
Oh no it doesn't.Big mistake for thinking that it does.quailrunner,you failed to mention temperment and conformation.
The line of dogs i have been researching are only considered champions if they have proven themselves in the field as well as on the bench. So, I would think this answers the conformation/temperament question.
Could be because: there is a high risk potential, no one is willing to be open and honest about what's in the breed, breeders are not confident,possible not knowledgable enough to take risks.But it seems that line breeding is not a very common occurrence for the breed.
Talk to as many people as you can,if you don't hear anything "bad" it would raise flags,every breed has "bad"
- Mr. Crappie
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Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
Line breeding has been around for a long time and produced some very good dogs. Ask Ferrel Miller what he thinks about it. He was very successful. Millers bred dogs have been around, and for the most part (as with any bloodline) are exceptional dogs. From the words of a longtime producer of field trial dogs and a retired vet. "Breed the best to the best, and close is good."
- QuailHollow
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Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
Unless you are attempting to create a sub-breed, I see no reason to mate mother to son or father to daughter unless you are trying to expose a suspected defect in one of the parent animals.
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Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
Not sure what "blood" your referring to.....elaborate please.......quailrunner wrote:From what I have found, other breeders from other kennels are seeking this "blood" to bring into theirs. But it seems that line breeding is not a very common occurrence for the breed.
And it depends on your explanation of very common....Linebreeding within the breed happens alot IMO......so again maybe elaborate on this some and we might be able to answer better......as far as Line vs In breeding....may do a search on here for that it has been discussed many times at great length....
Me personally.....there one in the same just a variance of degree really
JMO
Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
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Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
http://books.google.com/ebooks/reader?i ... g=GBS.PA21
this should take you to a pedigree of Mr Ed Laverack breed in a book dated back to 1872
this should take you to a pedigree of Mr Ed Laverack breed in a book dated back to 1872
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- northern cajun
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Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
Well for me inbreeding is an indispensable tool.
I have bitch that her dad is her grand dad Father/daughter breeding NA breeders award for litter
Have another that is Uncle/niece she will be at Invitational next year.
I think the best are like sire of the sire is the grandsire of dam or my favorite is mother line breeding pups out of same dam different sires breed back to each other.
I will say yes you can get some weird stuff but however the dogs that are exceptional throw dogs that are very true to type and the litters are very consistent in form and type.
The thing is you have to be brutally honest in your breeding program cull dogs that dont have it or where recessives show up (spay neuter..) keep the cream and move on.
How do you think breeds are formed? Mother son, father daughter, uncle niece......................
Yes outcrosses are needed.
Then again what do I know I am just a cajun
I have bitch that her dad is her grand dad Father/daughter breeding NA breeders award for litter
Have another that is Uncle/niece she will be at Invitational next year.
I think the best are like sire of the sire is the grandsire of dam or my favorite is mother line breeding pups out of same dam different sires breed back to each other.
I will say yes you can get some weird stuff but however the dogs that are exceptional throw dogs that are very true to type and the litters are very consistent in form and type.
The thing is you have to be brutally honest in your breeding program cull dogs that dont have it or where recessives show up (spay neuter..) keep the cream and move on.
How do you think breeds are formed? Mother son, father daughter, uncle niece......................
Yes outcrosses are needed.
Then again what do I know I am just a cajun
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- Stoneface
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Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
I've not bred any litters yet, but am a genetics buff and have studied the subject and "interogated" geneticists. In-breeding is basically intensified line breeding. In line breeding you'll see a common "theme" to a pedigree with one dog showing up several times. In in-breeding, you'll find a dog, like you said, bred back to a parent or full sibling.
Each gene is made up of alleles. Alleles are basically genetic code that say what that gene is going to do represent and each gene has two alleles (alleles are represented by letter to make them easier for us to understand). For example, and this is an oversimplification, if a gene that is involved in a dog's bite then, say, the "dominant" allele would be "B" and this would be a good bite, while the "recessive" allele is "b" for an underbite. Now, if a dog is bb, then he is undershot, but if he's BB or Bb, then he's got a good bite, because the dominant good bite allele "B" overrides the influence of the recessive bad bite allele "b". Now, if two dogs, one with BB and another with bb breed, then you'll wind up with with every pup havin a nice bite because:
....B B
b Bb Bb
b Bb Bb
Now, every one of these pups has the bite alleles Bb (this is called a genotype). When two of them are full grown, if you breed them, you'll get roughtly three pups with solid bites for every one that is undershot.
