Broke Or Not Broke

[Ron R]

If a dog holds birds till flush, (steady to wing and shot does not apply to this scenario) backs, and retrieves naturaly without ever being corrected would you concider it broke? I know my answer and I will comment after hearing some responses.

[Sharon]

The definition of broke depends on what the handler wants. When hunting I want the dog to break on the shot so the bird is not lost. In trials that won't do the job.

[Buckeye_V]

Broke = steady to wing and shot.

[Ron R]

Broke = steady to wing and shot.

OK, the dog is naturaly steady to wing and shot. Is it broke?

[Cajun Casey]

A broke dog does not release on its own, IMO.

[topher40]

"Broke" actually refers more to the re inforcement brought on during the breaking process. This process ensures a higher level of steadiness (albeit this is 100% fool proof). Same idea as force fetching really, even a natural retriever will quit you eventually. Would you trust a "naturally broke" horse? I doubt it, you would still train it the same. It would be easier than a renegade to break but would still need the manners. Animals like this are referred to as "biddable".

[hustonmc]

Broke = steady to wing and shot.

OK, the dog is naturaly steady to wing and shot. Is it broke?

In My Opinion, No. The dog is steady because of what momma and daddy put in him. But, he doesn't know he's supposed to stay steady, if at any time dog feels incling to move, he will. Therefore it is a natural behavior, not a learned behavior. This goes back to the old saying "born broke." We can't make a correction if dog never makes a mistake, some never will, others it's a matter of time. It like the saying, don't fix what ain't broke. Dog isn't broke figuratively or literally. Just my opinion.

[DogNewbie]

Broke = steady to wing and shot.

OK, the dog is naturaly steady to wing and shot. Is it broke?

In My Opinion, No. The dog is steady because of what momma and daddy put in him. But, he doesn't know he's supposed to stay steady, if at any time dog feels incling to move, he will. Therefore it is a natural behavior, not a learned behavior. This goes back to the old saying "born broke." We can't make a correction if dog never makes a mistake, some never will, others it's a matter of time. It like the saying, don't fix what ain't broke. Dog isn't broke figuratively or literally. Just my opinion.

+1 not broke but may not need to be broke.

[Ron R]

I kind of thought that I might be on the minority side of this. I agree with what has been said. In my opinion, a dog isn't broke until it knows it HAS to perform a certain task, be it retrieve, back, stws. If they're doing something right naturaly they are doing it because they want to and I believe they need to learn that they have to. Like mentioned earlier, they need to be reliable and not decide to quit on ya.

[ElhewPointer]

"Broke" actually refers more to the re inforcement brought on during the breaking process. This process ensures a higher level of steadiness (albeit this is 100% fool proof). Same idea as force fetching really, even a natural retriever will quit you eventually. Would you trust a "naturally broke" horse? I doubt it, you would still train it the same. It would be easier than a renegade to break but would still need the manners. Animals like this are referred to as "biddable".

So if you have a horse that you have raised its whole life. And one day at the age of 3, you go out to the pasture and throw a headstall and saddle on him and ride him around and he's a perfect gentleman. You just consider that biddable? Just wondering.

[bb560m]

If a dog holds birds till flush, (steady to wing and shot does not apply to this scenario) backs, and retrieves naturaly without ever being corrected would you concider it broke? I know my answer and I will comment after hearing some responses.

if you want him stws i wouldn't consider broke until you put them in very difficult situations like flushing into his face, behind him or blocking his view, etc. and he doesn't move. too hard to tell if you want stws, but probably not.

[birddogger]

Broke means different things to different people. If he is broke to do what you want and broke to the standards of the venue you are participating in, he is broke. JMO.

Charlie

[kensfishing]

"Broke" actually refers more to the re inforcement brought on during the breaking process. This process ensures a higher level of steadiness (albeit this is 100% fool proof). Same idea as force fetching really, even a natural retriever will quit you eventually. Would you trust a "naturally broke" horse? I doubt it, you would still train it the same. It would be easier than a renegade to break but would still need the manners. Animals like this are referred to as "biddable".

