GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

[kninebirddog]

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..............

[birddog1968]

Its so far gone to one side there is no reason to enter bench shows with field dogs at least in the pointer world.

I don't know of any show Ch that are also FC/AFC/NFC's in the pointer world. They are judging by an old english standard that has no basis in performance. Show up
with a handsome field bred pointer with a poker tail that is a field CH and you will probably be laughed out of the building. I can't even find a Show Ch with anything more
than a JH title (which is a joke).

So what they deem as a fault or a DQ means little to someone who is breeding for performance.


Show Ch bred, working bird

[birddog1968]

From what i can tell its about the divergence of show and performance based dogs......and what constitutes a DQ. I think a dog with no performance titles should be a DQ, and JH don't count

[fuzznut]

there are multiple Dual Champions (show champion & field champion) pointers out there in AKC land. May not be your cup of tea, but they are there. The AKC bred dogs are a different critter to be sure then their FDSB brethern, much more old style or european type.
D.C. Scanpoint's Touch O'Troll
DC/AFC/Braz. Ch/Ch Ams/S Am Ch Kinnike Wythelde SH
DC Kinnike Blackthorne
DC/AFC Kinnike Hedda JH
DC Kinnike Simon JH
BIS Dual Ch Kinnike Stewart JH CD
Dual Ch Kinnike Stewart JH CD
DC/Amateur Field CH. Scanpoint's MacKenzie...
DUAL CHAMPION Woodspoint Remington MH CD NAVHDA N.A.
DUAL CHAMPION Remington Grand Teton Ranger, SH
DUAL CHAMPION Blackthorne Remington Isis, JH, CD, VAX
There may be more but this was a quick search.

Breeding a dog with a slightly off bite isn't the end of the world if everything else you want is there. But you better be sure of what other bite issues may be lurking back there in both the sire and dams side of things. Even dogs with good bites, bred to good bites can produce an off bite. That gene will indeed lurk in the background and pop up from time to time. So, is it worth it? All depends.....
Fuzz

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

Every one want to see a fine example of some old German B & W lines go to Huntem up kennels click on upcomming litters scroll down to Ruger & Dot litter check out Dot!!
Said to be from HegeHaus, Wittekind, & Pottsiepen German Lines (Meet) Dot

[birddog1968]

Only see 3 on that list with competition titles... while hunt tests show ability to be trained they aren't really in the same realm as winning in competition.
If there was full participation between registries those 3 probably wouldn't be there either.

[ACooper]

Only see 3 on that list with competition titles... while hunt tests show ability to be trained they aren't really in the same realm as winning in competition.
If there was full participation between registries those 3 probably wouldn't be there either.

They are all duals, field and show.

[brad27]

Only see 3 on that list with competition titles... while hunt tests show ability to be trained they aren't really in the same realm as winning in competition.
If there was full participation between registries those 3 probably wouldn't be there either.

Um........................ I know AKC probably isn't your thing but DC means dual champion. Show CH and FC.

[adogslife]

Performance titles,conformation titles

you're begining to sounding very German


every dog should prove form and ability before being bred

better for the breed and better for the breeder

[birddog1968]

My mistake

Guessing they weren't running against Silver Bullet or snowatch those days they won
Any dog thats won multiple hour Championships and gone to run 3 hours at ames has pretty much
proven confirmation.

I'm out, Ive derailed this enough , sorry.......

[fuzznut]

see why these arguments go on and on and on... no one READS what is written. I put in there that they were Dual Champions (and even put in that was a Show Ch and a Field Champion!) And Birddog... an AFC is an Amateur Field Champion, so yes, all those dog had to compete and beat other dogs multiple times to get the title. Not just once as in AF, but week in and week out.
If people would actually take the time to read anything others wrote......

[birddog1968]

I should have bowed out while back, My knowledge of AKC titles and AKC pointers is limited. From the outside it seems that you GSP people
have stayed more true to the dogs and their intent then some other breeds.

My contempt for AKC/Club breed standards stems more from the labradors and Ive long since written off breed standards and the AKC.

