NEWBIE! I NEED HELP

jbellflyman · Post by **jbellflyman** » Fri Dec 01, 2006 9:38 am

i am a new GSP owner with a 5-6 month old girl, she is very sweet, playful and hyper. i need to train her to release that energy. can anyone give me some advice? she is started on obedience training with only a choke chain training collar. whats better, a dogtra or the choke chain? i'm not a big hunter but i am getting more and more interested in the upland game bird sport. can some one help me?

Chaingang · Post by **Chaingang** » Fri Dec 01, 2006 9:52 am

Never been to Idaho but hear it is a great place to upland hunt. Lots of wide open spaces. Find some places with bird populations and let her experience what she was born to do. Experience is the best teacher. 5 months old may be a bit young for a lot of obedience. COME or HERE probably being the most important right now. Maybe someone on this board from Idaho can direct you to some areas open to the public.

GsPJustin · Post by **GsPJustin** » Fri Dec 01, 2006 6:41 pm

I agree with chaingang. Theres not to much training you can do now, being obedience or in the field. Just take her to some open land and let her run, if she encounters a bird, then your day just got better. Just let her do what she wants, and expend energy.

TOOTALL · Post by **TOOTALL** » Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:10 pm

GsPJustin wrote:I agree with chaingang. Theres not to much training you can do now, being obedience or in the field. Just take her to some open land and let her run, if she encounters a bird, then your day just got better. Just let her do what she wants, and expend energy.

I really dont understand what you guys mean by its too early to start training. I picked my pup up at 12 wks, and started basic obedience training immediately. Intense training no, fun structured training yes. Hup, Here, Heel, retrieve to hand, exposure to increasingly graduated loud noises, exposure to bird wings and later pigeons ect ect. I just made sure everything was short, fun, structured, and lots of praise and treats. In my opinion the most important thing to remember is not to press too hard or fast with any dog regardless of age. Things not going right, quit for the day and try again tomorrow. I do believe starting early paid huge dividends in the long run though. Granted I am new at this stuff, pup is just over a year now, but what would the benefits of waiting till a certain age before training be? What is the correct age?

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Dec 01, 2006 11:17 pm

I think the difference is that most of the things you listed are what I call play time or normal activities. The actual training comes later after the pup is pointing or chasing birds and part of it comes after a season of hunting.

Other people call it training when they go for a walk with their pup and I guess in someways it is. But the training that needs some maturity for the pup to handle is holding the point, steading to wing and shot, backing, and possibly some form of retrieving. These tend to be negative type training and can put pressure on the pup to the extent that it doesn't want to find birds or even get out front and hunt.

I have found if you want the exciting independant type hunting dog they need to develop their instincts with little help from the trainer. And the way to do that is let them be a pup the first year and do most of the serious training later. Done too early you can have a robot or a dog with little enthusiam for the hunt.

Ezzy

Chaingang · Post by **Chaingang** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:35 am

But the training that needs some maturity for the pup to handle is holding the point, steading to wing and shot, backing, and possibly some form of retrieving. These tend to be negative type training and can put pressure on the pup to the extent that it doesn't want to find birds or even get out front and hunt.

Couldn't have said it better Ezzy. This can be especially true for a dog that is on the softer side. I don't think there is anything wrong with a little yard work as long as you keep it light and do not put too much pressure on. This can include manners around the house etc.. Learn to read the dog. I have only trained my 6 month old a couple commands with any significance (COME and KENNEL), both with good results so far. Everything else has been about bird contact, and letting them do what comes natural.

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 12:52 pm

Wow - you've got all kinds of resources available to you in Boise. The shorthair club there has a number of very nice, knowledgeable, willing to help bird dog folks. I don't see those folks too often but know they used to have training days, fun trials, AKC trials, hunt tests, etc. Most are big time chukar hunters too. Would be a great place to start and get some great training advice.

http://www.gspcidaho.org/

I'm in Boise/Meridian quite a bit hunting but really not the guy to ask about training your dog...I just go hunting and hope I come home with all the animals I left with. If you want to just go strap a tracking collar on 'em, cut 'em loose and find birds, I'm your man.

glk7243 · Post by **glk7243** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 9:40 am

I'm like Doug I mainly just hunt mine. I have over the years spent lots of time doing all that training stuff but anymore I just get the best bred dog I can for chukar hunting and start taking them to the bird hills. Some are hyper some are not, no amount of training will change that. Yours is really young and will grow out of some of that. I wished I still had some young exuberance, 30 years of chukar hunting has my bones wishing they were younger. Well I'm off to chase dogs and birds.

