Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

[BillThomas]

I was braced with a NGDC one time and we won our brace. Didn't get a single placement at the trial, but I guess I should have quit trialing right there and declared my dogs as being better than all National Champion dogs.

I didnt buy a Hunting dog to chase ribbons and planted chukar with over 40 acres.
Id rather be coon hunting , hunting late season grouse or geese personally.

Matching/Outfinding the best dog there was rewarding, but once was enough.
A NSTRA title on a German Import versatile means next to nothing for the hunters I know...

[BillThomas]

We bested the best dog there, outfound him 3 to 2, though bird 3 was a wild flush, out of bounds and not counted.

By anybody's definition of a "find" other than your own.....you didn't "outfound" the other dog.

True.
Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda...
But matching the best and this close to outfinding was personally rewarding for the owner of a pig chasing, ugly dog.

[romeo212000]

We bested the best dog there, outfound him 3 to 2, though bird 3 was a wild flush, out of bounds and not counted.

By anybody's definition of a "find" other than your own.....you didn't "outfound" the other dog.

True.
Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda...
But matching the best and this close to outfinding was personally rewarding for the owner of a pig chasing, ugly dog.

It may be personally rewarding, but your dog did not prove it was on the same level as other successful nstra dogs, including the one you ran against. You think it does, but it doesn't. This is why no one respects your opinion. You twist things to suit your statements, but nobody is fooled by your drivel.

And once again you're refusing to address my example because you know how foolish it makes you look.

[romeo212000]

I was braced with a NGDC one time and we won our brace. Didn't get a single placement at the trial, but I guess I should have quit trialing right there and declared my dogs as being better than all National Champion dogs.

I didnt buy a Hunting dog to chase ribbons and planted chukar with over 40 acres.
Id rather be coon hunting , hunting late season grouse or geese personally.

Matching/Outfinding the best dog there was rewarding, but once was enough.
A NSTRA title on a German Import versatile means next to nothing for the hunters I know...

Once was enough because you figured you'd take your tiny individual victory and leave with your dignity in tact is all.

[BillThomas]

It doesn't matter whether you matched him or out found him by one bird. Which, if it doesn't get on the card it didn't happen by the way. You can make all the excuses you want, and take whatever personal victory you think you earned there, but your dog hadn't proved crap. heck, it hasn't even placed. .

Its hard to place when you run a near dead heat with the best dog there, progeny of the NSTRA Runner up dog of the Year and 4x Champ. Moral Victory for us, nothing more.

Again, try putting just one nstra championship on your little prince. Till then, you haven't proven jack crap. Obviously you ignored my previous example so I'll give it again.

No interest in it. A
UKC HRC title would be more fun...maybe one day if theres no more hunting, Id run NSTRA Again.
Nothing against it, just not my cup of tea to run a 30 minute brace, Id rather guide for 2-3 hours and enjoy myself and the dog.

You know what my female accomplished. Not one "bleep" thing. She never placed, let alone championed out. Your logic is laughable at best and this is just one example of that. Your dog didn't prove crap, and I'm pretty sure the reason you actually aren't going back is your afraid your dog might not actually back up your mouth when it comes down to it. I'll repeat this again, one brace doesn't mean squat.

My logic is that a Euro bred, Standard bred, Pig chasing DD, matched and came close to bettering the top dog in my Region.
And her Grand Sire Won the MN Open Pheasant Championship.
Our dogs are getting it done, just not only in the fields , but in the blinds, and in the forests too.
Why ask less from your dog?

[BillThomas]

Once was enough because you figured you'd take your tiny individual victory and leave with your dignity in tact is all.

When I found out, as a newcomer, I was matched with the winngest dog in the Region, I was initially sick-trial by fire.

When we were matched in finds, and were on our way to a victory, if not for a wild flush, I was very proud.

I think I had every right to be.
I was a newbie, as was my dog. First timers. And we proved alot to alot of people there.

You can try to cheapen it any way you like, but did I mention that right after the trial, I went and trained with my UKC HRC buddies with the same dog?

[BillThomas]

It may be personally rewarding, but your dog did not prove it was on the same level as other successful nstra dogs, including the one you ran against. You think it does, but it doesn't. .

If I Matched the Top dog there at NSTRA, as a newbie, with a newbie dog, and was within 60 yards and a wild flush of Outfinding that same top dog, how is that Not proving my dog was the same level as other successful NSTRA dogs?

This is why no one respects your opinion. You twist things to suit your statements, but nobody is fooled by your drivel.

Im not seeking affirmation or popularity. I dont care what others think.

And once again you're refusing to address my example because you know how foolish it makes you look.

I cant address what I dont understand. Try to make it coherant and I will address it.

[romeo212000]

It doesn't matter whether you matched him or out found him by one bird. Which, if it doesn't get on the card it didn't happen by the way. You can make all the excuses you want, and take whatever personal victory you think you earned there, but your dog hadn't proved crap. heck, it hasn't even placed. .

