Breeding question need help

TxBarley99 · Post by **TxBarley99** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:22 pm

Do you mess up a bloodline and pedigree to breed a GSP to GWP. A guy is asking me about my pup that I have who he wamts to breed with but his female is a GWP and I have concerns.

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Post by **Sharon** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:31 pm

I wouldn't. It is hard enough to know what pups will be like , without making it even more difficult to know what you are going to get..look-wise/skill - wise/ health-wise jmo

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:54 pm

TxBarley99 wrote:Do you mess up a bloodline and pedigree to breed a GSP to GWP. A guy is asking me about my pup that I have who he wamts to breed with but his female is a GWP and I have concerns.

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No you don't mess up anything except a litter of pups that are basically just mutts. As Sharon said, you have little idea what you will get or what they will be capable of. Some might be good and some may be worthless as sporting dogs. We have enough of those when we breed the best dogs we can.

Ezzy

DougB · Post by **DougB** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:02 pm

Already enough mixed breeds at the rescue-unless you can come up with a cute name

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:11 am

ezzy333 wrote:
TxBarley99 wrote:Do you mess up a bloodline and pedigree to breed a GSP to GWP. A guy is asking me about my pup that I have who he wamts to breed with but his female is a GWP and I have concerns.

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No you don't mess up anything except a litter of pups that are basically just mutts. As Sharon said, you have little idea what you will get or what they will be capable of. Some might be good and some may be worthless as sporting dogs. We have enough of those when we breed the best dogs we can.

Ezzy

As Ezzy said it won't effect your dog unless she has a STD. You can test for that.
I have always been interested in crossbreeds and some of the very best bird dogs and hounds I have seen have been crossbred. My first really good pheasant dog was GSP Springer cross. Sometimes she pointed sometimes she flushed but, she was always my partner. She ate breakfast with me nearly every morning for nineteen years. I miss that dog.
One thing I have never seen is a worthless pup from breeding the best dogs we can. I absolutely disagree with Ezzy's last statement.
Of course there would no record of this breeding and no registration..................Cj

greg jacobs · Post by **greg jacobs** » Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:44 am

It's total nonsense to intentionally breed two different breeds of dogs. The pounds are already overflowing with dogs.
Noone here should encourage such a breeding.

TxBarley99 · Post by **TxBarley99** » Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:53 am

Thank you for the info guys. That is was what I was thinking as well but wanted to get advise considering I am new to this side of the dog world.

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cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:12 am

From what I have seen a pretty good number of dogs in pounds are registered breeds. This is a owner problem
If you are looking for a dog to be a family hunting dog a Gsp and GWP might be just you need. I would not do it but, I would like to see the results. It as always been interesting to me
He is not talking about starting a breed, although there would be dang few breeds without crossbreeding. The hard part is finding good owners. That is what sends dogs to the pound.
If you have not seen a crossbred gundog that was better than a registered gundog, you need to broaden your horizons. This is a gundog Forum and I have seen some very good crossbred gundogs. Papers are no gaurantee.
Also in the age where prices for a decently bred GSP with health tests and titled parents start at grand and rise very quickly from there is the buyer looking for a entry level family dog better off with a mediocre papered dog that has a few FC 3 or 4 generations back or with a well thought out breeding between two Similar breeds.......................Cj

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:06 am

cjhills wrote:From what I have seen a pretty good number of dogs in pounds are registered breeds. This is a owner problem
If you are looking for a dog to be a family hunting dog a Gsp and GWP might be just you need. I would not do it but, I would like to see the results. It as always been interesting to me
He is not talking about starting a breed, although there would be dang few breeds without crossbreeding. The hard part is finding good owners. That is what sends dogs to the pound.
If you have not seen a crossbred gundog that was better than a registered gundog, you need to broaden your horizons. This is a gundog Forum and I have seen some very good crossbred gundogs. Papers are no gaurantee.
Also in the age where prices for a decently bred GSP with health tests and titled parents start at grand and rise very quickly from there is the buyer looking for a entry level family dog better off with a mediocre papered dog that has a few FC 3 or 4 generations back or with a well thought out breeding between two Similar breeds.......................Cj

CJ you are doing exactly what you are accusing everyone else of doing. You are the one that is trying to sell cross breeding as being superior of straight breeding and it just isn't so. True, I have seen some very nice crossbreds but I find no need or desire to broaden my horizons since we all are aware of the complete inability of predicting what you will produce and then what you will be able to do with them.