I have to disagree with the statement that a natural retriever will quit. That's wrong. Watched it too many times.

[birddog1968]

"Broke" actually refers more to the re inforcement brought on during the breaking process. This process ensures a higher level of steadiness (albeit this is 100% fool proof). Same idea as force fetching really, even a natural retriever will quit you eventually. Would you trust a "naturally broke" horse? I doubt it, you would still train it the same. It would be easier than a renegade to break but would still need the manners. Animals like this are referred to as "biddable".

I have to disagree with the statement that a natural retriever will quit. That's wrong. Watched it too many times.

Your statement "thats wrong" is as inaccurate as the statement you responded too....some won't quit some may.....there is nothing there to say one way or the other definitively.

[Ron R]

"Broke" actually refers more to the re inforcement brought on during the breaking process. This process ensures a higher level of steadiness (albeit this is 100% fool proof). Same idea as force fetching really, even a natural retriever will quit you eventually. Would you trust a "naturally broke" horse? I doubt it, you would still train it the same. It would be easier than a renegade to break but would still need the manners. Animals like this are referred to as "biddable".

I have to disagree with the statement that a natural retriever will quit. That's wrong. Watched it too many times.

I don't think that it was meant to be a blanket statement but rather the odds of them quitting or dropping it half way to you are very likely to happen unless they are force broke. There are always exceptions to the rule...I should know because I have one.

[kensfishing]

I've got several, and finished at that. Eight in fact without force breaking.

[jimbo&rooster]

[quote="ElhewPointer] So if you have a horse that you have raised its whole life. And one day at the age of 3, you go out to the pasture and throw a headstall and saddle on him and ride him around and he's a perfect gentleman. You just consider that biddable? Just wondering.[/quote]

I just had this conversation the other day..... No I dont think that this horse is "broke". I would say that his horse is biddable, and has allowed you to ride it. Much like the dogs, I dont call it broke unless it knows that it had better do what you ask or its gona get the business....

I would say that there are probably 1000's of labs as an example, that go to the field and marsh every fall/winter, that are natural retrievers, some with more drive to retrieve than sense.... but at some point most will refuse a retrieve for one reason or another. I feel the same in birddogs. Unless the dog in question has been taught whatever level of steadiness and knows that it is mandatory to follow the "rules', then while i would say you have a helluva dog, I would not say you have a broke dog.

Jim

[birddog1968]

Labs quiting is a little bit different than pointing dogs quitting.

A lab/retriever quitting retrieving would be like a pointer thats pointed its whole career quit pointing.....not likely I agree.
I also think peoples definitions of a retrieve are different, I want the polish and poise on the whole retrieve and until I take the bird .


Broke is when a dog is so good there is nothing left to train

[ultracarry]

Someone's signature says it best... There broke until they break. I have always looked at that and laughed because it couldn't be more true.

Broke - went through breaking process.

[ezzy333]

"Broke" actually refers more to the re inforcement brought on during the breaking process. This process ensures a higher level of steadiness (albeit this is 100% fool proof). Same idea as force fetching really, even a natural retriever will quit you eventually. Would you trust a "naturally broke" horse? I doubt it, you would still train it the same. It would be easier than a renegade to break but would still need the manners. Animals like this are referred to as "biddable".

I have to disagree with the statement that a natural retriever will quit. That's wrong. Watched it too many times.

Your statement "thats wrong" is as inaccurate as the statement you responded too....some won't quit some may.....there is nothing there to say one way or the other definitively.

Very true but it is just as likely to happen with a dog that is broke. Dogs are no different than people. we all make mistakes, have accidents, or just flat screw up on any given day. I never judge the actions of anyone or any dog by how it was trained. If it retrieves it retrieves doesn't matter if it was FF or completely natural. If a dog stands its birds till released it is broke, again might be natural or forced. And in either case the dog will screw up sooner or later just like the best shot in the world misses every so often whether he shoots naturally or was taught.