Its hard to place when you run a near dead heat with the best dog there, progeny of the NSTRA Runner up dog of the Year and 4x Champ. Moral Victory for us, nothing more.

Again, try putting just one nstra championship on your little prince. Till then, you haven't proven jack crap. Obviously you ignored my previous example so I'll give it again.

No interest in it. A UKC HRC title would be more fun...maybe one day if theres no more hunting, Id run NSTRA Again.
Nothing against it, just not my cup of tea to run a 30 minute brace, Id rather guide for 2-3 hours and enjoy myself and the dog.

You know what my female accomplished. Not one "bleep" thing. She never placed, let alone championed out. Your logic is laughable at best and this is just one example of that. Your dog didn't prove crap, and I'm pretty sure the reason you actually aren't going back is your afraid your dog might not actually back up your mouth when it comes down to it. I'll repeat this again, one brace doesn't mean squat.

My logic is that a Euro bred, Standard bred, Pig chasing DD, matched and came close to bettering the top dog in my Region.
And her Grand Sire Won the MN Open Pheasant Championship.
Our dogs are getting it done, just not only in the fields , but in the blinds, and in the forests too.
Why ask less from your dog?

No bill. It doesn't prove a "bleep" thing. That's why you champion a dog out be earning 18 points, 9 of which needing to be first place points. Most people wouldn't place on that dog, even the best ones. That's why you put your money where your mouth is and actually go compete if you're going to run your mouth about besting one of the better nstra dogs. Instead you're going to be a coward and make very bold statements based on one insignificant brace.

You know why you like hunt tests Bill? Because you're not competing against anyone. Just the standard. You don't have to worry about your dog getting beat by another dog because they're not competing against one another. You're a coward and that's painfully obvious to everyone on here.

[romeo212000]

It may be personally rewarding, but your dog did not prove it was on the same level as other successful nstra dogs, including the one you ran against. You think it does, but it doesn't. .

If I Matched the Top dog there at NSTRA, as a newbie, with a newbie dog, and was within 60 yards and a wild flush of Outfinding that same top dog, how is that Not proving my dog was the same level as other successful NSTRA dogs?

This is why no one respects your opinion. You twist things to suit your statements, but nobody is fooled by your drivel.

Im not seeking affirmation or popularity. I dont care what others think.

And once again you're refusing to address my example because you know how foolish it makes you look.

I cant address what I dont understand. Try to make it coherant and I will address it.

Because bill, one single brave that didn't even result in a placement doesn't mean anything. That's what you're refusing to see. As with my example, even though I best that dog in one single brace it is painfully obvious who the better dog was. You choose to take your tiny individual "victory" and not return because you're afraid the same will happen to you. The difference between you and I is I learned what I had to and got better dogs. You'll just continue to run your mouth about one single insignificant brace as if you beat him in the final hour of a national championship though.

[BillThomas]

You know why you like hunt tests Bill? Because you're not competing against anyone. Just the standard. You don't have to worry about your dog getting beat by another dog because they're not competing against one another. You're a coward and that's painfully obvious to everyone on here.

The TOP lab trialers in the World Retrieving Series (SRS) are majority UKC Hunt Test dogs, Not Trial dogs.
Sort of blows that theory out of the water, huh?

No bill. It doesn't prove a "bleep" thing. That's why you champion a dog out be earning 18 points, 9 of which needing to be first place points. Most people wouldn't place on that dog, even the best ones. That's why you put your money where your mouth is and actually go compete if you're going to run your mouth about besting one of the better nstra dogs. Instead you're going to be a coward and make very bold statements based on one insignificant brace.

I matched the top dog in my region. As a newbie, not even knowing the rules.
We had the advantage inthe last 5 minutes on the way to Find #3 vs 2. Far as Finds go, we were in the running.
Thats what I take and others take from it.
If I wagered who had the best dog that day against the top dog, I won.
And I wasnt in it to compete, but to have fun. Which I did. Just dont have the bug to compete.
I already did that in football at the highest levels and Im content with what I have, which is a hunting dog.
Im sure the owner of the dog we ran against would tell you he'd feed and compete with my dog.
Course thats an assumption on my part.

[romeo212000]

You know why you like hunt tests Bill? Because you're not competing against anyone. Just the standard. You don't have to worry about your dog getting beat by another dog because they're not competing against one another. You're a coward and that's painfully obvious to everyone on here.

The TOP lab trialers in the World Retrieving Series (SRS) are majority UKC Hunt Test dogs, Not Trial dogs.
Sort of blows that theory out of the water, huh?

No bill. It doesn't prove a "bleep" thing. That's why you champion a dog out be earning 18 points, 9 of which needing to be first place points. Most people wouldn't place on that dog, even the best ones. That's why you put your money where your mouth is and actually go compete if you're going to run your mouth about besting one of the better nstra dogs. Instead you're going to be a coward and make very bold statements based on one insignificant brace.

