Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

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Garrison
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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by Garrison » Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:23 pm

ultracarry wrote:Bill what state are you located in? If you want to go hunting in California just met me know. I pay for gas and food. You just have to show up with as many dogs as you would like and ill run my one dog in chukar or quail country for 8 hours. It would be easy for you to tell the difference when she won't have her tongue hanging out when were done for the day and taking pictures :D

Oh come on Ultra 8 hours? You and I know darn well, you would be back to the truck with bag limits before lunch. :lol:
Last edited by Garrison on Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by BillThomas » Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:24 pm

Jakezilla wrote:Holy crap Bill are you still flapping your gums? What's with the chip on your shoulder? Did a field trialer push you down and steal your lunch money or something?
It all brings back horrible memories.

Thats exactly what happened..I repressed it all these 30+ years.

Maybe some psychotherapy and drugs will help.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by BillThomas » Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:27 pm

Garrison wrote:
ultracarry wrote:Bill what state are you located in? If you want to go hunting in California just met me know. I pay for gas and food. You just have to show up with as many dogs as you would like and ill run my one dog in chukar or quail country for 8 hours. It would be easy for you to tell the difference when she won't have her tongue hanging out when were done for the day and taking pictures :D

Oh come on Ultra 8 hours? You and I know darn well, you would be back to the truck with bag limits before lunch. :lol:
And Id still be finding his cripples left out in the fields...opening season is a blast isnt it?


Course thats not when the good dogs show their mettle.

That comes weeks or months later on much wary birds with the large populations of fool hens already bagged.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by romeo212000 » Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:33 pm

If you think splitting the field with a quality nstra dog one time proves you can consistently run with the best nstra dogs you have now lost what little credibility you ever had. Sounds like an easy cop out to me. Go try to put just one nstra championship on a dog and come back to me.

When I first started in nstra I ran a female that had a pretty good nose, but wasn't a world beater. In her first weekend of trialing I ran a 2x champion and former Oklahoma hi-point dog. I beat that dog 3 birds to two. According to your logic she just proved herself against the best. Wanna know something though? Both dogs are gone now. That dog I ran against ended up being a 4x champion, national runner-up, and Oklahoma region elimination champion. Wanna know what my female accomplished in that time? Not one "bleep" thing. She never placed one time. That's why you get ridiculed on here. Your attitude is condescending, and your logic is laughable at best. So no. Your dog didn't prove crap by matching finds with a quality nstra dog one time. My guess is you saw what it would really take to be successful and backed out like a coward. You clearly don't have a clue what it takes to have a successful nstra dog.
Last edited by romeo212000 on Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by slistoe » Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:39 pm

Troy08er wrote:Can some one post the AF/AKC wild bird only field trials. Thanks
Every single trial run in AFTCA Region 14. You can google their website and find all the information you need on them. All of the CKC Sanctioned trials are single course/planted bird.
It is easier to be successful with a dog that is trained and run on planted birds in a wild bird trial than the other way around IME.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by slistoe » Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:42 pm

BillThomas wrote:
Id watch how you speak about said tests, unless youve passed one with your dogs, youve not much room to talk.
Good thing my bladder was MT, darn near about peed myself. :lol: :lol:

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by Elkhunter » Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:55 pm

Bill you can come run in the Region 9 SD CH in Idaho, its ran on wild birds. In fact Dgfavor took runner up with his GSP, that he hunts like 4 times a week with! Fancy that..

Also Bill how many horseback FT have you been to?

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by RayGubernat » Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:56 pm

BillThomas wrote:I want to understand the purpose of trialing, I really do, but I simply cannot.


Bill - We all know that is a flat out, bald faced lie and you sir are the liar. You should be ashamed of yourself but you are too arrogant for that. Must be a politician or a lawyer to be that wrong and that arrogant and think you ain't gonna get called on it.

You shovel more manure than any pig farmer I know and you insist the both it and you smell like rosebuds. Well, if you are gonna insist on shoveling pig manure, you are get some on you...and it smells BAD.

Wallow some more, sling some more.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by Jakezilla » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:12 pm

Elkhunter wrote:Bill you can come run in the Region 9 SD CH in Idaho, its ran on wild birds. In fact Dgfavor took runner up with his GSP, that he hunts like 4 times a week with! Fancy that..

Also Bill how many horseback FT have you been to?
I have a better one. Come up to Michigan this fall and enter a couple grouse trials, you don't even need a horse. Wild birds only and it takes a bird dog to win.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by RayGubernat » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:13 pm

[quote="BillThomas
Have you wondered WHY Your sport and numbers are dwindling?
Its because of elitist attitudes that you just demonstrated and are demonstrating.


Now that 's HILARIOUS. Bill Thomas calling someone else an elitist. That is the height of chutzpah.



