Vet Today
- Double Shot Banks
- Rank: 2X Champion
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Vet Today
Just took banks in to get neutered. He ways 58 lbs at 10 months.
Update: He is now retrieving comfortably triple marks, and retrieving a dead (but thawed) pigeon.
As soon as he's healed up we will start working with live birds and the gun.
Just an update, since i have not been very active recently.
Isaac and Banks
Update: He is now retrieving comfortably triple marks, and retrieving a dead (but thawed) pigeon.
As soon as he's healed up we will start working with live birds and the gun.
Just an update, since i have not been very active recently.
Isaac and Banks
Re: Vet Today
What were your reasons for having him castrated ?
.
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Re: Vet Today
Just don't answer the self proclaimed "Doc" kid...
Whatever you, your family and your vet decide will work out just fine. As you gain wisdom through the years, remember what it is like to be young and earning the rights, privileges and responsibility to your own accountability. With that perspective, you may be wildly effective in helping shape the world by influencing people in a manner that actually makes a difference.
Without that perspective you may be relegated to know it all status, perhaps sitting at the end of the bar stretching theories and science to their breaking point like the love child of my mother-in-law and Clifford C. Clavin.
Whatever you, your family and your vet decide will work out just fine. As you gain wisdom through the years, remember what it is like to be young and earning the rights, privileges and responsibility to your own accountability. With that perspective, you may be wildly effective in helping shape the world by influencing people in a manner that actually makes a difference.
Without that perspective you may be relegated to know it all status, perhaps sitting at the end of the bar stretching theories and science to their breaking point like the love child of my mother-in-law and Clifford C. Clavin.
- Double Shot Banks
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Re: Vet Today
the same as everyone else, i figured being neutered was so common you might know why.Doc E wrote:What were your reasons for having him castrated ?
.
But, i am getting him castrated because i do not want to breed him at any point, and i don't want an "accident" happening in the field trying to hunt.
Also id like to cut down on his spraying (which he hasn't started yet)
Re: Vet Today
I don't think anyone was trying to be a smart aleck, it's your dog and you can what you please with him. But there are folks with experience and depth of knowlege on here that understand that neutering a puppy like yours can have serious consequences later in life, that's all.
Speedy recovery to your pup.
Speedy recovery to your pup.
Re: Vet Today
Yeh -- He certainly wouldn't want to read scientific evidence concerning spay/neuter would he (OR YOU :roll: )Chukar12 wrote:Just don't answer the self proclaimed "Doc" kid...
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Re: Vet Today
1. Wrong again -- Certainly not the same as "Everyone" else. Many of us know better than castration at 10 months of age.Double Shot Banks wrote:1. the same as everyone else,Doc E wrote:What were your reasons for having him castrated ?
.
2. i figured being neutered was so common you might know why.
3. But, i am getting him castrated because i do not want to breed him at any point, and i don't want an "accident" happening in the field trying to hunt.
4. Also id like to cut down on his spraying (which he hasn't started yet)
2. Most all of us know when it's proper to do so --- and when it's not
3. & 4. Good reasons, but definitely the wrong age to get it done.
I have made a few posts regarding spay/neuter -- you should have done a "search" first.
But if the "snipping" has already been done -- it's too late to change anything now --- you can't reattatch them.
.
Re: Vet Today
Well Doc (giggle,giggle,chuckle,chuckle,guffaw,guffaw),
He probably should be aware, as should I of the scientific evidence...and in this case so should his parents, and his scientific vet, and anybody else not on an Internet chat site capable of drawing social security willing to publicly embarrass themselves by having an on going diatribe with a 15 year old.
However, as you stated the nuts are gone, and short of a private message to the lad engaging him in a conversation regarding your concerns, and helping if you can ... And if you can't ...simply butting out of what the kid and his family do with their property.... especially since there was no question or desire for opinion expressed in the post, you are just being boorish at best and probably rude in most circles.
Whatever keeps your mind sharp Einstein....
He probably should be aware, as should I of the scientific evidence...and in this case so should his parents, and his scientific vet, and anybody else not on an Internet chat site capable of drawing social security willing to publicly embarrass themselves by having an on going diatribe with a 15 year old.
