Black and White GSP's

[12 Volt Man]

This is probably blasphemey to most of you GSP owners. I have decided that I really like the looks of Black and White GSPs. I doubt I'll ever own one. Two dogs are enough for me.

I have a question. I mentioned that I like the Black and White ones to a friend who has many GSP's and is also a successful NSTRA trialer. He told me that there aren't that great of hunting lines in the Black and White ones. I am also aware that there are issues with black and white GSP's being allowed in shows. I don't care about that. I would never show a dog anyway. I am just interested in hunting and trialing a little.

You guys who have been around GSP's for a while. What is your opinion on this?

[icefire]

i like them, i have also seen a pure black one that i really liked and was good in the field. i will probably never have one either, i have white w/liver patched and ticked and it it doubtful that i will get out of this line.

[seadog]

You have just rubbed a nerve with this post.
First let me say that the people that developed the wirehair (aka DD) and the shorthair (aka DK) [ notice I left out pointer , they are versatiles,NOT pointers in the true sence] reconize the black phase. So who, over here in N. America has the right or the arrogance to rewrite the breed standards from the people that developed the breed, kinda like re-inventing the wheel. Secondly, wires and shorthairs that are more white then anything else ARE the ones with the FAULTS. My only guess is that your bud has never seen a well bred DK trained within the German system, regardless of the colour, pity.

[icefire]

seadog,

what do you mean the white ones are the ones with the faults? i am all for the black lines, sure but care to guess the color of the first DK in the german original studbook? thats right, white, i have the picture at home. faults have nothing at all to do with color and there are so many bloodlines out there now that different lines are known for different traits and that is not a bad thing. the beauty of it is that there is something out there for any and every one whatever your tastes but you cannot say that any color is any better then any others. it is the individual lines and their particular traits that make one line better then another for a particular person. there is nothing wrong with the progression of the breed and i have seen american dogs just as versitile as the german ones. me? i am into the danish lines and have some stuff that has been here since the 50's and have some newly imported danish genetics as well. are they better or worse than any others? well, they are better.......for me that is. not necessarily for anyone else.

[QCBirddogs]

There is no right or wrong here, just preference!

Yes the Americans reworte the standard, but that is another argument.

12 volt......you buddies answer to your question, shows his ignorance in the breed of his choosing. Black has been in Shorthairs for many many years.

THe NADKC is still a rather young club in this country, also quite small comparitively speaking, with apox. 300 members. IT has a quite rigorous form of testing, more superior to ours (in any format) by far!

If you are interested in what the Deutsch Kurzhaar (German Shorthair) is capable of doing (Black ones included) you can visit my site at http://redearthoutfitters.homestead.com/Home.html or the NADKC site at www.nadkc.org.

We have one B&W DK that has been featured in a book of dog heroes, a retired police narcotics dog, and has many placements/points/titles in field events. He was also featured on Animal planet television show.

We also have another young female that is coming along rather nicely, she has AKC & AF placements and wins, and many NADKC field titles as well!

We also have American bred GSP field trial dogs here as well. In cluding FC's, all of which run side by side and work equally as well.

More importantly...........ALL OF OUR DOGS are hunted 5 days a week on wild Quail and Pheasants here in oklahoma!

Color is just that! It has nothing to do with performance.

Sorry to rant.....

Phil
REO

[tfbirddog2]

12voltman, We have black Gsp line at the lodge an they are awesome hunters they are the english line so they are a little larger but very good hunters. Its preferrence like me I am not really a brittany fan but it does mean they arent good hunters.I will probably breed my Sammy bitch to Zorro are black stud at lodge because of is hunting, dispostion,and looks. I would not pass up the chance in the future if you could get a good one. Also I know you wouldn't show them but AKC will not let you show black and Solid livers for your fyi.

[QCBirddogs]

TF,

You miss stated the rules..............The AKC will dismiss the color Black from the show ring.....Not SOLID LIVER, there are plenty of solid liver bench champions as well!

To clear the air here...............