Im done with your guys.

Well, I sincerely hope so. I can't say its been fun...Because dealing with arrogant buttholes never is.

See where trialing is in 10 years.

Funny, they have been saying that for about a hundred years or so now.


Im just a spectator and dog enthusiast asking you to take a critical look at your sport and method of evaluation for hunting dogs.[/quote]


No you are not. You are a troll and a gadfly. if you truly are done, I say Godspeed and good riddance to bad rubbish.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by Grange » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:28 pm

Jakezilla wrote:
I have a better one. Come up to Michigan this fall and enter a couple grouse trials, you don't even need a horse. Wild birds only and it takes a bird dog to win.
I hope to travel to Gladwin for a weekend this fall. I've only been over there once and really want to go back. If I can make it I hope I my father will join me. After years of me harping on him to give it a try I wore him down and he entered two of his dogs in a couple trials last fall. He did enjoy himself so I think he'd be game.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by SetterNut » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:46 pm

So what was the original point to this thread?

Can a great hunting dog be a great FT dog, Yes IMO
Can a Great FT dog be a great Hunting Dog, Yes IMO

But a IMO a higher percentage of great FT dogs will make great hunting dog, than the other way around.

If that is not the case, why are people that only hunt, willing to pay more for a pup with some winning FT blood in them? Its becuase they think in increases the percentages for them to end up with a great hunting dog.
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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by romeo212000 » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:49 pm

SetterNut wrote:So what was the original point to this thread?

Can a great hunting dog be a great FT dog, Yes IMO
Can a Great FT dog be a great Hunting Dog, Yes IMO

But a IMO a higher percentage of great FT dogs will make great hunting dog, than the other way around.

If that is not the case, why are people that only hunt, willing to pay more for a pup with some winning FT blood in them? Its becuase they think in increases the percentages for them to end up with a great hunting dog.
Ding ding ding!

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by slistoe » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:54 pm

SetterNut wrote:So what was the original point to this thread?

Can a great hunting dog be a great FT dog, Yes IMO
Can a Great FT dog be a great Hunting Dog, Yes IMO

But a IMO a higher percentage of great FT dogs will make great hunting dog, than the other way around.

If that is not the case, why are people that only hunt, willing to pay more for a pup with some winning FT blood in them? Its becuase they think in increases the percentages for them to end up with a great hunting dog.
Why didn't you just post the first post?

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by DGFavor » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:59 pm

come run in the Region 9 SD CH in Idaho, its ran on wild birds. In fact Dgfavor took runner up with his GSP, that he hunts like 4 times a week with!
Cripes, I been runner up there 3 times!! Always a bridesmaid!! :lol: :lol:
1. Doug always post the best pictures.
:lol: :lol: It's the only way I've figured out to have even a sliver of credibility on the WWW!! In fact today while I was out goofin' I was figuring when I got home I'd submit a picture post for this thread with Ch Bugs and Ch Trixie retrieving huns, chuks, quail, phez and sharps from about 5 different states and pictures of being in the winner's circle in ID, WA, OR, UT, MT, WY, AZ, and KS but instead decided I'd post a couple of the pics my wife snapped today of me workin' on tanning the top of my head!! While you fellars wuz in here hashin' this one out, I was workin' on buildin' up the callus' on my hands workin' the sticks of the drift boat!! :mrgreen:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Yup, they fish too...but can't row the boat for squat!! :lol: :lol:
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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by SetterNut » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:04 pm

slistoe wrote:
SetterNut wrote:So what was the original point to this thread?

Can a great hunting dog be a great FT dog, Yes IMO
Can a Great FT dog be a great Hunting Dog, Yes IMO

But a IMO a higher percentage of great FT dogs will make great hunting dog, than the other way around.

If that is not the case, why are people that only hunt, willing to pay more for a pup with some winning FT blood in them? Its becuase they think in increases the percentages for them to end up with a great hunting dog.
Why didn't you just post the first post?

Sorry I was at work when it started this morning and it took me the rest of the night to read through the Peeing contest. :D
Steve

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by dan v » Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:10 am

BillThomas wrote:Most horseback and AA trialers turn their nose down at NSTRA.
If you think differently, youre being dishonest with yourself.
You've got yourself convinced that "you" see how things really are, and in your own small self centered world, you're right. But this I can tell you. The VAST majority of field trialers (HB or AA, whatever that distinction means) don't "turn their nose down" at NSTRA, NAVHDA, or hunters, or any of the other alphabet soup games people play with their dogs. They are happy that others are out and about, taking enjoyment with their dog.
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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by BillThomas » Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:54 am

Elkhunter wrote:Bill you can come run in the Region 9 SD CH in Idaho, its ran on wild birds. In fact Dgfavor took runner up with his GSP, that he hunts like 4 times a week with! Fancy that..