I matched the top dog in my region. As a newbie, not even knowing the rules.
We had the advantage inthe last 5 minutes on the way to Find #3 vs 2. Far as Finds go, we were in the running.
Thats what I take and others take from it.
If I wagered who had the best dog that day agains tthe top dog, I won.
And I wasnt in it to compete, but to have fun. Which I did. Just dont have the bug to compete. I already did that in football at the highest levels.

Use whatever logic you need to console yourself, but my example is obvious and it fits you to a tee. You didn't prove crap and anyone who knows anything about nstra knows that one brave doesn't prove anything. Go trial for a whole season and report back to me how many points you earned. Till you do that your opinion of your dog compared to any other nstra dog will be dismissed.

Regarding the labs. Even those dogs that were hunt test dogs eventually put their necks on the line in competition. So my theory is still plenty valid.

[BillThomas]

Use whatever logic you need to console yourself, but my example is obvious and it fits you to a tee. You didn't prove crap and anyone who knows anything about nstra knows that one brave doesn't prove anything. Go trial for a whole season and report back to me how many points you earned. Till you do that your opinion of your dog as a nstra dog will be dismissed.

Why would I trial during hunting season?

The dogs I ran against cant do Half of the things my dogs can, like sit calmly in a duck blind, fetch my ducks, or doves, or blood track deer, or find the crippled phez we shoot.

Again, Im content with our Match of finds against the top dog in our region.
Perhaps it means ittle to you, frankly, i dont care, even a little bit. And Im in no way bragging.

Now.... if I won the Minnesota Open Pheasant Championship, Running Behind 4 Longtails that had 0 finds, Ran last, AND still Won it all by outfinding every dog there that day, like my dogs Grand Sire Timo V Richtof, well then Id be bragging.
But Timos owner wouldnt be.

[BillThomas]

Regarding the labs. Even those dogs that were hunt test dogs eventually put their necks on the line in competition. So my theory is still plenty valid.

The SRS Retreiver World Series is fairly new.

Much newer than UKC / NAHRA Hunt Tests.

There was no neck on the line in the Hunt tests, but it darn sure isnt an easy test.

Try one and see how you do....Than get back to me.

[Elkhunter]

Bill if you played football at the highest level then you obviously realize that one brace, or one football game does not amount to greatness! How many pro football players had 1-2 great games then disappeared forever? I bet it is dozens and dozens of players. You realize that, you are just too proud to admit it. Stick with your dog and have fun with him, the difference is I wont get on here and start thread after thread attacking him!

Also when we gonna see some pics of this dog of yours at work! I have shown you many of mine! Put em up!

[romeo212000]

Use whatever logic you need to console yourself, but my example is obvious and it fits you to a tee. You didn't prove crap and anyone who knows anything about nstra knows that one brave doesn't prove anything. Go trial for a whole season and report back to me how many points you earned. Till you do that your opinion of your dog as a nstra dog will be dismissed.

Why would I trial during hunting season?

The dogs I ran against cant do Half of the things my dogs can, like sit calmly in a duck blind, fetch my ducks, or doves, or blood track deer, or find the crippled phez we shoot.

Again, Im content with our Match of finds against the top dog in our region.
Perhaps it means ittle to you, frankly, i dont care, even a little bit. And Im in no way bragging.

Now.... if I won the Minnesota Open Pheasant Championship, Running Behind 4 Longtails that had 0 finds, Ran last, AND still Won it all by outfinding every dog there that day, like my dogs Grand Sire Timo V Richtof, well then Id be bragging.
But Timos owner wouldnt be.

That's because they aren't trained or bred to. And I'm betting if you really compete you'll get your arse waxed multiple times. That's why you're content with your one little brace.

Also, I don't know how it is in Ohio but down here our trailing season breaks for hunting season.

[BrassVols]

Once was enough because you figured you'd take your tiny individual victory and leave with your dignity in tact is all.

When I found out, as a newcomer, I was matched with the winngest dog in the Region, I was initially sick-trial by fire.

When we were matched in finds, and were on our way to a victory, if not for a wild flush, I was very proud.

I think I had every right to be.
I was a newbie, as was my dog. First timers. And we proved alot to alot of people there.

You can try to cheapen it any way you like, but did I mention that right after the trial, I went and trained with my UKC HRC buddies with the same dog?

There seems to be a common theme with your posts (other than your disapproval of FT's), a extraordinary use of "I ", very telling....

[BillThomas]

Bill if you played football at the highest level then you obviously realize that one brace, or one football game does not amount to greatness! How many pro football players had 1-2 great games then disappeared forever? I bet it is dozens and dozens of players. You realize that, you are just too proud to admit it. Stick with your dog and have fun with him, the difference is I wont get on here and start thread after thread attacking him!

Also when we gonna see some pics of this dog of yours at work! I have shown you many of mine! Put em up!

As stated, Ive hunted my dog With other dogs for 10 years.
Im content with what I have, which is simply a very versatile, respectable dog.
Nothing more.

1 performance does not a career make, true enough, but that 1 performance can not be discounted or cheapened either, IF the competition was legitimate.

Players get railroaded by coaches, agents, owners or have health issues.
I get your point but its not as easy as youd like to pretend it is as a valid comparison.

