The Worst Advice I Have Ever Read

Post by **Sharon** » Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:23 pm

from another forum:

Names have been changed to protect the guilty one giving out terrible advice to newbies. Yes I'm hot about this. Yes I may be over reacting.

"I always wonder why people think they need to train their pointer to point. A pointing breed will hold point when its good and ready. Training can start when the dog is holding point long enough for you to walk up to the dog. For how long this takes varies by dog and by breed but some, especially setters, mature later and can take more time. I ran my 1st Setter for 2 seasons before she would even point instead of busting.

It takes time. Have patience. In the mean time run on as many wild birds as you can so the dog cannot catch them. Throw the launchers in the garage and forget about them . Get on your yard work everyday and just enjoy watching your puppy work this out.

BTW it took 1.5 seasons before our current Setter would hold point. My current GSP is 9 months and he just started last week. Its still iffy if he will stop; he backs real good though! "

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:32 pm

Am I missing something?? Are you posting the bad advice?? Offering a response to the bad advice??

"I always wonder why people think they need to train their pointer to point. For how long this takes varies by dog and by breed but some, especially setters, mature later and can take more time. I ran my 1st Setter for 2 seasons before she would even point instead of busting.

It takes time. Have patience. In the mean time run on as many wild birds as you can so the dog cannot catch them. Throw the launchers in the garage and forget about them .

These parts particularly, at least to me, sounds like pretty solid observations followed by some pretty solid advice. ???

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:41 pm

Seems fair enough to me, too. Some people just have to mess with things that don't need messed with so they can say they did, though.

Angus · Post by **Angus** » Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:11 pm

I would state the truth and then leave that forum.

I would also like to know the forum that this was posted on.

mask · Post by **mask** » Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:21 pm

I'm not sure what the truth is here. If you have to train a pointing dog to point you may very well have a cull.

Quailcommando · Post by **Quailcommando** » Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:26 pm

I'm missing the issue also?

Angus wrote:I would state the truth and then leave that forum.

I would also like to know the forum that this was posted on.

What's the truth?

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:44 pm

Sharon wrote:from another forum:

Names have been changed to protect the guilty one giving out terrible advice to newbies. Yes I'm hot about this. Yes I may be over reacting.

"I always wonder why people think they need to train their pointer to point. A pointing breed will hold point when its good and ready. Training can start when the dog is holding point long enough for you to walk up to the dog. For how long this takes varies by dog and by breed but some, especially setters, mature later and can take more time. I ran my 1st Setter for 2 seasons before she would even point instead of busting.

It takes time. Have patience. In the mean time run on as many wild birds as you can so the dog cannot catch them. Throw the launchers in the garage and forget about them . Get on your yard work everyday and just enjoy watching your puppy work this out.

BTW it took 1.5 seasons before our current Setter would hold point. My current GSP is 9 months and he just started last
week. Its still iffy if he will stop; he backs real good though! "

Well, Sharon, certainly not my cup of tea! Some dog's would die of old age before they'd point! I agree, you shouldn't have to TEACH a dog to point, but sure as heck doesn't hurt to develop and hone the instinct!

Post by **Sharon** » Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:56 pm

There are some correct statements, but telling a young guy who is having trouble with his dog always busting in - " It may take years. Forget launchers." - just made me mad. I guess I am over -reacting.

Post by **Sharon** » Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:57 pm

[quote="DGFavor"]Am I missing something?? Are you posting the bad advice?? Offering a response to the bad advice?? quote

posting bad advice

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Fri Nov 01, 2013 7:24 pm

For a young dog, that is great advice.

Angus · Post by **Angus** » Fri Nov 01, 2013 7:25 pm

Quailcommando wrote:I'm missing the issue also?
Angus wrote:I would state the truth and then leave that forum.

I would also like to know the forum that this was posted on.
What's the truth?

Truth is subjective. You may have read the OP differently than I. Pointing dogs are bred to point IMO. My Setter pointed the day he was brought home at 8.5 weeks. Giving bad advice because of poor breeding is a shame. Though time and patience are needed to nurture that point into something productive.