The only venue a black colored GSP cannot compete in, according tot he AKC is the show ring, nothing else. You can hunt test and trial, along with any other competition. No loss in my book!! Look at how many breeds the "SHOW RING" has ruined in the hunting catagory......Weims, Irish Setters, English Setters, Gordons, etc.... and thats just the pointing breeds. I am sure there are plenty of others in other catagories. Check out the article we have on our site about hind leg angulation in German SHepherd dogs on our site, what they have done to that breed is rediculous!

Another point of interest............To breed for color in the DKV is not allowed either.

Phil
REO

[QCBirddogs]

I appologize for getting back on the soap box, but this one really touched a nerve too! I don't mean to single anyone out, I am just stating facts to clear up a few things.

The AKC has rewritten the standards for our GSP's and taken away the true meaning of the breed. We are supposed to have a Versatile dog, the "DO ALL", so to speak. There is nothing in any AKC format of testing or trialing to prove this. Nothing in any formatt in the states either, NAVHDA comes close, but not there!

THe DK (GSP) was developed as the Poor mans hunting dog in Germany, one that could do numerous tasks.

There are a few things I don't need in a bird dog here in the states, but you have to commend the dogs that can truely be the versatile dogs of yester year here.

Here are a few pics to show what a good DK has to do! ANd....shes Black and white, TO BOOT!


Pointing a wild covie of Quail


Retrieving Rabbit


She tracked and found this wounded deer more than 12 hours after it was shot!

Phil
REO

[12 Volt Man]

Thanks for the further insight QC. Like I said before I really like the Black and White shorthair. That picture I posted at the top is for a pup I found which is for sale. I wish I knew someone close by who wanted a pup. If I didn't already have two dogs, I would be looking into that pup. To me, that is a fantastic looking pup.

I wish the AKC would recognize and conform to what the actual standard of the breed is. I haven't cared too much about the AKC as most English Pointers aren't even registered throught the AKC. They predominantly use FDSB.


Although will always like bragging up my Pointers to my friends who have Shorthairs.

[QCBirddogs]

NO argument there 12!

He is snappy looking! Where is it from, do you know the backround?

I too love those Pointers. I have trained several Elhews from Mr. Wehle's kennel. The last one, Elhew JEt Lag was a great one! Looks similar to yours infact.

Phil
REO

[12 Volt Man]

He is out of Indiana. www.gunshotkennel.com

I don't know anything about this kennel, nor have I researched anything enough to know if the breeding is good.

Here is the info taken from their website.

Gunshots Kaiser vom Ferron-Haus,

Kaiser was born August 16, 2003 out of our black GSP Anni Vom Ferron-Haus. His sire is Ron Ferris’ Arco vom Gerstener Weh. Anni is a second generation German Import of predominantly Hege-Haus breeding. Arco is of the Hansaburg, Pregelufer, Rothenuffein, and Wasserschling lines. Arco was imported December of 2002. Kaiser is conformationally correct, loves birds and retrieving and displays the typical hunting drive found in his family’s heritage. He comes with a written hip and eye guarantee and free training seminar. $750.



Oh and apparantly he is called "Kaiser".......What a great name for a shorthair!

[Ayres]

This thread reminds me of another thread on another site entitled: Which color of lab is better?

I told them it was the red short-haired type that does everything (like in my avatar) but they didn't like that too well.

In the end the consensus was that color is just color and you'll have to look elsewhere than the dog's coat to figure out what kind of hunter it will be.

[msparks]

Some things about America verses Germany's breeding programs. and I think you will see why Black is not allow.

I think the only reason for not allowing Black is to keep Idiots from Breeding EP's(english Pointers) with GSP's. I think that could turn into a real problem if it was to happen more commonly than it already does.

Anyhow, over in Europe the breeding is more strict as well as what you have to go through before you can breed.

This is just my opinion. I don't have a problem with Black Shorthairs, just have a problem with idiots breeding EP's with Shorthairs.