Im not too interested in driving to Idaho X Country to run, but thanks just the same.
My dog does what I need it to do and once outfound a NSTRA 4x Champion.
I know what I have and am happy with it.

There are faster bird dogs out there, and faster locating dogs, but not many more thorough, honest and none more versatile.
My 2 hunting buddys run trial bred Setters.
For 10+ years, my dog has proven itself time and again, and Id run her against any bitch on pheasant or in the duck blind
(2 species I hunt alot) , and she would give a very respectable showing..
I didnt say she'd show everyones best trial dogs up, but give a very respectable showing and would be a helluva lot more versatile.
And she comes from a line of pig chasing dogs in Germany. Imagine that?


Also Bill how many horseback FT have you been to?
Been to 3 trials, All in my homestate of OH, and 2 were on horseback.
(I wasnt on horseback)
Last edited by BillThomas on Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by JKP » Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:55 am

I think we can all agree that hunting makes great hunting dogs...and until we hunt a dog...give it experience and a chance to show us greatness, we can't say its a great hunting dog....whether it is a trial dog or not.

Bill,

Your breed was founded by a bunch of PP owners over a 100 years ago. Where does the PP come from? What did they add in over the first 30-40 years to strengthen point and search? The DK!!! where did that come from???

Fella...take it easy before you end up insulting yourself. So when they cross bred to get PP and DK....do you think they used the competition winners/most competitive Pointer kennels..... or some backyard fleabags from down the street????

Look, I am suspicious of all games when they become replacements for real evidence for ability "in der Praxis" (German for "under real hunting conditions"). I am just as concerned about versatile dogs from many breeds never hunting more than pen raised chickens and being touted as great hunting dogs....and that is happening all over the country.

You need to get some perspective...and balance. Things may not be perfect in FT land (and who ever said it is) but there are issues that are far clser to home you should be concerned about.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by BillThomas » Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:03 am

JKP wrote: Bill,

Your breed was founded by a bunch of PP owners over a 100 years ago. Where does the PP come from? What did they add in over the first 30-40 years to strengthen point and search? The DK!!! where did that come from???
I didnt know the PP had any DK/GSP blood, but was all Pudels (15) and Pointers (85)?...Correct me if Im wrong.

Fella...take it easy before you end up insulting yourself. So when they cross bred to get PP and DK....do you think they used the competition winners/most competitive Pointer kennels..... or some backyard fleabags from down the street????
I understand your point.
By the same token, why do trialers insist our HUNTING dogs are inferior to their trial dogs FOR Hunting?!
Youve taken wins over some Longtails in Hunting/shooting events and come out on top (3 wins in 10 years).
My dogs Grand Sire and German Import, Timo V Richtof, WON the Minnesota Open Pheasant Championship.
5 Longtails ahead of him had 0 finds. No Birds.
He ran Last, and Still won the entire event, finding more birds than all others. Just sayin.


Look, I am suspicious of all games when they become replacements for real evidence for ability "in der Praxis" (German for "under real hunting conditions"). I am just as concerned about versatile dogs from many breeds never hunting more than pen raised chickens and being touted as great hunting dogs....and that is happening all over the country.
As well you should be.
But the reality is that the vast majority of Trial dogs are Trialed ON Pen Raised birds.
Our own dogs pedigrees go back to Germany (few generations) and every dog there was tested ON Wild Game, as you well know, and still are.


You need to get some perspective...and balance. Things may not be perfect in FT land (and who ever said it is) but there are issues that are far clser to home you should be concerned about.
Ive had the snubs here from those that insult Standard testing, this is a Trial Biased board, and Im fine with that, I just try to point out the inconsistencies in their arguments, and their own shortcomings.
I never knew critiquing their sport as it relates TO Hunting dogs, was off limits.??
I did own a trial bred dog so I speak from experience.

Trialing has its place, but I think it also has alot of shortcomings. Events are competing with trialing as hunters want a different venue to play in with more reality and less pagaentry. I think extreme dogs also have their place but not the end all be all for the large majority of hunters and hunting.
Phez and grouse are the most widely hunted birds in this country. The Versatiles I use handle them just fine AND alot of other game too.
Last edited by BillThomas on Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by Ruffshooter » Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:14 am

A wild bird dog is developed by experience with wild birds. By a person that understands wild bird hunting. That simple.
Trials of all types; Cover dog, wild grouse trials, NSTRA, AKC, AF, all give you a handle on the type of dog( That has produced that pup you want) and weather or not it has a very good chance of having the tools to develop for the type of Hunting( Prairie or Grouse woods )or trialing (AA or cover dogs stuff) you want to do.

It is that simple just like the NAVHDA, MH VHDD (German testing (always get abbv wrong on that) or what ever does the same thing.

