Another Spin on Backing/Retrieving Preference.

[Stoneface]

Alright, I know I just posted on this not too long ago, but I'm going to throw this out there as another way to ask almost the same question. Assuming a scale from 0% to 100%, with 0% being something like the importance that your birddog knows how to herd cattle and 100% being the importance that your dog point, how important is it to you to have a dog that is a:

1. Natural backer
2. Natural retriever

[ezzy333]

We just discussed this in your last thread. What is your point in asking the same question again?

Ezzy

[Wildweeds]

one that does both naturally would be the one I would choose as potential breeding stock

[slistoe]

Backing and retrieving are near the bottom of the list of things I would care about when selecting breeding stock. I have yet to see a hard core bird dog that didn't want to have a bird in it's mouth. You getting it from the dog is simple obedience and trainability is high on the selection list. Backing - if they are worth keeping they will have a strong enough pointing instinct that even if they come in and point side by each they won't be busting birds.

[slistoe]

We just discussed this in your last thread. What is your point in asking the same question again?

Ezzy

Because if you ask the same thing enough different ways someone will eventually give you the answer you want?

[ultracarry]

We just discussed this in your last thread. What is your point in asking the same question again?

Ezzy

Because if you ask the same thing enough different ways someone will eventually give you the answer you want?

X2


I don't care if the dog backs as long as they are to the front and ahead of the other dog. A good dog knows how to avoid the pointing dog at all cost

[Ms. Cage]

A good dog knows how to avoid the pointing dog at all cost

Does that include blinking?

[campgsp]

Because asking the same thing enough different ways someone will eventually give you the answer you want?[/quote]

But there is no right or wrong answer.

in my opinion every breeding should be bred for these qualities. Just like a pointer is bred to point
It saddens me to see a dog need ff just to retrieve. Ff should just be a method for bettering a retrieve.
I think people use ff so much that natural retrieve in a breeding isn't as important as it was 20 + years ago.
People want different qualities it just depends on the person. But if you could have them all wouldn't that be better. That's a different topic though.
That's. Just what I think. But like I said there isn't a right or wrong answer.

[Ricky Ticky Shorthairs]

I think it's pretty funny how you guys get all worked up when Rowdy posts that you don't agree with.

Always seems to be the same people too. You got a man crush on him Tyler?

[ultracarry]

Not yet.... I'm more into the male stripper type (chaning tatum) But it sounds like your jealous anyway. But I swear I'm not picking on your man

Blinking is acceptable if they hide it.

[Ricky Ticky Shorthairs]

That's about what I expected.

[Nick Miles]

Blinking is acceptable if they hide it.

[SetterNut]

I hunt with multiple dogs down and with a fair number of other hunters, so backing is more important in my case than retrieving. But I want them both.

[ezzy333]

A word to the wise. Stay on topic.

Ezzy

[jimbo&rooster]

Im about 30% or less on a NATURAL back. I feel like by their 2nd or 3rd season if they dont figure it out I can point them in the right direction. I would say a natural retrieve is about 90%. For a natural retrieve I dont expect finished work, but I want a dog to go out and pick up a shot bird and at least show some desire to bring it back (or for a young dog, pick it up and run around with it in his mouth).

I will put most of my dogs through FF just because I have the time and I can, but I don't want to have to, and would never consider a dog for breeding that HAD to be FFd.

Jim

[birddog1968]

Because asking the same thing enough different ways someone will eventually give you the answer you want?

But there is no right or wrong answer.

in my opinion every breeding should be bred for these qualities. Just like a pointer is bred to point
It saddens me to see a dog need ff just to retrieve. Ff should just be a method for bettering a retrieve.
I think people use ff so much that natural retrieve in a breeding isn't as important as it was 20 + years ago.
People want different qualities it just depends on the person. But if you could have them all wouldn't that be better. That's a different topic though.
That's. Just what I think. But like I said there isn't a right or wrong answer.[/quote]


Then how to my HB AA field trial bred dogs retrieve naturally, they have NEVER been bred with retrieving in mind........ and they get FF'd when its time too......

I want a Smart Biddable dog with a lot of go with you. I can develop the rest.

[ezzy333]

Because asking the same thing enough different ways someone will eventually give you the answer you want?

Then how to my HB AA field trial bred dogs retrieve naturally, they have NEVER been bred with retrieving in mind........ and they get FF'd when its time too......

I want a Smart Biddable dog with a lot of go with you. I can develop the rest.