[QCBirddogs]

MS,

To keep idiots from breeding EP's in to the breed is NOT the reason why Black is a disqualification in the US. You mean to tell me that the Americans had the foresight to think that we will cross breed when the GSPCA was formed, I don't think so!

But if it is said often enough, people will believe it and likewise repeat it!

I miss typed and said the AKC will disquailfy dogs for the color black. Actually, the GSPCA, makes the standard, the AKC are just the policing agent that enforces all parent clubs rules.

The new DNA rules will stop cross breeding altogether. It's odd how many "suspect" females have disapeared lately! What most people don't realize is DNA could be traced back many generations, without having the dogs present for a sample. All it takes is someone with a bug in their hind quarters to get on a rant!

I am not a proponent of either club or breed of GSP's, I own and breed both field trial GSP's and DK's (seperately of course!) I think both are magnificant dogs. I have my differneces with both formats but like them equally as well too. Many peopel are cross breeding German bred dogs that are black to sell dogs here in the states for the novelty :roll: again poor judgement and will do nothing for the breed either. THis is as bad as crossing EP's in IMHO!

We shoudl start a fact thread about all breeds......it would be educational and informative.

A fact I learned last night......Small munsterlanders (sp) and LArge Munsterlanders have nothing to do with each other!

Phil
REO

[honeyrun]

Fact:

The GSP and the DK all originated in Germany. The early GSP's were imports from Germany during the late 30' and early 40's. It is the distinct differences in breeding practices and regulations that separates the two. One is "anything goes" the other regulates what dogs can be bred by their testing venues.

Maybe not fact, but a valid explanation:

The lack of an American arm of the German DK club kept the original DK's from remaining DK's (on paper). As they multiplied, there was a need for a Breed Club and testing venues and the GSPCA (AKC affiliated) was formed to fill this need. Demographics plays a large part in the evolution of the GSP. The breed was altered (some say for the better, others say for the worse) to accommodate the hunting style that the breeders preferred.

There are those of us that breed GSP's that try, and succeed in, maintaining the high "versatile" level within their breeding program. Sometimes, that means that some infusion of blood from Germany is done.

[QCBirddogs]

Well written Cindy!

I agree with you. I have no problem with the infusion of German Blood into our AMerican dogs. Only when it is done for color! I do like those Black ones though, and have two, kind of came with the territory you could say, but they were not purchased for their color.

Another Fact:

For the first three stud books ever published by the DKV, the Black DK's were put in to a version of their own. Even if there were liver colored ones in the litter, they were split up in registries. The black ones were called Prussian pointers, which BTW has nothing to do with Prussia at all.

Also another Version of DK's were Weimeraners!

The DK's had a standard set in the early part of the known registry. Later on in the 40's came Hitler.....and boy did the rules change then!

Phil
REO

[sudiegirl]

here's a pretty cool article called This is the Shorthair that we realy enjoyed about the GSP.... its versitility and how it came to the US (there are 2 parts to this article)
http://www.whc.net/gsp/thisis.html
http://www.whc.net/gsp/thisis2.html

[Country-Side Breeders]

That is a very well written article. I often times refer my customers to that site for more info on them.

[catfishsteve]

I have no problem with black GSP's or black/white GPS's, per se.

There were around in the US and overseas long before the AKC gave them their blessing, however,

what does disturb me is that it seems that where in the past, prior to the AKC standard being raised, they were sort of rare,

now that the standard has been changed, I see "black GSP's" being advertised from lines that NEVER advertised them before.

so my question is, did these pups always exist in these litter's lines in the past ?

or are these dogs now being trumpeted truly "black GSP's"?

....just wondering

[QCBirddogs]

Steve,

I dont think I fully understand your question, so I will wing it here....

The standard has not been changed at all!

Lately , breeders have been advertizing Black GSP's for the selling factor, mostly. Many buy German imports of the Black color to cross to the american lines.There is a web site titled just for that reason.

Black being a dominant gene, its very easy to trace the lineage. Black cannot just pop up in a litter. A parent has to Black!