[ezzy333]

General question to ALL....would it be fair to say that trialers would be happier when there is LESS game on the course??? But, if a dog finds too much game. wouldn't that be evidence of a dogs ability as a game finder??? Maybe the dog wouldn't be able to get rolling..but it surely couldn't be criticized for passing game by.

No, and here is the reason why. In a lot of trials we lack the wild birds to have consistent trials on wild birds solely. So we have to plant birds so that we have bird work, then you bring in lazy bird planters that plant birds in the horse path instead of on the edges or objectives to reward dogs that cast out towards promising areas. Perfect example I ran in a derby about a year and a half ago, my EP went birdless but was on the edges OFF the horse path hitting objectives that he normally finds wild birds on. He was never in the horse path but searching out to likely objectives. Bad thing was there were no birds planted outside the horse path. My brace mate a young brittany had like 6 finds, 50 yards in front of the horse never leaving the horse path. So in reality he found more birds than me, but I would not take that dog over mine any day in the chukar hills. But lets say my dog did have one find on the edge at a likely objective and showed desire and range through out the brace and was hitting the spots he was supposed too, I would expect him to place over the dog that found 5 birds in the horse path. JMO

In a wild bird trial I would obviously want my dog to find as many as possible!

I understand what you are saying but how do you fault a dog that pointed the birds in the horse path if that is where they were. Should it just ignore those, run over them, or what? The dog did exactly what I would want any good dog to do, find the birds, point the birds, and handle them when I get there.

Ezzy

[BillThomas]

That's because they aren't trained or bred to. And I'm betting if you really compete you'll get your arse waxed multiple times. That's why you're content with your one little brace.

Also, I don't know how it is in Ohio but down here our trailing season breaks for hunting season.

This is the OH region NSTRA.
They run ALL through hunt season, from Aug through Dec.
http://ohioregion.tripod.com/id2.html

Same goes for neighboring Indiana
http://www.nstra.org/indiana.htm

And Kentucky..All during Hunting season
http://www.nstra.org/kentucky.htm


I ran once, did as well as I wanted to and then some.
Ive no desire to run again, and were it not brought up, I dont offer it out or brag on my dog.

[BillThomas]

There seems to be a common theme with your posts (other than your disapproval of FT's), a extraordinary use of "I ", very telling....

If someone is personally challenging your performance, how can one not use the word 'I'.?

Unless youd rather I speak and adress myself/dog in the 3rd person...

[romeo212000]

Bill if you played football at the highest level then you obviously realize that one brace, or one football game does not amount to greatness! How many pro football players had 1-2 great games then disappeared forever? I bet it is dozens and dozens of players. You realize that, you are just too proud to admit it. Stick with your dog and have fun with him, the difference is I wont get on here and start thread after thread attacking him!

Also when we gonna see some pics of this dog of yours at work! I have shown you many of mine! Put em up!

As stated, Ive hunted my dog With other dogs for 10 years.
Im content with what I have, which is simply a very versatile, respectable dog.
Nothing more.

1 performance does not a career make, true enough, but that 1 performance can not be discounted or cheapened either, IF the competition was legitimate.

Players get railroaded by coaches, agents, owners or have health issues.
I get your point but its not as easy as youd like to pretend it is as a valid comparison.

Nobody is discounting your dog as a respectable versatile hunting dog. You are the one discounting others trial dogs as respectable hunting dogs, and putting your own on a pedestal.

I'm not discounting your decent run against a good nstra dog, but you're making it out to be more than it is. It's not even the equivalent of winning a football game. You were an also ran. Sorry, but it doesn't prove anything to anyone but you.

[jetjockey]

General question to ALL....would it be fair to say that trialers would be happier when there is LESS game on the course??? But, if a dog finds too much game. wouldn't that be evidence of a dogs ability as a game finder??? Maybe the dog wouldn't be able to get rolling..but it surely couldn't be criticized for passing game by.

No, and here is the reason why. In a lot of trials we lack the wild birds to have consistent trials on wild birds solely. So we have to plant birds so that we have bird work, then you bring in lazy bird planters that plant birds in the horse path instead of on the edges or objectives to reward dogs that cast out towards promising areas. Perfect example I ran in a derby about a year and a half ago, my EP went birdless but was on the edges OFF the horse path hitting objectives that he normally finds wild birds on. He was never in the horse path but searching out to likely objectives. Bad thing was there were no birds planted outside the horse path. My brace mate a young brittany had like 6 finds, 50 yards in front of the horse never leaving the horse path. So in reality he found more birds than me, but I would not take that dog over mine any day in the chukar hills. But lets say my dog did have one find on the edge at a likely objective and showed desire and range through out the brace and was hitting the spots he was supposed too, I would expect him to place over the dog that found 5 birds in the horse path. JMO

In a wild bird trial I would obviously want my dog to find as many as possible!

I understand what you are saying but how do you fault a dog that pointed the birds in the horse path if that is where they were. Should it just ignore those, run over them, or what? The dog did exactly what I would want any good dog to do, find the birds, point the birds, and handle them when I get there.

