GSP Bloodline Characteristics

Will · Post by **Will** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 2:10 pm

Can anybody provide information on the following GSP bloodline's characteristics?

Dixieland, Moesgaard, Windrows Saddle Tramp.

I'm arrainging appointments to visit breeders with these lines, respectively.

I'd like opinions on each bloodline's characteristics such as: natural instinct/pointing ability, drive/desire, hunting range (foot hunter or field trialer), size, etc...anything you know I'd like to hear.

I'm looking for close working GSP for walking pheasant hunter in Central Illinois. I'll limit my search to the Midwest (Iowa, Wisconsin, Illinois, MO).

Thanks for the help.

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 4:11 pm

Will, I sent you an E-mail.
How close are you talking about keeping a dog. It is easier to train a dog to stay within gunrange rather than have one that will not get 50 feet from you.

All of the dogs you have mentioned depending on how they are bred produce various ranging dogs. The Dixieland dogs were very natural vesatile dogs, and in my opinion when you talk about Dixieland Dogs you are essentially talking about a linebred moesgaard dog in Dixielands Rusty. The moesgaard bred dogs very few have much of that blood in them anymore nonetheless they were a dog that ranged a bit bigger but still great birddogs and the foundation dogs for many kennels. As far as Windrows Saddle Tramp ( Cecil ), I have a Cecil son and looked hard and long for him. Cecil dogs are natural early birddogs, Cecil dogs have performed and excelled well in every venue, as well as great personal gundogs. In my opinion Cecil will go down as one of the most dominant producing shorthairs of all time. Opinions vary take it for what it's worth and look at the records they speak for themselves.

Chip Denham

LVRGSP

larue · Post by **larue** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:02 pm

I would not be as concerned about the pedigree's,as much as the dogs
that the parents the pups are from.
Pedigree's are great,but go see the dogs themselves at the kennels you want to look at.

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 6:06 pm

I agree with Larue, If you want to see Susie in action Just get a hold of me, she's phenomenal. Ruger has been seen by many just ask someone will give you there opinion. Bob Merkel has some nice pups on the ground now as well, give me a shout I can get you his number, I spen some time with Bob this summer very knowledgeable, honest guy.

Larue, What happened to your site?

Chip Denham

LVRGSP

Will · Post by **Will** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 9:06 pm

Chip,

My idea of "close working" is a dog that quarters in front out to say 40-60yards then works back to the gun and repeats. I understand training to stay within gunrange is important, but I also believe that genetics has a great deal to do with the dog's tendencies. I spoke with Bob Merkel this morning and it was very enlightening indeed. I'd love to see you Susie work and I have your number. I also have a message into Chris Riddel and look forward to speaking with him.

Thanks for the help/info. We'll talk soon.

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 9:10 pm

Sounds good Will,
You can't go wrong with Mr. Merkels dogs he has some very nice ones alot of dixielands luke. Great birddog, just give me a shout, keep in mind Susie will be welping a litter this week sometime.

Chip

volraider · Post by **volraider** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 9:45 pm

Will,

If you want a dog to quarter 40-60 yards to the front and work back to the gun then you are looking at the wrong blood lines. The bloodlines you mentioned are bigger running dogs and depending on the breeding could be huge running dogs. Most gsp people are tickled to death with the bloodlines you just mentioned because they produce some really nice gundogs but they don't produce 40-60 yard quartering dogs. I would suggest you go with a different bloodline if that is what you want.

Just my opinion

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 9:50 pm

Breed for run, train for range

lvrgsp

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:17 pm

If you want a dog to quarter 40-60 yards to the front and work back to the gun then you are looking at the wrong blood lines.

Wrong bloodline? WRONG BREED!

Be sure that you want a pointing dog because what you are describing is a flushing breed. No pointing dog should hunt like that.

You can do a lot worse then a pup from Bob Merkel & he is one of the most knowlegeable GSP men in the country besides being very honest.

I agree.

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:27 pm

Thanks for the kind words VZ. How is that little allage rocket of yours doing?
The dog in VZKennels avatar is a product of MR. Merkels, and that is one fine birddog you have there Ted.