I don't think there is a bird dog alive who's ancestors were not bred to retrieve. In the past bird dogs found the birds, either flushed them or pointed in some manner, and retrieved the birds to the hunter. In more recent times we have become one dimensional in our breeding, and our dogs are starting to run on empty in some categories, but the instinct is still there in most. Just takes more effort to bring it out in many.

Ezzy

[mountaindogs]

importance is a bit relative to your goals.
For breeding... natural ability should be a significant factor. For hunting, the job needs to get done. Bird found, and back to bag, not lost. Birds not bumped up or crowded by an over competative dog. Most of us WANT natural. Training is time and money. The more natural a dog is, the better.

I would rank natural retrieving very high. A dog that required FF to retrieve to a servicable hunting level would be undesirable to me. Training a retrieve to fine tune details, and/or to fix man made problems is not the same and expected for high level work.
Backing is more complicated to rate. Some dogs with natural tendancy to point another pointing dog do occur in little puppies, but MOST "natural backing" dogs -- I think -- just quickly learn that another dog pointing ALSO means birds are present, and they have enough natural point to stop at a reasonable distance from the other dog. Distance from other dog is increased with training. Some dogs will not honor but come into the same scent cone and point on scent "level with another dog" not truly pushing in, but still making their own point regardless of another dog. A natural puppy backig would be ideal but I would imagine rare. The second situation would be fine and dandy with me and is what I want to see for breeding goals. The dog learns to stop from excitment and natural point at the KNOWLEDGE of birds, not just from my teaching a whoa command at the sight of another dog. I might need to train a faster sooner stop for perfection but the dogs should naturally stop or slow WAY DOWN outside of the scent cone, on sight of the other dog.
Training a dog to back is not a rule out for breeding for me, but it would be a "needs improvement" area.
That's my current opinion, subject to change.

[birddog1968]

more recent for AA dogs is the last 100 years.

[campgsp]

more recent for AA dogs is the last 100 years.

Ezzy said it all. The instincts are there but not as strong as they used to be. A dog is going to retrieve its in there nature. But a dog that will naturally retrieve anything you tell him to without the use of ff that is truely natural. Do you get where I'm going with this?
When I was younger I had dogs that would retrieve a car tire if I asked them to. Today I have to use ff to get a dog to pick up a bird. Really they are bird dogs. Why am I teaching a dog how to pick a bird up? Ff should only be an reinforcement not a teaching. Our breedings running empty quoting ezzy again. Its true. There are traits that need more improvement then others. But either way I love my dogs. There family but they BETTER retrieve my birds.

[campgsp]

By the way I'm not saying anyone's dogs are not natural I just have my own opinion on what natural is to me. And I didn't mean to hijack the thread I just wanted to put my points out there to be better understood.
Its all fun guys.

[JKP]

According to the experts, there is no such thing as "natural retrieve". Went on for 35 pages....

http://www.versatiledogs.com/forum/view ... =5&t=14676

[Stoneface]

Im about 30% or less on a NATURAL back. I feel like by their 2nd or 3rd season if they dont figure it out I can point them in the right direction. I would say a natural retrieve is about 90%. For a natural retrieve I dont expect finished work, but I want a dog to go out and pick up a shot bird and at least show some desire to bring it back (or for a young dog, pick it up and run around with it in his mouth).

I will put most of my dogs through FF just because I have the time and I can, but I don't want to have to, and would never consider a dog for breeding that HAD to be FFd.

Jim

Jimbo, thanks to you and the other folks who made an effort to answer the question.

The reason I re-asked the question is because because I was trying to get an idea of the common opinion of HOW important the traits were, not if they were important or not. It was more in that lack of emphasis in the original question. I really want to know HOW important it is to most people so I added a scale in this thread to get a clearer idea.

[Ms. Cage]

Blinking is acceptable if they hide it.

You say a good dog will avoid another dog at all cost.

When you Test (MH) do you suck your dog in and stay up it's back side to get the dog to back? I like a dog with lots of natural back. Less chance of a dog blowing a back. looks awesome when a dog sticks a honor 50 - 100 yds away and the handler is way off his dog. Natural retrieve is a must, ff is for polish.

[Chukar12]

It sort of came to me in watching puppies interactions, that most pups that want to point have a lot more natural back in them than those who dont have so much...I mean for instance almost every english pointer pup I see snaps on point right out the chute and some continentals are a little slower...these pups are about 13 weeks in a picture taken yesterday and I suppose they will back pretty well their whole training unless something or somebody leads them astray.