Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

[BillThomas]

Hunted this guy in North Dakota and Texas. Multiple Champion.

Nice looking dogs.
Bring the best Bitch of the bunch on out. Youve got an open invite.
I promise I will be cordial.

[ElhewPointer]

My time and money towards my dogs will be spent putting them infront of people who's opinion matters. But thanks for the offer.

[mudhunter]

come run in the Region 9 SD CH in Idaho, its ran on wild birds. In fact Dgfavor took runner up with his GSP, that he hunts like 4 times a week with!

Cripes, I been runner up there 3 times!! Always a bridesmaid!!

1. Doug always post the best pictures.

It's the only way I've figured out to have even a sliver of credibility on the WWW!! In fact today while I was out goofin' I was figuring when I got home I'd submit a picture post for this thread with Ch Bugs and Ch Trixie retrieving huns, chuks, quail, phez and sharps from about 5 different states and pictures of being in the winner's circle in ID, WA, OR, UT, MT, WY, AZ, and KS but instead decided I'd post a couple of the pics my wife snapped today of me workin' on tanning the top of my head!! While you fellars wuz in here hashin' this one out, I was workin' on buildin' up the callus' on my hands workin' the sticks of the drift boat!!









Yup, they fish too...but can't row the boat for squat!!

You guys keep arguing Doug inspired me to go fishing!!!!!

[romeo212000]

A) I think you'd be surprised how wrong you'd be. Mine are foot hunting dogs and an intelligent dog will adjust to the situation. .

You have an open invitation. its How MOST of America Hunts on the Most Popular gamebird IN America.
And same conditions. Lots of cover.

) it's become apparent that your standard is the only standard huh? You want to bring other dogs to your element, but you wouldn't dare set foot in theirs huh?

Ive never insisted I own the best dog for Southern Quail, Western Chukar or Prarir birds, I live in OH remember?
Most of the country hunts like I do and the cover I do.

C) You keep talking about bringing them to a real hunting situation. What you described sounds nothing like my hunting situations. Try bringing your dog to my sand hills and wide open rag weed flats. I et you'd be embarrassed for yourself and your dog. But hey, if we hit a deer with the truck you could have your "bird dog" track it.

If hunting phez, in cover, isnt a real hunting situation on wild and liberated birds and ducks later in the day on the river or the lake, I dont know what is.

You really need to stop. You don't realize what an a$$ you're making of yourself.

Some of your own advice might suit you real well.

A) I didn't say it wasn't a real hunting situation. I said it was the one I hunt in. The point I was getting across is your hunting situation isnt the only kind so quit acting like it. You don't want to go hunt on others home turf because you'd be embarrassed, but you challenge everyone to hunt on yours. Again, you'd embarrass yourself and your dog in my country.

B) I don't hunt on liberated birds. Lol at you thinking there's much difference between liberated birds and tame birds.

C) you assume most of the country hunts like you do shows just how little you know and how narrow minded you are.

[Ron R]

Bill, what college did you play for and what years were your there?

I don't really want to be involved with this conversation but if I just put 2 birds on the card during a NSTRA trial I am mad/not happy/disgusted regardless of who I was braced against.

[slistoe]

We bested the best dog there, outfound him 3 to 2, though bird 3 was a wild flush, out of bounds and not counted.

By anybody's definition of a "find" other than your own.....you didn't "outfound" the other dog.

True.
Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda...
But matching the best and this close to outfinding was personally rewarding for the owner of a pig chasing, ugly dog.

So this dog won the trial?

[slistoe]

[
The TOP lab trialers in the World Retrieving Series (SRS) are majority UKC Hunt Test dogs, Not Trial dogs.
Sort of blows that theory out of the water, huh?

So is this some sort of actually recognized event, or is it a made for TV promotional game to make money for the organizers?