Ezzy

[Tejas]

I don't believe their "broke" until they have gone through the process. The first GSP who had me was a natural retriever who never failed to produce a downed bird for the entire 7 and 1/2 years he lived. I've never seen a broke dog do it better......in fact I've see a lot of call backs where the "broke" dogs didn't do it nearly as well.

[kensfishing]

The quote was for a retrieve. Not standing broke to release. And when it counts in a trial, I've never had one not do it right.

[Ron R]

The first GSP who had me

I like that .

[Ruffshooter]

There are different ways to get a "broke" dog.
There are different levels of a "Broke" dog. steady to flush, steady to shot, steady till sent.
There are different levels of retrieving skills. Natural, (which is in the dogs makeup, will mostly go and get the object it saw come down and mostly bring it back in some manner. A Force broke/fetched dog is trained to be reliable, efficient and follow direction.
This can be to a minimal level/manner which is what many pointing dogs are trained to. Go git it bring it back to hand. Not many Pointing dogs (Except Versatile and anal people like me) are trained to hand signals and blinds multiple marks etc.

Even a natural retrieving non FF dog is trained to get it to finish the way you want. Think about it, you work your dogs and make sure they bring back the bird or animal every time.

If you do not train and let the dog parade around, take a long route back, drop it at your feet or 20 ft away or at the edge of the water etc. In other words you let the dog do as it pleases that would be a true definition of a non broke dog for retrieving .

Similarly, a dog is broke when you train for an end result.

IMHO such as it is.
Rick

[Buckeye_V]

I think of Broke as per the AKC, AF version. Steady to wing and shot, and as someone else added - through the release as well. I think being BROKE to that level is essential. That is my definition. I don't think broke could be anything else, IMO. Broke = manners. Taught or inherited.

[Waterdogs1]

I'm so broke, the bank asked for their calendar back. Now that is Broke.

[DonF]

Absolutely not! A broke dog and a finished dog are one and the same. A whole lot of people say their dog is broke/finished when in fact it could be anything from a started dog the the owner doesn't want or need anymore training on to a really well started dog. You call on a broke/finished dog to buy and you drive 500 miles to see it because you plan on buying it. You get there and find out the dog doesn't even meet your inturpertation of broke/finished. 500 mi one way because dog people like to call broke/finished what ever they want!

There is only one broke/finished dog and that is the one that stands to flush, shot, kill and then retrieves on command only. That dog aslo has to back on it's own at first sight of the pointing dog on point and must stop to a wild flush or bumped bird. Anything less is no more that a started dog or a meat dog.

It's sad that in the dog world there are so many people that want terms applying to a dog's training, to mean whatever their interputation of the term means. It's not much more that decieving. How would you like someone to sell you a started dog and find that it has never been out but it has started eating again. How about a broke dog That help's you flush? Broke? I think not, no matter what you call it, broke doesn't fit.

[ezzy333]

Broke is a term that is being used wrongly. I think wht don is saying he considers a dog broke when it is finished and I agree wih that. Otherwise we have to use broke as an adjective and say broke to kennel, broke to flush, broke to wing, broke to hoT, broke to fall, and if it is broke to release then and only then can we say the dog is finished, but he is broke to many things on th jouRney.

Ezzy

[DogNewbie]

don't we use terms like whoa broke already?

[birddogger]

Broke is a term that is being used wrongly. I think wht don is saying he considers a dog broke when it is finished and I agree wih that. Otherwise we have to use broke as an adjective and say broke to kennel, broke to flush, broke to wing, broke to hoT, broke to fall, and if it is broke to release then and only then can we say the dog is finished, but he is broke to many things on th jouRney.

Ezzy

I agree!

Charlie

[birddogger]

I don't think a dog is broke unless, on command, it shakes hands, says hello [barks], jumps through hoops, rolls over on his back and plays dead, etc., etc., etc. and I think it is sad that anybody would tell you anything less is a broke dog.

