Belly collar

[ruffbritt4]

Can anybody share their experiences using a belly collar, How to put it on dog, any bad outcomes from it, and how it worked for steadying their dog? I also heard a guy said you can use it when dog creeps on point because its not associating the stimulation with the bird? Thanks for any help.

[ultracarry]

Do you have a pro available to help you learn how to steady your dog?

[Sharon]

Ray posted an excellent post on "steadying your dog" that I saved. It's not about using a belly collar but It should help you do the job. I'll PM it to you.

[ruffbritt4]

Ray posted an excellent post on "steadying your dog" that I saved. It's not about using a belly collar but It should help you do the job. I'll PM it to you.

Thank you, i got it.

[ruffbritt4]

Is this how you guys do it? http://www.youtube.com/user/TheGundogtrainer/videos

[kninebirddog]

I use the Rick and Ronnie Smith Method of teaching a point of contact via a post and a check cord then over laying the e collar it seems like a bunch of steps but for the dogs I have worked over the years they have been very worth while steps and I like the results I get. FWISW

[DonF]

Does not appear to me that that is the first time for that dog. I don't use the collar at all. I use the original Delmar Smith method, been working for me a long time and don't see a reason to change it.

[RayGubernat]

Ruff -

I was only just recently exposed to correct use of the flank collar. Yes there is a right way, and probably a bunch of not so right ways. Apparently the pro I contracted to steady my most recent dog has been using this technique on their dogs for some time now. I would say their experience with this technique has been quite positive.

I know the dog I gave them is soft of temperament, smart as a whip and more than just a little willful. I was having trouble getting her to stand her birds without diving in, with my usual methods. I just got her back from the trainer's and she is standing her birds nicely and seems to have retained all her style. I would have kept her with the trainer to be run in several of the early derby trials, but she came into heat.

RayG

[ruffbritt4]

Ruff -

I was only just recently exposed to correct use of the flank collar. Yes there is a right way, and probably a bunch of not so right ways. Apparently the pro I contracted to steady my most recent dog has been using this technique on their dogs for some time now. I would say their experience with this technique has been quite positive.

I know the dog I gave them is soft of temperament, smart as a whip and more than just a little willful. I was having trouble getting her to stand her birds without diving in, with my usual methods. I just got her back from the trainer's and she is standing her birds nicely and seems to have retained all her style. I would have kept her with the trainer to be run in several of the early derby trials, but she came into heat.

RayG

Could you describe a little about how he did the belly collar training with her? thanks for all the help

[Sharon]

He can't do that; he's not very good at explaining. ( You know I'm kidding.)
When is that book going to get written Ray?

[RayGubernat]

He can't do that; he's not very good at explaining. ( You know I'm kidding.)
When is that book going to get written Ray?

Thank you for the kind words.

But I have to plead ignorance on this one.

I have almost no experience working with a dog wearing a flank collar, and some of what I though I knew...well...let's just say I was not entirely correct in my understanding. I am on the learning curve myself and plan to follow through with the trainer's work on this youngster. Then, when I see how it goes with this dog, I will be in a bit better shape to pass along what I have learned.


I have no problem saying what I did, and how it worked out, good or bad, but in this case, at this time, I would rather defer to someone with more experience in the proper application of the technique.

RayG

[ruffbritt4]

He can't do that; he's not very good at explaining. ( You know I'm kidding.)
When is that book going to get written Ray?

Thank you for the kind words.

But I have to plead ignorance on this one.

I have almost no experience working with a dog wearing a flank collar, and some of what I though I knew...well...let's just say I was not entirely correct in my understanding. I am on the learning curve myself and plan to follow through with the trainer's work on this youngster. Then, when I see how it goes with this dog, I will be in a bit better shape to pass along what I have learned.


I have no problem saying what I did, and how it worked out, good or bad, but in this case, at this time, I would rather defer to someone with more experience in the proper application of the technique.

RayG

I understand. Would it be a good investment in a remote launcher instead of doing the belly collar? I just don't know enough about the belly collar,

[Rod W]

Rick and Ronnie Smith's, DVD's do an excellent job of explaining the the collar on the flank---then buy the electronic launchers!

[Sharon]

x2
Kninebirdog PM
She's very knowledgeable about establishing a point of contact

http://huntsmith.com/article.php?id=15

http://huntsmith.com/article.php?id=16

[ruffbritt4]

We have done woah with a half hitch on his waist, do you then make the transition with the ecollar?