[Elkhunter]

General question to ALL....would it be fair to say that trialers would be happier when there is LESS game on the course??? But, if a dog finds too much game. wouldn't that be evidence of a dogs ability as a game finder??? Maybe the dog wouldn't be able to get rolling..but it surely couldn't be criticized for passing game by.

No, and here is the reason why. In a lot of trials we lack the wild birds to have consistent trials on wild birds solely. So we have to plant birds so that we have bird work, then you bring in lazy bird planters that plant birds in the horse path instead of on the edges or objectives to reward dogs that cast out towards promising areas. Perfect example I ran in a derby about a year and a half ago, my EP went birdless but was on the edges OFF the horse path hitting objectives that he normally finds wild birds on. He was never in the horse path but searching out to likely objectives. Bad thing was there were no birds planted outside the horse path. My brace mate a young brittany had like 6 finds, 50 yards in front of the horse never leaving the horse path. So in reality he found more birds than me, but I would not take that dog over mine any day in the chukar hills. But lets say my dog did have one find on the edge at a likely objective and showed desire and range through out the brace and was hitting the spots he was supposed too, I would expect him to place over the dog that found 5 birds in the horse path. JMO

In a wild bird trial I would obviously want my dog to find as many as possible!

I understand what you are saying but how do you fault a dog that pointed the birds in the horse path if that is where they were. Should it just ignore those, run over them, or what? The dog did exactly what I would want any good dog to do, find the birds, point the birds, and handle them when I get there.

Ezzy

Because there is no objective that should be driving the dog there, we were in a bowl with ridges on both sides and rocks/trees etc that were great objectives that I would want a dog to hit. No real reason to be 50 yards in front quartering in the horse path. Good bird planters should eliminate that problem, there should be very few if any birds planted in the horse path.

[slistoe]

No, and here is the reason why. In a lot of trials we lack the wild birds to have consistent trials on wild birds solely. So we have to plant birds so that we have bird work, then you bring in lazy bird planters that plant birds in the horse path instead of on the edges or objectives to reward dogs that cast out towards promising areas. Perfect example I ran in a derby about a year and a half ago, my EP went birdless but was on the edges OFF the horse path hitting objectives that he normally finds wild birds on. He was never in the horse path but searching out to likely objectives. Bad thing was there were no birds planted outside the horse path. My brace mate a young brittany had like 6 finds, 50 yards in front of the horse never leaving the horse path. So in reality he found more birds than me, but I would not take that dog over mine any day in the chukar hills. But lets say my dog did have one find on the edge at a likely objective and showed desire and range through out the brace and was hitting the spots he was supposed too, I would expect him to place over the dog that found 5 birds in the horse path. JMO

In a wild bird trial I would obviously want my dog to find as many as possible!

I understand what you are saying but how do you fault a dog that pointed the birds in the horse path if that is where they were. Should it just ignore those, run over them, or what? The dog did exactly what I would want any good dog to do, find the birds, point the birds, and handle them when I get there.

Ezzy

Because there is no objective that should be driving the dog there, we were in a bowl with ridges on both sides and rocks/trees etc that were great objectives that I would want a dog to hit. No real reason to be 50 yards in front quartering in the horse path. Good bird planters should eliminate that problem, there should be very few if any birds planted in the horse path.

No dog is faulted for finding a bird, but the circumstances surrounding that find will determine the degree of credit the dog will get for making the find. I would hope that even as hunters we could agree that we do not regard all bird finds as equal.
In planted bird trials sometimes the birds are simply where the dogs find them through no fault of the bird planters - walking on the foot trail, 50 yards off the breakaway for example, but good bird planters who know where birds should be are essential to the making of a good trial and the separation of the good dogs from the winners.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

Just because a bird ends up on or near the horse path doesn't necessaily mean it was planted there.They sometimes fly or move onto it themselves.Star ran an AA stake on chukars,the holding pen was maybe 100 yrds from the breakaway,chukars that had previously been released were calling back to it.We watched birds sometimes 4 or 5 at a time running up & down the paths all day long.Saw a few fly & land in the cover a few ft off the horse path.
When Star's brace broke away I saw a Chukar jump out of the cover & start running down the path Star was on top of it before she even saw it, she tried to stop just as it flushed in her face,you guessed it was
more pressure then she could handle & she leaped in the air for it,luckily she missed.I believe she was a bye dog that day so it was a short AA brace.That's not the first time I've seen it & won't be the last in fact If I remember right I believe Doug mentioned it happening to him at a wild bird trial.

