Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

[RayGubernat]

I can't really comment on callbacks and retrieving in the AKC/AF/USA Pointing/Continental field trials, but regarding many of the postings on the current topic, I would pose a question to the statement below (and others like it):

RayG =

Bird dogs have never lost their "natural ability" to retrieve, despite a hundred years of not having it "tested". That is a certifiable, undeniable FACT.

If this is true, why then, are there an inordinately high number of posts in the Training section having to do with Retrieving (specifically the lack thereof)??

I was not aware that there was an "inoridinately high number" of posts dealing with retrieving.

However, to be honest I do not usually even look at or much less respond to those. I figure there are several accomplished retriever persons on this list and they are far better able to help someone with retrieving questions. If the retriever folks need any additional assistance, there are plenty of versatile folks also right here, ready to help. If i do read threads on retrieving training or force fetching, it is usually to try and learn something from someone who does a whole lot more of it than I do.

RayG

[UpNorthHuntin]

American Field has coverdog field trials listed under the calendar tab. Check out The Michigan Amatuer Field Trial Club's website for a list of the trials in MI:

http://coverdog.blogspot.com/

I've never been to Iona or Highland, but have been to Gladwin and will hopefully be there at least once this spring for a trial.

I don't know the cover dog clubs in Michigan, but in WI and Minnesota the clubs that hold cover dog trials are Chippeway Valley Grouse Dog Association, Moose River Grouse Dog Club and Minnesota Grouse Dog Association.

I live about 90 minutes from both of the grounds, pretty nice. All though I've never been there for a trial, I have been to the both State Game Rec Areas for other sports events. Both very nice. From what I hear from the local Brittany Club, they put on pretty nice events. Thanks for the info, Mybe I'll see you there this spring or even up in Gladwin (also noy far).

[fuzznut]

Why don't we all head over to the Versatile Dog forum, or the DD forum, or the DK forum and start to raise silly and inane questions about the purpose and usefullness of their tests? Then all that have never run in one of those tests can tell them how it should be done and why the "royalty" of the Vdogs is so full of hot air.

Heck, someone just asked a question on the VDog forum about a hardness test... you woulda thought they asked if dating their own sister was ok. The screen of secrecy was dropped immediately .. don't ask those questions on a public forum the OP was told. Ask your breeder. Really?????

Amazing!!!!! And a true reflection on today's society! Those who cant love to talk about and poo poo those who can and do!

[slistoe]

If this is true, why then, are there an inordinately high number of posts in the Training section having to do with Retrieving (specifically the lack thereof)??

I was not aware that there was an "inordinately high number" of posts dealing with retrieving.

I am still waiting for him to respond with some sort of numbers or other criteria to back up this ludicrous claim. Seems like folks around here feel they can spout off anything they want to make up to try and make themselves feel better about their "belief".

[cjhills]

It has been a long winter.
Set up retrieves are pretty much a waste of time in field trials and prove nothing. Scoring a setup retrieve in a Hunt test from 0 to 10 is even sillier. CJ

[Neil]

Thought I would share. I was showing off a young Boykin to Hall of Famers Buddy Smith, Joe Walker and few of our friends. He was doing tripple marks, double blinds, taking whistle and hand signals, doing a very nice job. I must have pushed my chest out a bit too far, causing Buddy to quip, "Neil, Bub, they will all retrieve, some just won't come".

Buddy and I disagreed on the importance of hunting dead, I train for it, Buddy believes it part of the search desire and they learn it during relocation drills. That you take the drive to find live birds and contain it to a small area.

Now back when Buddy was NBHA Handler of the Year multilpe times the dogs had to retrieve on course, I trust he knew what it took to win.

[JKP]

Why don't we all head over to the Versatile Dog forum, or the DD forum, or the DK forum and start to raise silly and inane questions about the purpose and usefullness of their tests?

Who said that FT is useless?? I accept that there are some very fine dogs...heck we have VC Pointers and Setters. I just think retrieving should be more important....you should do it..something meaningful..instead of just lip service. Y'all have a problem with that, tough bananas. All I hear is a lot of excuses why there shouldn't be a meaningful evaluation of retrieving/search dead ability...and if anyone was honest, they'd admit it. I would think anyone that had a dog that had super retrieve/search dead abilities would be flaunting it. I should think any big stakes winner that was a retrieving machine would be the preferred stud dog...assuming that hunting is the real goal here.

