The pup vs started dog debate

[FlyinSoLow]

In the market for a new hunting dog. Needs to dabble in pointing grouse and woodcock but also pick up ducks and geese. Honestly water work is minimum and usually is just off shore shots or farm ponds
Being able to play in versatility dog games would be a bonus! I love dog sports!
Husband was invited into some pheasant hunting group... not really sure about what that’s about but that’s another option.

I had labs in the past, ran hunt tests and enjoyed my every weekend training group. I’m dedicated and love working and watching dogs. I do NOT want another lab. I had three. After being plagued with health (heart) issues and aggression issues I’d like to get something different. My dogs were always field bred out of FC AFC/MH QAA sire and dams, so I bought from very reputable breeders... just plain bad luck.

My husband wants a puppy. We have three other dogs (a corgi heeler cross and two beagles) and a almost 6 yo son. He’s worried the dog won’t acclimate to our home unless he’s raised with everyone. I’m saying that’s false but would love to hear opinions.

Our dogs are inside when we are home, crates at night or bad weather, outside in 10 x 10 kennels if no one is home. I do not work... I just hunt fish show cutting horses and raise our son hubby works two days day shift two nights night shift then is off 4 days (rinse and repeat) so we seem to be home a lot these days!

I’m saying started dog, all my past dogs went to group (field) training and stayed with a pro for 3 months up to an entire year. But I’ve never had a pointer/versatility type. While finding a perfect fit won’t happen over night, it would be nice to have a dog to run and train and hunt reliably by next year... realistically if I got a pup tomorrow that’s an impossible task... I’d have so much to learn about hunting upland with a beginner dog it would be more ideal to have a dog that won’t need help every other move so I can watch and learn and handle... but maybe I’m over thinking it!

Breed, and gender to be decided. I know it won’t be a GWP or the like, the husband doesnt like the hair or look of the bearded face... sorry guys I know that seem like a good fit for us but the husband says no

[JONOV]

GWP seems to fit...you can ask around VDD breeders especially for a slick one. Mine is a very wooly GWP and he sheds way way less than any lab or GSP.

They seem to do well with the off switch in the house.

In your situation, I kind of agree with your husband...you want to be sure the dog socializes well with everyone from an early age, a started dog may or may not have issues that no one (including the seller) would know about til you get it home.

Regarding the hunting, they seem to pick that up pretty naturally. You don't have to do much to light that fuse.

[FlyinSoLow]

Great points. Husband could be persuaded to look at the VVD or GWP...
He doesn’t like the look of them. But he’s never seen them working, they are cooooool dogs!

There is a Breeder literally minutes from my house. I might contact then.
http://www.schwarzwaldkennels.com/ (Pm if anyone’s heard of them)

[Sharon]

"I’m saying started dog, all my past dogs went to group (field) training and stayed with a pro for 3 months up to an entire year. But I’ve never had a pointer/versatility type. While finding a perfect fit won’t happen over night, it would be nice to have a dog to run and train and hunt reliably by next year... realistically if I got a pup tomorrow that’s an impossible task."

Time to train it yourself Great programmes available now. You could have a young dog to enjoy on wild birds next Fall - not perfect but fun.

[FlyinSoLow]

Time to train it yourself Great programmes available now. You could have a young dog to enjoy on wild birds next Fall - not perfect but fun.

Thanks!

[Featherfinder]

In a started dog from a reputable trainer MOST concerns will be either addressed or conveyed. You should then have the advantage as per that saying, "What you see...."
It doesn't take long to get a pup working with a decent trainer. As mentioned, if you acquire a pup, it may not be finished by next season but then again, it can be fun watching the dog bloom. If you don't get trigger happy, your dog can only benefit/grow from the gems that come from it's first hunting season.
The challenge as I see it, is that you had Labs before and sometimes converting to a pointing breed can bring residual expectations. I've used this analogy before:
If you started golfing at 25-ish, are now 45-ish and are a bit of a hacker, you might decide to get some professional help. When the golf pro looks at you he says, "Oh boy....where do we start?" The challenge for the pro is that you have so many ingrained bad habits. It would have been better for him to have started you with the proper fundamentals many years before.
As such, the challenge in whether you get a started dog or a pup is whether you are willing to take a mentor or professional help from someone that is very good as a trainer and upland hunter. This person must know how to achieve what you aspire to have in your dog (or retain what your started dog already knows) AND how to teach you the critical handling skills to preserve what training has been instilled.
In my experience, the well-started or trained dog is something often considered by more mature hunters that don't have the luxury of time. Mother Nature can be harsh but Father Time is by far the nastiest "bleep" ever!

