Opinions on Elhews.

[Stoneface]

The birddog world is full of mixed messages when it comes to the Elhews. You crack open any issue of PDJ and flip back to the Pointers and practically every ad has the "Elhew" in there somewhere. By the same token, though, you ask just about any Pointer man about the line and they'll scoff and say they're not worth a doggone. Too soft, won't run, etc.

1. What is your general opinion of Elhew? Good or bad?

2. If you like them, why do you think they get such a bad wrap by so many?

3. If you don't like them, why do you think they've enjoyed the success they have and why have they and are they in such high demand?

4. What are the most prominent pros and cons of the Elhews?

[Cajun Casey]

The only dog killer pointing dog I've ever owned was Miller bred, the only pointers I've been certain would bite me, given the chance, were Elhew. I don't like the personalities on some of them. They are pretty. Some have bad knees. Nothing special, kind of like mashed potatoes in a box - basically they are what you make of them.

[birddog1968]

The only dog killer pointing dog

[Stoneface]

I think she means "the only dog-killing pointing dog..."

[bigsugar]

Let's hear your opinion of them Rowdy.

[hustonmc]

If you haven't noticed by now, you surely will see shortly, that many of these "opinions" you are hearing are based on plain ole ignorance.

But to narrow down and answer your question, let's first determine what an "Elhew" dog is. It's no secret the amount of birddogs that Mr. Wehle produced, but he didn't obviously keep all of them or would of had to have a 100acre kennel. He was an itelligent breeder as well as an intelligent marketer. Bob has his todum pole and dogs on his property and close conifadaunts. But he also sold lots and lots and lots of dogs. He had to have a way to get rid of dogs that didn't meet his great expectations. He of coursed knocked many in the head but he needed money to operate his hobby, so he sold dogs too. So obviously he marketed his line and hunters were lining up to have one, paying top price as well. Before long about everyone in the country had an "Elhew" dog. Then people attempting to become breeders themselves would read a book or 2, determine themselves experts, and start crossing their "Elhew" dog with their neighbors "Elhew" dog. Now these dogs did not end up with an Elhew as a prefix, but for marketing purposes nothing stopped then from calling them Joe's Elhew Pride, or Bob's Elhew Strike. Obviously the hunter that couldn't or refused to spend the high price for a Wehle "Elhew" dog sought out these local "Elhew" dogs. As the snowball started getting larger these dogs didn't even have to be bred to anything with "Elhew" in it's pedigree, just the "Elhew" 2 generations removed from Wehle's kennel and they would name their dog Elhew something or other. Just saying you had an Elhew dog and you had yourself a breeding fee. Of course Mr. Wehle paid no mind because he knew his dogs and knew these dogs were still better then what others were breeding and it was marketing his name, and pumping up the price of his left over dogs. Before long there were and still "Elhew" dogs all across the country, but are these really Elhew dogs?????

Now lets look at the current succes of Elhew dogs in todays game. You have to look no further then the Hall Of Fame the last 2 years: Elhew Swami, Elhew Sunflower, Elhew Hannabell. They were all out of the same bitch, Hanna's Elhew Lou. Was she an "Elhew" dog? Her top side was out of Baize's Elhew Knickabee, out of Elhew Mikers Mike and Elhew Hibicus. Her bottom side was void of any Elhew at least up close. Now Swami was out of Elhew Jefferson a son of Snakefoot definatley an Elhew dog without question, straight from Bob's prized totum pole. Sunflower was straight out of Snakefoot, but that puts us close to Elhew Strike, who is from Hooks Bounty Hunter...........was he an "Elhew" dog, he had Elhew in there somewhere. On that note I won't even get started with Guard Rail, some call him and Elhew dog, confused yet? And last but not lease Elhew Hannabell, I leave her last because she is out of Elhew Hobo, who just so happens to be out of one of the all time producing "Elhew" dogs.......Elhew Fibber McGee, who is of Elhew Snakefoot. So I dropped Elhew Fibber McGee in there and now we are going places. As mentioned he is of Elhew Snakefoot and......Deep Creek Kate. Deep Creek Kate doesn't have that famous Elhew prefix, she was out of Dunn's Fearless Bud. But lets looks at what Fibber McGee has produced. Last I knew of he has produced 58 Champions, INCREDIBLE!!!!! You can't even look in American Field Magazine without seeing placements from dogs out of Fibber. So we can't even argue about the success, can we? But can we call Fibber McGee and Elhew dog, I guess that's the question? How much Elhew is Elhew? Bottom line, some of the most succesful Field Trail "Elhew" dogs are an outcross. In turn it'll be hard to find many of your good hunting dogs without some Elhew as well.