Charlie

[slistoe]

I kind of thought that I might be on the minority side of this. I agree with what has been said. In my opinion, a dog isn't broke until it knows it HAS to perform a certain task, be it retrieve, back, stws. If they're doing something right naturaly they are doing it because they want to and I believe they need to learn that they have to. Like mentioned earlier, they need to be reliable and not decide to quit on ya.

This is the same reasoning that puts the best retrievers going through a FF program.

Broke is broke. It is a well defined term, but some want to "bleep" it to their own ends.

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Ron R,
Broke is an old time FT term we do not use in the Grouse dog world, we have finished Grouse dogs, meaning they are steady to wing and shot, and retrieve on command. Most Grouse dogs hold point till the Grouse is flushed and retrieve to hand, most Grouse hunters
believe this is a finished dog, however they are mistaken. Finished also depends on which type dog is being trained, our Versatile dogs
are not fully finished until they are trained to flush on command, track and instinctively retrieve to hand. Broke is a word we do not use,
in our Grouse hunting dog business.
RGD/Dave

[ezzy333]

We are using broke wrong. It isn't a field trial saying at all. We break horses to ride. We break them to drive. We break dogs to stand steady when pointing till the bird flushes, and till the shot, till the fall, and to retrieve when told. When there is nothing more to break them for they are a finished dog. But breaking is a term that has been used in this country for years and with many different applications. In other words break is just another term for trained. And again when everything is done it is finished. When we see the term broke with no explanation as to what it is broke to do I think a lot of people think the dog must be finished. Thats what it implys. I used to see Finished dogs advertised but more often today they say broke. That leaves a whole lot of room for speculation and doesn't pin the trainer down near as tight. So it behooves anyone to ask what it is broke to do and not assume it is finished.

Ezzy

[Buckeye_V]

Nope, not a field trial statement at all. Broke dog stakes. Nothing to do with field trialing at all.

Once again, you have worn your sentiments for field trialing on your sleave again. This is so tiresome Ezzy. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[ezzy333]

Nope, not a field trial statement at all. Broke dog stakes. Nothing to do with field trialing at all.

Once again, you have worn your sentiments for field trialing on your sleave again. This is so tiresome Ezzy. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

You better go back and reread the posts you have not understood like this one. I never put trialing down, all I sqaid is the term broke is used in many ways and many venues and is not a trialing term even though we do use it in trialing. And even there we mis use it as what we are really talking about is a finished dog and not just broke. WE can break them to many differwent things and because we break to one standard does not say we have a broke dog. Sorry you are so rired of something that isn't even true. I probably field trialed dogs when you were still a pup. And I still like them. There isn't anything much more fun to do wioth your dog other than hunt them and they will never be replaced as No. 1.


Ezzy

[BigShooter]

Nope, not a field trial statement at all. Broke dog stakes. Nothing to do with field trialing at all.

Once again, you have worn your sentiments for field trialing on your sleave again. This is so tiresome Ezzy. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

You better go back and reread the posts you have not understood like this one. I never put trialing down, all I sqaid is the term broke is used in many ways and many venues and is not a trialing term even though we do use it in trialing. And even there we mis use it as what we are really talking about is a finished dog and not just broke. WE can break them to many differwent things and because we break to one standard does not say we have a broke dog. Sorry you are so rired of something that isn't even true. I probably field trialed dogs when you were still a pup. And I still like them. There isn't anything much more fun to do wioth your dog other than hunt them and they will never be replaced as No. 1.


Ezzy

Amen.