Were hoping for some good things from this litter.

Chip

Will · Post by **Will** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:31 pm

Yawallac.....have you ever hunted wild pheasant in Central Illinois? We don't have the luxury of birds that sit and let a dog point em while we run like heck to catch up. I'm quite certain of what breed I want, thus I am questioning the bloodline characteristics.

ohiogsp · Post by **ohiogsp** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 11:01 pm

"Breed for run, train for range." Train for range yes, but some dogs with alot of run are very hard to keep in close without constantly hacking on them. They want to go further and will test you forever. My guess is he might be hunting heavy cover cause we have alot of this in our area. I like high drive, fast dogs, with some range but this guy is not looking for that. Some of the dogs he is looking at might be more dog than he wants "I am not familiar with all of them" and maybe the wroung dogs for him. "Will" think about this we are experienced birddoggers here and the dogs we like, might have too much range and drive for you. Think about HUNT TEST or NAVHDA lines these dog are scored on handling and performance for a foot hunter. We all here want to put the right dog in the right persons hands or they will not be happy with it anyway.

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 11:33 pm

You are right Ted and he has sire somewhere near 20 to 30 MH as well, and will continue to improve on that number. He also has sired numerous Vc's and Nstra CH's, and FC's and will add to those number also, a truly versatile sire and very prepotent at that.

Chip

ohiogsp · Post by **ohiogsp** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 11:35 pm

Might be a good choice then. I am not very familiar with this dog.

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 11:41 pm

Ohio, for some reason I was thinking the dog in your avatar Had some of Cecil (Windrows Saddle Tramp) behind it. Hew throws a lot of dogs with big saddles and bigger liver patches.

Chip

GsPJustin · Post by **GsPJustin** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 11:54 pm

I still can't figure out why people want close working pointers....

ohiogsp · Post by **ohiogsp** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 12:00 am

No, probably the most influential dog in his line is Dixieland Rusty. He goes back to him a few times. I have heard of this dog cecil but am not very familiar with him. Sounds like a great dog.

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 12:07 am

The funny thing about that is, no matter what the breeding there can be so much variation withing the litter. To me when you talk Dixieland you are talking about Rusty himself for the most part, I do not know what Rusty ran like and never saw him run. Now in saying that I know Bob Merkel bred Dixielands Luke alot, and Luke produced some good trial dogs but most of his progeny are scattered all over Iowa Hunting homes, as good classy gundogs. To me most good dogs will adjust to the cover they are hunting. When breeding Luke Bob will tell you as he has many, that Luke threw the birdog and depending on what type of female you bred him to thats what you were going to get in the run dept. Look at the parents they will tell you most about what you want to know.

Chip

ohiogsp · Post by **ohiogsp** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 12:12 am

This dog of mine is about a 150 yard dog. I totally agree look at the parents. I know my dog did not get his range from Rusty purely on the fact he was a NFC. My dog got it's range from the parents.

ohiogsp · Post by **ohiogsp** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 12:54 am

Lvrgsp, I just believe there are close working litters and there are big running litters. Some of the close ones might range a little more and some of the big ones might not be AA dogs but they are different litters in general. If I want a close dog I pick the litter for one and if I want a FT dog I pick the litter for one. I wanted a bigger dog a couple years ago and I got one but I picked it that way look at the pedigree at the bottom of my post. I did not expect this dog to be a test dog. I also don't think she could be shortened up to a range under 150 yards. Without totally distroying the dog. I don't know the specifics on the litters you are talking about but do believe there are different types of litters.

volraider · Post by **volraider** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 1:04 am

LVRGSP, I love Cecil dogs so much I have 2 Ruger pups laying around in the kennel right now. Neither one of them will run under 100 yards and they are 8 months old. I wouldn't trade either pup because I like a little go in them but Will said he wanted a 40-60 yard dog that will quarter.

If this is what I wanted then I would be looking at different bloodlines. I really don't know what bloodlines I would look at but I'm sure someone out there has or knows someone that has this type of dog. If I was dead set on 40-60 yard dog that would quarter I would be checking out some of those all-age spinones(Ha! Ha!) That's a joke!!!! Everyone know's there not a spinone at there that will run that big!!!!!!!!!

