Big Brittany?

dougroch · Post by **dougroch** » Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:00 pm

Just a curiosity question. What is the biggest size you have ever seen in a HEALTHY brittany? My 14 month old male britt is 55 lbs and still has his back ribs visible. Definitely out of AKC regs (and I dont care). Biggest britt I have seen other than him was at least 15lbs lighter.

Wildweeds · Post by **Wildweeds** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:19 am

Never seen one much over 40,think english setter of the orange and white variety for genetic code.

Brazosvalleyvizslas · Post by **Brazosvalleyvizslas** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:27 am

How tall is it at the withers?

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:19 am

Big Britts are still a problem because we have breeders who breed to big dogs. We went through a stage some years back where there was a group that thought you had to have a bigger dog to win the field trials and they run a lot of big dogs. These still showup years later. It is quite disheartning to a new owner buying a pup with the idea of finishing a dual champion to have their pup go oversize. But some people just can't grasp what the outcome is when they breed to oversized dogs and they have some pups that stay within the standard ontil history points them out.

Ezzy

dougroch · Post by **dougroch** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:38 am

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:How tall is it at the withers?

about 23 inches

Karen · Post by **Karen** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:16 am

Is he neutered, and if so, when was he neutered.

I have one that is probalby 24" at the withers, but I neutered him at 16 weeks old, and relate his size to early neuter. His parents were both within the standard.

Luisia02 · Post by **Luisia02** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:35 am

My males are between 40-45lbs but are lean and in shape. My girls which are only 23-26lbs. All of my dogs are with in standard.

Saddle · Post by **Saddle** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:48 am

When I ran britts years ago all of mine were 55-60 lbs. All age britts and all age dogs for that matter are bigger. Bigger dogs handle the pounding of being on the circuit better. Its a fact in spite what some here would have you believe. Is a bigger dog better? Who knows overall but for handling the grind of running the major circuit yes they hold up better. Judges want to see a bigger dog too. I had a frozen semen son of a dog named Therapy two tears ago. He would carry the mail as a derby. Took him to an all age derby stake and he tore it up. Afterwards judge to me he was a super young dog but just too small to be an age dog. I sold him right after that.

I love big old long legged deep chested britts. They'll out run a short squatty one everytime.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:02 am

Saddle, I hope you are not correct !

My first brit was an American type and was over the size limit a little bit but she could really run. I've just bought a French field trial bred Brittany that will be of the "squat" type.( the breed purists prefer to call them cobby) I don't really expect her to run as fast or as far as the more "settery" type I once had but I certainly hope she does. Time will tell.

Bill T.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:05 am

Saddle wrote:When I ran britts years ago all of mine were 55-60 lbs. All age britts and all age dogs for that matter are bigger. Bigger dogs handle the pounding of being on the circuit better. Its a fact in spite what some here would have you believe. Is a bigger dog better? Who knows overall but for handling the grind of running the major circuit yes they hold up better. Judges want to see a bigger dog too. I had a frozen semen son of a dog named Therapy two tears ago. He would carry the mail as a derby. Took him to an all age derby stake and he tore it up. Afterwards judge to me he was a super young dog but just too small to be an age dog. I sold him right after that.

I love big old long legged deep chested britts. They'll out run a short squatty one everytime.

Here is the perfect example of why we have oversized Britts. So many put their own satisfaction ahead of the breed, in other words anything is alright if it wins. Lance Armstrong is our latest example though we are still fighting it in most sports including our dog sports. I have had big and little with little difference in performance. Big dogs may be a little stronger for the short time but the small ones will last longer is what I have found. But regardless which way you want to lean, there is no excuse for ignoring the stanard. If the Britt isn't big enough for you then get a setter. They are wonderful dogs too.

One of the things I have always found amusing as well as frustrating are the people who make the claim of the advantage of how they have had to work for everything they have but are going to make sure their kids don't have to. I think that is the same mind set of the people who love the Britt or any other breed and then trying to change them. Just doesn't make much sense to me.