You know...you get a bit tired of the "everything is perfect in FT land" dogma..."some are champions and all the rest are just terrific hunting dogs"...."don't need to X-ray because no dog that isn't structurally sound can win"...and...wait for it...saving the best for last...don't need to breed for retrieve because desire, run, point and style...equate into strong retrieving..... because don't you know, 95% of the birds you can pick up yourself anyway. Is this starting to sound a little like PR to anyone?? In the meantime after 110 years of breeding dogs that MUST retrieve, that can be barred from breeding for mishandling a bird, I still see dogs that don't in my own breed and many others....still see dogs that bite birds...have to forced to water to retrieve. But miracles of miracles, the longtails don't have these problems because they don't prioritize retrieve. Who'd have thunk it?? Excuse me if I'm skeptical but I've tried to train a few Pointers and Setters...actually hunted over a few that wouldn't pick up a bird or would run on the shot to find the next one. I spent a week in Hornpayne, Canada searching up the birds in heavy cover that my colleagues dog wouldn't retrieve (from FT stock). We don't hunt together anymore. You guys just gonna continue riding horses, sending out the spotter and hoping you don't have to call for the GPS...or are you gonna add some value to the package and set an example of what good hunting dogs do after the shot. How much better do you think these dogs can be? How much farther, faster, can they run...tails can't be any straighter and unless you breed them with longer necks, the crank won't improve.

So circle the wagons and blast away. I'm not against FT...y'all have some terrific dogs....but I think you guys should demand more...and nothing could be more valuable than a dog that is as talented after the shot. You expect more...eventually you get more.

[Chukar12]

those are training issues ...period and some breeds and lines are better for folks that haven't the time or inclination to train

or the ability ..left that out

[Neil]

.JKP,

Every dog I have ever owned retrieved.

But I don''t recall a single person asking before using them as stud or buying a pup. And rarely when buying a started or even finished dog.

Kinda like asking if they can walk.

[slistoe]

In the meantime after 110 years of breeding dogs that MUST retrieve, that can be barred from breeding for mishandling a bird, I still see dogs that don't in my own breed and many others....still see dogs that bite birds...have to forced to water to retrieve.

No one ever said that there weren't dogs of the specialist variety that don't have problems with the retrieve. But what you have illustrated is that in 110 years your "system" has not been able to breed the problem dogs out. Requiring the retrieve component has been no more effective in ensuring you will get a dog that will properly handle shot bird than the system that does not require the retrieve.

heck we have VC Pointers and Setters.

What are you ranting about?

[rschmeider]

I would think a Natural Retrieving Dog would be more intense after the shoot ..I seen some FF dogs drop tail after the shot/cap.

I rather see a dog on edge spin and mark with intensity for the retrieve...Than one that looks the other direction Limp hoping to get released for another find.

[RayGubernat]

Why don't we all head over to the Versatile Dog forum, or the DD forum, or the DK forum and start to raise silly and inane questions about the purpose and usefullness of their tests?

So circle the wagons and blast away. I'm not against FT...y'all have some terrific dogs....but I think you guys should demand more...and nothing could be more valuable than a dog that is as talented after the shot. You expect more...eventually you get more.

JKP -

That is just it. WE DO ask for more out of our dogs. All the time. The best of the best get better, each year, but it is a slow process because, as you say, there ain't so much room at the top for improvement.

However, every year the AVERAGE dog in AF field trials gets fancier and fancier, classier and classier on the ground and more and more stylish on point. They do all that while being more and more biddable and trainable and maintaining their aggressive ground applications. That is because the unrelenting pressure of competition raises the bar...for all participants. dogs get better, trainers get better, techniques and tools get better....

That means(to me) the progeny of these dogs will show steady improvement in things like trainability, class and style with no loss of innate range, pattern, or...Barrump Bump...retrieving ability. So the hunters should not be in any way short changed, but rather given choices that will please them even more.

Improving some of the performance aspects without losing ground on the rest. Sounds to me like a recipe for continued success.

Maybe...just maybe the folks who set up AF trials so very long ago hit upon a pretty good formula for insuring that our bird dogs continue to change, improve and evolve to meet the current needs of ALL their sportsman owners.

RayG

[Neil]

I am often asked if I thnk the great doogs of yesteryear would win today. I believe they would, I don't think the top dogs of today are all that much better, there are just more of them, many more. And as Ray says the average and bottom have been raised considerably. I have seen trials with 60 entries and the worest dog I saw that finished was pretty good. Good enough to have placed or even won 40 years ago.

I say the breeding programs are working just fine.

[Redneck]

I agree with most of what Ray and Neil have said except 1 caveat - I don't feel that the dogs run as big as they used too. I believe this is for several reasons. 1) we get more and more limited as to the size and availability of both training and trailing grounds so dogs HAVE to handle better. 2) Today we have better technology for both training and tracking which also lends to better handling and dogs getting away with less. Both these things also lead to the hunter being able to buy a more suitable "field trial wash out" for their purposes.