Still wish Sharon would provide the location of such discussion.

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Fri Nov 01, 2013 7:46 pm

I guess I am over -reacting.

hmmm, over reacting?...The Worst Advice I Have Ever Read...I dunno......there may be a little wiggle room there.

Post by **Sharon** » Fri Nov 01, 2013 8:47 pm

Angus wrote:
Quailcommando wrote:I'm missing the issue also?
Angus wrote:I would state the truth and then leave that forum.

I would also like to know the forum that this was posted on.
What's the truth?
Truth is subjective. You may have read the OP differently than I. Pointing dogs are bred to point IMO. My Setter pointed the day he was brought home at 8.5 weeks. Giving bad advice because of poor breeding is a shame. Though time and patience are needed to nurture that point into something productive.

Still wish Sharon would provide the location of such discussion.

It's not going to happen. Are you trying to get me in big trouble?

Post by **Sharon** » Fri Nov 01, 2013 8:50 pm

Elkhunter wrote:For a young dog, that is great advice.

I said the owner was inexperienced , not that the dog was young. Dog needing help is 10 months old- that why the OP was asking for help.

(My husband told me not to post the thread. )

..................................................

clarification: The 10 month old dog is busting birds only - no pointing. The adviser says, " Forget the launcher, and give him a couple years. He'll point when he is ready."

Gentlemen: If you read that advice here.....................

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:15 pm

Sharon,

It is close to the worst advice I have seen. You did not over-react. Those that disagree are from areas with more wild birds, but even then they are wasting a lot of time and energy.

Today, we know how to develop dogs, we don't have to hope they eventually train themselves.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:16 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:
Sharon wrote:from another forum:

Names have been changed to protect the guilty one giving out terrible advice to newbies. Yes I'm hot about this. Yes I may be over reacting.

"I always wonder why people think they need to train their pointer to point. A pointing breed will hold point when its good and ready. Training can start when the dog is holding point long enough for you to walk up to the dog. For how long this takes varies by dog and by breed but some, especially setters, mature later and can take more time. I ran my 1st Setter for 2 seasons before she would even point instead of busting.

It takes time. Have patience. In the mean time run on as many wild birds as you can so the dog cannot catch them. Throw the launchers in the garage and forget about them . Get on your yard work everyday and just enjoy watching your puppy work this out.

BTW it took 1.5 seasons before our current Setter would hold point. My current GSP is 9 months and he just started last
week. Its still iffy if he will stop; he backs real good though! "
Well, Sharon, certainly not my cup of tea! Some dog's would die of old age before they'd point! I agree, you shouldn't have to TEACH a dog to point, but sure as heck doesn't hurt to develop and hone the instinct!

It is absoluterly true that SOME dogs would never point and hold as long as they are having fun bumping and chasing. That is why I always have a slight disagreement with people who say let the birds teach them. To a certain extent, this is true and that may be all it takes for exceptional dogs, but for others, while wild birds are great, it still takes training and controlled situations to make and honest birddog. Having said that, I wouldn't say this is the worst advise I have ever heard, providing the OP doesn't mind taking a couple of yrs. to find out if it is going to work.

However, if I had to teach a dog to point, he would be finding a new home.

Charlie

Post by **slistoe** » Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:21 pm

Are you the owner of a dog that you want to make into something useful or are you a breeder trying to develop better dogs. Horrible advice, or some of the best advice you will ever get.

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Fri Nov 01, 2013 10:07 pm

Sharon I cringe more when I see people telling a new person to grab a bunch of pigeons and start popping launchers. If he is in an area with wild birds the advice given was good IMO. A dog that wants to be honest on its own is significantly better than a dog that was "taught" to be honest.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Fri Nov 01, 2013 10:59 pm

I'd let a pup run on wild birds if there were a lot around here but no way would i get rid of my launcher's. It's not so much teaching the pup to point the bird but rather how to keep the bird from busting out. The bad advice seem's to me to between suggesting that it may take a year and a half or more to get the pup to point. hog wash! Now if he told the guy that if he would just keep running the dog on birds till it started pointing but to expect it to take a year and a half or better, that is bull. Why would anyone want a pup that take's a year and a half or more to do what it was bred to do?