Ezzy

The problem is when birds are not where they are supposed to be due to man made influences. In wild bird trials you don't need to worry about it. But in trials, where there are released birds, they should be released in a fashion more typical with where wild birds would actually be. You can't fault a dog who finds one bird where birds are typically found and hunts the cover appropriately and praise a dog who points a bird found in unnatural cover like the middle of a field in the middle of the day.

[BillThomas]

Nobody is discounting your dog as a respectable versatile hunting dog.

No, But as a bird finding dog Ive seen it time and again here.

You are the one discounting others trial dogs as respectable hunting dogs, and putting your own on a pedestal.

Ive said multiple times, Extreme dogs have their place, and a trial dog might be a better tool for hunting plantation quail in the South, Western Chukar or Prarie Sharpies than a 80# Versatile.
But I can get alot more use out of that 80# Versatile with the hunting I (And Most US hunters) do and still limit on the birds you hunt, perhaps not quite as fast, but fast enough as I can walk.

I'm not discounting your decent run against a good nstra dog, but you're making it out to be more than it is.

Dont mean for it to.
I know it wasnt Ames, but give me a break.
We took on the Top Regionnal dog there, as a newbie, Matched Him, and "bleep" near beat him.

It's not even the equivalent of winning a football game. You were an also ran. Sorry, but it doesn't prove anything to anyone but you.

The difference is that Ive played On National TV, ON ESPN, Have a Bowl Ring, Played against 2 Heisman Trophy winners, Defending Natl Champions, and many guys & teammates in the NFL (Barry Sanders, Chris Spielman, Deion Sanders, Darrel Thompson et al) , and you havent.
Thats not braggin either.

[ezzy333]

I always felt the good dogs find the birds that are where they should be(?) but it takes the outstanding dog to find them when they are not where we think they should be. I have a dog like that, he is the one that finds birds when the other dogs can't. People who hunt with us notice it too. A pro that I have known for years that we try to get together with a couple of times a year to relax and just hunt comments on it everytime we are out.

Ezzy

[romeo212000]

Nobody is discounting your dog as a respectable versatile hunting dog.

No, But as a bird finding dog Ive seen it time and again here.

You are the one discounting others trial dogs as respectable hunting dogs, and putting your own on a pedestal.

Ive said multiple times, Extreme dogs have their place, and a trial dog might be a better tool for hunting plantation quail in the South, Western Chukar or Prarie Sharpies than a 80# Versatile.
But I can get alot more use out of that 80# Versatile with the hunting I (And Most US hunters) do and still limit on the birds you hunt, perhaps not quite as fast, but fast enough as I can walk.

I'm not discounting your decent run against a good nstra dog, but you're making it out to be more than it is.

Dont mean for it to.
I know it wasnt Ames, but give me a break.
We took on the Top Regionnal dog there, as a newbie, Matched Him, and "bleep" near beat him.

It's not even the equivalent of winning a football game. You were an also ran. Sorry, but it doesn't prove anything to anyone but you.

The difference is that Ive played On National TV, ON ESPN, Have a Bowl Ring, Played against 2 Heisman Trophy winners, Defending Natl Champions, and many guys & teammates in the NFL (Barry Sanders, Chris Spielman, Deion Sanders, Darrel Thompson et al) , and you havent.
Thats not braggin either.

If thats not bragging I don't know what is. You're an even bigger blowhard than I thought.

Also, you placing so much emphasis on a single insignificant run against a good dog shows just how little you actually know about that venue. Lots of dogs can go find a couple of birds against a good dog. Plenty of them will never sniff a championship.

[BrassVols]

Montana Open Shooting Dog Championship
Hawthorn Kate Pointer female emerged as the winner in the Montana Open SD Championship for her very proud handler, Jim Tande. Kate is co-owned by Jim Tande and Dan Miller this is kates second championship to go along with a couple of runner up championships. Shawn Kinkelaar handled Nella Running Tab, owned by Vagas Mathiesen to the runner up spot based on a six find performance in this prestigious wild bird trial.

Here was one of those trial dogs that could hunt wild birds!!!!! Hey Billy, is six finds with blown pads in an hour enough for you?

Yes, but will it tree a coon?

[jetjockey]

I always felt the good dogs find the birds that are where they should be(?) but it takes the outstanding dog to find them when they are not where we think they should be. I have a dog like that, he is the one that finds birds when the other dogs can't. People who hunt with us notice it too. A pro that I have known for years that we try to get together with a couple of times a year to relax and just hunt comments on it everytime we are out.

Ezzy

It's still wild birds vs planted birds. In wild bird trials after the birds have been moved several times it gets tougher and tougher on the dogs to find them. It's different when birds are where they aren't supposed to be because they aren't wild birds and someone put them in places that are unnatural. It's kinda like laying up in golf but over hitting the ball and sinking it from 200 yards out. It wasn't skill that sunk that shot when that's not what you were trying to do. No different then a dog stumbling into birds that were placed in unnatural areas. Just because a dog found a bird that was poorly placed doesn't mean it's good. It's too bad there aren't more wild bird trials, those trials can show what a dog is made of.