[bustingcover]

Started dog. From someone dealing with a puppy right now I was quickly reminded how much puppies suck. With a started dog you will have a real idea of what you're dealing with as far as temperament and working ability. You also will be able to hit the ground running without having to wait for the pup to grow up not to mention skipping the teething and potty training stage. As far as a dog not being able to acclimate to the household anyone who has been around enough dogs knows thats not true. A dog is either a fit or it isn't no matter what age.

Good luck with your decision.

[cjhills]

From a financial point of view a started dog is the best deal. You can buy a good year old started dog from $1500 to $3500 depending on training, breeding, sex and the kennel he comes from.
A puppy with a small genetic issue that has no affect on his health or ability but keeps him from being a breeding prospect can be a very good buy. Maybe a small navel hernia that was corrected or something of that nature. If there are any health or temperament issues they will generally be apparent by that age.
I have bought and sold many dogs of all ages and have never had a bonding issue. They were all GSPs who would sell there soul for attention..
A $1,000 puppy quickly becomes a $5000 started dog with food, vet care, professional training and all the other expenses.
On the other side puppies are Cute, fun and snuggly. House training generally goes easily and you can easily train the manners you want in a dog. This can be a bit harder on a kennel raised dog. But you can teach an old dog new tricks. Puppies and small children are sometimes not a good mix. Without proper training they can dominate a small kid.
I have had a few problems with Lab owners, who buy a pointing puppy, allowing them to put on too much weight.
Good luck with your choice. It is all good....................Cj

[FlyinSoLow]

Everyone has great points, thank you.

Ultimately we have a decision to make but I appreciate everyone’s insights!

[Gooseman07]

Great points. Husband could be persuaded to look at the VVD or GWP...
He doesn’t like the look of them. But he’s never seen them working, they are cooooool dogs!

There is a Breeder literally minutes from my house. I might contact then.
http://www.schwarzwaldkennels.com/ (Pm if anyone’s heard of them)

KYLE is a very good trainer and if my memory serves, there is a NAVHDA chapter pretty close to him as well. There is a wealth of knowledge in those chapters for the game and versatility. Good luck!

I personally don't like buying an older dogs then training them or having to have them become familiar with your house and rules. Been there, done that.

[Trekmoor]

I've bought started pups at ages ranging between 5 months and 11 months old. In my case what I wanted was a pup that had been well reared but which had received no training except for recall to voice at close distance and the rudiments of a retrieve at very close distance .....if a pup is going to be "messed up" then I want to do the messing myself !

All of those dogs became good working dogs and good pets. I have actually found pups that had previously lived in kennels far easier to house train than most 8 weeks old puppies.

I bought my cocker "Charlie" at 10 -11 months old. I'd asked for a pup that would do a simple recall and retrieve and the pup did those things. The only other thing I'd asked for was that the pup should have been allowed to free-hunt on rabbits ........the pup was brilliant at that, it took me months to steady the little devil ! He has been my favourite dog for almost 10 years now.

Bill T.

[setterpoint]

if you start with a pup thers shots vet bills food you can have some money invested by the time pups ready to hunt. then do you have the time to train you need birds and othere things .but be sure if you get a started dog that what the owner says is started is what you call started. i would ask to see the dog on birds and ask how far along the dog is in training . just some things to think about

[Robbw]

Last post was right on. There are various definitions of started. Some breeders drag a wing around a 12 week old pup and when the pup goes for it deems the dog "started". (Just look at the gundogbreeders website for started dogs and you will see examples of this. That is BS of course. Other breeders will train a dog to recall and whoa, will introduce the dog to birds and gunshot and show that they can point. That, to me, is a started dog. Making sure you are on the same page as a breeder selling a started dog is key.

I've had two gun dogs that I've hunted. The first was a Brittany that I rescued when she was 5. Turned out that she was close to a finished dog. Most recent dog is a French Brittany that's 3 and a half years old. She points, retrieves, heals, quarters etc. She does have some gun issues that I'm working through but again, this was more of a rescue. The point is that I didn't really want a puppy this last time but a started dog. I don't have the time or expertise to do what it takes and it's too easy to screw em up. I've bonded with both of these dogs and they are great. I'm all for a started dog if you are on the same page as the breeder.

[Steve007]

Great points. Husband could be persuaded to look at the VVD or GWP...
He doesn’t like the look of them. But he’s never seen them working, they are cooooool dogs!

There is a Breeder literally minutes from my house. I might contact then.
http://www.schwarzwaldkennels.com/ (Pm if anyone’s heard of them)

It is also possible, based on "not liking the look of them", that he's never seen a decently groomed wirehair. it does not take a great deal of time to groom a wirehair, but doing at least some improves their looks enormously. (You as a lady should know this. ) Some uncaring or unknowledgeable owners do none, and their dogs are pretty scruffy. Look at different photos of wirehairs on google. With very little work, you can have the look you like.