This thread can go bonkers, I'm sure. But to argue that Elhew bred dogs have not made a positive influence on Field Trial and hunting dogs across the country would be pretty stupid. The question you have to ask yourself is how much Elhew constitutes and Elhew dog vs. one with an Elhew Prefix.

[Stoneface]

Just like hustonmc preluded to, for me to give my opinion would be ignorant.

... many of these "opinions" you are hearing are based on plain ole ignorance.

I know how much I appreciate Wehle's putting all his knowledge into print and leaving behind enough of himself to follow on the paper trail, but I've not been very involved with Elhews. I think Bob Wehle was a scholar and a gentleman and absolutely brilliant, but I couldn't say about his dogs.

I will say that his record on paper is impressive and although tons of people will talk about him outcrossing, he didn't do it quite as much as folks think. Let me rephrase, he would outcross, but hardly ever addedd anything to his breeding program that came out of most of these outcrosses. There was almost two decades without adding outcrossed puppies in the Elhew probram between Red Water Rex in the '60s and Dunn's Fearless Bud in the '80s. And having your dogs fill even half the pedigree of HOF inductee after HOF inductee, I think, is a huge indicator that your dogs have got it going on. Like we used to say back in the '90s... all that and a bag of chips.

What do you think, BS?

[bigsugar]

A little Elhew is ok. A lot of Elhew is bad.

[Big Dave]

Don't forget he outcrossed to Guard Rail and Hook's Bounty Hunter in between Red Water Rex and Dunn's Fearless Bud.

[bigsugar]

Guard Rail is an Elhew bred dog so I wouldn't think it to be an outcross.

[Big Dave]

Guard Rail's grandparents-Ch Potato Patch Sue and Ch A Rambling Rebel had zero Elhew blood, his other two grandparents Penny White Cloud and Ch Elhew Sundown were half Elhew.

[Stoneface]

Yeah, I meant Hook's Bounty Hunter, not Dunn's Fearless Bud. Still getting down the Pointer names. I wouldn't have mixed up Clown and Greif.

[MHWH]

I read it here and have heard it other places. Why do people say Wehle was a master marketer?

I have read his books, and read stuff about him, and spoke with people who knew him. I never got this
impression. What i mean is there are those that call him this and it it with a negative connotation. There
is nothing wrong with marketing in any business.

I don't say i am an expert on Wehle, but I have never had this satisfactorily explained as of yet.

Anyone here have an idea, the facts, etc.?

Mike

[ElhewPointer]

Ill stay out of this one. HA

[Cajun Casey]

I read it here and have heard it other places. Why do people say Wehle was a master marketer?

I have read his books, and read stuff about him, and spoke with people who knew him. I never got this
impression. What i mean is there are those that call him this and it it with a negative connotation. There
is nothing wrong with marketing in any business.

I don't say i am an expert on Wehle, but I have never had this satisfactorily explained as of yet.

Anyone here have an idea, the facts, etc.?

Mike

Look up the articles The Blood Horse published in late summer, 2002, memorializing him and you may get a little better picture. Unfortunately, his highly promoted studs have been linked to the coffin bone problems that have been recently sensationalized.

[ElhewPointer]

If you haven't noticed by now, you surely will see shortly, that many of these "opinions" you are hearing are based on plain ole ignorance.