...B b
B BB bB
b Bb bb
Three of these four pups have a dominant gene "B", so they will automatically have a nice bite. This is why some dogs will "sometimes" throw jacked up bites.
My point in all this is that the tighter the breeding, the more intensified the traits will be. It's like you hold a magnafying glass over the parents' genes. This is why inbreeding has gottena bad rap. If Farmer John down the road breeds his Pointer to Farmer Ray's dog down the way, and they're litter mates and both mediocre dogs, then they probably have some really nicer traits and some bad traits. Well, this litter will be inbred and half the litter could come out sporting really fine traits while the other half come out as junk. Likewise, ifyou have a dog that is cow hocked and he's bred to cow hocked sister, then the pups will probably come out severaly cow hocked. The tighter the breeding, the more intensified the traits become. On the other hand, if you have a sire that throw phenomenal pups and you have a daughter that is outstanding with the exception of a few traits her papa has, but didn't pass on to her, you could take her back to him. If you did this you would probably have pups that retained the undesireable trait you were trying to breed out, but some pups would probably end up drawing the good trait from the daddy/grandpa and would not only be more likely not to loose some of their mama's good traits (because, remember, she got them from her sire, who she is being bred to and if two dogs carry the same genotype, you're less likely to catch varioation because, well, the genese are the same) because it's the same traits they're getting from the sire/grandsire, but the traits could very well intensify.
So, to make a short story long, I would jump at the chance to buy an inbred or linebred pup from a line that was proven in throwing solid dogs. However, if there were any major defects commonly associated with the line I'd be weary.
Each gene is made up of alleles. Alleles are basically genetic code that say what that gene is going to do represent and each gene has two alleles (alleles are represented by letter to make them easier for us to understand). For example, and this is an oversimplification, if a gene that is involved in a dog's bite then, say, the "dominant" allele would be "B" and this would be a good bite, while the "recessive" allele is "b" for an underbite. Now, if a dog is bb, then he is undershot, but if he's BB or Bb, then he's got a good bite, because the dominant good bite allele "B" overrides the influence of the recessive bad bite allele "b". Now, if two dogs, one with BB and another with bb breed, then you'll wind up with with every pup havin a nice bite because:
....B B
b Bb Bb
b Bb Bb
Now, every one of these pups has the bite alleles Bb (this is called a genotype). When two of them are full grown, if you breed them, you'll get roughtly three pups with solid bites for every one that is undershot.
...B b
B BB bB
b Bb bb
Three of these four pups have a dominant gene "B", so they will automatically have a nice bite. This is why some dogs will "sometimes" throw jacked up bites.
My point in all this is that the tighter the breeding, the more intensified the traits will be. It's like you hold a magnafying glass over the parents' genes. This is why inbreeding has gottena bad rap. If Farmer John down the road breeds his Pointer to Farmer Ray's dog down the way, and they're litter mates and both mediocre dogs, then they probably have some really nicer traits and some bad traits. Well, this litter will be inbred and half the litter could come out sporting really fine traits while the other half come out as junk. Likewise, ifyou have a dog that is cow hocked and he's bred to cow hocked sister, then the pups will probably come out severaly cow hocked. The tighter the breeding, the more intensified the traits become. On the other hand, if you have a sire that throw phenomenal pups and you have a daughter that is outstanding with the exception of a few traits her papa has, but didn't pass on to her, you could take her back to him. If you did this you would probably have pups that retained the undesireable trait you were trying to breed out, but some pups would probably end up drawing the good trait from the daddy/grandpa and would not only be more likely not to loose some of their mama's good traits (because, remember, she got them from her sire, who she is being bred to and if two dogs carry the same genotype, you're less likely to catch varioation because, well, the genese are the same) because it's the same traits they're getting from the sire/grandsire, but the traits could very well intensify.
So, to make a short story long, I would jump at the chance to buy an inbred or linebred pup from a line that was proven in throwing solid dogs. However, if there were any major defects commonly associated with the line I'd be weary.
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Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
+1gpblitz wrote:Bred a litter once mother to son. I would never breed like this again.quailrunner wrote:Would you buy a dog that came from a mother-son breeding
Noquailrunner wrote:How about litter-mates?
Yes, If Sire side was a total outcrossquailrunner wrote:Or what about 1/2 siblings (same mother-different father)?