Ezzy

Saddle · Post by **Saddle** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:10 am

Bill I'm sure you'll have a lot of success with your dog. I hope I didn't offend or discourage anybody by what I said that was just my observation of going to trials. Those all age dogs are big and strong and theyre that way for a reason. I'm sure you'll enjoy success in whatever venue you decide to go to.

I have a nice young all age dog here now and a nice broke shooting dog female here also. Saddle is my all age dog that's where my screen name comes from. He's right at 63 pounds right now in fighting weight and that's roading him 30 miles a week. My female is at 45 pounds is considerably smaller than him. When I run them together she appears to be so much faster than him but she couldn't catch him if she wanted to. Now I'm talking pointers here of course. Their gait is so much different its night and day. He appears to be in slow motion when he's running. I will check the Garmin when we're done and she is running an average of 9 miles per hour and he's running an average of 13 and a half miles per hour on the same piece of ground. That Garmin has been the biggest eye opener for me when it comes to the size of the dog and how fast it can move across the ground.

jetjockey · Post by **jetjockey** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:14 am

Saddle wrote: I love big old long legged deep chested britts. They'll out run a short squatty one everytime.

Wanna bet!

Saddle · Post by **Saddle** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:20 am

I'm not a brit guy anymore ezzy that was just my experience of dealing with them when I had them. I'm sure you have fine britt's you probably didn't notice a performance difference in them because you didn't go to many major circuit all age trials. Small dogs do not out last big dog that's a myth. Bigger dogs are harder to keep in shape that is the truth I think.

If bigger dogs really can't hack it as far as conditioning goes how do you explain the national championship at Ames for these dogs run 3 hours and will cover miles and miles of ground in doing so and usually tough conditions. I've seen big dogs run by small ones first hand and the small dogs cannot keep up no matter what they do. I'm not saying overall bigger is better but for field trialing it is.

Saddle · Post by **Saddle** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:27 am

I don't have any money Jet I'm poor. One of the finest Brits I ever saw a run was Jim de Bob's Spark's A Dan D and was no 30 pounder! He was a beast. I saw that dog make some casts that made me and everyone else there wonder if we were going to see him again.

jetjockey · Post by **jetjockey** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:29 am

As for the size of Brits. I just hope they don't turn out like other hunting breeds who have put size and stature more important than hunting ability, and thus bred the hunt right out of them. I'm pretty sure 100+ years ago when they bred setters to pointers and then crossed them with spaniels, they didn't care how they would look in a show ring. I don't care about size, or necessarily winning trials. I think we should be breeding the best hunting dogs we can. Puttin them in a "box" as to how big they can be and how tall they are, and making that more important than how the dog hunts, will eventually kill the breed. That's where the Pointer guys get it right. They breed for the best field prospects they can.

BTW. Big Brits have always been around, and always will be. In the late 70's and early 80's my family was bred a few litters of Brits here and there. We would always get one or two big Brits in the 50-55lb range, even though the sires and dames were always 35-45lbs. And we didn't care, because my dad bred for field dogs, not dogs who look good prancing around unnaturally in a show ring.

Saddle · Post by **Saddle** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:32 am

jetjockey wrote:As for the size of Brits. I just hope they don't turn out like other hunting breeds who have put size and stature more important than hunting ability, and thus bred the hunt right out of them. I'm pretty sure 100+ years ago when they bred setters to pointers and then crossed them with spaniels, they didn't care how they would look in a show ring. I don't care about size, or necessarily winning trials. I think we should be breeding the best hunting dogs we can. Puttin them in a "box" as to how big they can be and how tall they are, and making that more important than how the dog hunts, will eventually kill the breed. That's where the Pointer guys get it right. They breed for the best field prospects they can.

BTW. Big Brits have always been around, and always will be. In the late 70's and early 80's my family was bred a few litters of Brits here and there. We would always get one or two big Brits in the 50-55lb range, even though the sires and dames were always 35-45lbs. And we didn't care, because my dad bred for field dogs, not dogs who look good prancing around unnaturally in a show ring.

Very good post.