I had a guy bring over a nice female shorthair a couple years ago. It was given to him by a preserve that said the dog had to much prey drive and would never point. Oh really? Took about six pigeons in a remote trap and the dog started pointing. The bad part of training on wild birds is they do not care what your agenda is. They might be where you expect them and might not. They will flush out if the pup get's to close before it stops. If the pup is coming on the wrong side of the wind and get's to close, the bird flush's and the pup is going to chase. The remote traps allow you to teach the pup how to keep the bird from flushing. Doing that let's you know exactly where the bird is and where to come in from to be in the scent cone. Pop the bird soon as it's in the scent cone and the pup learns it's moving the bird. Let the birds just fly away before the pup scent's them and they learn to chase. At some point way down the road, the pup will probably eventually put together the idea that a certain smell means a bird and if it keep's going it won't catch the bird, that all it wants to do. A lot of people train by simply taking their dog hunting. If it works for them, good for them. But I would never give the advice that was noted there.

Bodie pointed the very first pigeon he ever ran on in a trap. I was going to pop it out before he could but the sucker beat me to it. Took Squirt about three birds to do the same thing. Both ran on a bunch of "bleep" birds prior to that. Bodie pointed then chased, Squirt just pushed them out. Duke had no idea what a bird was when I got him. He'd been kept in a kennel the first ten month's of his life. You went for a walk with him and he stayed with you and never chased "bleep" birds. Took setting him up aabout eight time's and he started pointing. I don't believe and well bred dog needs a year and a half to start pointing.

Tooling · Post by **Tooling** » Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:32 am

I seem to recall reading somewhere that Dixielands Rusty did not point right away and had to "learn". I also recall account by witness that he was always difficult to keep staunch and never REALLY was because his prey drive was just unreal.

If you're in an area w/ a lot of wild birds doesn't that "advice" make sense to some degree? ...at least for a young dog?

I mean folks have different techniques and that approach seems to be consistent with the adage that says "anything you put in, takes something out".

Quailcommando · Post by **Quailcommando** » Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:47 am

I know growing up this is how we trained dogs other then the time line if they did not start picking it up early they sure did not stay long. Now times are changing if you still have a bird population it works, no better trainer then a wild bird. If no birds or playing games you need to buy a launcher and store bought birds.

Sean · Post by **Sean** » Sat Nov 02, 2013 9:01 am

DonF wrote:The remote traps allow you to teach the pup how to keep the bird from flushing. Doing that let's you know exactly where the bird is and where to come in from to be in the scent cone. Pop the bird soon as it's in the scent cone and the pup learns it's moving the bird. Let the birds just fly away before the pup scent's them and they learn to chase. At some point way down the road, the pup will probably eventually put together the idea that a certain smell means a bird and if it keep's going it won't catch the bird, that all it wants to do. A lot of people train by simply taking their dog hunting. If it works for them, good for them. But I would never give the advice that was noted there.

Not trying to take this thread down a different route but at what age do you start using poppers? Don, it sounds like most dogs begin holding point after 6-8 birds, do you start shooting birds (provided the gun has been introduced) shortly thereafter so they are able to retrieve and get the "reward" of holding point?

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Sat Nov 02, 2013 9:54 am

Can't speak for Don (The Launcher Master), but. I use mine on pups from 12 weeks on. I show them what I want, then let breeding take over.

I also don't let mine chase too much, just as young pups. I don't believe it builds prey drive and I don't believe it builds boldness. I so let them chase as young pups and give them a TON on happy timing, just letting them explore and run by themselves.