I live in Meridian if you would like a little help. I have pigeons, remote launchers and all that nonsense.

Doug, it looks like them pups should be good ones. I have one of Dan's Annie X Buddy dogs trhat I really like. Will they run like that?
Regards
Gary

GsPJustin · Post by **GsPJustin** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 5:02 pm

TOOTALL,

I think ezzy hit it pretty good, but to describe what I meant.

Your not going to expect a 10 min down-stay from a 12 week old pup. Just like your not going to expect them to hold point for 1 or 2 minutes. So you can't train them to do it. Its like trying to teach a 3 year old Algebra.

IMO Fetch in the yard whether its with a bird, or a ball. Trying to get a pup to heel on a walk. Giving lots of praise and rewards for whoa, kennel, etc... are all just games. Fun things to get the pups process going.

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:23 pm

I have one of Dan's Annie X Buddy dogs trhat I really like. Will they run like that?

Hey Gary - Geez, was that a nice breeding huh!

I hope that litter will make for some nice hunting dogs since that's what most of the guys are after. If they get much of Stitch's giddyup they could be some handfuls but they should find and stand birds while the guys catch up to 'em!

jbellflyman · Post by **jbellflyman** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 8:36 am

hey yall,

thx for the help. Belle is currently under obedience training and is doing great. i just didnt really know how to, or whne to exspose her to the bird chasing experience. DGfavor, i am actually from Rexburg, and i didnt really get into upland game bird til i got over here to the west side of the state. how is the hunting over there in our neck of the woods? let em pose another question, when is the right time for a Dogtra collar or if at all?

Haile · Post by **Haile** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 10:06 am

Whatever you do with your girl, DO NOT TEACH HER TO SIT. SIT is a default command, so in the future in your hunting/training whenever something doesn't "work" in her mind, Sit will. There is nothing worse than a German Shorthaired Pointer-Sitter in the field!

GSPaddict · Post by **GSPaddict** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 10:30 am

I suggest you work on Obedience for now but make it a game. It has to be fun for the dog. Clicker training is a lot of fun if you want to give it a try. And why would you need a choke chain?

TOOTALL · Post by **TOOTALL** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 8:08 pm

ezzy333 wrote:I think the difference is that most of the things you listed are what I call play time or normal activities. The actual training comes later after the pup is pointing or chasing birds and part of it comes after a season of hunting.

Other people call it training when they go for a walk with their pup and I guess in someways it is. But the training that needs some maturity for the pup to handle is holding the point, steading to wing and shot, backing, and possibly some form of retrieving. These tend to be negative type training and can put pressure on the pup to the extent that it doesn't want to find birds or even get out front and hunt.

I have found if you want the exciting independant type hunting dog they need to develop their instincts with little help from the trainer. And the way to do that is let them be a pup the first year and do most of the serious training later. Done too early you can have a robot or a dog with little enthusiam for the hunt.

Ezzy

Ok, I see what you are saying. I guess I just took it for granted that everyone has the commom sense to take it one step at a time and limit expectations based on age and experience. I agree with you put that way. My pup is 13 mos. now and I am waiting until the spring before we start working on steadying.

TrueBlu Shorthairs · Post by **TrueBlu Shorthairs** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:17 am

I find it humorous when people suggest obedience and then say nothing whatsoever about putting the dog on birds, letting them learn to hunt, be independent, point and hold as long as possible, getting them OUT, learn to be bold, etc. I'd listen to Ezzy and to Doug and those who advocate HERE, KENNEL, teaching the dog's name, and lots of exploring the world. I'd stay FAR away from anyone at any formal obedience school. Most know nothing of training a pointing dog.

Buy Delmar Smith's videos, Ferrell Miller, Jon Hann, read Crangle, Roebuck, Delmar Smith/Bill Tarrant, and get the dog outside as much as you possibly can!!

glk7243 · Post by **glk7243** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 4:07 pm

You ask when to expose her to the bird chasing thing. I would not be waiting, I usually start before that. Dogs mature fast, she is at the stage of her life where she learns very fast. She needs to be out running the hills with you right now. She will learn alot and so will you. Just turn her loose and keep your mouth shut. She will learn to keep track of you, which will come in handy as she gets older and bolder. If she finds some birds all the better. As a bonus she will burn up some of that energy you're concerned about.
Good luck
Gary

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 6:58 pm

I don't think you lose a thing in a dog by starting them young. Until they're 6 months they always run with a check cord on and are always on a leash around the yard. At 6-7 months I obedience train them: here, sit, down, heel. At 9-10 months I ff them. Now, all of this time they've been working bird launchers, clip wings, etc. I believe there's no difference in training these dogs versus training a retriever. They can both be taught basically, the same things. Except of course for the point. A lot of this comes from the old school ideas that you let a pup be a pup for 12 months but "the times, they are a changin'".