Moulders Farm · Post by **Moulders Farm** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:47 am

several years ago before I went to lewellins . I had a line of big brits out of K.C bandant then I bought a french brit & I would not have traded my big male for all the franch or small one you could put in a truck for wild bird hunting on conv. hunting grounds or ruff land you can see them so much better plus they will go throug high grass & ruff ground so much easyer . He jumped over things the franch could not go through . he was close to my lewellins hight. but was no good on pin raised birds only wild Quail, pheasants & wood cock

Moulders Farm · Post by **Moulders Farm** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:49 am

several years ago before I went to lewellins . I had a line of big brits out of K.C bandant then I bought a french brit & I would not have traded my big male for all the franch or small one you could put in a truck for wild bird hunting on conv. hunting grounds or ruff land you can see them so much better plus they will go throug high grass & ruff ground so much easyer . He jumped over things the franch could not go through . he was close to my lewellins hight. but was no good on pin raised birds only wild Quail, pheasants & wood cock

deseeker · Post by **deseeker** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:05 pm

jetjockey wrote:
Saddle wrote: I love big old long legged deep chested britts. They'll out run a short squatty one everytime.
Wanna bet!

Big britts do not always out run in-size britts---Jerry McGee's Chug dog has won the Purina dog of the year 3 times and he is a DC. His sire, Bourbon XIII, run by Al Gorrow also won Purina Dog of the year and he is a DC. Tekela Joker (Tillson), Hall of Fame dog was a DC. This hasn't been that long ago. Anymore it is about 50% on big dog /little dog winning. I'm sure back in the old days it used to be mainly big dogs.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:41 pm

deseeker wrote:
jetjockey wrote:
Saddle wrote: I love big old long legged deep chested britts. They'll out run a short squatty one everytime.
Wanna bet!
Big britts do not always out run in-size britts---Jerry McGee's Chug dog has won the Purina dog of the year 3 times and he is a DC. His sire, Bourbon XIII, run by Al Gorrow also won Purina Dog of the year and he is a DC. Tekela Joker (Tillson), Hall of Fame dog was a DC. This hasn't been that long ago. Anymore it is about 50% on big dog /little dog winning. I'm sure back in the old days it used to be mainly big dogs.

You are right on, but most found out it just doesn't work that way. You see many more Britts that meet the standard winning than you do the big oversize dogs in recent years. But we still suffer from the big dogs being used in a breeding program but it is getting better.

Ezzy

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:03 pm

I tend to think there is ....or should be....a sensible middle ground to breeding for size, large or small and also for "shape."

Although I now have a French type brit I prefer the shape of some of the settery looking U.S. types. To my eyes the settery shape should be a better shape for running. Mother nature thought so anyway as I can't think of any really cobby wolves, coyotes or African Hunting dogs. I think what happened to the brit was a case of over exaggeration by the French when they decided they liked the brits they bred that had a fairly cobby look. People have always had a tendency towards exaggerating what is considered good .... take a look at the present day British Bulldog ! :roll:

I don't like too much of a cobby shape in brits, I want a hunting dog not a mini-rottweiller.

On the other hand there isn't much sense in having the brit held up to hunters as the worlds smallest pointing breed if we deliberately breed them to be as large as setters. If we stick somewhere in the middle ground we should be O.K.

Bill T.

Saddle · Post by **Saddle** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:22 pm

Just a quick check but from 1988 to 2008 there only been 3 dual champions that have won the National Open all age brittany championship. Where I looked it only went up to 2008.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:35 pm

I dunno why I would enter this argument...it's against my better judgement.
Last years winner Bammer...in standard
2011 ... Artie over sized
2010 .... chug...DC
2009 ... cash in standard
2008 .... jacs a hammerin dandy....I wouldn't swear to but I think he is in size

Just because they aren't a DC doesn't mean that you can read the data to mean that the dog is out of standard

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:42 pm

Chukar12 wrote:I dunno why I would enter this argument...it's against my better judgement.
Last years winner Bammer...in standard
2011 ... Artie over sized
2010 .... chug...DC
2009 ... cash in standard
2008 .... jacs a hammerin dandy....I wouldn't swear to but I think he is in size

Just because they aren't a DC doesn't mean that you can read the data to mean that the dog is out of standard

BTW congratulations to you on your Western AA win in Sonoita. Sorry I missed it this year but my wife was ill. BTW I think Dan is in standard.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:44 pm

Thank you...that was Patch...he is only 19 months old and in standard.