P.S. I read on this or the other thread, good bird dogs do not track. That is just dumb.
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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by adogslife » Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:20 am

P.S. I read on this or the other thread, good bird dogs do not track. That is just dumb.
In the minds of some, this may be true.
Upland dogs are desired to air scent.
The DK bred to the Arkwright Pointer to raise the head for better air scenting.
How many trial dogs are hunting with their head at shoulder level or lower? My guess is, not many.
How would a ft judge score a dog that was hunting with a lower than shoulder head?

Tracking is beneficial for retrieving/after the shot, upland dogs were not bred for retrieving.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by Buckeye_V » Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:25 am

Hey Bill - what FT in Ohio did you go to? I've been to 75% of all horseback trials in OH for the last 5 years and have NEVER seen you.

Just curious.

I would take any of my "horseback" FT dogs and enjoy cleaning your clock in the grouse woods with them :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:27 am

adogslife wrote:
P.S. I read on this or the other thread, good bird dogs do not track. That is just dumb.
In the minds of some, this may be true.
Upland dogs are desired to air scent.
The DK bred to the Arkwright Pointer to raise the head for better air scenting.
How many trial dogs are hunting with their head at shoulder level or lower? My guess is, not many.
How would a ft judge score a dog that was hunting with a lower than shoulder head?

Tracking is beneficial for retrieving/after the shot, upland dogs were not bred for retrieving.
So true

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by BigShooter » Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:34 am

You know if it weren't for BillThomas or whomever he really is, we wouldn't be having the excitement of "Entertainment Today" right here on GDF! :mrgreen:

Haven't had this much fun since a certain member quit posting some time ago. He must have a twin out there.
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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by BillThomas » Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:35 am

Buckeye_V wrote:Hey Bill - what FT in Ohio did you go to? I've been to 75% of all horseback trials in OH for the last 5 years and have NEVER seen you.

Just curious.

I would take any of my "horseback" FT dogs and enjoy cleaning your clock in the grouse woods with them :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Clinton and Highland counties..7-10 years ago.
Ive also been to a few Retriever trials, and ran in some hunt tests.

If you want to hunt, look me up in October and November, Phez or grouse is fine with me.
You better like walking hills to hunt grouse, & as you may or may not know, limits are very hard to come by.
Ill be going to MI-UP in mid Oct and be hunting in the hills when the leaves fall.
And guiding phez and sitting in the duck blind in Nov.
Youre welcome to hunt with me anytime.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by BillThomas » Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:44 am

BigShooter wrote:You know if it weren't for BillThomas or whomever he really is, we wouldn't be having the excitement of "Entertainment Today" right here on GDF! :mrgreen:

Haven't had this much fun since a certain member quit posting some time ago. He must have a twin out there.
Thank you for the welcome, happy to oblige.

No twin, just like minded hunting dude, sounds like.

This was and is a terribly boring board ,imo. It needed some spice.
I just try to offer a different viewpoint and I cant say I mince alot of words. Not everyone appreciates that, but thats ok.

In truth, I wont be here posting much longer with any regularity, Im just taking a few days off of work, have some time to kill, and so I will report back this Fall.
Any Midwest guys are welcome to contact me to go hunting at that time, and I mean that cordially.

I dont think Im not nearly as big a A hole in person as on a board, and certainly not out doing what I enjoy doing, being in the field, forest or blind.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by Garrison » Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:49 am

BillThomas wrote:
Buckeye_V wrote:Hey Bill - what FT in Ohio did you go to? I've been to 75% of all horseback trials in OH for the last 5 years and have NEVER seen you.

Just curious.

I would take any of my "horseback" FT dogs and enjoy cleaning your clock in the grouse woods with them :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Clinton and Highland counties..7-10 years ago.
Ive also been to a few Retriever trials, and ran in some hunt tests.

If you want to hunt, look me up in October and November, Phez or grouse is fine with me.
You better like walking hills to hunt grouse, & as you may or may not know, limits are very hard to come by.
Ill be going to MI-UP in mid Oct and be hunting in the hills when the leaves fall.
And guiding phez and sitting in the duck blind in Nov.



Youre welcome to hunt with me anytime.
There would be nothing I would love more in this life then to sit in a duck blind with Birddogz Bill Thomas and listen to illusions of grandeur for an entire day! Buckey I salute you, a better man than me.

Bill do people really pay you to take them hunting? Get much repeat business?
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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by JKP » Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:50 am

I didnt know the PP had any DK/GSP blood, but was all Pudels (15) and Pointers (85)?...Correct me if Im wrong.
C'mon now Bill try to focus....Hegewald and his cronies, the founders of the VDD, were PP breeders/owners. Now where did the PP come from.
The DK was used for crossbreeding in the early years....now where did they come from??


