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Help with GSP blood lines

Help with GSP blood lines

Postby MSU Aggie » Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:07 am

I have been training a few dogs here and there over the past decade and think I want to step into the breeding world a little. I currently have two GSPs and I would like to stay with them. Has anyone done any research on the GSP lines that they are willing to share or are there any good sources I should look into? I will admit I'm hoping someone has done the leg work with the research so I don't have to. I'm not looking to breed my current two GSPs but want to make informed decisions while moving forward. Any help is appreciated
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Re: Help with GSP blood lines

Postby greg jacobs » Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:00 pm

FT, Navhda, Nstra foot hunting? You have been here quite a while. All the real gsp people are gone. Some of them might answer PM's I have done searches here and read quite a bit of good things from several years back. I've got a dog from Nuke it, and one from Sam Man
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Re: Help with GSP blood lines

Postby Tooling » Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:44 pm

I like the "Rusty" lines.

My current shorthair is a Rusty x Baroque dog. Best shorthair I've ever had. Princes Quality Gun Dogs in Kansas.

If I was shopping today I'd either go back to John Prince, Wildrose, Dunfur (if Dan's still breeding), or I'd look up VonZeppelin on here (Ted) to see what he's doing. There are very good shorthairs in the Southwest but of course, it all depends on the type of dog you like.
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Re: Help with GSP blood lines

Postby MSU Aggie » Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:53 pm

Thanks guys, my current dogs are from NAVHDA lines. With some field trial in there as well. I've been going through some old post trying to learn ad much as I can.
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Re: Help with GSP blood lines

Postby cjhills » Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:22 pm

Basically, it will boil down to your personal likes and dislikes. Nobody on a forum can help you with that.
From a financial point of view the highest priced GSPs are the top show lines, Second are foot hunting family dogs and last are field trial dogs. Most buyers will be looking for a 200 yd or under dog.
If you are looking to improve the breed it probably will not happen.
You need to look at a lot of dogs and decide what you really want in a dog. Best case is one on one in a big area with wild birds. training is not important on this dog. What she does naturally is important. Listen carefully to what the breeder tells you. Try to remember everything you can and decide later what you disagree with.
Do not waste a lot of time on events unless you are breeding dogs for that event. Some really bad dogs have been trained to compete in trials and tests. You are probably going to have to start with a puppy because there are very few breeding quality females available. You probably need several puppies because most won't make if you are as critical as you need to be.
Avoid the tight line breeders, a lot of bad things pop up from recessive genes.
Be aware that the average breeder last four years. It is a tough business, But if you really like the dogs you are breeding are scrupulously honest with your clients it is very rewarding and exciting plus you get to play with the puppies.
If you would like info on some of the lines I am familiar with you can PM.......Cj
Last edited by cjhills on Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Help with GSP blood lines

Postby Tooling » Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:12 am

cjhills wrote:Basically, it will boil down to your personal likes and dislikes. Nobody on a forum can help you with that.
From a financial point of view the highest priced GSPs are the top show lines, Second are foot hunting family dogs and last are field trial dogs. Most buyers will be looking for a 200 yd or under dog.
If you are looking to improve the breed it probably will not happen.
You need to look at a lot of dogs and decide what you really want in a dog. Best case is one on one in a big area with wild birds. training is not important on this dog. What she does naturally is important. Listen carefully to what the breeder tells you. Try to remember everything you can and decide later what you disagree with.
Do not waste a lot of time on events unless you are breeding dogs for that event. Some really bad dogs have been trained to compete in trials and tests. You are probably going to have to start with a puppy because there are very few breeding quality females available. You probably need several puppies because most won't make if you are as critical as you need to be.
Avoid the tight line breeders, a lot of bad things pop up from recessive genes.
Be aware that the average breeder last four years. It is a tough business, But if you really like the dogs you are breeding are unscrupulously honest with your clients it is very rewarding and exciting plus you get to play with the puppies.
If you would like info on some of the lines I am familiar with you can PM.......Cj


CJ - do you know if LD has been rearing its ugly head or whether it's been seemingly contained?
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Re: Help with GSP blood lines

Postby greg jacobs » Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:02 am

I apologize. There are still some shorthair people around.
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Re: Help with GSP blood lines