But to narrow down and answer your question, let's first determine what an "Elhew" dog is. It's no secret the amount of birddogs that Mr. Wehle produced, but he didn't obviously keep all of them or would of had to have a 100acre kennel. He was an itelligent breeder as well as an intelligent marketer. Bob has his todum pole and dogs on his property and close conifadaunts. But he also sold lots and lots and lots of dogs. He had to have a way to get rid of dogs that didn't meet his great expectations. He of coursed knocked many in the head but he needed money to operate his hobby, so he sold dogs too. So obviously he marketed his line and hunters were lining up to have one, paying top price as well. Before long about everyone in the country had an "Elhew" dog. Then people attempting to become breeders themselves would read a book or 2, determine themselves experts, and start crossing their "Elhew" dog with their neighbors "Elhew" dog. Now these dogs did not end up with an Elhew as a prefix, but for marketing purposes nothing stopped then from calling them Joe's Elhew Pride, or Bob's Elhew Strike. Obviously the hunter that couldn't or refused to spend the high price for a Wehle "Elhew" dog sought out these local "Elhew" dogs. As the snowball started getting larger these dogs didn't even have to be bred to anything with "Elhew" in it's pedigree, just the "Elhew" 2 generations removed from Wehle's kennel and they would name their dog Elhew something or other. Just saying you had an Elhew dog and you had yourself a breeding fee. Of course Mr. Wehle paid no mind because he knew his dogs and knew these dogs were still better then what others were breeding and it was marketing his name, and pumping up the price of his left over dogs. Before long there were and still "Elhew" dogs all across the country, but are these really Elhew dogs?????

Now lets look at the current succes of Elhew dogs in todays game. You have to look no further then the Hall Of Fame the last 2 years: Elhew Swami, Elhew Sunflower, Elhew Hannabell. They were all out of the same bitch, Hanna's Elhew Lou. Was she an "Elhew" dog? Her top side was out of Baize's Elhew Knickabee, out of Elhew Mikers Mike and Elhew Hibicus. Her bottom side was void of any Elhew at least up close. Now Swami was out of Elhew Jefferson a son of Snakefoot definatley an Elhew dog without question, straight from Bob's prized totum pole. Sunflower was straight out of Snakefoot, but that puts us close to Elhew Strike, who is from Hooks Bounty Hunter...........was he an "Elhew" dog, he had Elhew in there somewhere. On that note I won't even get started with Guard Rail, some call him and Elhew dog, confused yet? And last but not lease Elhew Hannabell, I leave her last because she is out of Elhew Hobo, who just so happens to be out of one of the all time producing "Elhew" dogs.......Elhew Fibber McGee, who is of Elhew Snakefoot. So I dropped Elhew Fibber McGee in there and now we are going places. As mentioned he is of Elhew Snakefoot and......Deep Creek Kate. Deep Creek Kate doesn't have that famous Elhew prefix, she was out of Dunn's Fearless Bud. But lets looks at what Fibber McGee has produced. Last I knew of he has produced 58 Champions, INCREDIBLE!!!!! You can't even look in American Field Magazine without seeing placements from dogs out of Fibber. So we can't even argue about the success, can we? But can we call Fibber McGee and Elhew dog, I guess that's the question? How much Elhew is Elhew? Bottom line, some of the most succesful Field Trail "Elhew" dogs are an outcross. In turn it'll be hard to find many of your good hunting dogs without some Elhew as well.

This thread can go bonkers, I'm sure. But to argue that Elhew bred dogs have not made a positive influence on Field Trial and hunting dogs across the country would be pretty stupid. The question you have to ask yourself is how much Elhew constitutes and Elhew dog vs. one with an Elhew Prefix.

In my opinion Fibber is an Elhew dog, no doubt. A son of Snakefoot out of Deep Creek Kate(Dunn's Fearless Bud x Elhew Molly) Bob was the breeder of the dog, that makes him 100%. Bob was Elhew, so if he stuck the prefix on the dog it is an Elhew dog. Same goes with Strike. And same goes for Bama, Jill and Kate.

