AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use
Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use
The underlying study can be found here, http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Ad ... ne.0102722 , since someone had said they were looking for it.
Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use
Thank you.Nutmeg247 wrote:The underlying study can be found here, http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Ad ... ne.0102722 , since someone had said they were looking for it.
It is a better study than as reported by the press, who apparently only read the Conclusion, which bears little resemblance to the study and is clearly biased. I urge everyone to read the study.
- Luminary Setters
- Rank: Senior Hunter
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- Luminary Setters
- Rank: Senior Hunter
- Posts: 168
- Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:41 am
- Location: Spring City, Tennessee
AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use
Brazo, not paranoid, just a realist. How many of the undecided 47 million viewers had warm fuzzy feelings after that interview. And anyone out there that thinks there isn't a movement out there to ban collars and hunting for that matter, think again.
Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use
I agree this is not paranoia. I live in the bay area of California and believe me when I say I have to be very careful regarding training my hunting dog. The looks I get when I explain that I will be hunting her are quite disturbing.
Last week (before the AKC news story broke) I was out for a walk with a friend when the subject of e-collars came up. The first thing out of her mouth was "I think they should be ban, they are cruel"....I went on to explain that in the right hands they were a good training tool but I rather doubt I got anywhere in convincing her of this. My point is that the general public is aware of them and opinions are being formed (even without AKC opening there big mouth). Now granted I am probably in the most liberal place in the US so no doubt worse here than anywhere but I still believe that the use of e-collars is under the radar of many.
Last week (before the AKC news story broke) I was out for a walk with a friend when the subject of e-collars came up. The first thing out of her mouth was "I think they should be ban, they are cruel"....I went on to explain that in the right hands they were a good training tool but I rather doubt I got anywhere in convincing her of this. My point is that the general public is aware of them and opinions are being formed (even without AKC opening there big mouth). Now granted I am probably in the most liberal place in the US so no doubt worse here than anywhere but I still believe that the use of e-collars is under the radar of many.
- Brazosvalleyvizslas
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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use
Mentioning the AKC with Anti Hunting groups is just that, PARANOID. It certainly is not "realistic".
Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use
A week ago I would not have 'realistically' thought that the AKC would put a representative on a national news show to explain that ecollars are bad.
Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use
Nearly every AKC employee I have encountered were non-hunters, knowing where and how they recruit I think it more than reasonable that a good number are opposed to hunting, and some of those actively anti-hunting.
I will bet a good pocket knife that the VP representing AKC on Fox has never held a gun and if not anti-hunting, would never fight for us.
My assumptions are based on some experience. Remember paranoids have enemies that are out to get them.
I will bet a good pocket knife that the VP representing AKC on Fox has never held a gun and if not anti-hunting, would never fight for us.
My assumptions are based on some experience. Remember paranoids have enemies that are out to get them.
Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use
Funny thing not being mentioned is that the food trained group (c) showed more whining (begging) and the highest cortisol (stress) levels
Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use
Here is a follow up story
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/debate-surg ... ollar-use/
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/debate-surg ... ollar-use/
- Luminary Setters
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AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use
Brazo, obviously I'm doing a poor communicating, because that was not the association I was trying to convey.
I will try to clarify...
Years back people warned that one day we would have to fight, and fight hard, to keep our right to keep and bare arms. Those people were called paranoid. Then later I heard a few people warn that we will have to fight to keep our freedoms to hunt. Those people were called paranoid. A few of these paranoids formed organizations and watch groups to keep other paranoids and conspiracy theorists informed and lobby on their behalf.
The inference was that there are groups out there working against many of the individual facets that make upland bird hunting and gun dog sports. Those that don't believe these movements exist are either in denial or have their head in the sand.
Knowing that only one executive officer in the Manhattan office is opposed to e-collar use makes me feel much better.
I will try to clarify...
Years back people warned that one day we would have to fight, and fight hard, to keep our right to keep and bare arms. Those people were called paranoid. Then later I heard a few people warn that we will have to fight to keep our freedoms to hunt. Those people were called paranoid. A few of these paranoids formed organizations and watch groups to keep other paranoids and conspiracy theorists informed and lobby on their behalf.