[BillThomas]

If thats not bragging I don't know what is. You're an even bigger blowhard than I thought. .

I didnt think was being a blowhard, if it was true.
Did I mention that I was 3rd on the team in receptions, and have 2 game balls?

Also, you placing so much emphasis on a single insignificant run against a good dog shows just how little you actually know about that venue.
Lots of dogs can go find a couple of birds against a good dog. Plenty of them will never sniff a championship.

I never said we were championship caliber, but that we could run against the best there, make a darn fine showing, and compete for the most finds, with ALOT of good titled and proven dogs.
And we did just that. And I never even read the rule book.

[BillThomas]

It's still wild birds vs planted birds. In wild bird trials after the birds have been moved several times it gets tougher and tougher on the dogs to find them. It's different when birds are where they aren't supposed to be because they aren't wild birds and someone put them in places that are unnatural. It's kinda like laying up in golf but over hitting the ball and sinking it from 200 yards out. It wasn't skill that sunk that shot when that's not what you were trying to do. No different then a dog stumbling into birds that were placed in unnatural areas. Just because a dog found a bird that was poorly placed doesn't mean it's good. It's too bad there aren't more wild bird trials, those trials can show what a dog is made of.

How is it, In Wild Bird Trials, that a winner can be pronunced, EVEN if NO birds are found or pointed by any dogs?

[cstokes/southeast,ks]

Wow, I have learned so much about bird dogs from all these "Bill Thomas" threads...... Oh wait, never mind it was about Bill Thomas that I had been reading about all this time......

Foolish me.

[Buckeye_V]

Bill - just because you think you did well does not mean you actually did well in the general perception of others. I think that is the point you continually ignore, talk around, give bad analogies about and just generally miss. Give it up bud.

[jetjockey]

It's still wild birds vs planted birds. In wild bird trials after the birds have been moved several times it gets tougher and tougher on the dogs to find them. It's different when birds are where they aren't supposed to be because they aren't wild birds and someone put them in places that are unnatural. It's kinda like laying up in golf but over hitting the ball and sinking it from 200 yards out. It wasn't skill that sunk that shot when that's not what you were trying to do. No different then a dog stumbling into birds that were placed in unnatural areas. Just because a dog found a bird that was poorly placed doesn't mean it's good. It's too bad there aren't more wild bird trials, those trials can show what a dog is made of.

How is it, In Wild Bird Trials, that a winner can be pronunced, EVEN if NO birds are found or pointed by any dogs?

If you were half as smart as you thought you were you would know that they can't. But then again you already knew that because you had a dog from trial lines and you have been to 3 HB trials while admittedly you never even rode a horse at those 3 trials. But then, you talked to a bunch of Pros, so how is it that you don't know that a dog above puppy stakes has to have bird work in order to place

[ElhewPointer]

If thats not bragging I don't know what is. You're an even bigger blowhard than I thought. .

I didnt think was being a blowhard, if it was true.
Did I mention that I was 3rd on the team in receptions, and have 2 game balls?

Also, you placing so much emphasis on a single insignificant run against a good dog shows just how little you actually know about that venue.
Lots of dogs can go find a couple of birds against a good dog. Plenty of them will never sniff a championship.

I never said we were championship caliber, but that we could run against the best there, make a darn fine showing, and compete for the most finds, with ALOT of good titled and proven dogs.
And we did just that. And I never even read the rule book.

Thats because you cant read.

[ezzy333]

It's still wild birds vs planted birds. In wild bird trials after the birds have been moved several times it gets tougher and tougher on the dogs to find them. It's different when birds are where they aren't supposed to be because they aren't wild birds and someone put them in places that are unnatural. It's kinda like laying up in golf but over hitting the ball and sinking it from 200 yards out. It wasn't skill that sunk that shot when that's not what you were trying to do. No different then a dog stumbling into birds that were placed in unnatural areas. Just because a dog found a bird that was poorly placed doesn't mean it's good. It's too bad there aren't more wild bird trials, those trials can show what a dog is made of.

How is it, In Wild Bird Trials, that a winner can be pronunced, EVEN if NO birds are found or pointed by any dogs?

Bill once again you have asked a question you know the answer to as I am sure any 10 year old could also. How do they declare a winner in ice skating or many other sports where they don't keep score?

Ezzy

[rschmeider]

Hey Bill - what FT in Ohio did you go to? I've been to 75% of all horseback trials in OH for the last 5 years and have NEVER seen you.

Just curious.

I would take any of my "horseback" FT dogs and enjoy cleaning your clock in the grouse woods with them

If you want to hunt, look me up in October and November, Phez or grouse is fine with me.
You better like walking hills to hunt grouse, & as you may or may not know, limits are very hard to come by.
Ill be going to MI-UP in mid Oct and be hunting in the hills when the leaves fall.
And guiding phez and sitting in the duck blind in Nov.
Youre welcome to hunt with me anytime.