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 1:47 am

Breed for run, train for range

OMG - If I never hear anybody use the word "run" ever again in reference to a bird dog it will be too soon. Breed for run if you're trying to win at the track. Breed for application if you want to find birds and win trials.

larue · Post by **larue** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 4:37 am

lvrgsp,my website was hosted by a company a cousin worked for,as he left the company I lost my free site.
As a guy who breeds a litter every four years or so,and an am trialer,hunter I see little reason to pay to have a website.
I am in this for my enjoyment,not to make any money on it.
I have posted quite a number of pics on this websites album,it is easy to use,and it is free,so it works for me.
As far as range,I own dogs who will hunt at 70 yards and dogs who will hunt at 1/2 mile plus out west,the thing that we forget is that the vast majority of people want to see there pointing dogs all of the time.
It is no accident that the navhda pups bring a much higher price than the trial pups,as the average hunter wants an much closer working dog
than the hardcore guy does.

Will · Post by **Will** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 9:10 am

Alright!!! Now the good feedback is coming guys!!! I'm not stuck on any bloodline of GSP!! At the date of the original post, these are the three I had learned of in my area and had been given recommendations on. I agree that all of these dogs with high prey drive will want to push MY envelope of that 60ish yard range, but trust me guys, its essential to the environment in which I hunt. Ohiogsp, you are right. We hunt heavy cover, creeks and waterways mostly. Its an open invitation for birds to run. I want a deliberate working dog that will work through the heavy cover thoroughly. These birds get up underneath the creek banks and bury in sometimes, other times they'll get on top and run like mad.

I will definately see the parents of any pup I buy work in the field before purchasing.

Thanks for all of the info guys. I just don't believe that close working shorthairs don't exist. Whether it be by bloodline, or by a litter out of two close working dogs, I believe they are out there.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 10:17 am

Will,

I didn't mean to sound blunt. That's just my personality.

The lines that you listed are great choices. Look, I hunt woodcock with AA EPs. It's less about the range than it is about the quality of bird dog that you get. By quality, I mean nose, desire, retrieving instinct and intelligence. A well bred bird dog will hunt objectives. He will learn where the birds are and hunt for them there. If the birds are in tight cover that's where a smart dog will search for them.

I had a Wrenegade GSP pup that I put a NAVHDA UT title on at 11 mos. He was also a NSTRA CH. and yet he would run huge from a horse. He knew the difference. He was a very intelligent GSP with all of the hunting traits that we look for.

Take it for what it's worth but my recommendation would be to worry less about the range and focus on the traits that make GSPs the truly great dogs they are. Look for a pup that comes from parents with great noses, pointing instinct and intelligence. Range is a non-issue IMO.

Best of luck.

bondoron · Post by **bondoron** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 12:21 pm

GsPJustin wrote:I still can't figure out why people want close working pointers....

When I was looking for my pup I wanted a close working dog. The reason is I hunt Grouse 99% of the time in thick cover. If my dog isn't always in sight than she has to hold point on a spooky bird while I try to make it to her. Alot of Grouse will only hold for so long, they don't run they fly. And yes I found exactly what I was looking for. If she can not see me she will come back pretty quick until she spots me again. Everybody has their own way of hunting and what they look for and want in a dog.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 12:35 pm

Ron,

Your post reminded me of a couple more lines that may be of interest to Will, both in WI:

Sharp Shooter Kennel
http://www.sharpshooterskennel.com

Shooting Starr Kennel
http://bdarn.com/shootingstarr/

Both of these kennels have produced a lot of NAVHDA dogs.

GsPJustin · Post by **GsPJustin** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 1:57 pm

If you want a dog thats going to run 30-60 yards, and quarter get a lab. Or a spaniel. Not what GSPs are made for. Thats just my honest opinion. The aren't made to run 500+ yards either but people breed for that so...

However, I do agree with Yawallac 100%.