For prey drive I have them retrieving clipwings quail or pigeons from 10-12 weeks on. I believe it's the bird in the mouth that builds prey drive and retrieving desire. Those two things can be used to overcome many problems that may develop later on.

I know I'm closed minded on some things and one of those things is the use of launchers and training a dog young. When I can SHOW a pup what I want and expect from him in a couple of weeks or less rather than letting him take a year to two figuring it out on his own, that makes sense. As far as I'm concerned, letting a pup develop on his own only installs problems I'll have to correct later.

And once again, NO, I don't field trial and YES, I do like a gun dog that ranges no more than 200 yards from me. Personal preferences.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Sat Nov 02, 2013 11:21 am

At what age do I start? depends on the pup but once they are good to go in most cover and have been chasing "bleep" birds a while, I'll set out traps with birds in them. I try to keep them from being able to point them though. I know exactly where the bird is and when the pup should hit scent. I can move the bird whenever I want. Then you control the learning and the wild bird polish's it later.

Early on the pup does things because it's looking for approval from you. Then second year madness hit's and the pup that was so good last year suddenly decides to start trying things it's own way and you get caught at a loss. Only thing that happened was the pup grew up into a teenager and you weren't prepared for it. Or, you were expecting it and fell that that's the way things should be. That is fine with me but it doesn't work for me.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:26 pm

Sharon wrote:
(My husband told me not to post the thread. )

Perhaps we should all listen to our 'Better half's' Sometimes :roll:

Posting such a topic without the whole story of the other party , is like a journalist Printing something in the newspaper without a copy of the other party having a say?
Sensationalism makes headlines for newspaper journalists that do this.
Especially in print , as there is no 'tone' or other factors that may or may not have led up to the 'Quote'?......Just saying! . Before the Posse' is gathered and the noose is slung over the Oak tree .

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:11 am

This is a classic example of why people quit posting on these forums - who wants to post something and have someone who may well know nothing about dogs or have significantly less experience post "The Worst Advice I Have Ever Read" in reference to a technique(s) that likely has worked well for the poster in the past. Just the responses in this thread exhibit that. The "worst advice ever" referenced in this thread is very similar to the way we raise our dogs and I have been happy with what we have accomplished with them. I would guess it is the technique most that are not too lazy or infirm out west use. I try to find the humor in these things vs. the conflict in order to keep posting here and entertaining myself - beats getting mad, taking my ball and going home!!

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:58 am

I keep getting the feeling that I am missing or not understanding something in this thread. I have just re-read it and I am still none the wiser. I am in favour of hunting pointing pups on wild game just as much as I possibly can but I can certainly see a place for using pigeon release traps if wild game is hard to come by or perhaps during the gamebirds breeding season.

I definitely would not like to wait until a dog was 18 months to 2 years old before it started to point but that aside I didn't think it was the worst advice I've ever read.

Bill T.

cjuve · Post by **cjuve** » Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:58 pm

This is a classic example of why people quit posting on these forums - who wants to post something and have someone who may well know nothing about dogs or have significantly less experience post "The Worst Advice I Have Ever Read" in reference to a technique(s) that likely has worked well for the poster in the past. Just the responses in this thread exhibit that. The "worst advice ever" referenced in this thread is very similar to the way we raise our dogs and I have been happy with what we have accomplished with them. I would guess it is the technique most that are not too lazy or infirm out west use.

I would agree with this, IMO launchers are for people that can't get to the real thing they either don't have wild birds or are too OLD to put in the miles. I wonder how many National champions were trained to point using launchers? There is a reason that the pros go train on wild birds every summer.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Sun Nov 03, 2013 1:51 pm

You just might be surprised at how many NFC have been broke using launchers & it's more then one!

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:56 pm

You just might be surprised at how many NFC have been broke using launchers & it's more then one!

No doubt, and similarily the number of champion dogs trained and broke entirely on wild game. Wide range of ways to get the job done, including combinations of all of the above...none of which I'd characterize as the worst advice ever.