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Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
Grandson to Grandmother, or half siblings is about as close as I will go anymore but have backbred 3 times once with out any significant problems like some might think. I guess the dogs were pretty clean.
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Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
Line breeding implies close breeding for several generations to fix characteristics in the line of dogs. Inbreeding is simply breeding to very closely related dogs. Big difference, I think.
- ACooper
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Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
Can they not be one in same? Separated by degrees?Wenaha wrote:Line breeding implies close breeding for several generations to fix characteristics in the line of dogs. Inbreeding is simply breeding to very closely related dogs. Big difference, I think.
Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
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Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
I disagree completely....and most geneticists I know would also disagree..Wenaha wrote:Line breeding implies close breeding for several generations to fix characteristics in the line of dogs. Inbreeding is simply breeding to very closely related dogs. Big difference, I think.
However I know of many who share you view not saying its not correct but linebreeding is inbreeding just a degree of variance. I even know folks who would say uncle to niece or aunt to nephew is not inbreeding but linebreeding, where does the degree of seperation start to quantify linebreeding vs inbreeding?
JMO
- northern cajun
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Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
lvrgsp wrote:I disagree completely....and most geneticists I know would also disagree..Wenaha wrote:Line breeding implies close breeding for several generations to fix characteristics in the line of dogs. Inbreeding is simply breeding to very closely related dogs. Big difference, I think.
However I know of many who share you view not saying its not correct but linebreeding is inbreeding just a degree of variance. I even know folks who would say uncle to niece or aunt to nephew is not inbreeding but linebreeding, where does the degree of seperation start to quantify linebreeding vs inbreeding?
JMO
Well lots of time this went around in grade school.
0-5% COI coefficent of Inbreeding = outcross
5-12.5 COI = linebreeding
12.5% COI or greater = inbreeding
The COI's below give you a feel for how closely a dog is bred.
25.00% - parent/offspring or full brother/sister cross
12.50% - half brother/sister, grandparent/grandpup, or double first cousins crosses
9.75% - great uncle or aunt/great niece or nephew cross
6.25% - first cousins
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- Ahumphers91a
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Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
The way I have been told to "linebreed" is that the sire of the sire, is the grand-sire of the dam. Stick with that and you should be fine. Always with linebreeding remember to get an outcross in there somewhere.
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This would be a linebreed to FC AFC Sundance's Hearts Are Wild
Web-Site: http://nextgenerationgermanshorthairs.n ... 8&HDR=Home
Duece Pedigree: http://nextgenerationgermanshorthairs.n ... erations=5
Dee Pedigree: http://nextgenerationgermanshorthairs.n ... erations=5
Duece Pedigree: http://nextgenerationgermanshorthairs.n ... erations=5
Dee Pedigree: http://nextgenerationgermanshorthairs.n ... erations=5
Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
Let me clarify, please.Wenaha wrote:Line breeding implies close breeding for several generations to fix characteristics in the line of dogs. Inbreeding is simply breeding to very closely related dogs. Big difference, I think.
In-breeding can simply be the breeding of two closely related dogs. It is a TOOL in line breeding, but line breeding implies developing a LINE of dogs, not just producing one litter. It also implies a PLAN and BREEDING GOAL with the intent to fix specific characteristics to be achieved by several means over time. Line breeding also usually employs an out cross to a unrelated, but similar, line-bred dog to avoid in0breeding depression.
SO, in short, line breeding is a PROCESS, in-breeding is an event.
- Ahumphers91a
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Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
You could say that. I also like to look at the traits of the others bred to say the same sire you are looking to get a line breed to. My male duece in the above link for instance. He is very much bred from Dixieland's rusty, Uodibar's Boss Man breedings. So I found a female that has similar lines through the Moesgaard dog's bred to dogs that produced Rawhides Clown and Heides mighty city slicker, then her dams side is much more similar through rusty and the uodibar's dogs again.Wenaha wrote:Let me clarify, please.Wenaha wrote:Line breeding implies close breeding for several generations to fix characteristics in the line of dogs. Inbreeding is simply breeding to very closely related dogs. Big difference, I think.
In-breeding can simply be the breeding of two closely related dogs. It is a TOOL in line breeding, but line breeding implies developing a LINE of dogs, not just producing one litter. It also implies a PLAN and BREEDING GOAL with the intent to fix specific characteristics to be achieved by several means over time. Line breeding also usually employs an out cross to a unrelated, but similar, line-bred dog to avoid in0breeding depression.