Bondoron,

When I was looking for my pup I wanted a close working dog. The reason is I hunt Grouse 99% of the time in thick cover. If my dog isn't always in sight than she has to hold point on a spooky bird while I try to make it to her. Alot of Grouse will only hold for so long, they don't run they fly. And yes I found exactly what I was looking for. If she can not see me she will come back pretty quick until she spots me again. Everybody has their own way of hunting and what they look for and want in a dog.

Actually, I have watched, and hunted behind FT dogs in the middle of some of the thickest forest I have ever been in. They didn't range that far, but they never were under 40 yards.

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 2:29 pm

Doug,
I agree with you 100% I said it wrong, my apologies to the chef.

Ohio,
You are right litters vary in there breeding. Look for what you want in the parents.

lvrgsp

volraider · Post by **volraider** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 3:03 pm

Here is a bunch of Gsp links

http://www.cbel.com/german_shorthaired_pointer_dogs/

http://www.bdarn.com/gsp/

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 12:23 am

I agree with you 100% I said it wrong, my apologies to the chef.

That's funny! I knew what you meant - I'm on the accellerated course to becoming an old curmudgeon.

Good points you guys! I firmly believe a well bred bird dog with tons of natural instinct will adapt to its situation and handler. IMO, the valuation of huge "run" and 12 o'clock tails over application and substance has lessened the bird dog in some of our lines of pointing dogs.

TrueBlu Shorthairs · Post by **TrueBlu Shorthairs** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:44 am

You absolutely cannot generalize about range and lines, particularly when you give such a broad range within lines, Moesgaard, Greif, etc. One man's Moesgaard line dog is another's total outcross. Look at breeders who breed dogs you like. Personally, I would find it hard to believe Bob Merkel would sell a dog to someone wanting a porch sweeper. My closest working pup wouldn't work for you. In fact, the closest working pup I have ever seen wouldn't work for you. Find a breeder, then tell him exactly what you expect. So few lines of GSPs will work consistently as close as what you say you want. 40 yards is underfoot in most areas. The recommendation of a flusher was right on IMHO. But, look hard and do a ton of talking to breeders in your area. You may find the perfect GSP for your needs.

ohiogsp · Post by **ohiogsp** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 10:57 am

Look at a started dog. You "are" looking for the extremely close dog. With a pup you will not know what you are going to get until later in the dogs life.

Will · Post by **Will** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 4:41 pm

I will be visiting my first breeder/kennel, 6R Upland Kennel in Iowa, on Saturday to hunt over some dogs he will be having pups with this spring.

The man says he has been training his shorthairs to hunt 30-40yds in heavy cover for more than 15yrs and the pups they're throwing are becoming more and more naturally close ranging dogs. They are Moesgaard linebred dogs. The dogs are large bodied shorthairs - males running around 70lbs and deep chested (personal choice I happen to love). They are very eager to please and well mannered with excellent temperment and biddability. One 11mo old he's hunting this season has had better than 175 pheasants shot over him already....pointed every one of supposedly. So I will see. I'm anxious to hunt over these dogs.

Next on the "tour" will be Bob Merkel for sure. I owe it to myself to see what this man has to offer.

DGFavor - I love the point that a well bred birdog with tons of natural instinct will adapt to its situation and handler!!!

I believe the "close working" GSP is a double edged sword. They are a pointing breed with a naturally high prey drive, thus they will search hard for birds...that's awesome. On the other side, they are trainable and adaptable. By picking a pup out of the right litter, not necessarily bloodline, I think MY close working shorthair is out there and obtainable.

I appreciate all of the great input guys. And by all means, keep it coming. I am months from picking out a pup and I'm going to be very careful about it.

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 7:31 am

Will, you have received a lot of good advice and direction. Seeing that you are in Iowa, you should do yourself a BIG favor and give Steve Ries a call at Top Gun GSPs. He is the salt of the earth with some OUTSTANDING shorthairs. http://www.topgungsps.com/ You mentioned "I love the point that a well bred birdog with tons of natural instinct will adapt to its situation and handler!" You will find that with Top Gun.

They are located in Central City, Iowa - Phone: 319-350-4875

Will · Post by **Will** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 10:11 am

Update - Bob Merkel will not work his dogs for me. He his off the list.