Worst advice ever IMO falls into things like recommending that to "see if your puppy is gunshy", take it to the gun range....or recommending you take your pup just freshly back from the trainer out with a busload of your closest buddies and their dogs for bird hunt to see how well trained it is. Stuff like that.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Sun Nov 03, 2013 3:21 pm

I agree 100% Doug.I'm in Ohio & unfortunately we don't have enough wild birds to work dogs enough on to get them broke so have to use what's available.When I started we had Bob W Quail out the butt but the blizzards of 77 & 78 wiped out 90%
of them & it's been down hill ever since. I used to be able to go out my door jump a fence in any direction & shoot my limit but it's been a good 15 yrs since I have even heard any callin in the spring.We do have some huntable numbers in different counties but mostly on private land & finding & getting permission is next to impossible.The public land that holds a few birds gets hit so hard starting the season the birds get driven off to private lands surrounding.Quail season only last 3 wks can drive 100 miles to some public land for phez but they get driven once again onto private ground.

Of course we all would prefer to hunt wild birds but can't afford to pack up & drive 1300 or more miles every time we would like to go hunting.You guys that have wild birds don't know how lucky you are & you need to do what you can to protect it because it can disappear almost over night,don't take it for granted like we use to do!!

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Sun Nov 03, 2013 3:27 pm

Trekmoor wrote:I keep getting the feeling that I am missing or not understanding something in this thread. I have just re-read it and I am still none the wiser. I am in favour of hunting pointing pups on wild game just as much as I possibly can but I can certainly see a place for using pigeon release traps if wild game is hard to come by or perhaps during the gamebirds breeding season.

I definitely would not like to wait until a dog was 18 months to 2 years old before it started to point but that aside I didn't think it was the worst advice I've ever read.

Bill T.

I think the "timeline" seems to be rubbing a lot of the posters here. Wild birds, pigeons and launchers are all good stuff. The question becomes, to me, when and how to use and introduce them.

cjuve · Post by **cjuve** » Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:09 pm

Of course we all would prefer to hunt wild birds but can't afford to pack up & drive 1300 or more miles every time we would like to go hunting. You guys that have wild birds don't know how lucky you are & you need to do what you can to protect it because it can disappear almost over night, don't take it for granted like we use to do!!

Not that I am trying to rub things in but 7 coveys yesterday, 2 STF, 4 pointed cleanly and 1 wild flush in 3.5 hrs ended up with enough birds to eat for dinner. It's great to live in a state that is a majority publicly owned. I wonder how many launchers It would take to be able to duplicate that for a dog.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:15 pm

Probably about as many as it takes to make a NC!! :roll:

shags · Post by **shags** » Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:23 pm

cjuve wrote:Not that I am trying to rub things in but 7 coveys yesterday, 2 STF, 4 pointed cleanly and 1 wild flush in 3.5 hrs ended up with enough birds to eat for dinner. It's great to live in a state that is a majority publicly owned. I wonder how many launchers It would take to be able to duplicate that for a dog.

Lol! Us OLD people who live here in Launcher Land can get that much birdwork done in about 30 minutes, leaving us plenty of time to hit KFC for dinner!

Post by **slistoe** » Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:28 pm

shags wrote:
cjuve wrote:Not that I am trying to rub things in but 7 coveys yesterday, 2 STF, 4 pointed cleanly and 1 wild flush in 3.5 hrs ended up with enough birds to eat for dinner. It's great to live in a state that is a majority publicly owned. I wonder how many launchers It would take to be able to duplicate that for a dog.
Lol! Us OLD people who live here in Launcher Land can get that much birdwork done in about 30 minutes, leaving us plenty of time to hit KFC for dinner!

cjuve · Post by **cjuve** » Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:53 pm

shags wrote:
cjuve wrote:Not that I am trying to rub things in but 7 coveys yesterday, 2 STF, 4 pointed cleanly and 1 wild flush in 3.5 hrs ended up with enough birds to eat for dinner. It's great to live in a state that is a majority publicly owned. I wonder how many launchers It would take to be able to duplicate that for a dog.
Lol! Us OLD people who live here in Launcher Land can get that much birdwork done in about 30 minutes, leaving us plenty of time to hit KFC for dinner!