Ezzy

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:52 pm

No, Ezzy. I am not accusing anybody of anything. I not saying crossbreds are better. But If the OP wants to breed a crossbred litter it is not going to hurt anything in the long run and they will likely get some bird dogs if the parents are bird dogs. So why not.
how did they get the tall big running Brittanys. What put the Run and temperment in the Imported GSPs.Some of them were killers. I had a male GSP, who was quite influencial in my pedigrees, who has a full blooded pointer in is pedigree. Four generation back I could give you his name but I don't want embarrass somebody and also I think it was the best thing that happened to both breeds. I just watch the dog go on point a half a mile away and hold til I get there and thank the breeder
I am certainly not advocating crossbreeding but I am not against it either. If you want to go for it. Get the dogs in good situations.
Greg Your pedigrees might show some pretty interesting DNA also. A good dog is just that the paper work is meaningless to a family bird dog.
Ezzy try to understand I am not putting anybody down but what happened before DNA was not always above board And what I wrote has no hidden meaning....Cj

Post by **Sharon** » Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:25 pm

ezzy333 wrote: CJ you are doing exactly what you are accusing everyone else of doing. You are the one that is trying to sell cross breeding as being superior of straight breeding and it just isn't so. True, I have seen some very nice crossbreds but I find no need or desire to broaden my horizons since we all are aware of the complete inability of predicting what you will produce and then what you will be able to do with them.
Ezzy

And that is the key which I forgot to mention earlier. Whether crossbred or a good line, what are you going to do with 6,7,8 pups? When I bred beagles with dad we never bred a bitch until we were sure 90% of the pups were sold. ... deposit in hand.

AkBrian · Post by **AkBrian** » Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:43 pm

My first pointing dog when I was a boy was a GSP x DD crossbreed (chainlink fencing was no barrier for a determined DD)). That was in 1965, she turned into a nice hunting dog for anything with feathers or fur. The owner was a family friend and hunting partner of my father and I do remember he was having a difficult time homing the pups (even in those days hunters looking for a bird dog looked past mixed breedings). But the price was right (free) for a kid and to be honest I only cared if she would hunt and come when called, and she did both extremely well.

mask · Post by **mask** » Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:03 pm

You may find a bit of hybrid vigor in a cross like this although they may share some of the same ancestors anyway. If you think there is some advantage to this cross and you are not planning on faking some papers to register the pups as one breed or the other go ahead.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:01 pm

Sharon wrote:
ezzy333 wrote: CJ you are doing exactly what you are accusing everyone else of doing. You are the one that is trying to sell cross breeding as being superior of straight breeding and it just isn't so. True, I have seen some very nice crossbreds but I find no need or desire to broaden my horizons since we all are aware of the complete inability of predicting what you will produce and then what you will be able to do with them.
Ezzy
And that is the key which I forgot to mention earlier. Whether crossbred or a good line, what are you going to do with 6,7,8 pups? When I bred beagles with dad we never bred a bitch until we were sure 90% of the pups were sold. ... deposit in hand.

Sharon
Things have changed considerably since your dog breeding days then. I will guarantee that I could sell any litter of pups if I was able to sell them for $600.
papers are not a guarantee of a good line. I know people who are selling puppies whose parents have no health tests or guarantee, titles or anything else but they are registered. They sell for $150 less than mine and they sell as many as they produce. Most people do not know or care about health testing. We work hard to educate people. I don't know if it works.But pedigree snobs are a major PIA.........Cj

rkappes · Post by **rkappes** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:17 pm

cjhills wrote: I not saying crossbreds are better. But If the OP wants to breed a crossbred litter it is not going to hurt anything in the long run and they will likely get some bird dogs if the parents are bird dogs. So why not.
how did they get the tall big running Brittanys. What put the Run and temperment in the Imported GSPs.Some of them were killers. I had a male GSP, who was quite influencial in my pedigrees, who has a full blooded pointer in is pedigree. Four generation back I could give you his name but I don't want embarrass somebody and also I think it was the best thing that happened to both breeds. I just watch the dog go on point a half a mile away and hold til I get there and thank the breeder
I am certainly not advocating crossbreeding but I am not against it either. If you want to go for it. Get the dogs in good situations.
Greg Your pedigrees might show some pretty interesting DNA also. A good dog is just that the paper work is meaningless to a family bird dog.
Ezzy try to understand I am not putting anybody down but what happened before DNA was not always above board And what I wrote has no hidden meaning....Cj

I agree with CJ.

I think if the parents hunt the pups will hunt. Not everyone cares about papers some people just want a good meat dog at a reasonable price. I'm always interested in mutt bird dogs. My current dog is a GSP/Springer mutt and one heckuva a bird dog (pic below). She consistently out produces papered, purebred dogs. Some people just can't believe that a mutt out hunts their $1,000+ purebred/papered dog. Volunteering at a shelter for numerous years there's a ton of purebred dogs that come in, just because a dog is a purebred doesn't mean it won't end up in a shelter. I bet the OP could easily sell the pups for $200.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:21 pm

rkappes wrote:
cjhills wrote: I not saying crossbreds are better. But If the OP wants to breed a crossbred litter it is not going to hurt anything in the long run and they will likely get some bird dogs if the parents are bird dogs. So why not.
how did they get the tall big running Brittanys. What put the Run and temperment in the Imported GSPs.Some of them were killers. I had a male GSP, who was quite influencial in my pedigrees, who has a full blooded pointer in is pedigree. Four generation back I could give you his name but I don't want embarrass somebody and also I think it was the best thing that happened to both breeds. I just watch the dog go on point a half a mile away and hold til I get there and thank the breeder
I am certainly not advocating crossbreeding but I am not against it either. If you want to go for it. Get the dogs in good situations.
Greg Your pedigrees might show some pretty interesting DNA also. A good dog is just that the paper work is meaningless to a family bird dog.
Ezzy try to understand I am not putting anybody down but what happened before DNA was not always above board And what I wrote has no hidden meaning....Cj
I agree with CJ.