[hustonmc]

In my opinion Fibber is an Elhew dog, no doubt. A son of Snakefoot out of Deep Creek Kate(Dunn's Fearless Bud x Elhew Molly) Bob was the breeder of the dog, that makes him 100%. Bob was Elhew, so if he stuck the prefix on the dog it is an Elhew dog. Same goes with Strike. And same goes for Bama, Jill and Kate.

I'll agree with that all day long. And Molley being of Snakefoot as well.
Somebody has got to play devil's advocate

[MHWH]

OK, Cajun I read the article.

I still don't get it. This article said some nice things about Wehle and his dogs,
but I fail to see anything that indicates he was a master marketer?

Maybe you can help me, and point out what i am missing. This not sarcastic, I am
honestly looking for an answer to my original post here on this thread.

Anyone else know why this description of Wehle comes up nearly every time there
is a discussion of him? I have never read or heard why this is something that is
tied to him. I am starting to believe it is unjustified and is only to reamrks of people who
did not agree with him on certain subjects or are just jealous of him for whatever reason.

Sure would like to know where it comes from, and why.

Mike

[ElhewPointer]

OK, Cajun I read the article.

I still don't get it. This article said some nice things about Wehle and his dogs,
but I fail to see anything that indicates he was a master marketer?

Maybe you can help me, and point out what i am missing. This not sarcastic, I am
honestly looking for an answer to my original post here on this thread.

Anyone else know why this description of Wehle comes up nearly every time there
is a discussion of him? I have never read or heard why this is something that is
tied to him. I am starting to believe it is unjustified and is only to reamrks of people who
did not agree with him on certain subjects or are just jealous of him for whatever reason.

Sure would like to know where it comes from, and why.

Mike

Just ask what search engine Cajun uses and you'll have your answer.

IMO, a lot of it has to do with the ol saying "Jealousy and envy are the root of all evils". It pissed a lot of people of that he was getting what he was getting for pups in the 80's and 90's. As far as "marketing", he wrote 2 books, made a video talking about his theories, ideas and methods. Was some of this beating his own chest? Yep, sure was. But, he was successful and his dogs won in the grouse woods and in SD trials. And hundreds of them made great hunting companions. IMO, it has a lot to do with the whole, "why didn't I think of that first". He did a TON for the breed as did a few of the select great breeders. But, he wasnt shy about letting people know it. Its no different than some of the select breeders of today. Only instead of getting $2k for a pup, they get $25k for a derby.

[RayGubernat]

It is a fact that Mr. Whele was getting $1250 for an eight week old pointer pup, when you could buy the very best field trial breeding for $250 - 400 for a champion bred pup. That was back in the seventies. It is a fact that his price was non- neogtiable. It is a fact that HE or rather, his staff, picked your pup for you. You had nothing to say about it.

I know these things for fact because I briefly entertained the prospect of buying an Elhew pup back then and that is what I was told.

I believe the pricing for his pups reached $2500 just prior to his death. At that time, a champion bred pup could be obtained for $500 - 1000 at that time. He deliberately maintained a considerable premium for the purchase of a dog that could be registered witht the "Elhew" prefix.

There is no question that he was a master marketeer. There is no question that he promoted himself and his kennel very effectively. There is no question that many pointer breeders were unable to have similar success in selling puppies.

I would suspect that, among pointer breeders, the reaction to his name and that of his kennel ranged from admiration to gruding respect to burning jealousy. They say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery and there have been and continue to be a number of kennels who advertise that they breed "Elhew " dogs.

RayG

[tn red]

Anybody have a number of how many pups Wehle bred ?

[RayGubernat]

Red -

I don't know, but I would bet real money that Whele bred at least 10 litters a year and more likely the number was closer to twenty per year and he did that for more than fifty years. An average litter size is 7 dogs so that is somewhere between 3500 -7000 dogs.

That is a heck of a lot of Genesee Cream Ale.

RayG