Saddle · Post by **Saddle** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:47 pm

You're right about the DC not meaning they are in standard.

My only premise here is that small dogs by in large cannot and do not consistently outrun big dogs. Are there exceptions? Sure there are but if this were the case the major circuit guys would be running small dogs (I'm talking in the pointer world now) and they don't.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:53 pm

A long dog with long legs and a floating gait will generally look more impressive than short quick and snappy in an all age race...if all other things are equal ... (and that's a mouth full ) I believe the bigger dog gets the nod

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:56 pm

Chukar12 wrote:Thank you...that was Patch...he is only 19 months old and in standard.

LOL

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:44 pm

Chukar12 wrote:A long dog with long legs and a floating gait will generally look more impressive than short quick and snappy in an all age race...if all other things are equal ... (and that's a mouth full ) I believe the bigger dog gets the nod

Happy Birthday!! Couple of more years and you will mature!

I don't think I will accept that aa dogs win because they can outrun the competion. Way more than run,or at least I hope so. We went through the run era 30 and 40 years ago.

Ezzy

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:50 pm

I wouldnt bet on the maturity thing....
...and a win coming down to run is closer to the exception than the rule...hence my all things being equal comment, but on the right day the are nearly unbeatable britts out of standard...I been watching

Brazosvalleyvizslas · Post by **Brazosvalleyvizslas** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:57 pm

Those DC's winning those stakes would interest me more for breeding stock than something bread out of standard just for trials. It takes a good breeding program and a huge commitment from the owners to get it done in both venues.

Maurice · Post by **Maurice** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:17 pm

I love working the young dogs out of Piney Run Art aka Artie. I own 1 myself and have worked with a few more.. All have been real strong bird dogs with power and endurance.. I like the bigger brits, just what I personally like and glad we have a choice.

Mo

Saddle · Post by **Saddle** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:31 pm

Sorry to inform you Ezzy but if an all age dog doens't qualify on the ground first and foremost then everything else he does or doesn't do in the brace is irrelevant.

We never left the "run era".

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:32 pm

Saddle wrote:You're right about the DC not meaning they are in standard.

My only premise here is that small dogs by in large cannot and do not consistently outrun big dogs. Are there exceptions? Sure there are but if this were the case the major circuit guys would be running small dogs (I'm talking in the pointer world now) and they don't.

Even in pointers, few of the very large (for their standard) dogs win.

But in case you didn't read this thread it is about Brittanys, not pointers.

Neil

Saddle · Post by **Saddle** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:00 pm

Thanks Neil. I was just making a comparison. Pointers don't have a standard that field trialers are concerned with.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:56 pm

Saddle wrote:Thanks Neil. I was just making a comparison. Pointers don't have a standard that field trialers are concerned with.

True, but my point was the overly large pointers (in relation to others within the breed) rarely win at the highest levels. There seems to be a optimum size in each breed. And with the Britts I will concede it is slightly larger than the standard allows, but the point others are making is that the standard should be followed, and I agree.

Neil

Saddle · Post by **Saddle** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:01 pm

I'm glad pointers don't have a breed standard.

Brazosvalleyvizslas · Post by **Brazosvalleyvizslas** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:30 pm

Pointers have had a breed standard since Nov of 1975. It is detailed in it's description and addresses size and faults just like the Britts does.

KwikIrish · Post by **KwikIrish** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:41 pm

Every breed has a breed standard, it's up to each breeder to abide by it... Or disregard it completely.

But if someone wants a dog that is big like a pointer and runs like a pointer, get a pointer.
Why ruin another breed's standard and integrity to make it into everything it in not meant to be?