The inference was that there are groups out there working against many of the individual facets that make upland bird hunting and gun dog sports. Those that don't believe these movements exist are either in denial or have their head in the sand.
Knowing that only one executive officer in the Manhattan office is opposed to e-collar use makes me feel much better.
Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use
chrokeva wrote:Here is a follow up story
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/debate-surg ... ollar-use/
not a follow up that was a couple days before the fox interview
Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use
jiml wrote:chrokeva wrote:Here is a follow up story
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/debate-surg ... ollar-use/
not a follow up that was a couple days before the fox interview
ahhh you are right my apologies.
Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use
Well said Luminary, and 100% correct!! I am not sure that only 1 is opposed to e-collar use...
Luminary Setters wrote:Brazo, obviously I'm doing a poor communicating, because that was not the association I was trying to convey.
I will try to clarify...
Years back people warned that one day we would have to fight, and fight hard, to keep our right to keep and bare arms. Those people were called paranoid. Then later I heard a few people warn that we will have to fight to keep our freedoms to hunt. Those people were called paranoid. A few of these paranoids formed organizations and watch groups to keep other paranoids and conspiracy theorists informed and lobby on their behalf.
The inference was that there are groups out there working against many of the individual facets that make upland bird hunting and gun dog sports. Those that don't believe these movements exist are either in denial or have their head in the sand.
Knowing that only one executive officer in the Manhattan office is opposed to e-collar use makes me feel much better.
Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use
Brazo. Not to long ago in PA there was a movement against Puppy Mills. There were already sufficient regulations to take care of any issues they were looking to control. Instead of upholding the current regulations, they rewrote the entire canine bill to suit them. AKC and many other groups did very little to fight against it with the opinion that is what just to take care of those Puppy Mills. When I would speak to sporting groups about changes coming everyone had the opinion that it wouldn't affect them so they were concerned. Anyone that has a licensed kennel in PA can attest to the costs and pain it caused. It was like Obama care, most didn't know what was contained until after the laws were written. When they started enforcing the laws every one opened their eyes to reality. Most licensed kennels had to make changes of some kind. After thousands of dollars of upgrades and incessant harassment to conform, many went out of business. Yes it took care of the breeders but it also cost many boarding and training kennels hundreds and thousands of dollars.
Excuse us for being a little paranoid but in this day and age of taking more and more, we need to nip these things in the bud and stop it before it starts.
Excuse us for being a little paranoid but in this day and age of taking more and more, we need to nip these things in the bud and stop it before it starts.
- Brazosvalleyvizslas
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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use
I guess I must have bigger issues to worry about. Like trimming nails, cleaning kennels and conditioning.
I will continue conditioning a young dog this morning to the ecollar without any help from the AKC or any other group and I cant even see how they could possibly influence that.
Sorry, but paranoid is the proper word here. I will say it again, the average dog owner probably has no use with ecollars so why does it come as such a shock that a group that caters to the average owner comes out with such a statement?
I will continue conditioning a young dog this morning to the ecollar without any help from the AKC or any other group and I cant even see how they could possibly influence that.
Sorry, but paranoid is the proper word here. I will say it again, the average dog owner probably has no use with ecollars so why does it come as such a shock that a group that caters to the average owner comes out with such a statement?
Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use
The average owner is not really the group paying the bills either. It's hard enough to get the pet owner to even complete registrations when they purchase a pup from a breeder. The breeders, the trainers and handlers, the people who compete in whatever venue, etc. are the people they are hurting, and these are the folks that are paying for services. I can think of 3 groups at least in the dog groups AKC has that have been hurt by this idiotic interview.
Julia
Julia
Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:I guess I must have bigger issues to worry about. Like trimming nails, cleaning kennels and conditioning.
I will continue conditioning a young dog this morning to the ecollar without any help from the AKC or any other group and I cant even see how they could possibly influence that.
Sorry, but paranoid is the proper word here. I will say it again, the average dog owner probably has no use with ecollars so why does it come as such a shock that a group that caters to the average owner comes out with such a statement?