SO, in short, line breeding is a PROCESS, in-breeding is an event.
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Duece Pedigree: http://nextgenerationgermanshorthairs.n ... erations=5
Dee Pedigree: http://nextgenerationgermanshorthairs.n ... erations=5
Duece Pedigree: http://nextgenerationgermanshorthairs.n ... erations=5
Dee Pedigree: http://nextgenerationgermanshorthairs.n ... erations=5
Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
This is true as far as it goes, but a line bred dog can have a fairly high COI that indicates the influence of one or two founding dogs of that line.northern cajun wrote:[
The COI's below give you a feel for how closely a dog is bred.
25.00% - parent/offspring or full brother/sister cross
12.50% - half brother/sister, grandparent/grandpup, or double first cousins crosses
9.75% - great uncle or aunt/great niece or nephew cross
6.25% - first cousins
This is the pedigree of one of my setters that has a COI for over 16%...
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Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
We just did the breeding posted here, it is a line breeding (in my opinion) on the top preforming and producing dogs of the breed over the last 8-10 years.I cant wait for the pups to arrive and will be keeping at least one, maybe more.
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- northern cajun
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Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
OK I have to call BS here inbreeding is not an event if you think that some of the great breeders used it with out a plan you are sadly mistaken and the quickest way to "fix" specific traits/characteristics is inbreeding. Also, inbreeding in is strictest definition is the mating of related individuals so if its on the top and the bottom of the pedigree its inbreeding we can choose to call it "linebreeding" to make us feel better but its freaking inbreeding just the same. Breeders that inbreed also outcross when appropriate.Wenaha wrote:Let me clarify, please.Wenaha wrote:Line breeding implies close breeding for several generations to fix characteristics in the line of dogs. Inbreeding is simply breeding to very closely related dogs. Big difference, I think.
In-breeding can simply be the breeding of two closely related dogs. It is a TOOL in line breeding, but line breeding implies developing a LINE of dogs, not just producing one litter. It also implies a PLAN and BREEDING GOAL with the intent to fix specific characteristics to be achieved by several means over time. Line breeding also usually employs an out cross to a unrelated, but similar, line-bred dog to avoid in0breeding depression.
SO, in short, line breeding is a PROCESS, in-breeding is an event.
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Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
As you please.But if you read my post again, you might recognize that in-breeding is ONE TOOL in line breeding, but in-breeding alone does not create a LINE of dogs, just a litter of closely bred pups.northern cajun wrote:OK I have to call BS here inbreeding is not an event if you think that some of the great breeders used it with out a plan you are sadly mistaken and the quickest way to "fix" specific traits/characteristics is inbreeding. Also, inbreeding in is strictest definition is the mating of related individuals so if its on the top and the bottom of the pedigree its inbreeding we can choose to call it "linebreeding" to make us feel better but its freaking inbreeding just the same. Breeders that inbreed also outcross when appropriate.Wenaha wrote:Let me clarify, please.Wenaha wrote:Line breeding implies close breeding for several generations to fix characteristics in the line of dogs. Inbreeding is simply breeding to very closely related dogs. Big difference, I think.
In-breeding can simply be the breeding of two closely related dogs. It is a TOOL in line breeding, but line breeding implies developing a LINE of dogs, not just producing one litter. It also implies a PLAN and BREEDING GOAL with the intent to fix specific characteristics to be achieved by several means over time. Line breeding also usually employs an out cross to a unrelated, but similar, line-bred dog to avoid in0breeding depression.
SO, in short, line breeding is a PROCESS, in-breeding is an event.
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Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
You are obviously right. :roll: :roll: Inbreeding can create breeds of dogs, how on earth could it be used to just create a line of dogs within a breed. Are you serious :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
HAVE A GREAT DAY!!
GOD BLESS
DOGS COULDNT LIVE WITHOUT EM!!
NORTHERN CAJUN
GOD BLESS
DOGS COULDNT LIVE WITHOUT EM!!
NORTHERN CAJUN
Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
You lost me on this one.northern cajun wrote:You are obviously right. :roll: :roll: Inbreeding can create breeds of dogs, how on earth could it be used to just create a line of dogs within a breed. Are you serious :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207
It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!
Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207
It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!
Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.