Its all so subjective as to almost be just plain silly......The field bred and registered dogs leave alot more room, I guess, for funny stuff but with
eyes wide open it seems to me to be a more effective system for producing dogs with performance and looks. if the standard was applied
with clear intent towards being true to the dogs and the written word then it would have more credibility, with me at least.

Just a pictorial of what i mean, Im guessing Irish setters would have benefited from some competition dogs with bad bite over what they bred to get where they are now.

A. 1930's UK and American Bench CH


B. Bench dog of today


If they both had bad bites which one would you breed too

[ezzy333]

Tight cat paws on an AKC Ep are a DQ , work perty darn well in the field tho......

I found this be rather interesting, and it is news to me. It would seem they are going for some focus on early speed rather than total focus on endurance. Not my breed, but i am surprised. Nevertheless, you are in error. It is not a DQ, but a fault. Two very different things, See below for Standard.

Feet

Oval, with long, closely-set, arched toes, well-padded, and deep. Catfoot is a fault. Dewclaws on the forelegs may be removed.

Ok not a DQ, doesn't make any difference to the point i was making , which is AKC has lost all credibility in my mind....I am just glad for FDSB and
it's pretty obvious that performance is a better driver then someone writing a standard based on goodness knows what, which is why there is such
a large gap in an akc pointer and a pointer bred with no confirmation standard, only performance.

It's no wonder the Border Collie folks want nothing to do with AKC..... I wonder who wrote the pointer standard....most likely someone with no concept of performance. Delmar liked nice tight catpaws so who would you agree with? Reminds me of the labrador issue and the fact these bench dogs couldn't hold a candle for a field bred lab who's confirmation is based on performance.

Where in the world did you get the idea that Pointers don't have a standard?

[kninebirddog]

http://www.akc.org/breeds/pointer/

[birddog1968]

I found this be rather interesting, and it is news to me. It would seem they are going for some focus on early speed rather than total focus on endurance. Not my breed, but i am surprised. Nevertheless, you are in error. It is not a DQ, but a fault. Two very different things, See below for Standard.

Feet

Oval, with long, closely-set, arched toes, well-padded, and deep. Catfoot is a fault. Dewclaws on the forelegs may be removed.

Ok not a DQ, doesn't make any difference to the point i was making , which is AKC has lost all credibility in my mind....I am just glad for FDSB and
it's pretty obvious that performance is a better driver then someone writing a standard based on goodness knows what, which is why there is such
a large gap in an akc pointer and a pointer bred with no confirmation standard, only performance.

It's no wonder the Border Collie folks want nothing to do with AKC..... I wonder who wrote the pointer standard....most likely someone with no concept of performance. Delmar liked nice tight catpaws so who would you agree with? Reminds me of the labrador issue and the fact these bench dogs couldn't hold a candle for a field bred lab who's confirmation is based on performance.

Where in the world did you get the idea that Pointers don't have a standard?

I dunno Ezzy, where did you get the idea I did not think they had a standard? since this post is talking about cat paws being a DQ (or more accurately a fault) its pretty obvious i was looking at the standard.

[JKP]

AKC has lost all credibility in my mind

I agree. The breeding of pure bred dogs on the basis of looks and pedigree has devastated many breeds. Dozens of breeds have serious genetic abnormalities up to and including the inability to reproduce naturally....just so folks could amuse themselves with their favorite pooch. With the recent admission of mongrels to the AKC registry so that these dogs can compete in non-breed events (obedience, agility, rally, etc), we will now see the rise of even more "custom breeds" (ie mutts) especially bred for these activities. Its a sick organization....and none of the breed organizations have the power to so much as formulate breeding regs, performance minimums, etc. To my mind, not the place for a serious breeder to be.

[ezzy333]

AKC has lost all credibility in my mind

I agree. The breeding of pure bred dogs on the basis of looks and pedigree has devastated many breeds. Dozens of breeds have serious genetic abnormalities up to and including the inability to reproduce naturally....just so folks could amuse themselves with their favorite pooch. With the recent admission of mongrels to the AKC registry so that these dogs can compete in non-breed events (obedience, agility, rally, etc), we will now see the rise of even more "custom breeds" (ie mutts) especially bred for these activities. Its a sick organization....and none of the breed organizations have the power to so much as formulate breeding regs, performance minimums, etc. To my mind, not the place for a serious breeder to be.