We do agree on one thing, Bill. Field trialers DO have a severe problem discussing what they do in any critical manner. But remember...we come from a system that is a constant process of evaluation...no dog is ever perfect or a winner. Trialing and competitive venues are about winning and in my experience, frank discussion about the good and the bad, especially about your own dog or the system, is less likely to happen in any competitive venue. However, I don't hear any trialer saying its perfect...is what it is.

General question to ALL....would it be fair to say that trialers would be happier when there is LESS game on the course??? But, if a dog finds too much game. wouldn't that be evidence of a dogs ability as a game finder??? Maybe the dog wouldn't be able to get rolling..but it surely couldn't be criticized for passing game by.

Another question....can any of you trialers name big time winners that were bred a lot but hunted little??? This is a test question....I'm betting it gets quiet real fast. :wink:

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by Garrison » Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:54 am

DGFavor wrote:
come run in the Region 9 SD CH in Idaho, its ran on wild birds. In fact Dgfavor took runner up with his GSP, that he hunts like 4 times a week with!
Cripes, I been runner up there 3 times!! Always a bridesmaid!! :lol: :lol:
1. Doug always post the best pictures.
:lol: :lol: It's the only way I've figured out to have even a sliver of credibility on the WWW!! In fact today while I was out goofin' I was figuring when I got home I'd submit a picture post for this thread with Ch Bugs and Ch Trixie retrieving huns, chuks, quail, phez and sharps from about 5 different states and pictures of being in the winner's circle in ID, WA, OR, UT, MT, WY, AZ, and KS but instead decided I'd post a couple of the pics my wife snapped today of me workin' on tanning the top of my head!! While you fellars wuz in here hashin' this one out, I was workin' on buildin' up the callus' on my hands workin' the sticks of the drift boat!! :mrgreen:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Yup, they fish too...but can't row the boat for squat!! :lol: :lol:
Image
Doug I hate you! I mean that in the best possible way.
“Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.”
- Mark Twain-

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by Ruffshooter » Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:03 am

adogslife wrote:
P.S. I read on this or the other thread, good bird dogs do not track. That is just dumb.
Tracking is beneficial for retrieving/after the shot, upland dogs were not bred for retrieving.
You know better. A dog does not need its head down to track a bird.
The best part of training is seeing the light come on in your little prot'eg'e.

Rick

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by jarbo03 » Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:07 am

BillThomas wrote:
Buckeye_V wrote:Hey Bill - what FT in Ohio did you go to? I've been to 75% of all horseback trials in OH for the last 5 years and have NEVER seen you.

Just curious.

I would take any of my "horseback" FT dogs and enjoy cleaning your clock in the grouse woods with them :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Clinton and Highland counties..7-10 years ago.
Ive also been to a few Retriever trials, and ran in some hunt tests.

If you want to hunt, look me up in October and November, Phez or grouse is fine with me.
You better like walking hills to hunt grouse, & as you may or may not know, limits are very hard to come by.
Ill be going to MI-UP in mid Oct and be hunting in the hills when the leaves fall.
And guiding phez and sitting in the duck blind in Nov.
Youre welcome to hunt with me anytime.
Come on out to KS, lets see how the ugly dogs do on the open prairie. Phez, quail, PC, ducks, geese, sometimes all in the same day.Image

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by BillThomas » Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:12 am

jarbo03 wrote:
BillThomas wrote:
Buckeye_V wrote:Hey Bill - what FT in Ohio did you go to? I've been to 75% of all horseback trials in OH for the last 5 years and have NEVER seen you.

Just curious.

I would take any of my "horseback" FT dogs and enjoy cleaning your clock in the grouse woods with them :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Clinton and Highland counties..7-10 years ago.
Ive also been to a few Retriever trials, and ran in some hunt tests.

If you want to hunt, look me up in October and November, Phez or grouse is fine with me.
You better like walking hills to hunt grouse, & as you may or may not know, limits are very hard to come by.
Ill be going to MI-UP in mid Oct and be hunting in the hills when the leaves fall.
And guiding phez and sitting in the duck blind in Nov.
Youre welcome to hunt with me anytime.
Come on out to KS, lets see how the ugly dogs do on the open prairie. Phez, quail, PC, ducks, geese, sometimes all in the same day.Image

PM me. Lets do it, let me know possible dates..

It wouldnt be fun without any long tails though...running uglys is boring without long tails.
They need our dogs to retrieve their birds :)

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by BillThomas » Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:17 am

Garrison wrote: There would be nothing I would love more in this life then to sit in a duck blind with Birddogz Bill Thomas and listen to illusions of grandeur for an entire day! Buckey I salute you, a better man than me.