Postby greg jacobs » Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:20 am

With Rusty being back 35 years now. That puts him several generations back. I don't know of anyone that has been able to stay tight on line breeding Rusty. When you look at pedigrees even the breeders that started their lines with Rusty blood are pretty dituted by now.
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Re: Help with GSP blood lines

Postby greg jacobs » Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:50 am

By PM CJ? How are we all suppose to learn.
Jacob VD Westwind, and Odyssey's Sam Saint Max. Anything you could tell us about those two would be great. You could just give us the positive side so people don't get affended.
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Re: Help with GSP blood lines

Postby cjhills » Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:14 am

Tooling wrote:
cjhills wrote:Basically, it will boil down to your personal likes and dislikes. Nobody on a forum can help you with that.
From a financial point of view the highest priced GSPs are the top show lines, Second are foot hunting family dogs and last are field trial dogs. Most buyers will be looking for a 200 yd or under dog.
If you are looking to improve the breed it probably will not happen.
You need to look at a lot of dogs and decide what you really want in a dog. Best case is one on one in a big area with wild birds. training is not important on this dog. What she does naturally is important. Listen carefully to what the breeder tells you. Try to remember everything you can and decide later what you disagree with.
Do not waste a lot of time on events unless you are breeding dogs for that event. Some really bad dogs have been trained to compete in trials and tests. You are probably going to have to start with a puppy because there are very few breeding quality females available. You probably need several puppies because most won't make if you are as critical as you need to be.
Avoid the tight line breeders, a lot of bad things pop up from recessive genes.
Be aware that the average breeder last four years. It is a tough business, But if you really like the dogs you are breeding are unscrupulously honest with your clients it is very rewarding and exciting plus you get to play with the puppies.
If you would like info on some of the lines I am familiar with you can PM.......Cj


CJ - do you know if LD has been rearing its ugly head or whether it's been seemingly contained?

It seems like we do not hear much about LD anymore. We don't test for it anymore. Most of the bloodlines that had it are getting pretty far back. I only evr seen it in one dog, but it was nasty........Cj
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Re: Help with GSP blood lines

Postby Tooling » Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:18 am

greg jacobs wrote:With Rusty being back 35 years now. That puts him several generations back. I don't know of anyone that has been able to stay tight on line breeding Rusty. When you look at pedigrees even the breeders that started their lines with Rusty blood are pretty dituted by now.


That's correct - just some points of foundation reference to the type of dogs I like for someone who asked Greg. That implies someone digging into GSP lines will put in some of their own diligence - those two names will lead to much of the Americanized GSP lineage going straight back to Tell etc..

In your view "Rusty" blood is gone?

--
@CJ - I'm glad to hear that. Somehow my heart feels for the dog you've referenced..by all account, it's a horrific disease.
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Re: Help with GSP blood lines

Postby greg jacobs » Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:10 am

The FT people have always done a fair amount of outcrossing. Several of the Rusty offspring that you see on a lot of pedigrees were outcrosses. I'm sure no expert I just look at a lot of pedigrees trying to learn and I sure don't see anything tight anymore. With Rusty being no close than the 5th gen back to any pups now and probably back at 6 or 7 generations it's getting pretty thin. I see a lot tighter dogs from Hillhaven's Hustler. It's sad no one was able to keep Rusty tighter.
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Re: Help with GSP blood lines

Postby Tooling » Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:51 am

Appreciate that Greg - threw that at you because I know you're a pedigree hound. Like you, I am no expert and don't understand breeding all that much. I need to pull my past dogs pedigrees b/c I'm getting a little confused, I thought Hillhaven and Jigs dogs were tied to Rusty somehow. Strad Baroque is a Hustler dog and he's 3rd gen to my dog on the Sire's side and his Dam is a Von Zepp / Dunfur dog going back to Jigs, Rusty, Moesgaard, Rawhide, et al. (Also some I'm unfamiliar with) Certainly diluted by now and unless you keep up..well, you know.
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Re: Help with GSP blood lines

Postby greg jacobs » Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:38 pm

I think Rusty had a fair amount of Moesgaard.
Hillhaven's Hustler had Axel Von Wasserschling several time, Erick Von Enzstrand which is part Wildburg, and a bunch that I don't know.
Sometime I need to learn more of the old lines
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Re: Help with GSP blood lines

Postby art hubbard » Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:25 am

For anyone that is really interested in the GSP bloodlines you should get ahold of "The New Complete German Shorthaired Pointer" by Robert H. McKowen.
You should be able to get it from your book store or on Amazon. Sure will answer any questions about you have.
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Re: Help with GSP blood lines