Very good. Always good to find out who can accept the standard of their breed and follow it and and those that can't. Makes me wonder why anyone would own a breed they don't like.

Ezzy

[ACooper]

AKC has lost all credibility in my mind

I agree. The breeding of pure bred dogs on the basis of looks and pedigree has devastated many breeds. Dozens of breeds have serious genetic abnormalities up to and including the inability to reproduce naturally....just so folks could amuse themselves with their favorite pooch. With the recent admission of mongrels to the AKC registry so that these dogs can compete in non-breed events (obedience, agility, rally, etc), we will now see the rise of even more "custom breeds" (ie mutts) especially bred for these activities. Its a sick organization....and none of the breed organizations have the power to so much as formulate breeding regs, performance minimums, etc. To my mind, not the place for a serious breeder to be.

My GF and I had this conversation last night, I just cannot believe that breeds like bulldogs that cannot breed or birth without assistance are even in existence, but the fact is they sell for even more money due to these difficulties. It really irks me...

[lvrgsp]

...

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

Chip I never said pointers have not been bred into pointers have been bred into every about every breed of bird dogs out there.I said I would breed to Sonny again & I would regardless of how he is bred proof or no proof.You know all three studs Wendy was bred to & he produce the nicest litter of all. There are people on this board that act all hi & mighty but I've seen some of the dogs they have bred to & know what they produce.

[lvrgsp]

...

[nikegundog]

Very good. Always good to find out who can accept the standard of their breed and follow it and and those that can't. Makes me wonder why anyone would own a breed they don't like.

Ezzy

Ezzy, do you believe we should just breed the way our Breed Club tells us the dogs should be bred?

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

Chip sent you a PM!! It was ACE to Ginger yes I did that three times but Sonny took care of Wendy's worst conformation fault her weak pasterns & turned out feet.Plus added to some of her good points.Ace & Ginger never really had any faults that stood out.No they weren't perfect no dogs are but if I never owned a dog with any worse conformation faults then they I would be happy.No where did I ever say I would breed FOR bad bites but right now TODAY Black is a DQ as are extreme over or under bites & if people can't handle that it's tough.
I will NEVER VOTE for it & never own one!! FACT!!

[adogslife]

Black is only a consideration if you breed for the ring.

[Crestonegsp]

The parent club (GSPCA)tells the AKC what the standard is and if you are a member of the parent club you are bound by their rules. The AKC only enforces the rules given to them they don't make up the breed standards.

I would not breed a bad bite, black or any fault. I always thought the reason to breed is to improve on what you have and the drag of the race also needs to be considered. If you introduce black into the GSP how will that improve the breed? Nothing personal against the black imports but I have never seen one that would make me want to breed to them and also I don't know where that black came from. Black is a dominate gene and had to be introduced into the liver GSP from another breed somewhere. There is no need to add black to the current gene pool since there are enough good liver dogs and to breed any dog with a fault is the complete wrong thing to do fo any reason.

[adogslife]

Black came from the Arkwright Pointer way back in the begining.
I'm of the opinion that breeders should know the history of the dogs they breed.

There have been black GSPs for over 20 years,all GSPs date back to the DK.
Unless outcrossed to another breed, all GSP breeders are breeding German dogs. Difference is,breeder's goals.

If you introduce black into the GSP how will that improve the breed?

This statement has not been thought out,IMO.

What if a litter had l/w and b/w and a b/w pup had the qualities you desired, would you breed to a l/w littermate just to avoid black?

Black, as a color, brings nothing bad to a breeding.