Black has been accepted for 80 years by the Germans. Prior to that all Black and Black and WHite and Grey dogs had a seperate stud book all their own. Grey being Weims!

The main reason I hear from AKC people why they wont change the standards is to keep more folks from cross breeding E. Pointers in to the breed. Poor excuse for reasons mentioned above!

I have said this many times over, with the new AKC and AF DNA rules, all its going to take is someone with a bug up their behind. Lineage can now be traced back many years with out having to dig up remains!

Did I come close?

Phil
REO

[TAK]

I will give my 2cents on the Black in a GSP. QC said it best

" Many people are cross breeding German bred dogs that are black to sell dogs here in the states for the novelty again poor judgement and will do nothing for the breed either."

If it is a coat color that comes out in a litter that was breed to perform then so be it. Seen a few and yet seen a good one working. Not a clue of the blood that is in the dogs but was told "paid over a thousand dollars" and that only possitive point made is "I can sale puppys that are black for big money".

Not to piss on any boots but fact is Not going to help a breed but will do well to fill a pocket book..............

[sudiegirl]

Not to piss on any boots but fact is Not going to help a breed but will do well to fill a pocket book..............

perhaps i misunderstand this (and sorry if i have)
thug irresponsible breeders will always find a way to profit from the latest and greatest "thing" at any cost. of course, breeding for color alone will never improve a breed, but not reintroducing a fine dog's lines back into a breed simply because its color is not accepted by ONE organization in the show ring (OH horror of horrors!!) is silly. if you find a reputable breeder whom you trust, there should be no problem as long as you don't care about competing in the AKC show ring.

[QCBirddogs]

Color has nothing to do with a good dog or good breeding. As an example, Sudie's dog Condor (pictured above in her avatar) comes from strong Black and White lines. He is obviously liver and white himself. He comes from the same breeding as his black and white littermates.

The only issue is breeding for color ALONE. Yes, it happens. I would point out that it also happens in FT lines with folks breeding for white ALONE because they can see the dogs better. They breed for color and assume the hunting genetics will follow along. It doesn't work that way.

I happen to prefer the color myself. But sometimes it is hard to get people to look past the color and see the dog itself for what it is as an athlete. There are many excellent black and white dogs out there (and solid black). I have a couple. My female has points, placements and titles in not only the German testing system, but also NAVHDA, AKC FTs (horseback) and the American Field. She is not three years old yet and is just starting her broke dog stakes. I fully intend to make her an FC/AFC and she is very capable. I don't know when the last import did that and don't know if a black and white import has ever done it. Most importantly (to me at least) she is a super hunting dog. She loves her work and is happy to do it. If money and time were no object....there is no telling what that little dog could accomplish.

I was told at the last FT I was at that I need to get a white dog if I wanted to be competitive in FTs and that my Black and white would make a nice MH. This was *after* she had beaten this guys dog and three of his littermates. Which I pointed out to him. So people have lots of issues about color that make no sense.

A good dog isn't a bad color.

Gayla Combes

[TAK]

I am sure there are "Black" dogs out there that are fantastic dogs. I am not saying that... I am saying look on a classified site and see for yourself,....... At stud Black and White GSP should produce black and white pups. No mention if the dog has ever hunted, tested or even warm a place at the foot of the bed! or Black and white pups $800. Liver and white $500. Most of us are smart enough to see a little more in our choices but not all!
My point is and only point is they are breeding the Blacks and Whites for there color!

[QCBirddogs]

Agreed there Tak,

I bet I could tell you where you saw that add too!

But I also hate to see Nothing brood bitches being bred as well. And adding a higher price to females over males.

There are alot of breeders that take advantage of the color and the NEW IN THING!

gayla's bitch will finish in horseback trials, no problem. She has what it takes and then some. She will also finish in the DKV world too.

Her other Black dog did well in NSTRA as well as the DKV, and is also a retired NArcotics dog.............he was bred twice, she didnt like what he produced, he is now neutered. There are not many that would do that either, just cause of his color and accomplishments.