Keep telling yourself that

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:57 pm

They only thing dumber than the quoted first post are the arguments that followed. You would think you guys that live near higher levels of wild birds would have better things to do with your time, like train on wild birds.

I can assure you none of you, even combined, have enough money to get me to move to the areas that hold larger numbers of wild birds. And that includes Mexico, but only because of safety issues for my family.

It may not the worst advice ever, but it was plenty bad, as was the defense of it.

Neil

Quailcommando · Post by **Quailcommando** » Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:07 pm

Neil wrote:
I can assure you none of you, even combined, have enough money to get me to move to the areas that hold larger numbers of wild birds.

Neil

I think it's safe to say that's not going to hurt any feelings!

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:33 pm

Quailcommando wrote:
Neil wrote:
I can assure you none of you, even combined, have enough money to get me to move to the areas that hold larger numbers of wild birds.

Neil
I think it's safe to say that's not going to hurt any feelings!

It might hurt the feelings of my current neighbors, they might want me to move were I as bad as you imply.

Quailcommando · Post by **Quailcommando** » Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:36 pm

Very true

mrtyde · Post by **mrtyde** » Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:13 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:I agree 100% Doug.I'm in Ohio & unfortunately we don't have enough wild birds to work dogs enough on to get them broke so have to use what's available.When I started we had Bob W Quail out the butt but the blizzards of 77 & 78 wiped out 90%
of them & it's been down hill ever since. I used to be able to go out my door jump a fence in any direction & shoot my limit but it's been a good 15 yrs since I have even heard any callin in the spring.We do have some huntable numbers in different counties but mostly on private land & finding & getting permission is next to impossible.The public land that holds a few birds gets hit so hard starting the season the birds get driven off to private lands surrounding.Quail season only last 3 wks can drive 100 miles to some public land for phez but they get driven once again onto private ground.

Of course we all would prefer to hunt wild birds but can't afford to pack up & drive 1300 or more miles every time we would like to go hunting.You guys that have wild birds don't know how lucky you are & you need to do what you can to protect it because it can disappear almost over night,don't take it for granted like we use to do!!

I'm with you on this. I'm in southeastern Ohio and if it weren't for pen-raised birds I would not be able to have bird dogs "birds make bird dogs"!

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:22 pm

I am reminded of a transplanted Yankee who left our state to return to New Jersey, when informed of it, my neighbor quiped, "With that single act he has raised the social discourse of both states". It was a compliment only a true Southerner could deliver.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:08 pm

I will agree that in a lot of cases it is not bad advise. However, I was running bird dogs back when a covey of quail could be found in dang near every draw or section of cover as long as a food source was close. And I have seen dogs that would have never been broke from bumping and chasing if it had not been for light load #8 bird shot if you know what I mean. This was after yard work and whoa breaking was done and the dog knew it was doing wrong because one in particular would alway come back with ears and tail pinned down after flushing a covey because she knew she had done wrong and was in trouble. Also, this dog was a natural pointer and was pointing out of the whelping box [so to speak]. The problem is, after the point, she loved to chase so much that I believe the chase became the reward for finding the birds. After a couple of years of scoldings and beatings [because she knew she was doing wrong and refused to whoa] one treatment of the #8 bird shot broke her STWS, and she became an awesome bird dog. Back then I trained on nothing but wild birds and to be fair, I have had other dogs that were totally broke by the time they were 7 to 18 mos. old. This was long before I had access to all the training equipment and pen raised birds that are available now for controlled scenarios to either fix problems or speed up the training process. My intent is not to be argumentive with the ones with different opinions, but only to share why I believe, while wild birds are the best deal, there are a lot of dogs that require different methods of training. I hope this helps some understand what is being said, unless I am considered one of the people who know nothing about gun dogs.

And BTW, sorry to be so long winded.