[SanerSoft]

The belly collar is stiming the dog when they don't whoa/stop on command. If a dog is fully collar conditioned and generalized to the whoa command (understands that stimulation to the neck is coming from YOU, not the bird), why do you need to use a belly collar? Isn't a belly collar just a short cut used before whoa training is "finished" that assures the dog does not associate the stim with the bird.

[ruffbritt4]

The belly collar is stiming the dog when they don't whoa/stop on command. If a dog is fully collar conditioned and generalized to the whoa command (understands that stimulation to the neck is coming from YOU, not the bird), why do you need to use a belly collar? Isn't a belly collar just a short cut used before whoa training is "finished" that assures the dog does not associate the stim with the bird.

Woah training is even close to being finished, but he knows what it means, until a bird is in front of him. My dog holds point till I go in to flush, then he runs in with me, that is the habit I want to break. He will hold for ever until I start walking in. Also I want to use the belly collar so there is no negative association with the bird.

[DonF]

I've never even tried the flank collar method but how ever good it might me, it must be hard to learn. I see this come up a lot, people either having trouble with it or saying it simply is not working. I've never used anything but Delmars original whoa post method and it's never failed me. One guy PM'ed me on another site and had some question, I don't recall what it was. But in the exchange whoa breaking came up and he said he'd given up on it, it doesn't work. Come to find out he was using the flank collar. he'd never heard or seen the original method so we went over it. he got it and his dog whoa's now.

The only change I made to Delmar's method is the introduction of the e-collar. it goes around the neck, is worn from the beginning and once whoa is learned, the dog is introduced to the collar while still on the check cord.

Remote launcher's are no substitute for learning the whoa command. Get them for that and you are just kidding yourself. You can walk all around the small problem but until you quit thinking, your not gonna get it. Your making an ordeal out of this. The idea is to simply teach the dog to stop and stand still. That's all. Have nothing to do with birds, nothing! Just stop and stand still. Perfect training video train's it from the heel position, it works. I had to get my head around that and finally compared it to teaching sit in obedience. Same exact thing but rather than having the dog sit on the sit command, you have it simply stop and stand still with a whoa command. All you are doing with either the whoa post or the heeling method is teaching the dog to stop and stand still. Get all that other cr*p out of your mind!

[Neil]

The belly collar is stiming the dog when they don't whoa/stop on command. If a dog is fully collar conditioned and generalized to the whoa command (understands that stimulation to the neck is coming from YOU, not the bird), why do you need to use a belly collar? Isn't a belly collar just a short cut used before whoa training is "finished" that assures the dog does not associate the stim with the bird.

As I tried to explain on another thread, the e-collar is for go and turn, the gas pedal and steering wheel. On the flank is for stop, the brakes. An e-collar controller is not a joy stick with unlimited application. The dog can only be corrected for so many things before becoming confused. By moving the contact point to the flank it is easier for them to understand. They are also less likely to go down in the rear, as they move away from the stimulation.

I have watched guys use the e-collar on the neck to correct 5 different offensives in rapid succession. They knew why they were pushing the button, the dog didn't have a clue. Moving the point of contact helps them understand a bit better.

Neil Mace

[SanerSoft]

I have watched guys use the e-collar on the neck to correct 5 different offensives in rapid succession. They knew why they were pushing the button, the dog didn't have a clue. Moving the point of contact helps them understand a bit better.

Neil Mace

I use the ecollar to correct a dog for ignoring a know verbal or whistle command. And/or they are notified with a verbal "no" prior to receiving the stim. If the dog isn't understanding the command or is confused about what you are asking, they should not even be wearing an ecollar.

[Chukar12]

A dog should not be corrected or stimmed with an e-collar unless it disobeys a known command...UNLESS you understand and are adept at training techniques such as avoidance training where they have a purpose. None of us should make blanket statements ... and answering a question to the best of your ability is fine, but to assume because you have read a little and began working a single dog that you have absolutes is wrong. Especially, if you have bounced around a few techniques and finally hit on one you think works for you.

You can get whoa with or without the word, in the yard or in the field with birds only, with a neck point of contact or a flank...how adept you are with the methodology is what makes a difference. I like a flank point of contact for the exact reasons that Neil pointed out and I can make it work with a heeling stop, a place board or a whoa post to condition the dog. It is not the collar or the dog that it is the issue, its the trainer.

