Shorthairs, since we're on the topic of color...

[Stoneface]

Saw the post on blue Weims and it kinda made me choke. I don't see anything wrong with breeding show dogs, but the hypocrisy eats me up. They say that they set the standard to describe the ideal member of that breed for doing what it was meant to do, so all the breeders should breed to that standard. Well, what benefit does a silver Weim have over a blue? For that matter, why are black or black/white Shorthairs disqualified from the show ring? I know they say it's because it suggests an outcross somewhere, but, I mean, come one, they recognize liver dogs... if I'm not mistaken there are plenty of liver Pointers out there. Additionally, why in the heck does it matter if the Shorthair's tail is docked if he's to be shown? If a Shorthair was flawless but had an undocked tail, why should that dog not be allowed to show?

Can anybody make sense of this?

[raven34]

Why don't we just start a thread called " THE HOTTEST TOPICS of 2011"...LOL

[Cajun Casey]

The standards are drawn by a group of vested interests and the majority rules. If you don't like it, then get involved and change it. They don't care for white dogs in the ring either and everyone who knows GSP breed history knows that black does trace back to a documented outcross to an Arkwright black pointer. The infant GSPCA adopted a archaic German standard that excluded black and it remains so until this day.

[steamer]

http://www.almostheavengsps.netkennel.c ... 8&HDR=Home look under black gsp seems like a pretty good explanation of the color part of the breed standard.

[Stoneface]

Don't all Shorthairs date back to Pointers?

I'm not involved with Shorthairs any more, or show dogs, so it's not my place. I can gripe, though! Besides specifically Shorthairs, conformation groups in general just seem to let their actions too often contradict what they say they stand for. For example, if there is one ideal standard for a given breed, why are standards changed?

[jasonw99]

Saw the post on blue Weims and it kinda made me choke. I don't see anything wrong with breeding show dogs, but the hypocrisy eats me up. They say that they set the standard to describe the ideal member of that breed for doing what it was meant to do, so all the breeders should breed to that standard. Well, what benefit does a silver Weim have over a blue? For that matter, why are black or black/white Shorthairs disqualified from the show ring? I know they say it's because it suggests an outcross somewhere, but, I mean, come one, they recognize liver dogs... if I'm not mistaken there are plenty of liver Pointers out there. Additionally, why in the heck does it matter if the Shorthair's tail is docked if he's to be shown? If a Shorthair was flawless but had an undocked tail, why should that dog not be allowed to show?

Can anybody make sense of this?

if you own pointers why do u care about shorthairs? starting posts to stir the pot doesn't make sense


while we are on pointers. why would anyone own a pointer with a sickled tail. or a tail that touches the dogs head.

[Outlaw]

Huge topic that's been literally worn out....but that being said there a few key points to remember:

The shorthair or DK was a culmination of many "inputs" from various breeds to create a "purebred" line of new dog breed called the DK (shorthair)-this was in the 1800's for God's sake....later they wanted to add some more "input" to get pigment this was still in the 1800's and maybe touching 1900...black was created in the breed....when they finally began importing them into the US in the 1920's and 30's the Germans and Austrian certainly didn't send their best stuff to the US in fact Dr. Charles Thornton (one of the original importers) was somewhat disappointed at what they sent him originally, so he made a trip over again to pick his own dogs the second go round...he also picked a sire and bred a female, bringing her back to the US in whelp. The Germans and other prized the black dogs and didn't let them be exported at the time....so when the US needed to recognize the breed for registry...the only "standard" models they had here to register were Liver, liver roan and liver and white, patched and ticked....and so the standard was born for the US....not until decades later did Europe release the black and white dogs for export...by then the standard had long been established here. Anybody can debate the "outcrosses" that could have happened there or here or anywhere since, but the shorthair was developed as a breed by being an outcross originally, to produce a new line/breed of dog. The Spanish and Fench Arkwright pointers (black influence in the shorthair) were also outcrosses to get solid black, they bred them that way for royalty...heck almost every sporting breed started as an outcross....they just didn't come to earth magically out of vapors...The Black and white shorthairs are capable of legally being accepted and running every venue other than the AKC show ring, but many are shown in other "bench" shows of different organizations and registries...this develops alot of conversation over something that most on this forum wouldn't care about...the show ring. I personally believe the reason nobady has "pushed" the issue of updating the acceptance in registry is because most owning black and whites have little interest in the show ring and the effort to push for acceptance just to participate in that venue is not worth it, since if you are dead set on showing a black and white you can do so in UKC and Int. KC venues already.....and everything else venue wise is already good to go....bottom line...Ford, Chevy, Dodge, GSP,Pointer, Brittany,lab,liver,liver and white, roan, Black and White.....it's merely a matter of personal preference...laws and standards have been on the books for hundreds of years and some change and some never do, usually because the effort is not worth the outcome....it's still illegal to spit on the sidewalk in most states, but nobody has every pushed to change the law....why...just not that important to anyone I'd guess.