A well thought out pairing only breeds the best dogs. I didn't say perfect.
Some dogs though are more perfect than others.
Why some breeders choose to stick with what they have instead of disgarding and obtaining newer,better breeding stock still has me wondering. Trying to improve on weak pasterns and turned out feet is pointless when there are dogs without these faults in their lines. Breeding programs can begin producing quality litters with the first pairing by breeding correctly from the begining and then dealing with unexpected faults as they crop up.
Just my 2 cents

[postoakshorthairs]

I would not breed for bad bites or color......I hate bad bites, I hate white washed ears and heads, I hate blazes, I hate barking sob's runoff AA wanna be's, plodding plow driven I can walk faster than you hunt, field, show GSP DK I dont care which one. I have seen em in every aspect of the breed even some of my own. You folks need to wake up and smell the coffee.....Ted you asked bad bites or color? Which one would you breed and why one over the other? Now Ted I know you of all folks know better than that, c'mon man. And IMO notice I said "In My Opinion" some of the so called "Americanized Gsp's" Whatever that is could use some german bred blood in em.....notice again I said SOME of and not ALL of.....DNA is a joke....it shows parentage not breedage....you wanna tell me that gsps have not been bred to pointers? Again get ya a cup of coffee folks.....WAKE UP.....thats not lip serviced either thats facts......or maybe its just a mutation that lemon, orange, tan show up in our "Amercianzed Gsp's". I can give you 5 different lines right now with pointer in em.....and put money on it......How much ya got.....

+1

I would not vote to allow bad bites anymore the black but I doubt they need my vote to pass it but just tell me why you think it's important.
I will never own black just don't like the color plus can't handle the sun & heat aswell .DO as you have been doing but don't say 1 DQ is different then another untill it's no longer a DQ.

I follow most of these posts as an observer and let everyone have at it. I appreciate your honesty related to your feelings of dislike for the black gsp. You've mentioned several reasons why you're not a fan..a couple quoted above. Where I lose respect for your argument is, mixed in with all the ranting, your comment that you would stud out your dogs to a black bitch if black was ever voted in. So you're totaly against it, wouldn't own one and think they're inferior....but you would breed to one as long as she was a good hunter? JMO but seems a little hypocritical to me.

[JKP]

Very good. Always good to find out who can accept the standard of their breed and follow it and and those that can't. Makes me wonder why anyone would own a breed they don't like.

I don't have AKC dogs...I got tired of fluffy white dogs of unknown ability being represented as worthy. The AKC makes its money on dog shows, not field events...and it has no interest in requiring show dogs to show any ability...what would all those "lovers of the breed" do??

Ego is the reason we have 24", 50lb+ Britts, GSP that look suspiciously like EP, etc. More important to win by any means, to have the fastest car in the garage...than to breed dogs to standard. If folks want to require show dogs to perform (as I do), then performance dogs should be judged on more than run and point.

My hat is off to those folks that do both...too bad more folks here don't appreciate that.

[ezzy333]

Very good. Always good to find out who can accept the standard of their breed and follow it and and those that can't. Makes me wonder why anyone would own a breed they don't like.

Ezzy

Ezzy, do you believe we should just breed the way our Breed Club tells us the dogs should be bred?

In my time I have never seen a breed club tell anyone how to breed dogs, but I do subscribe to breeding dogs that qualify for their breed standard. Technically if a dog doesn't fit that standard they don't fit in the breed. If my next litter look like Boxers the people who insist that standards are not important, won't mind at all that I register them as Britts. And they might even have trouble accepting that they are Britts when I show them the papers. I don't think there is a breeder in existance that doesn't believe in standards, it's just that they want to set the boundries as to how far out their dogs can be and still be called GSP's or whatever breed you have.

Maybe the line should be right where it is when we stop to think about it. All sporting dogs require a sissor bite for a reason, working dogs that are required to hold on to something should have a underbite since it gives the lower jaw the leverage to do just that. ogs bred for speed should have a long leg and arched back and carry the tail low since that aids in producing speed and balance, and lap dogs should be small since they fit much better on our ever decreasing lap size.

Ezzy

[nikegundog]

Very good. Always good to find out who can accept the standard of their breed and follow it and and those that can't. Makes me wonder why anyone would own a breed they don't like.

Ezzy

Ezzy, do you believe we should just breed the way our Breed Club tells us the dogs should be bred?