However, as you stated the nuts are gone, and short of a private message to the lad engaging him in a conversation regarding your concerns, and helping if you can ... And if you can't ...simply butting out of what the kid and his family do with their property.... especially since there was no question or desire for opinion expressed in the post, you are just being boorish at best and probably rude in most circles.
Whatever keeps your mind sharp Einstein....
- Double Shot Banks
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Re: Vet Today
I think you will all understand this..
Although i respect all of your opinions i do not know any of you or who you are, so you cant blame me for going with the advice my vet, and family said and have done in the past.
I'm not saying your wrong, but i have not reason to believe your right or wrong either way.
My dad in the past has never had problems with castrating his dogs at this age, and would not advise or let me do something to harm the dog.
Isaac and Banks
Although i respect all of your opinions i do not know any of you or who you are, so you cant blame me for going with the advice my vet, and family said and have done in the past.
I'm not saying your wrong, but i have not reason to believe your right or wrong either way.
My dad in the past has never had problems with castrating his dogs at this age, and would not advise or let me do something to harm the dog.
Isaac and Banks
Re: Vet Today
1. We certainly wouldn't want a 15 year old (and his dad) to be aware of the very latest in scientific research now, would we :roll:Chukar12 wrote: 1. He probably should be aware, as should I of the scientific evidence...and in this case so should his parents, and his scientific vet, and anybody else not on an Internet chat site capable of drawing social security willing to publicly embarrass themselves by having an on going diatribe with a 15 year old.
2. However, as you stated the nuts are gone,
3. Whatever keeps your mind sharp Einstein....
2. Correct -- they can't be re-attached
3. Keeping up with the very latest scientific research (by folks MUCH more educated than his Vet) is what keeps my mind sharp.
The most recent article i've read is from a Peer Reviewed Scientific Journal dated 5/233/2013 -- How about you
Dull mind regards,
.
Last edited by Doc E on Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Vet Today
I really like the numbering system you employ and the emoticons...they strike at the heart of clarity.
Re: Vet Today
They certainly didn't help you in answering my questions -- did they ?Chukar12 wrote:I really like the numbering system you employ and the emoticons...they strike at the heart of clarity.
In case you couldn't figure it all by yourself, #1 and #3 were questions -- just for you.
.
Re: Vet Today
No I couldn't tell they were questions, they could have been but lacking the proper punctuation I hated to assume. I know with all the prescriptions you must fill out with your impressive credentials formalities do get lost. Please forgive me. However, even if they were phrased as such; they do not warrant an answer. My opinion regarding the original posters comments is mitigated by the fact that the deed is done and he is 15. If I expressed anything to him about my opinion or knowledge I would do it in a way that was appropriate. You do not have that ability or desire.
- kninebirddog
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Re: Vet Today
Double Shot Banks wrote:I think you will all understand this..
Although i respect all of your opinions i do not know any of you or who you are, so you cant blame me for going with the advice my vet, and family said and have done in the past.
I'm not saying your wrong, but i have not reason to believe your right or wrong either way.
My dad in the past has never had problems with castrating his dogs at this age, and would not advise or let me do something to harm the dog.
Isaac and Banks
Double shot...Sad part is many vets are in this alter dogs giving the same key card response on how it prevents certain things and many do not keep up with newer research specially when it come to active hunting agility type dogs as many of the dogs a vet sees on a daily basis are spoiled couch potatoes that get to go on 5 minute mindless make the owner feel good walks.
As stated the deed is done. Just know that he may get elongated femur bones as the testosterone that would tell his body to stop growing won't be there which this can potentially lead to joint damage and issues in his future along with some other things including incontinence.
here is a link to one of many researches which again most vets do not deal with a lot of hunting trialed and truly active dogs so these reports do not go noticed by them http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5 ... s_2013.pdf
Re: Vet Today
I had a spaniel puppy that I did not sell because only one testical had desended. At six months I decided it was never going to drop so I had him neutered at a vet college in Texas. I trained him, ran him in trials (never told anyone) and gave him to my Sister and family as a hunting dog/pet. The only physical differnce I saw was he grew a little taller than his brothers. The amazing thing I noticed was his retention of training was amazing. I saw him a couple times a year and he was always honest, even though my nephew and niece did all they could to untrain him. He was a great dog all of his 15 years.