Charlie

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Mon Nov 04, 2013 5:45 am

birddogger wrote:I will agree that in a lot of cases it is not bad advise. However, I was running bird dogs back when a covey of quail could be found in dang near every draw or section of cover as long as a food source was close. And I have seen dogs that would have never been broke from bumping and chasing if it had not been for light load #8 bird shot if you know what I mean. This was after yard work and whoa breaking was done and the dog knew it was doing wrong because one in particular would alway come back with ears and tail pinned down after flushing a covey because she knew she had done wrong and was in trouble. Also, this dog was a natural pointer and was pointing out of the whelping box [so to speak]. The problem is, after the point, she loved to chase so much that I believe the chase became the reward for finding the birds. After a couple of years of scoldings and beatings [because she knew she was doing wrong and refused to whoa] one treatment of the #8 bird shot broke her STWS, and she became an awesome bird dog. Back then I trained on nothing but wild birds and to be fair, I have had other dogs that were totally broke by the time they were 7 to 18 mos. old. This was long before I had access to all the training equipment and pen raised birds that are available now for controlled scenarios to either fix problems or speed up the training process. My intent is not to be argumentive with the ones with different opinions, but only to share why I believe, while wild birds are the best deal, there are a lot of dogs that require different methods of training. I hope this helps some understand what is being said, unless I am considered one of the people who know nothing about gun dogs.

And BTW, sorry to be so long winded.

Charlie

ExActly Charlie. By the way, congratulations; that must be your record-length post on here!!!

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Mon Nov 04, 2013 6:06 am

Thanks GH but I am out of breath!

Charlie

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:25 am

FWIW I live in an area with no wild birds. Or effectivly none. If this advice was my only option I would have quit bird dogs. What else could I do? I can not afford (in money or time) to travel way far away to just train. Often enough for the dog to gain a thing.
Without launchers, heck sometimes even with, my dogs WOULD catch birds which teaches the opposite. Of pointing.

That kind of advice makes me mad. While it is not completely wrong, it's impractical if not impossible for most folks. If that is all we have the birddogs will be a thing of the past quickly. Come live in eastern TN and try that. Even if you can travel be prepared to drive ALOT to get your wild birds.

Admittedly I WISH I could train on wild birds. I WISH we could figure out what the deal is with wild quail populations and fix them. I WISH there were more efforts on wild birds and less pen raised birds.

Jere · Post by **Jere** » Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:43 am

http://www.canadianhuntingdogs.com/foru ... c4f072a083

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:28 am

mountaindogs wrote:FWIW I live in an area with no wild birds. Or effectivly none. If this advice was my only option I would have quit bird dogs. What else could I do? I can not afford (in money or time) to travel way far away to just train. Often enough for the dog to gain a thing.
Without launchers, heck sometimes even with, my dogs WOULD catch birds which teaches the opposite. Of pointing.

That kind of advice makes me mad. While it is not completely wrong, it's impractical if not impossible for most folks. If that is all we have the birddogs will be a thing of the past quickly. Come live in eastern TN and try that. Even if you can travel be prepared to drive ALOT to get your wild birds.

Admittedly I WISH I could train on wild birds. I WISH we could figure out what the deal is with wild quail populations and fix them. I WISH there were more efforts on wild birds and less pen raised birds.

Good point mountaindogs...No pun intended.

Charlie

QuillGordon · Post by **QuillGordon** » Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:37 am

Late here & I have to confess I didn't read every post. Me hound was raised by both popping launchers with pigeon's and run on wild birds. I'm a novice in the pointing dog arena but what I noticed is this; my boy Creek figured out them pigeons in remote launchers very early on and was flawless while still chasing wild birds. I gave up on the launcher/pigeon thang and went strictly wild birds, the transformation from wild yahoo to a honest hound came gradual, it wasn't one day the light came on. Slow but sure progress was made with wild birds until today at three yrs. Now granted we don't have a NFC but what we do have is a very respectable meat dog and that was the goal all along...