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Gentlemen,
I will bet each and everyone of you is a FT person, that does not want to own up to the BROKE dog terminology,
I do have to agree about horses, they are Broke also, but it does not mean trained however, its broke from being wild.
You train a Quarter Horse not just Brake it. Spent to much time in Texas and MT to be conned by that crap.
I wear my dislike for FT proudly, no doubt about it. I like hunt competitions where you shoot the birds however. NASTRA at one time was a good hunting dog competition.
Line up now boys and take your best shot.
RGD/Dave

[Buckeye_V]

I do understand your post. I reread it and a person could have taken it as a....... (like McFly in the Back to the Future movie)..... take your dang hands off it, field trialing..... With a quivering voice.

Broke is an adjective that is best understood by any kind of testing standard because the rules are pretty clearly written. Broke dog stakes = a specific standard. That standard was derived from a desired level of training that existed before and beyond trialing - true. But go beyond those circles and ask what a broke dog is and the standard varies. The written rules of sanctioned events clarify the "Broke" to a standard.

:roll:

[Chukar12]

Report this postReply with quoteRe: Broke Or Not Broke
by Ryman Gun Dog » Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:07 am

Gentlemen,
I will bet each and everyone of you is a FT person, that does not want to own up to the BROKE dog terminology,
I do have to agree about horses, they are Broke also, but it does not mean trained however, its broke from being wild.
You train a Quarter Horse not just Brake it. Spent to much time in Texas and MT to be conned by that crap.
I wear my dislike for FT proudly, no doubt about it. I like hunt competitions where you shoot the birds however. NASTRA at one time was a good hunting dog competition.
Line up now boys and take your best shot.
RGD/Dave

May I ask what you are suggesting people take their best shots at? How can you continue to espouse your BS when countless times you have been caught in outrageous tales of puffery? Even the idiocy of this argument is dumbfounding...at least half of the people in this thread have tried to state using reason and common sense that broke is an undefined term in the bird dog world with meaning diametrically opposed to any common dictionary definition and you still apply a challenge to it. I don't want to take my best shot I want to know how a person can continue to embarrass themselves and still come back for more? What do you know about horses, have you ever been on one, or did you just watch them get trained or broke at 1000 yards through night vision? You know very little about any advanced level of dog training as clearly proven by your focus on what the supposed outcome you get from dogs is, with little or no reference to measured methodology....and herein lies the tragedy. It is guys like you that run the legitimate trainers and dog people off a site like this, who could actually help a new person. Why don't you stop trying to impress people with your internet bravado and work on a little dignity before it’s too late, a good start might be not lumping field trialers or field trials or any other group into a big bucket and respond to people as individuals.

[Francois P vd Walt]

If a dog holds birds till flush, (steady to wing and shot does not apply to this scenario) backs, and retrieves naturaly without ever being corrected would you concider it broke? I know my answer and I will comment after hearing some responses.

IMO Broke should mean dog is steady to flush, shot and drop and retrieves on command.

[Ron R]

NASTRA at one time was a good hunting dog competition.

What has changed in NSTRA. I don't think that NSTRA has ever simulated wild bird hunting...It's just a game to play with your dog that I enjoy in small doses.

May I ask what you are suggesting people take their best shots at?

I think that he wants people to care about his opinion regarding field trials. He just says the strangest things.

[ultracarry]

A versatile breed flushing a bird on command? Are you serious? I'm hoping this is a joke. That is far from breaking and you obviously have no clue what a pointing dog is supposed to do.

Remember when you said your master grouse dogs have learned and mastered the art of "the walking point"? Is this what you teach a broke dog or is it using the non invasive training method to let them do what they want?

A broke pointing/versatile dog will do everything in thier power to not flush a bird. If you relocate them and they do not move because they feel the bird will leave you have a dog that's closer to being broke.

Keep your biased against people who trial dogs, we really don't need to hear stories about how our dogs did a walking point for 200 yards next to you (at heel) before it flushed the bird which was subsequently shot with both rounds from our classic double barrel. Then how the bird was happily retrieved to the dog house without being commanded so you didn't have to dirty your hands. Yes, you were generous and let him eat it for dinner because he is perfect.