I have two. I groom them differently, but they are both very attractive dogs. They shed less than other breeds and pick up far fewer burrs.

I have, by the way, bought young adults of varying training levels as well as mostly-finished dogs in the past. If you put in the time and make a good selection, you will very happy with this method of obtaining a topflight dog. I have done both and have been far more than delighted with my dogs.

[FlyinSoLow]

My husband may very well jump on board because of the low shedding.

There is a Breeder and trainer who is very close to me that does the Navhda stuff whom several sources have now told me is an excellent resource. I plan to give them a call, explain what I’m looking for, all my goals, and allow them to guide me into the right dog or puppy.

[Sharon]

Do what I did. My husband went away for the weekend; when he he came home I had a GSP. He grew to love the dog. ( You know I'm kidding; I have a very easy going guy.)

[FlyinSoLow]

Do what I did. My husband went away for the weekend; when he he came home I had a GSP. He grew to love the dog. ( You know I'm kidding; I have a very easy going guy.)

Been there done that three dogs and two cutting horses later
Mines easy going to, and honestly ultimatly he lets me dog the animal stuff because I do the research and put a lot of effort into the buying and training. If it finds birds and keeps him from getting wet retrieving them, then he’s happy!

[oldbeek]

I love training my own dogs. Tried it 30 years ago and just produced outstanding hunting dogs. Was young and poor. No e collar, no launchers, just pigeons. Today I have 2 launchers, e-collar, and perfect start perfect finish program. Have a finished 4 yr Brittany, and 2, 9 month GSP,s in training. The Britt was hunting at 12 months and the 2 GSP,s will be hunting this winter. I want hold till shot out of my dogs. There is a personal satisfaction from training your own dog. Time, It takes 15 min of companionship time each day with a little obedience thrown in and 2 20 minute sessions per week with birds and launchers. Cost of launchers and perfect start DVD set? Buy them, do the training, then sell them. Bet you will keep them for the next dog. Just my 2 cents.

[bustingcover]

Great points. Husband could be persuaded to look at the VVD or GWP...
He doesn’t like the look of them. But he’s never seen them working, they are cooooool dogs!

There is a Breeder literally minutes from my house. I might contact then.
http://www.schwarzwaldkennels.com/ (Pm if anyone’s heard of them)

It is also possible, based on "not liking the look of them", that he's never seen a decently groomed wirehair. it does not take a great deal of time to groom a wirehair, but doing at least some improves their looks enormously. (You as a lady should know this. ) Some uncaring or unknowledgeable owners do none, and their dogs are pretty scruffy. Look at different photos of wirehairs on google. With very little work, you can have the look you like.

I have two. I groom them differently, but they are both very attractive dogs. They shed less than other breeds and pick up far fewer burrs.

I have, by the way, bought young adults of varying training levels as well as mostly-finished dogs in the past. If you put in the time and make a good selection, you will very happy with this method of obtaining a topflight dog. I have done both and have been far more than delighted with my dogs.

How are you grooming your wirehairs I found stripping to take a decent chunk of time. But a groomed one is a very handsome dog.

[ezzy333]

I love training my own dogs. Tried it 30 years ago and just produced outstanding hunting dogs. Was young and poor. No e collar, no launchers, just pigeons. Today I have 2 launchers, e-collar, and perfect start perfect finish program. Have a finished 4 yr Brittany, and 2, 9 month GSP,s in training. The Britt was hunting at 12 months and the 2 GSP,s will be hunting this winter. I want hold till shot out of my dogs. There is a personal satisfaction from training your own dog. Time, It takes 15 min of companionship time each day with a little obedience thrown in and 2 20 minute sessions per week with birds and launchers. Cost of launchers and perfect start DVD set? Buy them, do the training, then sell them. Bet you will keep them for the next dog. Just my 2 cents.

This pretty well explains my feelings about having a dog. Raising and training is a major part of the experience of having a dog. The results are just a part of it and not necessarily the most important part. I look at my dog and can say that it is what I produced and not what I bought. I think the difference might be where we put our feelings, one is feeling great because we have a perfectly trained dog that is a tool we use in the field or we feel the love and connection to our pet and companion that we raised and trained to help us in the field as well as share our live where ever we are. And of course, there are differing degrees of those feelings as well as the fact I am wrong. Simply put one of us enjoys the trip most while the other enjoys the result the most.