Phil
REO

[scarecrow]

Very good thread! Thanks for all the insight guys!

[doublea]

Funny thing about all this insight is that most of it is not exactly correct in all cases! FYI: The black color in the GSP is the result of out crossing to the BLACK pointer back in the 1920's and has nothing at all to do with out crossing to English Pointers. The purpose behind the black pointer outcross was to darken the eye of the GSP as well as the nose and pads of the feet. While it is true that the black color was (is) very visually pleasing, the test results of said black GSP were unsatisfactory at best. Fact is the dogs were so lacking in field ability when compared to others within the breed that the outcrosses were discontinued by all but the French who really like the looks of the black GSP and continued to breed GSP’s of that color. To my knowledge there has never been a Black GSP to earn a field title of any real merit (K.S., FC, AFC, NFC, NAFC, ect.) in either Germany or the US.

As to the White color in the GSP…back in 1870 the first GSP ever registered in the German studbook Vol. 1 No.1 was a male dog named Hektor I and was registered as being White and Brown. (if y'all like I will give you his registration number owners/breeders name ect.)

Regarding this supposed difference between the German Breed standard and the AKC breed standard. What are y'all talking about? The AKC based it’s breed standard verbatim off of the old Club Shorthair breed standard circa 1870 and little has changed since!

[TAK]

Hi, Allen.
Little off the Black and white GSP stuff but how is Greg V doing. I once had his e-mail but since lost it. I know he went under the knife here as of late. I was wanting to know how he came out of it?

[doublea]

Hey Tom! How ya doing? Santa treat you good this year? I bet you ate too much like I did...what is it about Turkey that makes you sleepy anyway!?

As to Greg...I just talked to him about 4 days ago. He sounds like he is doing real well. Said he was going to drive 14 hours to New York to spend Christmas with his mom. That and he was still planning on going Quail hunting with Jim Guthrie down in Oklahoma this January. I'll send you his e-mail address. Later

[sdgord]

Seems like the color issue continues to be a hot topic in a lot of breeds. The Gordon world in certain circles tends to regard Gordons with too much white as being cross bred with the English. One only needs to look at photos and paintings from the early Castle Gordon to see that white was a predominant color. Maybe it is just the American preocupation with fixing what aint broke? Personally I could care less what color my bird dog was as long as I could hunt with it. That being said there are plenty of crap breeders out there with only profit motive as their agenda. Those breeders have an un ending supply of gullible buyers. I for one would not want any pup of mine( if I was a breeder) going to any one whos sole criteria for a pup was color. SDGORD

[ward myers]

amen
i get alot of people from the north that have never seen a liver & white shorthair & want a dark shorthair ,i tell them good luck finding 1 in fla ,because white is predominate colour here

[TAK]

Eat I did and boy did I do well!
Santa dropped a ton at the homestead this year! Tell you the truth I found my 3 year old today in the pile of paper!
Glad to here Greg is on the up and up! I sent him an email thanks Tom

[TAK]

""""Personally I could care less what color my bird dog was as long as I could hunt with it"""""sdgord

Best answer said here to date!

[doublea]

Very true sdgord...nice post!

Now, I would like to clear up some of my mistakes. First, I said it was the French that liked the Black GSP ( I am sure they did...) I should have said it was the Italians, a feller by the name of Fidicin Philippi from Rome who continued to breed and care for the black GSP.

Also I should mention that I am not educated enough in the various Pointer strains to be able to with certainty claim that the Black Pointer is a different breed than the English or just a different strain within the breed. I would assume it to be a different strain however. So in that context I was again mistaken, as the outcross to the Black Pointer was in effect another outcross to the English Pointer.

Further we can trace the original outcross to the Black pointer back to former Club Chairman Bode owner/breeder of the famed Altenauer GSP and Dr. Wachter of Berlin owner of "Wach Wille" and "Wach Woge" ect.

FYI: The black Wirehaired Pointer is a product of an incross to the black GSP.


I apologize for the prior errors.