[Neil]

All Chukar12 said was good, the last sentence gold.

To all that have demeaned the e-collar on the flank:

I have no intention of debating the value of the flank collar, I answered the question as best I could, use it or don't, I don't care.

[ruffbritt4]

I've never even tried the flank collar method but how ever good it might me, it must be hard to learn. I see this come up a lot, people either having trouble with it or saying it simply is not working. I've never used anything but Delmars original whoa post method and it's never failed me. One guy PM'ed me on another site and had some question, I don't recall what it was. But in the exchange whoa breaking came up and he said he'd given up on it, it doesn't work. Come to find out he was using the flank collar. he'd never heard or seen the original method so we went over it. he got it and his dog whoa's now.

The only change I made to Delmar's method is the introduction of the e-collar. it goes around the neck, is worn from the beginning and once whoa is learned, the dog is introduced to the collar while still on the check cord.

Remote launcher's are no substitute for learning the whoa command. Get them for that and you are just kidding yourself. You can walk all around the small problem but until you quit thinking, your not gonna get it. Your making an ordeal out of this. The idea is to simply teach the dog to stop and stand still. That's all. Have nothing to do with birds, nothing! Just stop and stand still. Perfect training video train's it from the heel position, it works. I had to get my head around that and finally compared it to teaching sit in obedience. Same exact thing but rather than having the dog sit on the sit command, you have it simply stop and stand still with a whoa command. All you are doing with either the whoa post or the heeling method is teaching the dog to stop and stand still. Get all that other cr*p out of your mind!

I am new to all of this, my first bird dog and I am training him with my dad. I have heard that some people never taught their dog woah, they used remote launchers and let the dog learn. I'm not trying to go around problems, but am looking for multiple solutions. Like I said, my first bird dog, I'm not trying to make a deal out of it, I just want to do it right. It doesn't mean I'm going to use it, I just thought I would consider it.

[Sharon]

We have done woah with a half hitch on his waist, do you then make the transition with the ecollar?

Yes Start using both at the same time and gradually eliminate the hitch.

[ruffbritt4]

We have done woah with a half hitch on his waist, do you then make the transition with the ecollar?

Yes Start using both at the same time and gradually eliminate the hitch.

Thank you all for the help.

[SanerSoft]

Chuckar12 - so with all your knowledge, wisdom and experience do you recommend that the gentlemen who started this threat use a belly collar on his dog?

[ruffbritt4]

Chuckar12 - so with all your knowledge, wisdom and experience do you recommend that the gentlemen who started this threat use a belly collar on his dog?

I simply asked about it, I decided I don't know enough about it to use it. I will just use the half hitch. Like I said, first bird dog.

[Chukar12]

Chuckar12 - so with all your knowledge, wisdom and experience do you recommend that the gentlemen who started this threat use a belly collar on his dog?

The original poster did not ask for a recommendation, he or she asked about experiences. My 'recommendation" would be predicated on what help, resources and commitment the trainer has at their disposal as well as what they want out of their dog. My blanket recommendation for the inexperienced is the West method or variations thereof; IMO it is the most natural way for a dog to learn and strongly supported by Maurice and Jonesy for folks inclined to ask here. As you well know, the flank collar does not come into play there.

There are only three reasons I even teach the command 'whoa" Safety, convenience and field trials. I don't teach dogs to sit, and a recall can still take a moving dog into danger, whoa stops them where they are. My experience that you were kind enough to point out above can tell me when I see trouble brewing in a trial, I don't like to use "whoa" and don't very often, but I want it when I want it in these silly dog games I invest so much time in.

If the original poster chooses Hickox, Smith or any other method that employs the flank point of contact to follow after his or her research there will be plenty of folks to help through any of the pitfalls that could occur as they could with any other method. Again, Sanersoft I will reiterate it is not the method or the collar it is the trainer. I watched a well known "West method" pro trainer use two collars on a rogue pointing lab to stop it from chasing birds. Couldn't stop it with one.