In my time I have never seen a breed club tell anyone how to breed dogs, but I do subscribe to breeding dogs that qualify for their breed standard. Technically if a dog doesn't fit that standard they don't fit in the breed. If my next litter look like Boxers the people who insist that standards are not important, won't mind at all that I register them as Britts. And they might even have trouble accepting that they are Britts when I show them the papers. I don't think there is a breeder in existance that doesn't believe in standards, it's just that they want to set the boundries as to how far out their dogs can be and still be called GSP's or whatever breed you have.

Maybe the line should be right where it is when we stop to think about it. All sporting dogs require a sissor bite for a reason, working dogs that are required to hold on to something should have a underbite since it gives the lower jaw the leverage to do just that. ogs bred for speed should have a long leg and arched back and carry the tail low since that aids in producing speed and balance, and lap dogs should be small since they fit much better on our ever decreasing lap size.
Ezzy

Actually, the Labrador Retriever Club does tell people how NOT to breed, like this statement from there website "the Labrador is not one of those breeds and should not be bred or sold to the public as a pointing breed". If we are to follow the clubs standards no one should be breeding pointing labs, correct?

[Petra]

I have read this post and the question that I have , WHY did the founders of the breed club not allow the color black? All sorts of speculation, lack of knowledge of genes thinking the black would breed out the liver? Some other reason or possibly just personal , just did not like black, what was their reasoning and does it have merit? Personally, I think the show crowd does not want the black because a well built ( form=function ) black, is striking, the eye is drawn to it , afraid will take over the show rings? and we all know that there isn't any politics their. I have both colors so I am not coming from a biased position on the color, but having a dog with two ACL surgeries the conformation argument on any level is a lack of knowledge of why that trait is desirable, big example is hips and desired angulation and why it is needed (desirable) trait ( conformation ). I am digressing from my simple question. Everyone is giving their reasons why and most seem to be personal and that is why we have different breeds, personal preference, but a simple explanation on the original reason would be appreciated.

[JKP]

The reason black is DQ'ed or penalized is because its the dominant gene (in most cases). When you breed a black and a liver roan GWP or GSP, 50% of your pups are going to be black (if the black dog is Heterozygous). Breed 2 black dogs and you get 75% black pups and half of those will ONLY throw black pups if bred because they are Homozygous black. Standards written to discourage black are done so to keep breeds from becoming to black. The Euro clubs can allow it and control it....AKC clubs can't and any fad can easily take over.

Black coats in all the breeds I know are no better or worse. The black gene doesn't affect eye color or anything else as far as I have seen accept coat color.

[adogslife]

No one knows and if anyone does, they're not telling.

It could be that they simply didn't know that black existed or that the numbers were very low and believed black dogs would not make an impact on the breed as a whole. Maybe there was still mixed reviews on the black dogs and rumor that the color would be limited or eliminated from the breed?

Politics prevents black from being shown in the ring. I have not heard one solid reason for not allowing black in the ring.

[adogslife]

The reason black is DQ'ed or penalized is because its the dominant gene

Standards written to discourage black are done so to keep breeds from becoming to black

Anyone can breed a black GSP and have it AKC registered.
I do not see any evidence that black has taken over the GSP gene pool.

[raven34]

Howie
I will chime in!!!
FC AFC Wolf Plain Brooks Sally, MH has been bred 3x. First time to a White/liver ticked stud . She produced 6 pups. 5males 1 female. 3 were solid black and 3 solid liver. The second breeding once again white/liver ticked stud. She produced 9 puppies. 7 Females and 2 males. THREE solid black and SIX solid liver. The third time we bred her to a solid liver male. She had 7 pups. 1 female and 6 males. TWO solid black and 5 solid liver.
We are breeding her to our Tucker in the Spring. Very doughtful we will ever get ticked out of her, and from what she has produced in the past, more liver than black.