- northern cajun
- Rank: 5X Champion
- Posts: 836
- Joined: Mon May 07, 2007 9:28 am
- Location: Breaux Bridge, La and Ithaca, NY
Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
ezzy333 wrote:You lost me on this one.northern cajun wrote:You are obviously right. :roll: :roll: Inbreeding can create breeds of dogs, how on earth could it be used to just create a line of dogs within a breed. Are you serious :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Ezzy
Ezzy it was in response to Wenaha's last post which was ........cart horse.
HAVE A GREAT DAY!!
GOD BLESS
DOGS COULDNT LIVE WITHOUT EM!!
NORTHERN CAJUN
GOD BLESS
DOGS COULDNT LIVE WITHOUT EM!!
NORTHERN CAJUN
Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
Cajun
I am serious as a heart attack. If you believe what you just posted, then I am not going to write a book to explain it to you.
Read Wehle's book.
I am serious as a heart attack. If you believe what you just posted, then I am not going to write a book to explain it to you.
Read Wehle's book.
- kninebirddog
- GDF Premier Member!
- Posts: 7846
- Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2004 12:45 am
- Location: Coolidge AZ
Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
wenaha.. viewtopic.php?f=69&t=28912&p=265185&hil ... ot#p265185
I read wheles book I also entered Snakefoots nine generation in my breeders software program...I still wonder why he bashed spunky creek boy saying he had to get rid of the pups and yet in the Ancestory report the dog he claimed to be in snakefoots pedigree hundreds of times Lexington Jake is no where close to his claims and spunky creek the dog he bashed so hard is in snakefoots pedigree 15 times
but then here is the top 17 dogs that have grand parent contribution or higher to Snakefoots pedigree
Animal Name.................. Appearances.............. % Contribution
...................................in pedigree..................................
ELHEW YELLOW RAIL................. 1 .......................50.0000
ELHEW STRIKE......................... 1....................... 50.0000
ELHEW RAINDROP ......................1....................... 25.0000
ELHEW BRASS ...........................1....................... 25.0000
ELHEW GIMLI ...........................1........................ 25.0000
HOOK'S BOUNTY HUNTER ...............1....................... 25.0000
ELHEW BOBOLINK ........................3 .......................21.8750
RED WATER REX ..........................7 .......................19.5313
ELHEW ITALY ..................... .......2 ........................18.7500
ELHEW HUCKATUCK ......................2 .........................18.7500
ELHEW HUCKLEBERRY.................... 13.........................17.3828
ELHEW JUNGLE............................ 31 .........................17.3828
ELHEW ELLIE MAE ...........................1 .........................12.5000
CAINE'S ROYAL CLOUD........................ 1....................... 12.5000
PALADIN'S ROYAL LEGACY ...................1......................... 12.5000
ELHEW ROUND ABOUT ........................1........................ 12.5000
GUARD RAIL ....................................1 ........................12.5000
What I would be really interested in is when he was breeding blue foxes for their pelts. There is where you can really tell what a program is doing
also when he was raising horses
I read wheles book I also entered Snakefoots nine generation in my breeders software program...I still wonder why he bashed spunky creek boy saying he had to get rid of the pups and yet in the Ancestory report the dog he claimed to be in snakefoots pedigree hundreds of times Lexington Jake is no where close to his claims and spunky creek the dog he bashed so hard is in snakefoots pedigree 15 times
but then here is the top 17 dogs that have grand parent contribution or higher to Snakefoots pedigree
Animal Name.................. Appearances.............. % Contribution
...................................in pedigree..................................
ELHEW YELLOW RAIL................. 1 .......................50.0000
ELHEW STRIKE......................... 1....................... 50.0000
ELHEW RAINDROP ......................1....................... 25.0000
ELHEW BRASS ...........................1....................... 25.0000
ELHEW GIMLI ...........................1........................ 25.0000
HOOK'S BOUNTY HUNTER ...............1....................... 25.0000
ELHEW BOBOLINK ........................3 .......................21.8750
RED WATER REX ..........................7 .......................19.5313
ELHEW ITALY ..................... .......2 ........................18.7500
ELHEW HUCKATUCK ......................2 .........................18.7500
ELHEW HUCKLEBERRY.................... 13.........................17.3828
ELHEW JUNGLE............................ 31 .........................17.3828
ELHEW ELLIE MAE ...........................1 .........................12.5000
CAINE'S ROYAL CLOUD........................ 1....................... 12.5000
PALADIN'S ROYAL LEGACY ...................1......................... 12.5000
ELHEW ROUND ABOUT ........................1........................ 12.5000
GUARD RAIL ....................................1 ........................12.5000
What I would be really interested in is when he was breeding blue foxes for their pelts. There is where you can really tell what a program is doing
also when he was raising horses
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
-
- GDF Junkie
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Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
Ok Wenaha.....your Sunrise bred pup is 16% Coi..? That is what I read correct? Ok so is he linebred or inbred? And is the 16% a COI or COL?