- Brazosvalleyvizslas
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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use
Maybe you could enlighten me how this interview hurts me as I stated, I will continue to train as I always have and will not feel any pressure from this interview. I am not defending it but I don't see how it would affect trainers, breeders or any other serious dog owners.JuliaH wrote:The average owner is not really the group paying the bills either. It's hard enough to get the pet owner to even complete registrations when they purchase a pup from a breeder. The breeders, the trainers and handlers, the people who compete in whatever venue, etc. are the people they are hurting, and these are the folks that are paying for services. I can think of 3 groups at least in the dog groups AKC has that have been hurt by this idiotic interview.
Julia
Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:I guess I must have bigger issues to worry about. Like trimming nails, cleaning kennels and conditioning.
I will continue conditioning a young dog this morning to the ecollar without any help from the AKC or any other group and I cant even see how they could possibly influence that.
Sorry, but paranoid is the proper word here. I will say it again, the average dog owner probably has no use with ecollars so why does it come as such a shock that a group that caters to the average owner comes out with such a statement?
- AZ Brittany Guy
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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use
Its just like the "gun control" issue. It is a training tool that works! It all depends on who is using it. As usual someone wants to "throw the baby out with the bath water". If you are going to abuse a dog there are plenty of ways to do it without using an ecollar.gonehuntin' wrote:So, apparently the AKC would rather have us return to bull whips, lead quirts, electric hotlines, cattle prods, shotguns and ratshot rather than the ecollar. If that misguided organization possible thinks that banning ecollars will stop the complex and extensive training of field trial animals, they are oh, so badly mistaken. Perhaps what they should consider is a ban on all sporting dog trials and tests. That'll teach us.
- AZ Brittany Guy
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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use
Its letting the Head of the Camel into your tent.Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:Maybe you could enlighten me how this interview hurts me as I stated, I will continue to train as I always have and will not feel any pressure from this interview. I am not defending it but I don't see how it would affect trainers, breeders or any other serious dog owners.JuliaH wrote:The average owner is not really the group paying the bills either. It's hard enough to get the pet owner to even complete registrations when they purchase a pup from a breeder. The breeders, the trainers and handlers, the people who compete in whatever venue, etc. are the people they are hurting, and these are the folks that are paying for services. I can think of 3 groups at least in the dog groups AKC has that have been hurt by this idiotic interview.
Julia
Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:I guess I must have bigger issues to worry about. Like trimming nails, cleaning kennels and conditioning.
I will continue conditioning a young dog this morning to the ecollar without any help from the AKC or any other group and I cant even see how they could possibly influence that.
Sorry, but paranoid is the proper word here. I will say it again, the average dog owner probably has no use with ecollars so why does it come as such a shock that a group that caters to the average owner comes out with such a statement?
Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use
The thing I see is that AKC is moving more and more toward the pet people, and those of us who are participating in events, breeding, etc. are being pushed to the side in the rush to make everyone else happy. No, that interview probably won't do immediate damage, other than being a sore spot. But what about down the road...
I don't know you, but let's pretend you are a pro trainer for the conversation. Someone has just brought you their newest love... a bird dog pup that is the light of their life.... to train. So the conversation begins and you explain how the training is going to go, including the fact that, before you are done, you will move from a simple collar and check cord to an e-collar for correction when the dog is out in the field and understands its basic commands. New puppy owner hugs the pup and runs off in a huff because you might "shock" the dog into submission.
I am no pro. But I have had these conversations with people leaving my place with a new pup. They want to know about training, but they worry about the use of an e-collar (and these conversations began a few years ago). So, I take the time to explain, and if needed, to show them that no one is hurting the dog. Then they are ok with it I am retraining a rescue lady right now
Julia
I don't know you, but let's pretend you are a pro trainer for the conversation. Someone has just brought you their newest love... a bird dog pup that is the light of their life.... to train. So the conversation begins and you explain how the training is going to go, including the fact that, before you are done, you will move from a simple collar and check cord to an e-collar for correction when the dog is out in the field and understands its basic commands. New puppy owner hugs the pup and runs off in a huff because you might "shock" the dog into submission.