Re: Vet Today
I want to e clear here...I am not arguing my opinion on whether or not we should spay or neuter and when...I have an opinion on that, it didn't seem appropriate here.
Re: Vet Today
why does he need to know? I can't believe the utter rudeness of Doc in most of his post over the past few months to a young man that is asking questions about his dog. And we don't need others adding to it. the time to talk was before and not afterwards. And when we do talk there is no reason for anyone to listen. I know it would hurt some feelings if they couldn't hear themselves expound on the many subjects that come up and telling themselves they are doing it for the poster.kninebirddog wrote:Double Shot Banks wrote:I think you will all understand this..
Although i respect all of your opinions i do not know any of you or who you are, so you cant blame me for going with the advice my vet, and family said and have done in the past.
I'm not saying your wrong, but i have not reason to believe your right or wrong either way.
My dad in the past has never had problems with castrating his dogs at this age, and would not advise or let me do something to harm the dog.
Isaac and Banks
Double shot...Sad part is many vets are in this alter dogs giving the same key card response on how it prevents certain things and many do not keep up with newer research specially when it come to active hunting agility type dogs as many of the dogs a vet sees on a daily basis are spoiled couch potatoes that get to go on 5 minute mindless make the owner feel good walks.
As stated the deed is done. Just know that he may get elongated femur bones as the testosterone that would tell his body to stop growing won't be there which this can potentially lead to joint damage and issues in his future along with some other things including incontinence.
here is a link to one of many researches which again most vets do not deal with a lot of hunting trialed and truly active dogs so these reports do not go noticed by them http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5 ... s_2013.pdf
Ezzy
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Re: Vet Today
Only dogs that lose their nuts or uterus at my outfit are the ones I've carefully evaluated,that evaluation is not complete until they are adults,2 years plus,unless there is a genetic defect that exposes itself earlier.I nutted one and gave it away because of cryptochrid,gave every opportunity for the droppage that never happend,at 20 months it was lopped off and I gave away a AF AA CH sired pup for FREE!
Re: Vet Today
Same here, wrong place and wrong time.Chukar12 wrote:I want to e clear here...I am not arguing my opinion on whether or not we should spay or neuter and when...I have an opinion on that, it didn't seem appropriate here.
Ezzy
- Double Shot Banks
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Re: Vet Today
Thnks for the info, i definetly did not know that, but theres nothing i can do now but let the dog grow.kninebirddog wrote:Double Shot Banks wrote:I think you will all understand this..
Although i respect all of your opinions i do not know any of you or who you are, so you cant blame me for going with the advice my vet, and family said and have done in the past.
I'm not saying your wrong, but i have not reason to believe your right or wrong either way.
My dad in the past has never had problems with castrating his dogs at this age, and would not advise or let me do something to harm the dog.
Isaac and Banks
Double shot...Sad part is many vets are in this alter dogs giving the same key card response on how it prevents certain things and many do not keep up with newer research specially when it come to active hunting agility type dogs as many of the dogs a vet sees on a daily basis are spoiled couch potatoes that get to go on 5 minute mindless make the owner feel good walks.
As stated the deed is done. Just know that he may get elongated femur bones as the testosterone that would tell his body to stop growing won't be there which this can potentially lead to joint damage and issues in his future along with some other things including incontinence.
here is a link to one of many researches which again most vets do not deal with a lot of hunting trialed and truly active dogs so these reports do not go noticed by them http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5 ... s_2013.pdf
You have to understand, this dog is not going to be some hunt test champion with a thousand and a half titles and symbols before his name..
He is just a boys dog, hunting dog, companion. I definetly dont want anything bad to happen to him, at all. and if something really bad happens you can say "i told you so"
Isaac and Banks
- kninebirddog
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Re: Vet Today
I understand ....hopefully he will be a super hunting dog and the surgery doesn't effect him...Just be alert you have this little extra knowledge now so that IF anything does start you can do somethings that will help
Like regular quality food not high power foods as to not promote growth.
If you ever see anything that looks like he may not be moving right ..add glucosamine to his daily diet..this will help get that extra lubrication to his joints
Should he have incontinence problems you can get proin this will help to stop it...