[Chukar12]

sorry Ruff I was typing this before I saw your response

[Chukar12]

This dog right here was green broke incredibly easy with a pinch collar and stop to flushes. For all intents and purposes once he knew that birds in the air meant stop, he was fine with not moving...even when he graduated to launchers on scent and the free quail, he was just fine with being broke. Congruently, I taught him in the yard whoa with a place board, clicking and treating and a flank collar. I knew the dog, and as easily as he broke and compliant as he was he was he was destined to be a challenge because he just didn't make mistakes. In the picture below this pup is 15 months old a year or so ago and we are in the desert working chukar from horseback. In this picture I had ridden around 100 yards or so back watching that pup point, singing like I couldn't find him, while a chukar walked around the rocks 30 yards in front of him. He stood it all. At the flush, the bird flew straight over him he wheeled to mark and started to go...i knicked the belly collar and he stopped. That's all a flank stimulation and a flying bird had ever meant, the same thing ..."stop." Does he look traumatized? This is his demeanor after I had dropped the transmitter and pulled my camera as he marked his bird.

[SanerSoft]

I agree 100 percent it is about how the trainer handles the dog, not the method. But, Pro Trainers develop methods that work for THEM and then they promote and sell seminars teaching novice trainers how to use their "method". So to the novice trainer attending the seminar, it is all about the method.

I would guess that 90% of the people asking quesitons on this forum will train one dog every 7 to 10 years so they better choose a method that is least likely to result in a dog that won't hunt.

[ruffbritt4]

sorry Ruff I was typing this before I saw your response

Not a problem, thanks for explaining it.

I agree 100 percent it is about how the trainer handles the dog, not the method. But, Pro Trainers develop methods that work for THEM and then they promote and sell seminars teaching novice trainers how to use their "method". So to the novice trainer attending the seminar, it is all about the method.

I would guess that 90% of the people asking quesitons on this forum will train one dog every 7 to 10 years so they better choose a method that is least likely to result in a dog that won't hunt.

The dogs belly is way more sensitive so you can use way lower level of stimulation and it feels like a tickle to the dog. Has anyone had a negative experience with the belly collar? Also, the collar on dogs flank only is used for woah. Is this information correct?

[Chukar12]

The dogs belly is way more sensitive so you can use way lower level of stimulation and it feels like a tickle to the dog. Has anyone had a negative experience with the belly collar? Also, the collar on dogs flank only is used for woah. Is this information correct?

Well I dont know if they feel a tickle per se...I assume that electricity feels the same to them as us and it takes very little for me to think..."I don't care for that." The belly generally has less hair to impede the connection and there may be more nerves at the surface than the neck but I really couldn't say. In any application I have been taught at the flank it is only for stop as Neil described a ways back in the post.

[rinker]

Against my better judgement, I am going to dive in to this discussion. In my opinion, when used properly the flank collar is not a correction or a punishment, it is a cue. When useing the hitch around the belly and whoa post no verbal command is given, not 'whoa' not any thing. The dog learns over time that when he hits the end of the rope and there is pressure on his belly he needs to stand still to relieve that pressure or at least to not make it worse. If he fights it and struggles with it the pressure on the belly becomes greater. The dog learns that standing still is the way to turn off the pressure. Later, the hitch is over laid with the flank ecollar and the lesson is transferred. The dog learns that when he feels stimulation, the way to turn it off is to stand still. If he doesn't stand still the stimulation will become greater, the cue will be escalated. Stimulation from the flank collar is a cue to stand still, it is not a punishment for moving. To this point in training, no word meaning stop/stand still has been spoken, this can be overlaid later if you would like. Over time the bird becomes the cue.

Some have said that 'I can enforce multiple commands with the ecollar on the neck'. I am sure that this is true, but you can not give multiple cues with the collar on the neck. That is why the flank collar is used to give a different point of contact for a different cue.

Here is an example that helped me understand this. Imagine that you are riding a horse. To cue the horse to turn right, or at least to turn his head right, you pull on the right rein. No horse likes having his face pulled on, but this isn't punishment or correction, it is a cue. If the horse ignores, you can pull harder, or escalate the cue. The moment the horse turns or turns his head, the rein is dropped and the cue is over. The horse turns this pressure off by turning his head. Pulling on the right rein can be overlayed with a different cue, maybe a verbal cue, or just shifting in the saddle. In time, the horse will learn this new cue for turning right because it has been over layed with pulling on the right rein.