I am no pro. But I have had these conversations with people leaving my place with a new pup. They want to know about training, but they worry about the use of an e-collar (and these conversations began a few years ago). So, I take the time to explain, and if needed, to show them that no one is hurting the dog. Then they are ok with it I am retraining a rescue lady right now
Julia
- Brazosvalleyvizslas
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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use
AZ, I guess I can respect that thought.
Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use
I have an aunt that is big time against E-Collar's. Generally if I am out and about somewhere with my dog I have it on him whether I think I will need to use it or not. Better safe than sorry. I have to be very careful when I am around her, I've tried letting her put it in her wrist to see just how light of stimulation I use, tried explaining that in hunting scenarios it is literally life or death if he were to happen to choose a hen that flies over a nearby highway, that it is an extension of the leash, that I've trained him to it, that I am careful when I actually push the button, or showing her that he literally jumps for joy when I grab the collar to put on him. On the rare occassions that I can temporarily convince her that they are not that bad when used right, then the argument turns to that I have it on too tight and it's choking him... ughh just can't win with those fluffy small dog owners that bark non stop, know no commands, and will bolt out when the front door is opened.
- gonehuntin'
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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use
chrokeva wrote:Here is a follow up story
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/debate-surg ... ollar-use/
That is as biased as the first report.
Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use
Another website that we should be aware of... this topic needs to stay alive and well, and AKC needs to continue to hear from us!
http://www.pettpartnership.com/
http://www.pettpartnership.com/
- AZ Brittany Guy
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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use
This just came in from a pointing dog pro in Kansas.
http://www.pettpartnership.com/
An organization working on our behalf! Its a start!
http://www.pettpartnership.com/
http://www.pettpartnership.com/
An organization working on our behalf! Its a start!
http://www.pettpartnership.com/
Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use
http://www.linkedin.com/groups/Shock-Co ... zbj65G1mw1
The war on E-Collars continue, Comparing to the Cigarette industry now.
Think this will just go away? Better think again and start working to protect it now.
The war on E-Collars continue, Comparing to the Cigarette industry now.
Think this will just go away? Better think again and start working to protect it now.
- Devilscreekw
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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use
Don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but E collars were recently outlawed, along with pet containment collar systems in the province of Quebec Canada.
Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use
AKC is going to meet with the folks from PETT Partnership in December at the Eukanuba Nationals in Florida, so the Conference call in October must have gone well. We need to support PETT Partnership and the companies in it because they sure are getting some folks' attention!!
- legallyblonde
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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use
Not true:Devilscreekw wrote:Don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but E collars were recently outlawed, along with pet containment collar systems in the province of Quebec Canada.
http://pointingdogblog.blogspot.com/201 ... uebec.html
- Devilscreekw
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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use
Thank You for clearing that up.....some relieflegallyblonde wrote:Not true:Devilscreekw wrote:Don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but E collars were recently outlawed, along with pet containment collar systems in the province of Quebec Canada.
http://pointingdogblog.blogspot.com/201 ... uebec.html
Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use
It's similar to global warming tactically imo. Because of the willingness of opponents of e-collars to exact a high professional cost against anyone saying they are beneficial if used properly, it's not surprising that Vet Behaviorists, for instance, pretty uniformly don't support their use. Who wants to be called a sadist and denied tenure or excluded from conferences because they support "shock?" So, tactically, you can get a large number of professional organizations to say they oppose e-collars. Plus, how many vet behaviorists hunt, much less support hunting?shets114 wrote:http://www.linkedin.com/groups/Shock-Co ... zbj65G1mw1
The war on E-Collars continue, Comparing to the Cigarette industry now.
Think this will just go away? Better think again and start working to protect it now.
-
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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use
The AKC has turned into a gay club.All the old breeders have died and it is now totally run by kooks.The only reason to reg.with them is if you want to show dogs.The American Field is the oldest dog registry in the country and actually furnished the AKC with their records when AKC started up.I dual reg all my bird dogs it is a great registry that almost solely concentrates on bird dogs.They publish a weekly paper The American Field that covers all bird dog trials.It is a great registry if it suits your needs.
Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use
Gamekeeper, if you feels this way, why dual register? Just stick with AF and be done with it.