Bill do people really pay you to take them hunting? Get much repeat business?
Im alot of things, boring or quiet is not one of them.

Seriously, how many guys do you know that played football against not one, but 2 Heisman Trophy winners?
Or played against the reigning Natl Champs-University of Miami?
Or beat the 8th ranked LSU Tigers At Home in the Pit? Preety soon, Ill be posting college football pics of myself, as the PMS Im getting contest my claims..


Yes I get paid to take folks hunting.
My dog does all the work, Im just a dog walker. And I dont think the repeat business is for me, but my dog.
Youth hunts are my favorite.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by Garrison » Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:20 am

So let me get this straight, all you have to do is change your name, stir it up with a little chest pounding for a couple days and you get invited to everyone's honeyholes across the nation. Call me Bill Thomas come bird season! :D
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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by Buckeye_V » Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:20 am

Grouse in OH right now is hard to come by. I hutn the UP in mid Oct as well. Western UP. Not opposed to the woodcacks either.

I've hunted grouse in the mountains of PA, in the bramble hills of OH and in the beautiful northern woods. Hard to beat a crisp autumn morning grouse flush. Sun shining through the aspen saplings, dogs working. Smell of gun powder. Oh yeah!

Also, nothing beats sitting atop horseback watching your dog work a course and slam on point for everyone else to see. I ride over slowly to show them the trust I have in my boy.

Both are extremely enjoyable in my opinion. Neither is better than the other. Just different.
We have done something with nothing for so long we are now qualified to do everything with anything....

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by RayGubernat » Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:22 am

BillThomas wrote:
Garrison wrote: There would be nothing I would love more in this life then to sit in a duck blind with Birddogz Bill Thomas and listen to illusions of grandeur for an entire day! Buckey I salute you, a better man than me.

Bill do people really pay you to take them hunting? Get much repeat business?
Im alot of things, boring or quiet is not one of them.

Seriously, how many guys do you know that played football against not one, but 2 Heisman Trophy winners?
Or played against the reigning Natl Champs-University of Miami?
Or beat the 8th ranked LSU Tigers At Home in the Pit? Preety soon, Ill be posting college football pics of myself, as the PMS Im getting contest my claims..


Yes I get paid to take folks hunting.
My dog does all the work, Im just a dog walker. And I dont think the repeat business is for me, but my dog.
Youth hunts are my favorite.
I guess this was a trick question. :P :P

I can say with absolute certainty that there is one former footbvall player that I have absolutely NO desire to meet. :lol: :lol:

RayG

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by BillThomas » Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:24 am

Garrison wrote:So let me get this straight, all you have to do is change your name, stir it up with a little chest pounding for a couple days and you get invited to everyone's honeyholes across the nation. Call me Bill Thomas come bird season! :D

:)

There is a method to the madness.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by BillThomas » Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:25 am

Buckeye_V wrote:Grouse in OH right now is hard to come by. I hutn the UP in mid Oct as well. Western UP. Not opposed to the woodcacks either.

I've hunted grouse in the mountains of PA, in the bramble hills of OH and in the beautiful northern woods. Hard to beat a crisp autumn morning grouse flush. Sun shining through the aspen saplings, dogs working. Smell of gun powder. Oh yeah!

Also, nothing beats sitting atop horseback watching your dog work a course and slam on point for everyone else to see. I ride over slowly to show them the trust I have in my boy.

Both are extremely enjoyable in my opinion. Neither is better than the other. Just different.
I will PM you now.
Lets hook up in Oct/Nov.
Hopefully Im not banned before them, but Im trying to mind my Ps and Qs.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by Elkhunter » Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:27 am

General question to ALL....would it be fair to say that trialers would be happier when there is LESS game on the course??? But, if a dog finds too much game. wouldn't that be evidence of a dogs ability as a game finder??? Maybe the dog wouldn't be able to get rolling..but it surely couldn't be criticized for passing game by.
No, and here is the reason why. In a lot of trials we lack the wild birds to have consistent trials on wild birds solely. So we have to plant birds so that we have bird work, then you bring in lazy bird planters that plant birds in the horse path instead of on the edges or objectives to reward dogs that cast out towards promising areas. Perfect example I ran in a derby about a year and a half ago, my EP went birdless but was on the edges OFF the horse path hitting objectives that he normally finds wild birds on. He was never in the horse path but searching out to likely objectives. Bad thing was there were no birds planted outside the horse path. My brace mate a young brittany had like 6 finds, 50 yards in front of the horse never leaving the horse path. So in reality he found more birds than me, but I would not take that dog over mine any day in the chukar hills. But lets say my dog did have one find on the edge at a likely objective and showed desire and range through out the brace and was hitting the spots he was supposed too, I would expect him to place over the dog that found 5 birds in the horse path. JMO

In a wild bird trial I would obviously want my dog to find as many as possible!