Hey....You need to show up at the AKC>Oakridge Cover Dog trial(wild BIRDS)...Its only a couple hrs away ...The dates are .24/25 NOV.....i just got the dates ,,,I'll post them in the events...When i was helping clearing trials i seen to 2 sets of grouse with chicks...One had 5 the other i seen 3 or more in heavy cover.
Oakridge is a all breed club...hope to get all breeds thier..My AFC/FC meat dog will be thier...I hope to hunt down by the river for geese in the afternoon.

[BillThomas]

Thats because you cant read.

Funny you say that as I am a speed reader.
Besides Tapping Kegs, it was the other only valuable class and skill I learned in college.

I do find it amazing that out of 3 million sperm, you were the fastest.

[BillThomas]

Bill once again you have asked a question you know the answer to as I am sure any 10 year old could also. How do they declare a winner in ice skating or many other sports where they don't keep score?

Ezzy

Im sorry, if I knew I wouldnt have asked.

I would simply declare a mistrial or rain out makeup so to speak.

[WillowyndRanch]

It summarizes that trialers Breeding for frantic paced, overly animated, 1 hour extreme dogs, is ruining hunting dogs.

Bill,
This line alone is very telling of your opinion. I actually USED to believe the same thing 25 years ago. As with Hunters that move from the "kill" quantifying success afield to the enjoyment of a perfectly worked bird at sunset on a great landscape with friends over a dog of your own breeding enabling one to claim Success as a SPORTSMAN, the same holds true - in my opinion - here. A couple very well written pieces explain the reasoning behind WHY a Field trial dog that hits the extremes IS entirely important to having your hunting dog still bearing the instinct and quality to hunt are included below. Every time I read posts like yours I think of "Drag of the Race".
I apologize if someone else has already posted these - I just couldn't read any more without responding...

http://www.miravizslas.com/Vizslas%20Wh ... Trials.pdf

http://www.thecheckcord.com/archives/trialstests.html

[BillThomas]

Hey....You need to show up at the AKC>Oakridge Cover Dog trial(wild BIRDS)...Its only a couple hrs away ...The dates are .24/25 NOV.....i just got the dates ,,,I'll post them in the events...When i was helping clearing trials i seen to 2 sets of grouse with chicks...One had 5 the other i seen 3 or more in heavy cover.
Oakridge is a all breed club...hope to get all breeds thier..My AFC/FC meat dog will be thier...I hope to hunt down by the river for geese in the afternoon.

I dont own an AKC dog, its 8 hrs away and I have a 10+ yr old dog.
And Im not sure I have a real interest in a Cover dog trial. Ive never claimed to owned the fastest dog.
WHeres an idea. Why dont you win / place/ show it and then PM me.

We can go on a hunt, 1 hour long,
I know of some nice land 600 acres, private grounds that are used for occasional trials.
No peppered birds, just liberated and wild ones.

Id point it, Something like:
3 pts for retrieve to hand. Lose 3 Pts IF your dog fails to recover a legitimate cripple.
2 points for bird produced.
1 pt for back.

I will have no unfair advanatage, Ive hunted this land twice in 10 years. Its a large tract and there are many birds.
Ill run with a 10 year old meat dog. And it can be filmed for posterity sake.

We can hunt ducks that evening near roosting time too with the same dogs.

[rschmeider]

Hey whatever...I 'm not scared to drop a tail gate...Sounds good!! You can reg your dog AKC...My boy is 4 and he has 38 KS dogs in his ped...I say he is a meat dog.

[BillThomas]

Hey whatever...I 'm not scared to drop a tail gate...Sounds good!! You can reg your dog AKC...My boy is 4 and he has 38 KS dogs in his ped...I say he is a meat dog.

Im not interested in registering my dog with a Registry that I have nothing but contempt for.
I would not jump through any hoops to try to cross register my dog to AKC.



Im really not interested in dropping a tailgate during hunting season, 8 hours away, for an 11 yr old dog, in an event Ive no interest in, with dogs less than half our age in an event based on little but speed and style. I own a meat dog, remember?


Thanks all the same, but like I said... Win, place, or show it, and then PM me.
Bring your best Bitch.
Ill take you hunting on trial grounds that holds a fair amount of birds, I think I posted a fair point system and it will be a good time.
I think we will give anyone a very good run, especially on phez.

[rschmeider]

Hey....You need to show up at the AKC>Oakridge Cover Dog trial(wild BIRDS)...Its only a couple hrs away ...The dates are .24/25 NOV.....i just got the dates ,,,I'll post them in the events...When i was helping clearing trials i seen to 2 sets of grouse with chicks...One had 5 the other i seen 3 or more in heavy cover.
Oakridge is a all breed club...hope to get all breeds thier..My AFC/FC meat dog will be thier...I hope to hunt down by the river for geese in the afternoon.