Slistoe I guess we had the same thoughts at the same time.

[birddogger]

These threads are hilarious but I will give Bill or whom ever he is credit, IMO, he has accomplished exactly what he set out to do .

Charlie

[Trekmoor]

I have stayed out of this coz I don't know what you are talking about most of the time .......... I lost track of the thread long ago. The thread seems to be going round in circles and biting it's own backside.

Bill T.

[ezzy333]

Because there is no objective that should be driving the dog there, we were in a bowl with ridges on both sides and rocks/trees etc that were great objectives that I would want a dog to hit. No real reason to be 50 yards in front quartering in the horse path. Good bird planters should eliminate that problem, there should be very few if any birds planted in the horse path.

The problem we have here is those darn birds do not stay where we put them. We try to have cover for them but they get bumped and pushed around from all of the activity and you never know where you will find them. Some are probably native birds since they all like an open place to land in so they can run and hide. And then the dog runs by heading for an objective, smells birds and points. Doesn't even realize those birds are in the horse path and should be ignored. Gotta feel sorry for the dog. I've had it happen several times.

Ezzy

[BigShooter]

These threads are hilarious but I will give Bill or whom ever he is credit, IMO, he has accomplished exactly what he set out to do .

Charlie

Almost but not quite, I didn't get enticed into the fray.

[BillThomas]

So this dog won the trial?

No, I think we played spoiler that day...

[BillThomas]

So is this some sort of actually recognized event, or is it a made for TV promotional game to make money for the organizers?

Not sure.
SRS is known as the top Retriever Test, the most extreme test there is.
Features Quads, Long blinds out to 300-400 meters etc. And its run as a Trial.

Here is video of it..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCGpn820OI0

[BillThomas]

A) I didn't say it wasn't a real hunting situation. I said it was the one I hunt in. The point I was getting across is your hunting situation isnt the only kind so quit acting like it.
.

Its the kind the majority of upland hunters take part in across America, and what I do the most of as well.
We arent after the elusive Dodo bird, but Ringneck pheasant.

You don't want to go hunt on others home turf because you'd be embarrassed, but you challenge everyone to hunt on yours. Again, you'd embarrass yourself and your dog in my country.

Dude, Im running a soon to be 11 yr old dog, near death.
If you cant at least outfind and outpoint me 2 to 1, you should shoot your dog.
If the dog was half this age, Id travel. Ive nothing to prove with her at this point.
If you cant take on a near death, 11 yr old meat dog and outfind me 2 to 1, you dont deserve to call yourself a dog man.
Please take me up on it., Bring your best Bitch and come on out.

B) I don't hunt on liberated birds. Lol at you thinking there's much difference between liberated birds and tame birds.

If your state was wiped out like mine was, you would.
Theres a small wild population but I need and prefer liberated birds to work with. They run plenty, trust me. Before and after being hit.
We could hunt grouse here but I cant guarantee we will see anything, and we could hunt for days and not see anything.
Had sizeable grouse until the 1980s-forests werent cut, turkeys, coyotes, loss of trappers taking nest robbing vermin

C) you assume most of the country hunts like you do shows just how little you know and how narrow minded you are.

Heres a Newsflash for you.
Most upland hunting is for Phez, and the Most Popular gamebird in America IS Phez, and thats what I do, when not hunting ducks, deer, turkey etc.
Phez arent low grass prarie birds, but cover birds.
Ive got cover, 400 acres + 200 acres and lots of cover, with reasonable amounts of birds for you to make your point if you have the desire.
Just PM me. Ill check back here in October after opening grouse season and schedule it with you or other Longtail trialers.
I think my generous offer is more than fair, the point system more than fair, and on neutral grounds Ive hunted on once, 2 counties over from my home, is more than fair.
May the better dog prevail.