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by dan v » Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:35 am

Elkhunter is getting to the reason why judging at a FT is more than counting birds. In throw down event, he describes it pretty well.

But even at a wild bird venue things are different, different courses that have more or less birds to get pointed...different times of the day, when birds are actively feeding...or loafing. Different temperatures, differing amounts of moisture during the day. These are some of the reasons why FT judging is more than simply counting finds.

But the experience of going to FT's allows one to gain this insight. And going to a handful of events won't.
Dan

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by birddog1968 » Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:01 am

Lifes too short to spend a day with someone who thinks football is some great thing to be revered and its players somehow worshiped. :roll:

Now if you were a soldier or a vet, well then...........that'd be different. Someone who deserves recognition for the things they've done and sacrificed.
The second kick from a mule is of very little educational value - from Wing and Shot.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by BillThomas » Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:16 am

birddog1968 wrote:Lifes too short to spend a day with someone who thinks football is some great thing to be revered and its players somehow worshiped. :roll:

Now if you were a soldier or a vet, well then...........that'd be different. Someone who deserves recognition for the things they've done and sacrificed.
Guess you missed the thread where I wrote:
'I never saw the point in college athletics, except to play profesionally.
We made tens of Millions for the University, but some of my teammates didnt have enough money to travel home to see their families on holidays, and I barely scraped by myself.

Im not sure how many concussions I suffered, but its more than a few.
For what? A ring, a Jersey and sweatshirt. And a piece of paper.
And in truth, I learned j*acksh*t in those 4 years, except how to tap a keg,
Oh, and that college football players are really fast in the next level, hit much harder, dont run into a zone, and the coashes dont give a crap about you.

I "bleep" sure didnt devote my time to academics, my full time job and vocation was playing football and helping to fund the University. And when done with practice or games, I had to medicate myself with beer or advil or both to get by.
A roommate managing the local liquor store comes in handy.

It worked out to slave labor, probably less than minimum wage all said and done.
Cynical? Perhaps.
And personally, I dont think we've had a war worth fighting for since 1812.
And you've obviously not read Marine General and Congressional Medal of Honor Winner Smedley Butler's WAR IS A RACKET?
I will post it for you here
http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... le4377.htm


Intro here:
A speech delivered in 1933, by Major General Smedley Butler, USMC.

"WAR is a racket. It always has been

It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives.

A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small "inside" group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes.
In the World War a mere handful garnered the profits of the conflict. At least 21,000 new millionaires and billionaires were made in the United States during the World War. That many admitted their huge blood gains in their income tax returns. How many other war millionaires falsified their tax returns no one knows.

How many of these war millionaires shouldered a rifle? How many of them dug a trench? How many of them knew what it meant to go hungry in a rat-infested dug-out? How many of them spent sleepless, frightened nights, ducking shells and shrapnel and machine gun bullets? How many of them parried a bayonet thrust of an enemy? How many of them were wounded or killed in battle?
Out of war nations acquire additional territory, if they are victorious. They just take it. This newly acquired territory promptly is exploited by the few – the selfsame few who wrung dollars out of blood in the war. The general public shoulders the bill.

And what is this bill?
This bill renders a horrible accounting.
Newly placed gravestones. Mangled bodies. Shattered minds. Broken hearts and homes. Economic instability. Depression and all its attendant miseries. Back-breaking taxation for generations and generations."

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by brad27 » Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:28 am

And personally, I dont think we've had a war worth fighting for since 1812.
There is a whole race of people that, I'm sure, are glad you were not running this country from 1939-1945. Maybe some people on an island in the pacific also.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by romeo212000 » Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:36 am

BillThomas wrote:
Elkhunter wrote:Bill you can come run in the Region 9 SD CH in Idaho, its ran on wild birds. In fact Dgfavor took runner up with his GSP, that he hunts like 4 times a week with! Fancy that..

Im not too interested in driving to Idaho X Country to run, but thanks just the same.
My dog does what I need it to do and once outfound a NSTRA 4x Champion.
I know what I have and am happy with it.

There are faster bird dogs out there, and faster locating dogs, but not many more thorough, honest and none more versatile.
My 2 hunting buddys run trial bred Setters.
For 10+ years, my dog has proven itself time and again, and Id run her against any bitch on pheasant or in the duck blind
(2 species I hunt alot) , and she would give a very respectable showing..
I didnt say she'd show everyones best trial dogs up, but give a very respectable showing and would be a helluva lot more versatile.
And she comes from a line of pig chasing dogs in Germany. Imagine that?