On another note, to answer Ted's question to me earlier.I am hopeful that someday Blacks are allowed to achieve a DC someday... Time will tell. Until then we will keep proving our BLACK girls worthiness in the performance venues as well as her GET (liver or black). I think if a black dog can prove itself in the field to the highest levels (whether it be FC AFC MH UT VC etc) then the dog has proven itself as an individual as something that could contribute to the breed. It would be great if I was able to take that same black dog and prove that her confirmation was just as desirable.
However, I can respect your personal preference, and that you prefer not to ever own a black pigmented dog. That is your choice. However I do agree that it would be a bit hypocritical as someone had mentioned that you feel SO strongly about this, but yet you would use your stud for breeding to a black female if she was a bird dog.
Jen

[AHGSP]

Breed 2 black dogs and you get 75% black pups and half of those will ONLY throw black pups if bred because they are Homozygous black

You get the same affect if you 2 solid liver dogs. Take a pup from that breed back to solid and your Homozygous solid. Ther's a solid black female AFC, FC that is Homozygous throws solid liver when bred to liver and white. I have yet to see or hear of a litter when bred black to Liver all pup were black. Not saying this couldn't happen. Hopefully the owner of the SWEET black female will chime in.

Howie,

I can give you an example of a Homozygous Black/White Ticked female bred to a Liver/White male that threw 100% Black, from this Summer. Doc Reynolds Nuke was bred to OM’S Rockin G’S Rusty Black Lace JH, a dog that I had been training and competing for the owner and she had 8 pups, 1 female and 7 males, ALL Black and White ticked. Both Lacey's Sire and Dam were both Black/White. This just to answer that it has happened and recently.

[AHGSP]

Everyone is giving their reasons why and most seem to be personal and that is why we have different breeds, personal preference, but a simple explanation on the original reason would be appreciated.

The most logical explanation that anyone has been able to ascertain, as a BEST GUESS mind you, was that our original G.S.(prior to the Pointer being included in the name) Standard was taken/effectively copied from the existing DK Standard of the time and that was prior to the acceptance of Black being written into the DK Standard. I doubt very seriously that there was any personal prejudice or politics involved, we just didn't know they existed effectively and our "Standard of the Day", was nothing more than a "snapshot in time" of what we knew.

Now as to why it hasn't been since added after several revisions........ That would be politics, prejudice, misinformation and a complete and utter lack of genetic understanding. That's just my "Wooden Nickel's" worth.

[birddog1968]

Black in EP's was shunned at one time too in the past.

[JKP]

What this discussion shows is that folks don't give a rats ^%$ about the concept of a breed. 35lb GSP, why not? crossbreed EP to your Setter for a little more run...why not?? .... black, tan, tri-color...why not??? But folks that feel this way don't have the "stones" to just say..."I don't care what a dog looks like, what breed you call it, as long as it runs like a rocket and finds birds??? So who's gonna "man up" and tell us about the crossbreeding?? no one will...but they'll look in you eye and tell you about the trophies they won with their dog of what ever breed they claim their dog is. The biggest curse of FT is that the format sucks all breeds to the middle and they start to look and act alike....the curse of the EP.

The founders of the DK (and DD) conceived the dog as a liver and white breed, preferably roan, to be more easily camouflaged in a blind or on stand. Now I have heard that you can't see a liver roan dog when hunting (pity all those other breeds that can never be found on point!!) but with GPS that is sort of just a lame excuse. What it boils down to is that there are folks that would rather keep a '49 Ford and others that would rather soup it up....and then urinate on your leg and tell you its just raining.

When I read discussions like this, I could not be happier to be out of the AKC....

[ezzy333]

What this discussion shows is that folks don't give a rats ^%$ about the concept of a breed. 35lb GSP, why not? crossbreed EP to your Setter for a little more run...why not?? .... black, tan, tri-color...why not??? But folks that feel this way don't have the "stones" to just say..."I don't care what a dog looks like, what breed you call it, as long as it runs like a rocket and finds birds??? So who's gonna "man up" and tell us about the crossbreeding?? no one will...but they'll look in you eye and tell you about the trophies they won with their dog of what ever breed they claim their dog is. The biggest curse of FT is that the format sucks all breeds to the middle and they start to look and act alike....the curse of the EP.