Postby greg jacobs » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:39 am

Thanks. I was trying to remember the name. I found a used one and didn't get it a couple years ago. Then couldn't remember the name. I was searching here last night trying to find it.
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Re: Help with GSP blood lines

Postby Tooling » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:52 am

Greg, I pulled my pedigrees last night - yes Rusty's steeped in Moesgaard and is not closely tied to Hillhavens but for a few dogs here and there. As soon as I looked at the pedigrees I realized it was Fieldacres that was throwing my memory for a ride. Tell, appears to have been an import (Danish I think). Thanks for the reference Art, I think I'll pick up a copy.
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Re: Help with GSP blood lines

Postby cjhills » Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:23 am

Hillhaven's hustler was a accidental breeding between offspring of Eric V Enstrand. That is where the Wasserling came from. His COI was less than 2.
He does go to Kay v Wildburg a few times. He was definely not line bred past his dam and Sire.
He was bred to a very high number of females. so you can find almost anything you want. There were a lot of soft dogs and some genetic issues in some of his blood lines, but for producing consistent ,total package, trainable, natural foot hunting bird dogs his offspring could not be beat. Sam St. Max (Grandson) and Snip's Ticked off were two Of my favorites. I will likely breed the fifth generation female I have bred from my first Hustler bred Female this winter. she is A granddaughter of Odyssey Fritz.
I have owned or trained several Odyssey Fritz puppies. They were all bird dogs. All a bit on the hard headed side.......Cj
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Re: Help with GSP blood lines

Postby greg jacobs » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:03 pm

Cj,
Really appreciate you sharing a little. It's hard for many of us to get much info like that.
You have had a little experience with the Jacob VD Westwind lines what is your experience with the lines that have come from him. I've never had a dog from those lines but in looking for my last 2 dogs I really considered it.
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Re: Help with GSP blood lines

Postby Tooling » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:40 pm

I'll echo Greg's sentiment CJ, thanks for sharing. That's really great info. I really enjoy learning about the heavy hitters in the GSP world and learning what their nature was. I think I've read somewhere that Rusty had prey drive beyond belief and keeping him steady was an ongoing effort.
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Re: Help with GSP blood lines

Postby cjhills » Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:16 pm

I first became interested in HH when I acquired a Snip's Ticked Off grandson and a couple Sam St. Max pups. I also had two Cebourne's Shake Rattle and Roll and Cebourne's Murphy's bred dogs. So I was pretty well loaded with HH Dogs.
I spent a lot of time on the phone with Gary From West Wind. He has a very interesting web site and a lot of opinions on breeding. A very firm believer in line breeding.
He has not updated his Web Site for many years. He is definitely a expert on the Wasserschling, Hustleburg,Wyberg, Hustler and Pottsiepen dogs.
I just had a conversation with him a few weeks ago. I think he is doing mostly Frozen Siemen breeding from his old dogs now. Not sure of that.
I found all of the dogs from these lines to be very good, natural bird dogs. Many of the good foot hunting lines in the Midwest came from these dogs. I wish I would have kept a little more Snip's Ticked Off in my dogs.
I just sold a double Grand son of Jacob VD Westwind,who was owned by Sundance. They are pretty big in NAVHDA. I bought him as a puppy. He was a super bird dog, who naturally pointed ,retrieved , honored and was steady to wing, shot and fall. He was the easies dog to put a MH on that I ever had. I did not have any females left I could breed him with. he was five years old. His puppies are Doing very well in hunt test right now.
' Unfortunately there are some genetic issues in the Hustler lines. I won't
elaborate on that on here. But it is my opinion that when you breed as tight as they did with HH sooner or later the recessive genes will bite you. For that reason we went to some outcrosses. We have lost a little of our natural talent and have to train a little more. But we have eliminated some nagging issues.
Thanks........................Cj
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Re: Help with GSP blood lines

Postby rkappes » Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:03 am

I don't know anything about GSP lines, but I've heard this kennel produces some good dogs. I know they are big in NAVHDA and very successful. They produce some good lookin' dogs. http://sharpshooterskennel.com/
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Re: Help with GSP blood lines

Postby Sharon » Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:30 pm

Great read/info CJ. Thanks.