[BillThomas]

My time and money towards my dogs will be spent putting them infront of people who's opinion matters. But thanks for the offer.

I said Nice LOOKING dogs, Not nice Hunting dogs.
I wont offer you an opinion until AFTER I see them hunt.

I showed you a very fair point system.
If your passing through my state, in my state, or close to my state, PM me, I will meet you any week day or any weeekend day except Sunday (Our Lords Day) and we can hunt the dogs.
My objective impartial setter buddy can run the video.

Ive got an old, near death 11 year old Meat dog.
If you cant outfind me 2 to 1, your dogs are culls.

[BillThomas]

Bill, what college did you play for and what years were your there?
.

1980s in the Big 10 for IU and then to a MAC school, that ran a West Coast Offense.
2 weeks after I transferred, they brought in an O coordinator to run the I, which is why I left IU.
I wanted and hoped to get a Pro look with the West Coast O.
So I made the best of it, medicated myself alot from the pain, and did alot of blocking.

I don't really want to be involved with this conversation but if I just put 2 birds on the card during a NSTRA trial I am mad/not happy/disgusted regardless of who I was braced against.

I was not real versed in how to beat a good dog, but I think that our strategy worked very well.
I wont give it away for a host of reasons.

But we were 2 vs 2 going down the stretch and my dog was on the way to bird 3, before it flushed wild out of bounds.
I didnt run to win, to compete or prove anything. I ran to have fun and I did. I enjoyed it.
Next time, Ill make sure my dog empties her bowls before running, we lost valuable time.

[ElhewPointer]

Bill, what college did you play for and what years were your there?
.

1980s in the Big 10 for IU and then to a MAC school, that ran a West Coast Offense.
2 weeks after I transferred, they brought in an O coordinator to run the I, which is why I left IU.
I wanted and hoped to get a Pro look with the West Coast O.
So I made the best of it, medicated myself alot from the pain, and did alot of blocking.

I don't really want to be involved with this conversation but if I just put 2 birds on the card during a NSTRA trial I am mad/not happy/disgusted regardless of who I was braced against.

I was not real versed in how to beat a good dog, but I think that our strategy worked very well.
I wont give it away for a host of reasons.

But we were 2 vs 2 going down the stretch and my dog was on the way to bird 3, before it flushed wild out of bounds.
I didnt run to win, to compete or prove anything. I ran to have fun and I did. I enjoyed it.
Next time, Ill make sure my dog empties her bowls before running, we lost valuable time.

We can all see you are still on medication.

[BillThomas]

We can all see you are still on medication.

Yes, the liquid variety.

My near-death meat dog just brought me a fine German Pilsner, she barked when I asked her if she wants to run againt more Longtails. I think thats a yes.

[birddogger]

These threads are hilarious but I will give Bill or whom ever he is credit, IMO, he has accomplished exactly what he set out to do .

Charlie

Almost but not quite, I didn't get enticed into the fray.

OK, you only had a question and I had a comment but he didn't need either one of us.

Charlie

[Yahoo]

If thats not bragging I don't know what is. You're an even bigger blowhard than I thought. .

I didnt think was being a blowhard, if it was true.
Did I mention that I was 3rd on the team in receptions, and have 2 game balls?

Also, you placing so much emphasis on a single insignificant run against a good dog shows just how little you actually know about that venue.
Lots of dogs can go find a couple of birds against a good dog. Plenty of them will never sniff a championship.

I never said we were championship caliber, but that we could run against the best there, make a darn fine showing, and compete for the most finds, with ALOT of good titled and proven dogs.
And we did just that. And I never even read the rule book.

I used to have Two Game Balls.