COI meaning Coefficient of inbreeding?
COL meaning Coefficent of Linebreeding?
I have yet to see a COL rating here folks......were talking inbreeding it is what it is....like it or not, call it what you want thats ok, but in its simplest form for the sake of discussion linebreeding/inbreeding is one in the same PERIOD............
Call it what you want thats really not a concern....heck you can call it Wenaha breeding, honestly. Quit reading all the crap on the "bleep" web.....for all intensive purposes its one in the same. Thats why the percentages of inbreeding AKA COI was established to determine the percentage of inbreeding, we the humans decide if we want to call it linebreeding or not, you know why?
Because inbreeding to some is just a dirty word, and linebreeding....well that just makes it all the better in our world.......
COI meaning Coefficient of inbreeding?
COL meaning Coefficent of Linebreeding?
I have yet to see a COL rating here folks......were talking inbreeding it is what it is....like it or not, call it what you want thats ok, but in its simplest form for the sake of discussion linebreeding/inbreeding is one in the same PERIOD............
Call it what you want thats really not a concern....heck you can call it Wenaha breeding, honestly. Quit reading all the crap on the "bleep" web.....for all intensive purposes its one in the same. Thats why the percentages of inbreeding AKA COI was established to determine the percentage of inbreeding, we the humans decide if we want to call it linebreeding or not, you know why?
Because inbreeding to some is just a dirty word, and linebreeding....well that just makes it all the better in our world.......
- kninebirddog
- GDF Premier Member!
- Posts: 7846
- Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2004 12:45 am
- Location: Coolidge AZ
Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
another thought on inbreeding and line breeding
In breeding is where the tree barely forks
Line breeding your adding some branches to the tree
In breeding is where the tree barely forks
Line breeding your adding some branches to the tree
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
- quailrunner
- Rank: Senior Hunter
- Posts: 149
- Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 5:24 pm
- Location: Along the Rio Grande, New Mexico
Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
Then isn't in-breeding just pruning the tree?
Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
Both inbreeding and linebreeding prune the tree....one is just quicker than the other.quailrunner wrote:Then isn't in-breeding just pruning the tree?
Dan
Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
The pedigree I posted above was meant to illustrate two points...lvrgsp wrote:Ok Wenaha.....your Sunrise bred pup is 16% Coi..? That is what I read correct? Ok so is he linebred or inbred? And is the 16% a COI or COL?
COI meaning Coefficient of inbreeding?
COL meaning Coefficent of Linebreeding?
I have yet to see a COL rating here folks......were talking inbreeding it is what it is....like it or not, call it what you want thats ok, but in its simplest form for the sake of discussion linebreeding/inbreeding is one in the same PERIOD............
Call it what you want thats really not a concern....heck you can call it Wenaha breeding, honestly. Quit reading all the crap on the "bleep" web.....for all intensive purposes its one in the same. Thats why the percentages of inbreeding AKA COI was established to determine the percentage of inbreeding, we the humans decide if we want to call it linebreeding or not, you know why?
Because inbreeding to some is just a dirty word, and linebreeding....well that just makes it all the better in our world.......
1. Line breeding is multi-generational and almost always includes some dogs that are NOT related. The example I posted includes a number of unrelated dogs, in this example Destinaire and Grouse Ridge Kim, among others. TM Sunrise appears 7 times in 5 generations.
2. A dog can have a fairly high COI without breeding father to daughter of brother to sister.
Again, in-breeding is just one tool in line breeding.
- ACooper
- GDF Premier Member!
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- Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 1:37 pm
- Location: Sometimes I'm in Oklahoma
Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
Saying "line-breeding" makes some folks feel better about "in-breeding" their dogs.
BTW my Dez dog has a COI of 24.
BTW my Dez dog has a COI of 24.
- birddogger
- GDF Junkie
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Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
It's really pretty simple....if a litter turns out nice, it is line breeding and if it turns out bad, it is in breeding. IMO, it's all just a figure of speech.