If I was going to buy another GSP I'd be going away across the country to Kansas and Blue Dawn kennels. Proven blood lines.
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Re: Help with GSP blood lines

Postby 3schwenk11 » Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:21 pm

I am also in the search for a new GSP puppy
wondering if anyone on here has had any interaction or history with the following kennels as I have narrowed my list (slightly) but would love any insight...
1. Top Gun Kennels Iowa
2. Sharp Shooters Kennel WI
3. Krecklau Shorthairs MI
4. Huntem Up Kennels KS
Please add any Kennel that you can strongly suggest that I might be missing and need to look into.

As always I appreciate everyones help
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Re: Help with GSP blood lines

Postby greg jacobs » Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:44 pm

Yeah, thanks Cj.
Snip'sTicked Off frozen semen is still available what shocked me was only frozen semen on Gamble's Rip-N-Logan, a direct son. I remember when he was young and it doesn't seem very long ago. Crystal Kennels did a AI breeding with Snip'sTicked Off a year or two ago.
What were the traits that you liked from Snip'sTicked Off.
Last edited by greg jacobs on Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Help with GSP blood lines

Postby greg jacobs » Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:47 pm

Holy smokes Sharon.
You would need a really fast 4 wheeler at this point to keep up with one of those. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Help with GSP blood lines

Postby Middlecreek » Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:16 pm

greg jacobs wrote:Holy smokes Sharon.
You would need a really fast 4 wheeler at this point to keep up with one of those. :lol: :lol: :lol:


Nahhhh, take your time getting there.... they will still be standing when you get there. Very natural, easy to train/break dogs from Bluedawn.
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Re: Help with GSP blood lines

Postby MSU Aggie » Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:54 pm

I'm very familiar with Clyde and Marilyn at sharpshooter kennels, one of my pups is out of a stud of there's. They produce some great dogs.
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Re: Help with GSP blood lines

Postby greg jacobs » Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:17 pm

Middlecreek wrote:
greg jacobs wrote:Holy smokes Sharon.
You would need a really fast 4 wheeler at this point to keep up with one of those. :lol: :lol: :lol:


Nahhhh, take your time getting there.... they will still be standing when you get there. Very natural, easy to train/break dogs from Bluedawn.


Just had to tease her a little about wanting a FT bred GSP

You can't help getting older, but you don't have to get old..
George Burns

Guess that's why I've got a couple big runners
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Re: Help with GSP blood lines

Postby Sharon » Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:40 pm

I had a GSP out of BlueMaxSpitfire v Grief , BMK's Call to Glory, BMK's Wild Child, once. Amazing dog. Would have been a champion if I hadn't run out of cash. :)

https://www.bluedawnkennels.com/fire.html
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Re: Help with GSP blood lines

Postby Middlecreek » Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:52 pm

Sharon wrote:I had a GSP out of BlueMaxSpitfire v Grief , BMK's Call to Glory, BMK's Wild Child, once. Amazing dog. Would have been a champion if I hadn't run out of cash. :)

https://www.bluedawnkennels.com/fire.html


Had a grandson of Fire, MRT's Bingo Buck.... spent his golden years of retirement hunting here in Nebraska, would take a hundred more like him!
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Re: Help with GSP blood lines

Postby JONOV » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:36 am

What are you looking for? Dogs that sell well? Dogs for one competition or another? It seems like some of the NAVHDA lines are really expensive. The DK route might be another worth checking out.
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Re: Help with GSP blood lines

Postby ezzy333 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:27 am

My GSP would come from Walnut Hill. Brenda and Rick have done more to advance a Dual Type dog than anyone else in the breed and in my feeble mind that is a must in any breed, the complete dog. They need to be rewarded for what they are doing.
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Re: Help with GSP blood lines

Postby greg jacobs » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:19 pm

rsz_20151218_123641-1-1.jpg
rsz_20151218_123641-1-1.jpg (96.29 KiB) Viewed 1150 times


Yup. My last is sired by Sam Man.
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Re: Help with GSP blood lines

Postby cjhills » Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:32 am

It is interesting that all of the duals come from Sam St. Max, mostly through Odyssey
Fritz. I think Odyssey GSPs have 8 or more Duals, most all from the same bloodlines as Walnut Hill. So there are a lot of duals in the Sam St. Max dogs
I have found these dogs to generally have good enough conformation to compete in the show ring and also naturally talented, tough minded bird dogs, that handled training very well...........Cj
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