These are some things you can watch out for
there are a couple vets here that try to help
Doc E and Dog Dr both have helped a lot and just have an active hunting dogs welfare at heart and yes though you are not trialing again you are hunting which is active and that is far more then the average pooch get, So it isn't about an I told you so
Good Luck look forward to more posts from you
Like regular quality food not high power foods as to not promote growth.
If you ever see anything that looks like he may not be moving right ..add glucosamine to his daily diet..this will help get that extra lubrication to his joints
Should he have incontinence problems you can get proin this will help to stop it...
These are some things you can watch out for
there are a couple vets here that try to help
Doc E and Dog Dr both have helped a lot and just have an active hunting dogs welfare at heart and yes though you are not trialing again you are hunting which is active and that is far more then the average pooch get, So it isn't about an I told you so
Good Luck look forward to more posts from you
Re: Vet Today
The problem with all of the research is that their are not enough dogs in the groups. I would be more inclined to listen to my vet who has forty years in the business and has records to prove what diseases she treats the most often. I lean toward later on males but have seen hundreds neutered at six months with no issues. I have seen one that grew taller than normal presumably from early neutering but we don't know. there is no credible evidence of increased dysplasia or acl tears. if you have two hundred dogs in each group and four get dysplasia in one group and two in the other that is 100% increase. but it is still insignificant. Cj
- Double Shot Banks
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Re: Vet Today
He is eating 30/20 protein fat right now, about 5 cups a day. we were feeding 4 cups but he does not look fat at all, even a little on the slim side so we increased it. what problems exactly does this cause? we are getting his hips,elbows and eyes checked once he is 2 years old,
Re: Vet Today
For Banks, this is all a mute point really. If the pup were mine, I would keep him thin and athletic. This will help to keep his hips and elbows in check. That is assuming he has good hips in his lineage.
Isaac, Enjoy your pup. Run him, hunt him keep him in good body condition. I really dont know that a dog his age and size need 5 cups. Becareful not to over feed. I like to be abe to easily feel hips and ribs, but not really see them.
Isaac, Enjoy your pup. Run him, hunt him keep him in good body condition. I really dont know that a dog his age and size need 5 cups. Becareful not to over feed. I like to be abe to easily feel hips and ribs, but not really see them.
Re: Vet Today
Oooops on you.cjhills wrote:. there is no credible evidence of increased dysplasia or acl tears.
Cj
Click here and read the entire article to see where your above statement is incorrect.
This Peer Reviewed Research Article was published about 3 weeks ago.
http://news.vin.com/VINNews.aspx?articleId=27205
.
Last edited by Doc E on Thu Jun 13, 2013 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vet Today
Youve neutered him,don't bother testing for any of that stuff,it's worthless information,That information at this point "Is what it is"
Double Shot Banks wrote:He is eating 30/20 protein fat right now, about 5 cups a day. we were feeding 4 cups but he does not look fat at all, even a little on the slim side so we increased it. what problems exactly does this cause? we are getting his hips,elbows and eyes checked once he is 2 years old,
Re: Vet Today
Again, I ask -- Why (if you're not going to be able to breed him) ?Double Shot Banks wrote: we are getting his hips,elbows and eyes checked once he is 2 years old,
Hips and Elbows can't be OFA certified until 24 months.
"Eye stuff" (CERF and PRA) can be checked anytime.
OFA Hips and Elbows, CERF, CNM, EIC and PRA are tests to see what the odds are of passing on genetic defects to offspring and if any special precautions need to be taken with females the dog may be bred to.
Since he is "clipped' none of this matters............
Last edited by Doc E on Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:38 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Vet Today
Wildweeds wrote:Youve neutered him,don't bother testing for any of that stuff,it's worthless information,That information at this point "Is what it is"
Double Shot Banks wrote:He is eating 30/20 protein fat right now, about 5 cups a day. we were feeding 4 cups but he does not look fat at all, even a little on the slim side so we increased it. what problems exactly does this cause? we are getting his hips,elbows and eyes checked once he is 2 years old,
Agreed save your money, enjoy your dog and just let him tell you over time when he is ready to retire.
- ACooper
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Re: Vet Today
There interactions between Doc E and Issac have to be some of the more uncomfortable I have seen.
I assume you know his vet?Doc E wrote:[
3. Keeping up with the very latest scientific research (by folks MUCH more educated than his Vet) is what keeps my mind sharp.