Charlie
Charlie
If you think you can or if you think you can't, you are right either way
- northern cajun
- Rank: 5X Champion
- Posts: 836
- Joined: Mon May 07, 2007 9:28 am
- Location: Breaux Bridge, La and Ithaca, NY
Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
Well put!lvrgsp wrote:Ok Wenaha.....your Sunrise bred pup is 16% Coi..? That is what I read correct? Ok so is he linebred or inbred? And is the 16% a COI or COL?
COI meaning Coefficient of inbreeding?
COL meaning Coefficent of Linebreeding?
I have yet to see a COL rating here folks......were talking inbreeding it is what it is....like it or not, call it what you want thats ok, but in its simplest form for the sake of discussion linebreeding/inbreeding is one in the same PERIOD............
Call it what you want thats really not a concern....heck you can call it Wenaha breeding, honestly. Quit reading all the crap on the "bleep" web.....for all intensive purposes its one in the same. Thats why the percentages of inbreeding AKA COI was established to determine the percentage of inbreeding, we the humans decide if we want to call it linebreeding or not, you know why?
Because inbreeding to some is just a dirty word, and linebreeding....well that just makes it all the better in our world.......
HAVE A GREAT DAY!!
GOD BLESS
DOGS COULDNT LIVE WITHOUT EM!!
NORTHERN CAJUN
GOD BLESS
DOGS COULDNT LIVE WITHOUT EM!!
NORTHERN CAJUN
Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
[quote="ACooper"]Saying "line-breeding" makes some folks feel better about "in-breeding"
Same thing i tried telling my Cuzzen
Same thing i tried telling my Cuzzen
Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
Kninebirdog:kninebirddog wrote:wenaha.. viewtopic.php?f=69&t=28912&p=265185&hil ... ot#p265185
I read wheles book I also entered Snakefoots nine generation in my breeders software program...I still wonder why he bashed spunky creek boy saying he had to get rid of the pups and yet in the Ancestory report the dog he claimed to be in snakefoots pedigree hundreds of times Lexington Jake is no where close to his claims and spunky creek the dog he bashed so hard is in snakefoots pedigree 15 times
but then here is the top 17 dogs that have grand parent contribution or higher to Snakefoots pedigree
Animal Name.................. Appearances.............. % Contribution
...................................in pedigree..................................
ELHEW YELLOW RAIL................. 1 .......................50.0000
ELHEW STRIKE......................... 1....................... 50.0000
ELHEW RAINDROP ......................1....................... 25.0000
ELHEW BRASS ...........................1....................... 25.0000
ELHEW GIMLI ...........................1........................ 25.0000
HOOK'S BOUNTY HUNTER ...............1....................... 25.0000
ELHEW BOBOLINK ........................3 .......................21.8750
RED WATER REX ..........................7 .......................19.5313
ELHEW ITALY ..................... .......2 ........................18.7500
ELHEW HUCKATUCK ......................2 .........................18.7500
ELHEW HUCKLEBERRY.................... 13.........................17.3828
ELHEW JUNGLE............................ 31 .........................17.3828
ELHEW ELLIE MAE ...........................1 .........................12.5000
CAINE'S ROYAL CLOUD........................ 1....................... 12.5000
PALADIN'S ROYAL LEGACY ...................1......................... 12.5000
ELHEW ROUND ABOUT ........................1........................ 12.5000
GUARD RAIL ....................................1 ........................12.5000
What I would be really interested in is when he was breeding blue foxes for their pelts. There is where you can really tell what a program is doing
also when he was raising horses
Here is a link to an article by Bob Wehle in a 1991 American Field article. If you have not already read it, you might find it interesting...
http://www.superiorpointers.com/pdf/Weh ... eeding.pdf
Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
How do you get a COL rating. I know my Gator dog has to be high.
Kresha's Gator of Troy
TK'S OILDALE RUNNER
Get Your Free Pedigree Today!
I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." Thomas Jefferson
Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
Troy08er:Troy08er wrote:How do you get a COL rating. I know my Gator dog has to be high.
Unless he has some secret algorithm, the poster is just blowing smoke in an attempt to support his views. A 6 or 10 generation COI on your dog will tell you something, along with an ancestor contribution table. Or don't worry about it and enjoy your dog.
- birddogger
- GDF Junkie
- Posts: 3776
- Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:09 pm
- Location: Bunker Hill, IL.
Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
+1.Or don't worry about it and enjoy your dog
Charlie
If you think you can or if you think you can't, you are right either way
-
- GDF Junkie
- Posts: 2511
- Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 9:12 am
- Location: ILLA NOISE..................
Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
Wenaha wrote:Troy08er:Troy08er wrote:How do you get a COL rating. I know my Gator dog has to be high.
Unless he has some secret algorithm, the poster is just blowing smoke in an attempt to support his views. A 6 or 10 generation COI on your dog will tell you something, along with an ancestor contribution table. Or don't worry about it and enjoy your dog.
Call it smoke or what you want......I need not support my views, there mine, as I've said before call it what you want believe what you want.....
6 or 10 generation COI? A great variance in COI's can be had from 6 to 10 gens.....Ancestor contribution table? Better make sure the darn peds correct first, and what ancestor contributes what......
But your last statement is probably the best I have seen yet........and I agree with. Enjoy your dog and don't worry about it.
You can stick to the algorithyms, sounds like you might be better at it...........I know nothing about them..
Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
Nice read thanks. My next dog going to be a pointer, so I've been reseaching the lines.Wenaha wrote:Kninebirdog:kninebirddog wrote:wenaha.. viewtopic.php?f=69&t=28912&p=265185&hil ... ot#p265185
I read wheles book I also entered Snakefoots nine generation in my breeders software program...I still wonder why he bashed spunky creek boy saying he had to get rid of the pups and yet in the Ancestory report the dog he claimed to be in snakefoots pedigree hundreds of times Lexington Jake is no where close to his claims and spunky creek the dog he bashed so hard is in snakefoots pedigree 15 times
but then here is the top 17 dogs that have grand parent contribution or higher to Snakefoots pedigree
Animal Name.................. Appearances.............. % Contribution
...................................in pedigree..................................
ELHEW YELLOW RAIL................. 1 .......................50.0000
ELHEW STRIKE......................... 1....................... 50.0000
ELHEW RAINDROP ......................1....................... 25.0000
ELHEW BRASS ...........................1....................... 25.0000
ELHEW GIMLI ...........................1........................ 25.0000
HOOK'S BOUNTY HUNTER ...............1....................... 25.0000
ELHEW BOBOLINK ........................3 .......................21.8750
RED WATER REX ..........................7 .......................19.5313
ELHEW ITALY ..................... .......2 ........................18.7500
ELHEW HUCKATUCK ......................2 .........................18.7500
ELHEW HUCKLEBERRY.................... 13.........................17.3828
ELHEW JUNGLE............................ 31 .........................17.3828
ELHEW ELLIE MAE ...........................1 .........................12.5000
CAINE'S ROYAL CLOUD........................ 1....................... 12.5000
PALADIN'S ROYAL LEGACY ...................1......................... 12.5000
ELHEW ROUND ABOUT ........................1........................ 12.5000
GUARD RAIL ....................................1 ........................12.5000
What I would be really interested in is when he was breeding blue foxes for their pelts. There is where you can really tell what a program is doing
also when he was raising horses
Here is a link to an article by Bob Wehle in a 1991 American Field article. If you have not already read it, you might find it interesting...
http://www.superiorpointers.com/pdf/Weh ... eeding.pdf
Kresha's Gator of Troy
TK'S OILDALE RUNNER
Get Your Free Pedigree Today!
I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." Thomas Jefferson
- quailrunner
- Rank: Senior Hunter
- Posts: 149
- Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 5:24 pm
- Location: Along the Rio Grande, New Mexico
Re: line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?
It looks like mostly all of the inbreeding or linebreeding of the various breeds of pointing dogs is done on the Dog's line (male). The line that i have been looking at seems to be more structured around the bitches line. Like I said in my original post: breedings of mother/son, 1/2 siblings with common mother and so forth.
I have always felt that a strong mother-line is more beneficial to improving or at least maintaining the qualities desired in a breeding program, but this kind of breeding program is hard to find.
Do you think there is a difference between these types of breeding programs ie. mother-line versus father-line? I'll leave this question a bit vague in the hopes of getting a larger variety of comments.
I have always felt that a strong mother-line is more beneficial to improving or at least maintaining the qualities desired in a breeding program, but this kind of breeding program is hard to find.
Do you think there is a difference between these types of breeding programs ie. mother-line versus father-line? I'll leave this question a bit vague in the hopes of getting a larger variety of comments.