I dont own an AKC dog, its 8 hrs away and I have a 10+ yr old dog.
And Im not sure I have a real interest in a Cover dog trial. Ive never claimed to owned the fastest dog.
WHeres an idea. Why dont you win / place/ show it and then PM me.

PM sent ...I took runners up, 2nd....I got old schooled by Ernie( dam setter) ....My dog had 2 unproductive finds never produced the second bird...Runner.
You don't have to come,,But i hope Buckeye V can >>>Good guy to hang around with..Will shoot geese and Drink some Peach Thunder by the creek bank.

[BillThomas]

I dont own an AKC dog, its 8 hrs away and I have a 10+ yr old dog.
And Im not sure I have a real interest in a Cover dog trial. Ive never claimed to owned the fastest dog.
WHeres an idea. Why dont you win / place/ show it and then PM me.

PM sent ...I took runners up, 2nd....I got old schooled by Ernie( dam setter) ....My dog had 2 unproductive finds never produced the second bird...Runner.
You don't have to come,,But i hope Buckeye V can >>>Good guy to hang around with..Will shoot geese and Drink some Peach Thunder by the creek bank. [/quote]

Thanks.
Appreciate the offer.
Not sure how Id point unproductives, maybe a -1

And failure to retrieve to hand should probably be a forfeit or DQ
I think thats fair. If your dog is broke, it shouldnt be a problem.

[ElhewPointer]

Now youre changing the rules. Come on Billy, make up your mind.

[BillThomas]

Now youre changing the rules. Come on Billy, make up your mind.

This isnt AF Trial rules.
Im leveling the playing field to a real hunt situation. Its basic Euro Trial type rules.

I thought about it, and I think a Cripple loss is a Forfeit. Auto DQ.
Failure to hand is also a severe penalty.

For someone like you with a broke dog, it shouldnt be an issue.
Come on out, bring a bitch and we can run them..the early Fall cover means you might not see in front of you 30 feets but that shouldnt be an issue. Birds will be in the thickets.
I will have fun watching your dog run to the first 'objective' a half mile off.

[ElhewPointer]

Id come on out, bring a dog and listen to you bitch. hahaha

[BillThomas]

Id come on out, bring a dog and listen to you bitch. hahaha

Thats why I said bring video or sign a waiver that vid is fine...your excuses wouldnt work.

I would have fun watching your dog run to the first 'objective' a half mile off, when the cover is 10 feet tall and so thick you cant see 40 feet through it.

Id be on bird #2 by the time you got to your dogs first bird. Rinse repeat the entire hour.

Come on out, would be fun in a good way. Standing invitation.
If you dish it out, you better be able to take it. I give as good as I get.

[romeo212000]

Id come on out, bring a dog and listen to you bitch. hahaha

Thats why I said bring video or sign a waiver that vid is fine...your excuses wouldnt work.

I would have fun watching your dog run to the first 'objective' a half mile off, when the cover is 10 feet tall and so thick you cant see 40 feet through it.

Id be on bird #2 by the time you got to your dogs first bird. Rinse repeat the entire hour.

Come on out, would be fun in a good way. Standing invitation.
If you dish it out, you better be able to take it. I give as good as I get.

A) I think you'd be surprised how wrong you'd be. Mine are foot hunting dogs and an intelligent dog will adjust to the situation.

B) it's become apparent that your standard is the only standard huh? You want to bring other dogs to your element, but you wouldn't dare set foot in theirs huh?

C) You keep talking about bringing them to a real hunting situation. What you described sounds nothing like my hunting situations. Try bringing your dog to my sand hills and wide open rag weed flats. I bet you'd be embarrassed for yourself and your dog. But hey, if we hit a deer with the truck you could have your "bird dog" track it.

You really need to stop. You don't realize what an a$$ you're making of yourself.

[ElhewPointer]

Point and back. Wild quail. Both dogs in picture retrieved to hand

Ended up being a hen pheasant.

And all be darned. He won the Arkansas SD Derby too!

Hunted this guy in North Dakota and Texas. Multiple Champion.

[BillThomas]

A) I think you'd be surprised how wrong you'd be. Mine are foot hunting dogs and an intelligent dog will adjust to the situation. .

You have an open invitation. its How MOST of America Hunts on the Most Popular gamebird IN America.
And same conditions. Lots of cover.

) it's become apparent that your standard is the only standard huh? You want to bring other dogs to your element, but you wouldn't dare set foot in theirs huh?

Ive never insisted I own the best dog for Southern Quail, Western Chukar or Prarir birds, I live in OH remember?
Most of the country hunts like I do and the cover I do.

C) You keep talking about bringing them to a real hunting situation. What you described sounds nothing like my hunting situations. Try bringing your dog to my sand hills and wide open rag weed flats. I bet you'd be embarrassed for yourself and your dog. But hey, if we hit a deer with the truck you could have your "bird dog" track it.

If hunting phez, in cover, isnt a real hunting situation on wild and liberated birds and ducks later in the day on the river or the lake, I dont know what is.

You really need to stop. You don't realize what an a$$ you're making of yourself.

Some of your own advice might suit you real well.