The founders of the DK (and DD) conceived the dog as a liver and white breed, preferably roan, to be more easily camouflaged in a blind or on stand. Now I have heard that you can't see a liver roan dog when hunting (pity all those other breeds that can never be found on point!!) but with GPS that is sort of just a lame excuse. What it boils down to is that there are folks that would rather keep a '49 Ford and others that would rather soup it up....and then urinate on your leg and tell you its just raining.

When I read discussions like this, I could not be happier to be out of the AKC....

For someone who is so happy you sure like to get in the middle of every discussion and repeat what you posted in the last one. Since you want nothing to do with it it would be to everyones advantage if you just skipped these topics.

Ezzy

[adogslife]

My hunting season is in the winter and I can't find a white dog in the snow, white is a flag for waterfowl and a dog with substance
(height/weight) will perform better in cold water and as a versatile in general.

[ACooper]

Black has not "taken over" in Germany or anywhere else that it isn't a DQ, just the same black is not going to take over here.

[JKP]

Black has not "taken over" in Germany or anywhere else that it isn't a DQ, just the same black is not going to take over here.

Black CAN'T take over....its simple...the club steps in and limits it...AKC clubs can't do that.

[JKP]

The Euro clubs also issue registration papers....formulate breeding policy...performance requirements...disclosure rules...etc. When the % of black pups gets too high, the word goes round and breeders adjust because they know the club can step in. In addition, when the % of black dogs gets too high, it gets harder to find good liver/roan stud dogs because breeding black to black isn't allowed. You also can't breed black to a solid brown dog (solid black dogs are not desired). So, a black dog is worth less to a breeder....why put your time into a black stud dog that will be used less if at all.

[AHGSP]

Thanx for calling BS Howie, you beat me to it. I've heard this speil before and that is exactly what it is. They DO NOT Regulate how the Blacks are bred. I get so sick of this "superiority complex BS"! Should you like to disagree JKP, PLEASE POST A LINK to such information from one of the Governing Bodies of either the DK or DD stating as such. I and I'm sure others, would love to see it for our perusal.

[adogslife]

JKP is correct,when based on his knowledge of DDs.

[AHGSP]

JKP is correct,when based on his knowledge of DDs.

TY for clarifying, but we're talking GSP's/DK's.
Just for giggles and my personal curiosity , could you post or PM a link to the VDDGNA page on this please? If it's not on the VDDGNA, I can use the translator, but would be easier in English if possible.

[Petra]

I think AHGSP, has probably the most plausible answer to my question, and anyone that thinks black would take over just needs to go to game fair in MN , you will see every Lab in Minnesota and surrounding states there, and at least 75% + are yellow, can anyone say recessive gene. Anyway the question was bite or color, I'm going to be greedy and say that I want the dog to be conformationally correct (don't argue what that" is ", we know how arguments on the definition of" is "ends up) and I will go one step further because I want the dog to have the right stuff between the ears , with all of that who cares if the dog is liver or black. Moose was going to sit back and watch the fireworks on this topic, now that someone is opening the pandoras box on the topic of" SPECIAL" color GSPs this is a mild topic. Which leads to my next question , What is with the color issue coming up as a topic with GSPs more than I have seen discussed with any other breed ?

[raven34]

Howie
Thank you for posting the link for the DK's. I really enjoyed viewing it. Lot of REALLY nice looking dogs on there...A look that is much to be desired IMO.
Nice heads, outstanding chests, Extreme intensity on point.
Much to be admired
This may be another topic but i am gonna ask....Those of you who have had a litter with black offspring and liver offspring. Do you notice a difference in their overall behavior as individuals within the litter. I am just curious. We have had three and I have noticed the same in each...
Jen

[AHGSP]

Howie
Thank you for posting the link for the DK's. I really enjoyed viewing it. Lot of REALLY nice looking dogs on there...A look that is much to be desired IMO.
Nice heads, outstanding chests, Extreme intensity on point.
Much to be admired
This may be another topic but i am gonna ask....Those of you who have had a litter with black offspring and liver offspring. Do you notice a difference in their overall behavior as individuals within the litter. I am just curious. We have had three and I have noticed the same in each...
Jen

Are you looking for me to throw that bomb? Or do you want to see if others have seen/experienced what we've talked about?