[slistoe]

So is this some sort of actually recognized event, or is it a made for TV promotional game to make money for the organizers?

Not sure.
SRS is known as the top Retriever Test, the most extreme test there is.
Features Quads, Long blinds out to 300-400 meters etc. And its run as a Trial.

Here is video of it..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCGpn820OI0

I know what the SRS is, just wondering if you did since you want to mention it so many times. But I guess you don't

[SetterNut]

Holly Cow, this is still going on.

A few hundred posts above there was some discussion about "good bird dogs don't track" . While I don't necessarily agree with that there are times where it is not good to have a dog "tracking" a running bird. On wild pheasants in shorter cover (yes they are found in shorter cover, but they are harder for a dog to handle there), you don't want the dog following foot scent. When doing that they more often than not never pin the bird or bump / flush it. My experience is that you are much better off if the dog swings out down wind to locate the bird with body scent carried by the wind. That is what happened here. My pup Indy being backed by my 3 year old Ace.



Which resulted in this.


I am basically a hunter, but I am working to train my dogs to trial levels of bird mannors, because that level of performance in the field is worth the amount of work / training it takes to me.

[BigShooter]

BillThomas, footballer from Ohio with a DD. Birddogz, doctor from Ohio, ND, Nebraska and a bunch of other places with a DD. The rhetoric is the same (in some cases identical). Starting arguments just to enjoy the witty repartee. It's apparent you derive energy from this activity and you've successfully manipulated a bunch of suckers into feeding a troll. Congratulations.

[DGFavor]

You guys keep arguing Doug inspired me to go fishing!!!!!

Sweet!! Inspired myself to go tomorrow as well!!

[BigShooter]

I was goin' fishin' this weekend but another grandson is due any day now. Hate to leave the birddogs home when I'm fishin' but those darn GSPs will retrieve anything thrown in the water, includin' my fishin' sticks. Ol' grandpa lost a good friend that way when the darn dog retrieved one of the sticks of dynamite he was fishin' with.

[brad27]

BillThomas, footballer from Ohio with a DD. Birddogz, doctor from Ohio, ND, Nebraska and a bunch of other places with a DD. The rhetoric is the same (in some cases identical). Starting arguments just to enjoy the witty repartee. It's apparent you derive energy from this activity and you've successfully manipulated a bunch of suckers into feeding a troll. Congratulations.

looks like you got sucked in

[dan v]

You guys keep arguing Doug inspired me to go fishing!!!!!

Sweet!! Inspired myself to go tomorrow as well!!

Now I understand why Bugs and Trixie have more RU's than anything....'Ol Doug lacks focus

[gotpointers]

For clarification sake, I dont like subjective contests.
I prefer watching the Worlds Strongest Man or Powerlifting matches, to watching Bodybuilding contests.
Or Olympic decathalons over bodybuilding shows, with Tangible and objective Rules, as in the fastest, strongest, quickest, highest jumping, running, shotputting, discus throwing, pole vaulting, hurdling contestant wins.

I prefer women's beach volleyball...but again, to each his or her own...

That's entertainment!! Womens rollerderby was also a favorite.

[DGFavor]

Now I understand why Bugs and Trixie have more RU's than anything....'Ol Doug lacks focus

I can't deny that!! I gotta give Trixie her due though - she typically either wins the whole enchilada...or she totally sucks and takes herself out. I did let her down at the Reg. 14 SD Ch last month - I flushed a big 'ol cackling rooster right in her face and over her head, she spun then hopped and we went home!! In my feeble mind I was wading in to roust out a cooperative little sharpie that would leisurely cluck it's way over the horizon and Trixie and I would continue on our path to the top of the podium - freaking ditch parrot didn't have the sense to fly away from danger!!

Sunscreen on, boat hooked up, just got word my fishin' partner has her hair done just right for the day :roll: , and we're outta here!!

[dan v]

just got word my fishin' partner has her hair done just right for the day

So...runnin' a little late then are we?