Topgun gets $750-$1000 for pups - out of my price range. Still under consideration if others don't work out though.

Boone Valley Kennels is on the list and will get a visit. Both he and 6R will hunt work the dogs planned for breedings for me.

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 11:16 am

Will, I commend you for doing your research and you are right...if you can not see the dogs work, I do not care who it is, they would be off my list as well. I am taking my male out Friday for that exact reason...good work.

Side note, do not let the price of a pup (within your budget/ a few hundred dollars) scare you off. The initial price of a pup is only a teardrop in the ocean of your investment. I have NOTHING to do with Top Gun or any of the other kennels you listed, but if the quality is there, it is worth the price. In life I am a firm believer in you get what you pay for. The extra 250-500 spread over 10-12 years is really nothing!

Keep us posted and we are all here to help!

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 11:41 am

I am going to take a guess, having worked dogs with Bob myself and having been there when he worked them for customers, that he is not interested in trying to sell you a 40 yd. shorthair.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 11:52 am

I am going to take a guess, having worked dogs with Bob myself and having been there when he worked them for customers, that he is not interested in trying to sell you a 40 yd. shorthair.

That would be my guess as well. Bob's reputation speaks for itsself. It seems to me that you are looking for something that doesn't exist. Perhaps seeing some quality dogs will help you realize that. It may also help you to realize that a 40 yard dog is not what you really want anyway.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 12:05 pm

http://www.boykinspaniel.org/

Regards,

ssjetset · Post by **ssjetset** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 12:17 pm

more important than range is how honest the dog is, the dog can knock birds at 30 yards just as well as a quarter mile, thats a result of training, nothing better than having a dog that is out of site because of cover or whatever and KNOWING that dog will do the right thing. Skip Shooting Starr, Jim gets a grand for a pup and is out of your range, try a DK out of german lines like Keljer or King kennels both in Illinois, I think that is more what you are looking for.

Will · Post by **Will** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 1:01 pm

LOL at you guys and your boykin spaniel and lab posts!!! I DON'T WANT A WATERDOG OR RETRIEVER. LOL....but thanks for trying to tell me what I really want.

I agree that Bob Merkel may well be the most knowledgeable GSP man in the country. I'm just not buying one of his dogs. Even though he won't work them for me, I don't believe they are suited for me.

Now, I think maybe the DK's mentioned by SSJETSET is a good avenue to explore. I've already talked to Kings Kennels among others.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 1:13 pm

Yawn....

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 1:30 pm

Will,

Insulting people that are honestly trying to help is bad form.

You've asked for a 30-40 yard GSP. That's near to being a contradiction in terms.

So, people are trying, with varying degrees of obliqueness, to say that if you insist on a GSP, you're going to be very prone to ending up being unhappy and frustrated and making a GSP unhappy and frustrated.

Take it for what it's worth.

volraider · Post by **volraider** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 4:04 pm

If the King Kennel DK'S you are talking about is Willy Engelking then you are looking at the wrong breeder. Willy likes his dogs with fire in them and most will run big with high-high prey drive.

I think you could come closer looking at some of the show lines that hunt. These dogs seem to be a little bigger and with a gait a little more like a rocking horse instead of a flat back line while they run.

My opinion for what it's worth.

GsPJustin · Post by **GsPJustin** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 4:51 pm

I don't think show lines will do anything. Its going to have to be the individual dog.

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:04 pm

You need to be a little careful Justin professing to know what's best for the breed. What may be best for you may not be best for the rest of us. I believe one of the true remaining beauties of the GSP as a breed is that individuals of all tastes and hunting desires can find a dog to fit their bill. I hope that Will finds the GSP of his desires just like the rest of us - failure to do so would be a failure of the breed IMO.

Post by **pear** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:18 pm

VERY WELL SAID !!!!!! Thanks Doug, ..."pear"

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:48 pm

Doug, how would breeding GSPs that range 30-40 yards be good for the breed? Just curious.

I agree with you Justin.

Razor · Post by **Razor** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 6:11 pm

I bet Bob had a good laugh when you called him, and told him what you are looking for. If you want a close ranging pointer look at a French Britt.