The flank collar does not work because the belly is more or less sensitive, it works because it is a different point of contact. The dog can differentiate the cue because it is different from any other cue, or correction, or any thing else that he is given

[ruffbritt4]

The dogs belly is way more sensitive so you can use way lower level of stimulation and it feels like a tickle to the dog. Has anyone had a negative experience with the belly collar? Also, the collar on dogs flank only is used for woah. Is this information correct?

Well I dont know if they feel a tickle per se...I assume that electricity feels the same to them as us and it takes very little for me to think..."I don't care for that." The belly generally has less hair to impede the connection and there may be more nerves at the surface than the neck but I really couldn't say. In any application I have been taught at the flank it is only for stop as Neil described a ways back in the post.

Well ya it doesn't tickle, but you can use lower levels of stimulation.

Against my better judgement, I am going to dive in to this discussion. In my opinion, when used properly the flank collar is not a correction or a punishment, it is a cue. When useing the hitch around the belly and whoa post no verbal command is given, not 'whoa' not any thing. The dog learns over time that when he hits the end of the rope and there is pressure on his belly he needs to stand still to relieve that pressure or at least to not make it worse. If he fights it and struggles with it the pressure on the belly becomes greater. The dog learns that standing still is the way to turn off the pressure. Later, the hitch is over laid with the flank ecollar and the lesson is transferred. The dog learns that when he feels stimulation, the way to turn it off is to stand still. If he doesn't stand still the stimulation will become greater, the cue will be escalated. Stimulation from the flank collar is a cue to stand still, it is not a punishment for moving. To this point in training, no word meaning stop/stand still has been spoken, this can be overlaid later if you would like. Over time the bird becomes the cue.

Some have said that 'I can enforce multiple commands with the ecollar on the neck'. I am sure that this is true, but you can not give multiple cues with the collar on the neck. That is why the flank collar is used to give a different point of contact for a different cue.

Here is an example that helped me understand this. Imagine that you are riding a horse. To cue the horse to turn right, or at least to turn his head right, you pull on the right rein. No horse likes having his face pulled on, but this isn't punishment or correction, it is a cue. If the horse ignores, you can pull harder, or escalate the cue. The moment the horse turns or turns his head, the rein is dropped and the cue is over. The horse turns this pressure off by turning his head. Pulling on the right rein can be overlayed with a different cue, maybe a verbal cue, or just shifting in the saddle. In time, the horse will learn this new cue for turning right because it has been over layed with pulling on the right rein.

The flank collar does not work because the belly is more or less sensitive, it works because it is a different point of contact. The dog can differentiate the cue because it is different from any other cue, or correction, or any thing else that he is given

That was a good explanation. Thanks to everybody for the help.

[41magsnub]

I am starting into the flank collar deal tonight and bought a new Garmin Delta for that purpose and our daily walks where the Alpha is overkill.

I was planning to use the vibrate function on the delta instead of stimulation for this purpose. Any possible issues with that? It seems to me like it would do the same thing. We've been just doing the rope and whoa post so far which she responds to very well.

As a side note, my aunt has a hard headed boxer that was unresponsive to traditional sit and stay training. I thought she was crazy or doing it wrong, but I tried it with the same results. This weekend I rigged her (the dog) up on check cords/whoa post which worked great with the knot on top of her back.

[ruffbritt4]

I am starting into the flank collar deal tonight and bought a new Garmin Delta for that purpose and our daily walks where the Alpha is overkill.

I was planning to use the vibrate function on the delta instead of stimulation for this purpose. Any possible issues with that? It seems to me like it would do the same thing. We've been just doing the rope and whoa post so far which she responds to very well.

As a side note, my aunt has a hard headed boxer that was unresponsive to traditional sit and stay training. I thought she was crazy or doing it wrong, but I tried it with the same results. This weekend I rigged her (the dog) up on check cords/whoa post which worked great with the knot on top of her back.

Sorry if i missed it, but can you explain the reason on using the vibration function? I would just use low levels of stimulation, it's what the trainers say to do. I decided no flank collar.

[kninebirddog]

Against my better judgement, I am going to dive in to this discussion. In my opinion, when used properly the flank collar is not a correction or a punishment, it is a cue.

This right here is where many fail with the e collar as many still view it as a punishment of an unwanted behavior rather then utilizing how to use the lower levels of stimulation as a CUE ..just like the tug of a check cord .