Also Bill how many horseback FT have you been to?
Been to 3 trials, All in my homestate of OH, and 2 were on horseback.
(I wasnt on horseback)
Once again bill. Just because you matched finds with a successful NSTRA dog ONCE doesn't mean jack crap. I see you chose to ignore my example I gave following that ignorant statement you made so go back and read it again. When you've put just one nstra championship on a dog you can say your dog has what it takes to run with those dogs. Till then your dog didn't prove crap. But you'll count that as a win because you're too afraid to take your dog and really put yourself out there.

FYI, the really successful nstra dogs have multiple championships. I'm just asking you to try to put one on your dog before you go running your mouth about your dog matching up with the best nstra dogs.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by BillThomas » Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:19 am

brad27 wrote:
And personally, I dont think we've had a war worth fighting for since 1812.
There is a whole race of people that, I'm sure, are glad you were not running this country from 1939-1945. Maybe some people on an island in the pacific also.
That very race of people, formally decalred war on the nation it claimed violated them, in the London Times in 1933, 7 years prior to the war.
I have the News headline if you wish to see it.

And youre telling me the Japanese were happy we used Atomic weapons on them, while in the midst of a peace agreement?

60 million died over a border skirmish, land stolen in the Treaty of Versailles.
Image


Neville Chamberlain and Winston Churchill both called WW2... 'An Unnecessary War'
WW2 was nothing except a continuation of WW1, to bring us World Govt (UN), Israel, and Spreading Communism TO 11 nations.
General Patton called WW2 a Defeat, wanting to ReArm Germany to invade USSR.
Last edited by BillThomas on Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by BillThomas » Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:22 am

romeo212000 wrote: Once again bill. Just because you matched finds with a successful NSTRA dog ONCE doesn't mean jack crap. I see you chose to ignore my example I gave following that ignorant statement you made so go back and read it again. When you've put just one nstra championship on a dog you can say your dog has what it takes to run with those dogs. Till then your dog didn't prove crap. But you'll count that as a win because you're too afraid to take your dog and really put yourself out there.

FYI, the really successful nstra dogs have multiple championships. I'm just asking you to try to put one on your dog before you go running your mouth about your dog matching up with the best nstra dogs.

We didnt match.
We bested the best dog there, outfound him 3 to 2, though bird 3 was a wild flush, out of bounds and not counted.
We were headed straight for that bird.

It was a typical run from my dog, whom Ivehunted with for 10+ years. Ive had good days and bad days, but mostly good.
Im content with what I have and what was proven to me that day and other days.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by dan v » Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:24 am

BillThomas wrote: We bested the best dog there, outfound him 3 to 2, though bird 3 was a wild flush, out of bounds and not counted.
By anybody's definition of a "find" other than your own.....you didn't "outfound" the other dog.
Dan

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by slistoe » Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:26 am

I was braced with a NGDC one time and we won our brace. Didn't get a single placement at the trial, but I guess I should have quit trialing right there and declared my dogs as being better than all National Champion dogs.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by romeo212000 » Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:32 am

BillThomas wrote:
romeo212000 wrote: Once again bill. Just because you matched finds with a successful NSTRA dog ONCE doesn't mean jack crap. I see you chose to ignore my example I gave following that ignorant statement you made so go back and read it again. When you've put just one nstra championship on a dog you can say your dog has what it takes to run with those dogs. Till then your dog didn't prove crap. But you'll count that as a win because you're too afraid to take your dog and really put yourself out there.

FYI, the really successful nstra dogs have multiple championships. I'm just asking you to try to put one on your dog before you go running your mouth about your dog matching up with the best nstra dogs.

We didnt match.
We bested the best dog there, outfound him 3 to 2, though bird 3 was a wild flush, out of bounds and not counted.
We were headed straight for that bird.

It was a typical run from my dog, whom Ivehunted with for 10+ years. Ive had good days and bad days, but mostly good.
Im content with what I have and what was proven to me that day and other days.
It doesn't matter whether you matched him or out found him by one bird. Which, if it doesn't get on the card it didn't happen by the way. You can make all the excuses you want, and take whatever personal victory you think you earned there, but your dog hadn't proved crap. heck, it hasn't even placed. Again, try putting just one nstra championship on your little prince. Till then, you haven't proven jack crap. Obviously you ignored my previous example so I'll give it again.

When I first started I ran my female against what was at the time a 2x champion and current top dog in the region. My female out found that dog 3 birds to 2. According to your logic I proved my dog was better than his. Both dogs are gone now and that dog I ran against ended up being a 4x champion, OK region elimination CH, national runner up, and OK high point dog.

You know what my female accomplished. Not one "bleep" thing. She never placed, let alone championed out. Your logic is laughable at best and this is just one example of that. Your dog didn't prove crap, and I'm pretty sure the reason you actually aren't going back is your afraid your dog might not actually back up your mouth when it comes down to it. I'll repeat this again, one brace doesn't mean squat.

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