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 9:50 pm

Gonehuntin'

Your method will work wonders if you want a robot or a dog that will do everything you tell it. But most of us that have pointing dogs just don't want that. Retreivers are supposed to be in control at all times so early training like you suggest is good. But I want a dog that can think for it self, find objectives and have the ability and confidence to go to them even if they are a quarter of mile away or further under the right conditions.

The method you are using doesn't allow that. Your pups will never have the freedom to find everything that is in a field and know how to handle it if they are on a check cord and are restricted from using their bird finding sense.

One of the things that always upset me was people who wanted a birddog because they couldn't find birds without one and then as soon as they get one they tell it where to hunt. If they knew where to hunt they sure didn't need the dog. I have never tried to teach my 7 year old kids to drive and I wouldn't try to teach a dog thats a few months old how to hunt. I can give it some pointers but more importantly I can give it the opportunity to do it on it's own. And that takes freedom and opportunities to find birds and chase till it figures out that it's best to point since it can't catch them anyhow.

That is an old time method that has stood the test of time and is even more popular today than in yester year.

Ezzy

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:05 am

ezzy333 wrote:Gonehuntin'

Your method will work wonders if you want a robot or a dog that will do everything you tell it. But most of us that have pointing dogs just don't want that. Retreivers are supposed to be in control at all times so early training like you suggest is good. But I want a dog that can think for it self, find objectives and have the ability and confidence to go to them even if they are a quarter of mile away or further under the right conditions.

The method you are using doesn't allow that. Your pups will never have the freedom to find everything that is in a field and know how to handle it if they are on a check cord and are restricted from using their bird finding sense.

One of the things that always upset me was people who wanted a birddog because they couldn't find birds without one and then as soon as they get one they tell it where to hunt. If they knew where to hunt they sure didn't need the dog. I have never tried to teach my 7 year old kids to drive and I wouldn't try to teach a dog thats a few months old how to hunt. I can give it some pointers but more importantly I can give it the opportunity to do it on it's own. And that takes freedom and opportunities to find birds and chase till it figures out that it's best to point since it can't catch them anyhow.

That is an old time method that has stood the test of time and is even more popular today than in yester year.

Ezzy

They actually find birds just as well as any other dog, only they do it with more control. As soon as they respond perfectly to the cc and are collar conditioned (usually at about 8-9 months) they come off the cc and are left to explore on their own with guidance from me. They quickly learn to hunt the fence rows, ditches, to quarter a logging road and hunt the creek bottoms. They may in fact, and I for one believe they do, learn it faster than a pup that is just let roll for a year. By a year of age these dogs are obedience trained, forced and collar conditioned and they have just as much drive and are just as happy as any other dog. Except they are under control. I've trained them both ways, and I'll never again be trapped into going back to the old ways. On another point, I am not a field trialer; mine are hunted only.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 9:41 am

I knew you weren't a trialer when you said how you train. I haven't been either except on rare occasion but I am not smart enough to tell a dog what their nose is saying so I want them telling me what I should be doing and where I should be going. The control I want is to have them come when called, stop when told, and to walk with me when asked. The bird stuff is their area of expertise. And I have never found it necessary to FF a hunting dog but occasionally there are dogs that need it. I would wait a season or two first before making that dicision. Of course most of the dogs I have worked with are the continental breeds that by and large are natural retrievers.

The nice thing is though that there are many different ways to train and try to end up with a dog that does things the way you want them to.

Ezzy

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 9:57 am

ezzy333 wrote: The nice thing is though that there are many different ways to train and try to end up with a dog that does things the way you want them to.

Ezzy

I agree Ezzy. To each their own.

Chaingang · Post by **Chaingang** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 6:35 am

I am not smart enough to tell a dog what their nose is saying so I want them telling me what I should be doing and where I should be going.

Ezzy,

Well stated...... I have learned the hard way more than once that my GSP's know far more than I do when it comes to finding birds. And they must learn it on their own without my interference.