[jimbo&rooster]

Saw the post on blue Weims and it kinda made me choke. I don't see anything wrong with breeding show dogs, but the hypocrisy eats me up. They say that they set the standard to describe the ideal member of that breed for doing what it was meant to do, so all the breeders should breed to that standard. Well, what benefit does a silver Weim have over a blue? For that matter, why are black or black/white Shorthairs disqualified from the show ring? I know they say it's because it suggests an outcross somewhere, but, I mean, come one, they recognize liver dogs... if I'm not mistaken there are plenty of liver Pointers out there. Additionally, why in the heck does it matter if the Shorthair's tail is docked if he's to be shown? If a Shorthair was flawless but had an undocked tail, why should that dog not be allowed to show?

Can anybody make sense of this?

Where the heck have you been for the last month? Year?

Jim

[ezzy333]

Guess what you are all saying is forget whatever you don't like and just do what ever you like. Guess we are beginning to understand some of the problems cropping up in our different breeds. I love prick ears and Blue Mearlesbut don't know if I should call them GSP's or Pointers.

Ezzy

[Stoneface]

Jimbo, I just rejoined this board within the last month.

why would anyone own a pointer with a sickled tail. or a tail that touches the dogs head.

Because, birddogs are unique in that they carrie their brains in the top half of their tail. The continental folks don't realize when you dock your puppies tails, you're actually performing a lobotamy.

if you own pointers why do u care about shorthairs? starting posts to stir the pot doesn't make sense.... while we are on pointers.

I used to have Shorthairs and it drove me nuts. I didn't realize I was coming off like I was stirring anything up, so I'll shut my mouth and won't post anymore on the subject. Honestly, sorry if I gave that impression.

[Cajun Casey]

It always bothers me when someone starts challenging breed standards without having any vested interest in the breed, particularly when those standards involve surgical alteration. A little too ARish for my taste.

[raven34]

Stoneface
Its just a contoversial topic....It always comes up...Can't say its not humerous and entertaining to hear people's opinions.....makes you keep coming on the site to check out the chatter that goes back and forth...

Kinda ends up a topic that you would classify as "beating a dead horse"
Jen

[AHGSP]

Huge topic that's been literally worn out....but that being said there a few key points to remember:

The shorthair or DK was a culmination of many "inputs" from various breeds to create a "purebred" line of new dog breed called the DK (shorthair)-this was in the 1800's for God's sake....later they wanted to add some more "input" to get pigment this was still in the 1800's and maybe touching 1900...black was created in the breed....when they finally began importing them into the US in the 1920's and 30's the Germans and Austrian certainly didn't send their best stuff to the US in fact Dr. Charles Thornton (one of the original importers) was somewhat disappointed at what they sent him originally, so he made a trip over again to pick his own dogs the second go round...he also picked a sire and bred a female, bringing her back to the US in whelp. The Germans and other prized the black dogs and didn't let them be exported at the time....so when the US needed to recognize the breed for registry...the only "standard" models they had here to register were Liver, liver roan and liver and white, patched and ticked....and so the standard was born for the US....not until decades later did Europe release the black and white dogs for export...by then the standard had long been established here. Anybody can debate the "outcrosses" that could have happened there or here or anywhere since, but the shorthair was developed as a breed by being an outcross originally, to produce a new line/breed of dog. The Spanish and Fench Arkwright pointers (black influence in the shorthair) were also outcrosses to get solid black, they bred them that way for royalty...heck almost every sporting breed started as an outcross....they just didn't come to earth magically out of vapors...The Black and white shorthairs are capable of legally being accepted and running every venue other than the AKC show ring, but many are shown in other "bench" shows of different organizations and registries...this develops alot of conversation over something that most on this forum wouldn't care about...the show ring. I personally believe the reason nobady has "pushed" the issue of updating the acceptance in registry is because most owning black and whites have little interest in the show ring and the effort to push for acceptance just to participate in that venue is not worth it, since if you are dead set on showing a black and white you can do so in UKC and Int. KC venues already.....and everything else venue wise is already good to go....bottom line...Ford, Chevy, Dodge, GSP,Pointer, Brittany,lab,liver,liver and white, roan, Black and White.....it's merely a matter of personal preference...laws and standards have been on the books for hundreds of years and some change and some never do, usually because the effort is not worth the outcome....it's still illegal to spit on the sidewalk in most states, but nobody has every pushed to change the law....why...just not that important to anyone I'd guess.

Ummmm, I think you are off just a bit on a few things. The Arkwright infusion was in 1907, not "still in the 1800's and maybe touching 1900" and Arkwright was most certainly NOT French, nor were his Pointers. The infusion was due to a concern about pigment and an effort to "raise the head on scent", having absolutely nothing to do with "outcrosses to get solid black, they bred them that way for royalty". Our original Standard was a mirror image of the "Pre-Black/Prussian" German Standard, thus why no inclusion of Black in our original Standard. As far as no one pushing the issue..... Where have you been for the past 10 years of GSPCA voting? The Black issue has been a "Battle Royale" and has been voted on at least 3 times of recent memory, with quite a great deal of heated debate, misinformation, slander and outright division amongst those that would like to see the color legitimized and those dead set against it.

[slistoe]

why would anyone own a pointer with a sickled tail. or a tail that touches the dogs head.

Because, birddogs are unique in that they carrie their brains in the top half of their tail. The continental folks don't realize when you dock your puppies tails, you're actually performing a lobotamy.

Now that is funny!