Every breed is designed to look and perform a certain way, is it not? Why would I buy a spinone Italiano if I wanted a breed which preformed like a shorthair? I wish people would stick to the breed which matched the look and style of performance they desired.

deseeker · Post by **deseeker** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:44 pm

Saddle wrote:I'm glad pointers don't have a breed standard.

Pointers have a breed standard---they have to have a straight 12 o'clock tail in order to be put up in AF---at least that is what all the trialers are always lookin' for

Only kiddin'

Saddle · Post by **Saddle** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:42 pm

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:Pointers have had a breed standard since Nov of 1975. It is detailed in it's description and addresses size and faults just like the Britts does.

American field pointers DO NOT adhere to the AKC breed standard.

Saddle · Post by **Saddle** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:43 pm

deseeker wrote:
Saddle wrote:I'm glad pointers don't have a breed standard.
Pointers have a breed standard---they have to have a straight 12 o'clock tail in order to be put up in AF---at least that is what all the trialers are always lookin' for Only kiddin'

There is way more truth to that than you realize.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:44 pm

The first field trial in the US also held a bench show. Many of the early National Champions took a train to NYC to compete in the Westminster show. The logo of the AKC is a pointer. Most of the top pointers meet the AKC standard, not that they would likely win a show, they are too small.

We have a history that is worth learning.

Neil

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:56 pm

Saddle wrote:
Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:Pointers have had a breed standard since Nov of 1975. It is detailed in it's description and addresses size and faults just like the Britts does.

American field pointers DO NOT adhere to the AKC breed standard.

Thank goodness!

Saddle · Post by **Saddle** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:20 pm

Just because you meet a standard Neil doesn't mean you follow it. Ill play along Neil for a minute. Name me 5 top all age field trialers that breed dogs with the AKC standard in mind.

Its ok ill wait.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:28 pm

Saddle wrote:Just because you meet a standard Neil doesn't mean you follow it. Ill play along Neil for a minute. Name me 5 top all age field trialers that breed dogs with the AKC standard in mind.

Its ok ill wait.

Most, they just don't know it or care.

You really ought to read the standard, I doubt you will find it objectionable.

Saddle · Post by **Saddle** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:34 pm

Just some fyi Neil. The first recorded trial in America was held in 1874 in Memphis. It was an American Field event. Westminster didn't form until 1877. Your time frame is a little off. So much for them hopping the train after the first to head to the dog show. Its irrelevant anyways. This is about britts.

I'm still waiting on those 5.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:27 pm

You need to work on your reading skills, I know the hisrory fairly well, I did not say it was an AKC show, but it was a bench show, My point was there were dual bred pointers from the begining.

The time frame for the NC going to Westminster was the teens through the 20's & 30's,. In 1917 Mary Montrose won the NC and took top bitch at NYC.

But to the OP, while your dog is large he is not that rare. I hope he makes a good dog for you and you enjoy him.

rkappes · Post by **rkappes** » Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:40 am

KwikIrish wrote:Every breed has a breed standard, it's up to each breeder to abide by it... Or disregard it completely.

But if someone wants a dog that is big like a pointer and runs like a pointer, get a pointer.
Why ruin another breed's standard and integrity to make it into everything it in not meant to be?

Every breed is designed to look and perform a certain way, is it not? Why would I buy a spinone Italiano if I wanted a breed which preformed like a shorthair? I wish people would stick to the breed which matched the look and style of performance they desired.

Nice post Kwik

rkappes · Post by **rkappes** » Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:49 am

Maurice wrote:I love working the young dogs out of Piney Run Art aka Artie. I own 1 myself and have worked with a few more.. All have been real strong bird dogs with power and endurance.. I like the bigger brits, just what I personally like and glad we have a choice.

Mo

Artie looks huge in photos especially standing next to other britts...is he really that big in person? In photos he looks like a monster. Good lookin' dog though....wouldn't mind owning a pup out of him. I like the looks of all the Piney Run dogs. I really like that Piney Run Lily.