[Wenaha]

American Field sanctions retrieving stakes every time a GSP, Vizsla or Weim trial is dualsanctioned by AKC and AF, and that happens all the time...

Karen - I believe that these 'dual sanctioned' stakes are run under the AKC rules.

AF trials are run under the rules of the AFTCA. Live ammunition is strictly forbidden... from the AFTCA rule book:

Ammunition

Section 15. The use of open barrel .410 gauge shotguns using 1⁄2 load specified safety blank ammunition in lieu of solid barrel blank pistols at AFTCA sanctioned trials is permitted. At the discretion of land owners and hosts pistols may be required.
a. Only specified safety blanks used in re-enactment events and endorsed by AFTCA governance may be used. (1/2 load Grey) safety blanks emit no solid material from the barrel. Judges may ask for verification of such prior to breakaway.
b. Shotguns (.410 ga) must be fired in a prescribed manner, i.e., skyward and away from the direction of the gallery and judges, or the dog and handler may be disqualified from the stake at the discretion of the judges.
c. The barrel of the shotgun should never be used for flushing by the handler, thus minimizing - - 20 - -
any foreign materials from entering the open barrel. The gun should be held in a skyward position and never pointed toward the gallery or judges. Failure to comply could result in a dog or handler being disqualified in that stake.
d. Proven, intentional use of live ammunition will result in immediate barring of the handler from any further competition until the case has been reviewed and decided by the Board of Trustees of the AFTCA.
e. Clubs at their discretion may provide specified safety blank ammunition to be used. The source for approved safety blanks ammunition shall be posed on the AFTCA website.

[Neil]

I agree with most of what Ray and Neil have said except 1 caveat - I don't feel that the dogs run as big as they used too. I believe this is for several reasons. 1) we get more and more limited as to the size and availability of both training and trailing grounds so dogs HAVE to handle better. 2) Today we have better technology for both training and tracking which also lends to better handling and dogs getting away with less. Both these things also lead to the hunter being able to buy a more suitable "field trial wash out" for their purposes.

I have not seen any limitations on grounds up North, out West, or in the Mid-South, not even the Southeast. And they no longer hold All-Age in the Northeast.

But I do agree most handle better these days, however the ones that don't handle don't win, and that has always been a fact. What made the great ones of the past great was they finished.

[northern cajun]

I never understood the "a retrieve just needs FF training, so it doesn't matter" perspective. Being steady to wing and shot is also all training. If the dog's ability to be trained and to cooperate is unimportant, why bother with broke dog stakes at all.

That said, nearly every trial I've ever been to has at least 50% of the stakes as popgun only, with 99% of the retrieving stakes being callback. There's plenty of opportunity to run a dog without having to retrieve.

As far as I'm concerned, I'd rather see the retrieve made more difficult. Callbacks make it way too easy.

I agree completely.

[Tejas]

American Field sanctions retrieving stakes every time a GSP, Vizsla or Weim trial is dualsanctioned by AKC and AF, and that happens all the time...

Karen - I believe that these 'dual sanctioned' stakes are run under the AKC rules.

AF trials are run under the rules of the AFTCA. Live ammunition is strictly forbidden... from the AFTCA rule book:

Ammunition

Section 15. The use of open barrel .410 gauge shotguns using 1⁄2 load specified safety blank ammunition in lieu of solid barrel blank pistols at AFTCA sanctioned trials is permitted. At the discretion of land owners and hosts pistols may be required.
a. Only specified safety blanks used in re-enactment events and endorsed by AFTCA governance may be used. (1/2 load Grey) safety blanks emit no solid material from the barrel. Judges may ask for verification of such prior to breakaway.
b. Shotguns (.410 ga) must be fired in a prescribed manner, i.e., skyward and away from the direction of the gallery and judges, or the dog and handler may be disqualified from the stake at the discretion of the judges.
c. The barrel of the shotgun should never be used for flushing by the handler, thus minimizing - - 20 - -
any foreign materials from entering the open barrel. The gun should be held in a skyward position and never pointed toward the gallery or judges. Failure to comply could result in a dog or handler being disqualified in that stake.
d. Proven, intentional use of live ammunition will result in immediate barring of the handler from any further competition until the case has been reviewed and decided by the Board of Trustees of the AFTCA.
e. Clubs at their discretion may provide specified safety blank ammunition to be used. The source for approved safety blanks ammunition shall be posed on the AFTCA website.

There are a couple of trials (same location) that have become dual AKC sanctioned in the past year and one half, but were previously only American Field/AFTCA sanctioned that had callbacks. I know because my dog failed to retrieve and lost the championship. I was there in prior years when it was done as well.