[Ruffshooter]

Ultra :"A versatile breed flushing a bird on command? Are you serious? I'm hoping this is a joke. That is far from breaking and you obviously have no clue what a pointing dog is supposed to do."

Hate to say it: You are wrong on this one. In Europe and some other countries as well as some in the US do train their dogs as you would not believe. They are steady to till sent to flush, some will take it further and have the dog stop at the flush. (Which we all do any way or many of us do.) Then once the bird is shot the dog is sent. This is a method known by anyone who knows pointing dogs.

A walking point is a dog that is self relocating while the bird is walking off or has not set. It is a dog that has not been pushed out of its natural instinct by over training. In my experience it usually takes a dog a lot of exposure to the ruff to learn just how much pressure it can take before it busts out and in turn do this walking point. . Kind of like a cat stalking its prey. I have had a couple that did it naturally, and it does make a great day of hunting. Ruffs walk a lot on a fully stationary dog. Of course in FT you get dinged for that self relocation. Which is a shame but is the game.

You must have seen on occasion a Pheasant dog that tracks a running pheasant and maybe even circled around to try to stop that bird from continuing on. It is a little different but not so much.

Just on another note, there is another method that is allowed in the FCI and UKC trials. It is called a Coulee or something like that. Mark Dinsmore can elaborate on it better. I have only done one trial in which that was allowed or more so encouraged. In fact the judge asked why I did not allow the dog to Coulee. If I remember correctly, It is having the dog walk up with you to as you flush the bird. The dog is to help you pin point the bird for the flush. As I understood it, The dog already knows where it is so use his nose to get closer and more direct.

You may have noticed I do not subscribe to Daves views on many things but do respect his knowledge and passion of Ruff Grouse hunting in General. I love FT and FT dogs.

[DonF]

It is these threds that try to use "broke" as a blanket statement that make the whole thing confussing. When you say broke and someone ask's what you mean, they are right! Broke to what? As a blanket statement not describing what your dog is broke to leaves lot's of gray area. If someone were to tell me "broke to wing", I'd buy it. If they told me "broke to shot", I'd buy that. If I am told their dog is "whoa Broke" I know exactly what they're talking about. But when someone says, I have a broke dog, not at which level someone may well assume it's completely broke, in other words, finished. And I would guess the term broke did come from people in competative test's. It would describe a dog that was broke in some area and able to compete at a certain level. I believe that level to use the term as a blanket statement means the dog is what is described as finished! I have watched this same discussion applied to "finished" also. "I did all I wanted to do so I am finished"! BS! It's is amzing how people like to short change what they have to say rather than say it like it is. This reminds me of the term "social". Someone ask's for your "social" because they are to da*n lazy to add "security number". Same thing with "enjoy". Enjoy what? I think whenever anyone say's that to me they don't really give a cr*p what you enjoy but they do want to be viewed as a caring person. When I eat out, no waitress that has said that to me ever ever get's a tip!

Discribe things accurately! Make sure people understand what your talking about. That seem's like a simple thing to me!

[Ron R]

When I eat out, no waitress that has said that to me ever ever get's a tip!

When a waitress brings you food and says "enjoy" you stiff her on a tip :roll: ? You really need for her to tell you to enjoy your meal? The service has to be very bad for me not to tip but they will have their tip cut in half if my cup goes dry.

[DonF]

I apologize. It went right over your head.

[Ron R]

This reminds me of the term "social". Someone ask's for your "social" because they are to da*n lazy to add "security number".

It's just more efficient to say social and doesn't need any further explanation.

I apologize. It went right over your head.

I don't think anything went over my head. You're just confrontational and seem to let the littlest things bother you. I hope that you are more patient and possitive with your dogs.

[Ruffshooter]

Don are you going to be okay?

[slistoe]

When it comes to dogs, broke is broke. The only confusion comes from folks who don't have a broke dog and want to make it sound like they have something so they make up stuff like "broke to wing" etc. Either the dog is broke, or it isn't. What can be more simple than that?