- Brazosvalleyvizslas
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Re: Vet Today
How do dogs produce testosterone and at what age? Its not really a difficult question..
Re: Vet Today
The UCDavis report is a joke. In the females their are significantly higher numbers tested in early neutered females. plus the number of dogs having the diseases was so low in most cases it was insignificant a bit over 700 dogs were tracked divided into four groups all goldens nothing was tracked about the dogs conditioning. Males neutered after a year did the best in almost every health category. I will still go by what my vet sees everyday. There as not been big enough numbers and very many factors have not been considered.Doc E wrote:Oooops on you.cjhills wrote:. there is no credible evidence of increased dysplasia or acl tears.
Cj
Click here and read the entire article to see where your above statement is incorrect.
This Peer Reviewed Research Article was published about 3 weeks ago.
http://news.vin.com/VINNews.aspx?articleId=27205
.
I haven't had time to read the other one yet but my bet would be more biased baloney. Not for or against but Also not ready to buy into a obviously slanted report. Haven't seen any evidence either way every body has their agenda. CJ
- Double Shot Banks
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Re: Vet Today
Right now you can see his ribs just barely, more so when he turns. and to me he looks perfect maybe a little slim but he is getting lots of exercise, if you would like I can post a picture.
He will get his hips and elbows checked because i care and i would like to know if he will be hunting most of his life or only half.
He has a few dogs in his pedigree that have been certified hips, eyes, elbows but not all.
If it is something i should really be concerned i could lower his food when he reaches the peak of growth, keep in mind he hasn't grown very much the past few months, definitely not gotten taller, maybe he has just filled out a little. To us it looked like he wast going to get much bigger, and the size he is at is perfect in my book
Isaac and Banks
He will get his hips and elbows checked because i care and i would like to know if he will be hunting most of his life or only half.
He has a few dogs in his pedigree that have been certified hips, eyes, elbows but not all.
If it is something i should really be concerned i could lower his food when he reaches the peak of growth, keep in mind he hasn't grown very much the past few months, definitely not gotten taller, maybe he has just filled out a little. To us it looked like he wast going to get much bigger, and the size he is at is perfect in my book
Isaac and Banks
- Brazosvalleyvizslas
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Re: Vet Today
The UCDavis report is a joke. In the females their are significantly higher numbers tested in early neutered females. plus the number of dogs having the diseases was so low in most cases it was insignificant a bit over 700 dogs were tracked divided into four groups all goldens nothing was tracked about the dogs conditioning. Males neutered after a year did the best in almost every health category. I will still go by what my vet sees everyday. There as not been big enough numbers and very many factors have not been considered.cjhills wrote:Doc E wrote:Oooops on you.cjhills wrote:. there is no credible evidence of increased dysplasia or acl tears.
Cj
Click here and read the entire article to see where your above statement is incorrect.
This Peer Reviewed Research Article was published about 3 weeks ago.
http://news.vin.com/VINNews.aspx?articleId=27205
.
What is a "neutered female"???
Re: Vet Today
Isaac
don't fuss about this stuff...it is not important now...really Turn your computer off and train your dog as planned. If I don't miss my mark he will be better than most.
don't fuss about this stuff...it is not important now...really Turn your computer off and train your dog as planned. If I don't miss my mark he will be better than most.
Re: Vet Today
What does this have to do with this topic?Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:How do dogs produce testosterone and at what age? Its not really a difficult question..
Ezzy
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Re: Vet Today
Neutered is the correct term for an "altered" dog. Both males and females are neutered - we just choose to use the word spayed for females...don't know why. Neutering in it's true definition is the removal of all or part of sexual organs.
- Brazosvalleyvizslas
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Re: Vet Today
ezzy333 wrote:What does this have to do with this topic?Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:How do dogs produce testosterone and at what age? Its not really a difficult question..
Ezzy
You really dont know the answer? It has everything to do with the topic. Please look at when dogs produce their needed testosterone and get back to us.
- mountaindogs
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Re: Vet Today
Double shot banks,
Have you ever considered becoming a talk show host? You seem to me able to make the most ordinary statements and controversy errupts. :roll:
Keep on keeping on and have fun with your dog. That IS the reason most of us have dogs to begin with, though its easy to forget if spend too much time here...