Ezzy

[Steve007]

It is also possible, based on "not liking the look of them", that he's never seen a decently groomed wirehair. it does not take a great deal of time to groom a wirehair, but doing at least some improves their looks enormously. (You as a lady should know this. ) Some uncaring or unknowledgeable owners do none, and their dogs are pretty scruffy. Look at different photos of wirehairs on google. With very little work, you can have the look you like.

I have two. I groom them differently, but they are both very attractive dogs. They shed less than other breeds and pick up far fewer burrs.

How are you grooming your wirehairs I found stripping to take a decent chunk of time. But a groomed one is a very handsome dog.

There are two ways to do this, and you'll get good results either way. Shaving them, as can be done with single-coated dogs, is not appropriate for this breed.

If you'll look up 'Mars Coat King" on Amazon (or google), you'll see an easy to use tool that works. It does cut the coat, so it is not precisely hand stripping and some minor work with a blade around the face (or you can use your fingers) is good, but it is effective. Plus toenails and a little scissoring around feet. (picks up fewer burrs and less snow). I do this with my older FC MH . Maybe five minutes every week and I have another tool to pull out undercoat only in the spring. She's a fine looking dog. Her coat is not as harsh as it once was, but she's an older spayed bitch and that's likely a factor.

The other way is what i do with my male. He gets out in public a lot , as he's a nationally-ranked competition obedience dog. Well, so does she, as she's our bodyguard at shows, but she's mostly in her crate. No one has ever seen a GWP in obedience around here, and I feel I have to uphold the honor of the breed, so groom him differently. He's also a multiple specialty-winning (BOW,not BOB) show champion, so i have good material to work with. I do pull the coat using a variety of blades/tools. Probably 10-15 minutes every week. Grooming table is a big help. He's almost always within 15 minutes of final touch-up grooming from a genuine show groomer (which I'm not) of going into the conformation show ring. He has a great coat. We do not show any more, but he may as well look as good as possible in public at obedience trials.

There is no "breed split" in wirehairs, by the way, though there are different lines. There are lots of DC , and my male is a good fun bird dog. These are my first wirehairs (Gordons before that), and I had to learn to groom them. Lots of information (see youtube) and helpful people around. It's not hard to learn, doesn't take much time (but every week) and it's actually kind of bonding-type fun. Grooming table helps a lot.

[FlyinSoLow]

I love training my own dogs. Tried it 30 years ago and just produced outstanding hunting dogs. Was young and poor. No e collar, no launchers, just pigeons. Today I have 2 launchers, e-collar, and perfect start perfect finish program. Have a finished 4 yr Brittany, and 2, 9 month GSP,s in training. The Britt was hunting at 12 months and the 2 GSP,s will be hunting this winter. I want hold till shot out of my dogs. There is a personal satisfaction from training your own dog. Time, It takes 15 min of companionship time each day with a little obedience thrown in and 2 20 minute sessions per week with birds and launchers. Cost of launchers and perfect start DVD set? Buy them, do the training, then sell them. Bet you will keep them for the next dog. Just my 2 cents.

This pretty well explains my feelings about having a dog. Raising and training is a major part of the experience of having a dog. The results are just a part of it and not necessarily the most important part. I look at my dog and can say that it is what I produced and not what I bought. I think the difference might be where we put our feelings, one is feeling great because we have a perfectly trained dog that is a tool we use in the field or we feel the love and connection to our pet and companion that we raised and trained to help us in the field as well as share our live where ever we are. And of course, there are differing degrees of those feelings as well as the fact I am wrong. Simply put one of us enjoys the trip most while the other enjoys the result the most.

Ezzy

Greats posts! Thanks guys for the encouragement to do it myself. You all have very valid points.
Kinda surprised because more often than not in the retriever world I was constantly told “go find a pro” or “ask your pro”.

Doing it myself would of course be more rewarding for me, and I just want a hunting dog, nothing crazy. So you guys are very right.

Hubby wants me to look at Viszalas. He did like the GSP too but always loved the fox red labs... so when I showed him the Vizsla he was instantly intrigued... not in a huge rush right now so we will likely continue to talk about it

[oldbeek]

I am not a trainer and have limited experience with different breeds. The viszalas that I had worked with seem not to mature as soon as GSP,s. Any comments from viszala folks. Am I all wet? Weimerhimers area little weird as pups also. Insecurity problems. BUT This could just be the owners also.

[JONOV]

I know of a finished GSP for sale...NA Prize I, Prize II NAVHDA UT dog. She is in NC. Owners are only selling since they have his littermate and want a female instead to breed to. Dog was whelped in March 2013. PM if your interested.

[Digger007]

Jon, interested in the finished GSP in NC, for myself avid hunter, past English Setter owner out of Chief Justice, trained with Mike Seminatore American Field Cover Dog Award, please feel free, to pass along my info Steven