Have you ever considered becoming a talk show host? You seem to me able to make the most ordinary statements and controversy errupts. :roll:
Keep on keeping on and have fun with your dog. That IS the reason most of us have dogs to begin with, though its easy to forget if spend too much time here...
Re: Vet Today
We have a post from a young man telling us that he had Banks neutered at the vet's and immediately a few people decided it was the time to tell him he shouldn't do it. Maybe good advice but in my way of thinking ill timed since we know of no way to undo what has been done.Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:ezzy333 wrote:What does this have to do with this topic?Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:How do dogs produce testosterone and at what age? Its not really a difficult question..
Ezzy
You really dont know the answer? It has everything to do with the topic. Please look at when dogs produce their needed testosterone and get back to us.
Now you ask a question about how and when does a dog produce testosterone. So again I will ask what does this have to do with a pup that is neutered? And who did you address the question to? Will the correct answer change anything that will benefit Issac or Banks?
I sure hope it does but ....................
Ezzy
Re: Vet Today
Good for you on the dog, do as you wish he is yours and yours alone.
I got a shorthair here is over 12 now was cut at like 6 months. Please dont tell him he was done wrong, my brother made the decison is it his dog.
Some people seem to belive they have all the answers. Ha ha, I'm still learning..... the dog will do fine, keep up the good work.
I got a shorthair here is over 12 now was cut at like 6 months. Please dont tell him he was done wrong, my brother made the decison is it his dog.
Some people seem to belive they have all the answers. Ha ha, I'm still learning..... the dog will do fine, keep up the good work.
- kninebirddog
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Re: Vet Today
ezzy333 wrote:
What does this have to do with this topic?
Ezzy
You really dont know the answer? It has everything to do with the topic. Please look at when dogs produce their needed testosterone and get back to us.
http://www.lab-retriever.net/board/fire ... euter.htmlezzy333 wrote: We have a post from a young man telling us that he had Banks neutered at the vet's and immediately a few people decided it was the time to tell him he shouldn't do it. Maybe good advice but in my way of thinking ill timed since we know of no way to undo what has been done.
Now you ask a question about how and when does a dog produce testosterone. So again I will ask what does this have to do with a pup that is neutered? And who did you address the question to? Will the correct answer change anything that will benefit Issac or Banks?
I sure hope it does but ....................
Ezzy
and in case you want to question UC Davis http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/index.cfmJoint disorders and cancers are of particular interest because neutering removes the male dog’s testes and the female’s ovaries, interrupting production of certain hormones that play key roles in important body processes such as closure of bone growth plates, and regulation of the estrous cycle in female dogs.
- Brazosvalleyvizslas
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Re: Vet Today
What does this have to do with this topic?
Ezzy[/quote]
You really dont know the answer? It has everything to do with the topic. Please look at when dogs produce their needed testosterone and get back to us.[/quote]
We have a post from a young man telling us that he had Banks neutered at the vet's and immediately a few people decided it was the time to tell him he shouldn't do it. Maybe good advice but in my way of thinking ill timed since we know of no way to undo what has been done.
Now you ask a question about how and when does a dog produce testosterone. So again I will ask what does this have to do with a pup that is neutered? And who did you address the question to? Will the correct answer change anything that will benefit Issac or Banks?
I sure hope it does but ....................
Ezzy[/quote]
I asked a simple question on a forum( discussion) hoping that the OP might do some research and learn something....Why do you get offended by that? Your post does nothing for the OP where as mine was directly to him and was meant to invoke thought......
Ezzy[/quote]
You really dont know the answer? It has everything to do with the topic. Please look at when dogs produce their needed testosterone and get back to us.[/quote]
We have a post from a young man telling us that he had Banks neutered at the vet's and immediately a few people decided it was the time to tell him he shouldn't do it. Maybe good advice but in my way of thinking ill timed since we know of no way to undo what has been done.
Now you ask a question about how and when does a dog produce testosterone. So again I will ask what does this have to do with a pup that is neutered? And who did you address the question to? Will the correct answer change anything that will benefit Issac or Banks?
I sure hope it does but ....................
Ezzy[/quote]
I asked a simple question on a forum( discussion) hoping that the OP might do some research and learn something....Why do you get offended by that? Your post does nothing for the OP where as mine was directly to him and was meant to invoke thought......