I think if the parents hunt the pups will hunt. Not everyone cares about papers some people just want a good meat dog at a reasonable price. I'm always interested in mutt bird dogs. My current dog is a GSP/Springer mutt and one heckuva a bird dog (pic below). She consistently out produces papered, purebred dogs. Some people just can't believe that a mutt out hunts their $1,000+ purebred/papered dog. Volunteering at a shelter for numerous years there's a ton of purebred dogs that come in, just because a dog is a purebred doesn't mean it won't end up in a shelter. I bet the OP could easily sell the pups for $200.

I don't think anyone is arguing that the pups are likely to hunt. We are saying you won't know how they are going to hunt, what they will look like, and they will be harder to dispose of and all of this for no good reason. Not sure where you are getting hung up on the papers as we all know they are just as good as the person filling them out as far as providing a history of the dogs ancestors and that is all the papers have ever provided. However, due to being purebred we can use our intelligence and have an idea what those dogs will produce if the papers are accurate. On the other hand, you have no idea what you will get from the crossbreeding but worse than that those dogs you produced can not ever be used to produce a pup that you would have any idea what they would produce. And your bet that they couls sell these pups for 200 hundred may be true but if they are purebred then I'll make a bigger bet he can sell them for 200 and probably a lot more for one reason, they are worth more. So tell us again why you would take a pup with no possibility of ever being more than a "meatdog" when so much more is available because many people over many years have bred these dogs to be not only good meatdogs but also they will produce good meatdogs. Meatdogs- what a silly description of a good hunting dog. How about entertainment dogs since that is one of their best qualities, or maybe hunting dogs or get out of the house dogs or just plain expensive dogs.

Ezzy

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:40 pm

Sharon wrote:I wouldn't. It is hard enough to know what pups will be like , without making it even more difficult to know what you are going to get..look-wise/skill - wise/ health-wise jmo

It would be the same if it were GWPXGWP or GSPXGSP . :roll:
has been and always will be .
If you or anyone else figures out how we can get every pup from the same litter look wise/skill-wise/health-wise then give me a call

Even if it's a cross between a doodledangler and a wirehaired something or other.

Post by **Sharon** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:17 pm

I guess I didn't say it well enough. It is a crap shoot even with 2 same breed purebreds, let alone 2 mixed breeds. I don't feel like arguing. Merry Christmas Sir.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:21 pm

Sharon wrote:I guess I didn't say it well enough. It is a crap shoot even with 2 same breed purebreds, let alone 2 mixed breeds. I don't feel like arguing. Merry Christmas Sir.

Merry Christmas . No argument there

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:17 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
rkappes wrote:
cjhills wrote: I not saying crossbreds are better. But If the OP wants to breed a crossbred litter it is not going to hurt anything in the long run and they will likely get some bird dogs if the parents are bird dogs. So why not.
how did they get the tall big running Brittanys. What put the Run and temperment in the Imported GSPs.Some of them were killers. I had a male GSP, who was quite influencial in my pedigrees, who has a full blooded pointer in is pedigree. Four generation back I could give you his name but I don't want embarrass somebody and also I think it was the best thing that happened to both breeds. I just watch the dog go on point a half a mile away and hold til I get there and thank the breeder
I am certainly not advocating crossbreeding but I am not against it either. If you want to go for it. Get the dogs in good situations.
Greg Your pedigrees might show some pretty interesting DNA also. A good dog is just that the paper work is meaningless to a family bird dog.
Ezzy try to understand I am not putting anybody down but what happened before DNA was not always above board And what I wrote has no hidden meaning....Cj
I agree with CJ.

I think if the parents hunt the pups will hunt. Not everyone cares about papers some people just want a good meat dog at a reasonable price. I'm always interested in mutt bird dogs. My current dog is a GSP/Springer mutt and one heckuva a bird dog (pic below). She consistently out produces papered, purebred dogs. Some people just can't believe that a mutt out hunts their $1,000+ purebred/papered dog. Volunteering at a shelter for numerous years there's a ton of purebred dogs that come in, just because a dog is a purebred doesn't mean it won't end up in a shelter. I bet the OP could easily sell the pups for $200.
I don't think anyone is arguing that the pups are likely to hunt. We are saying you won't know how they are going to hunt, what they will look like, and they will be harder to dispose of and all of this for no good reason. Not sure where you are getting hung up on the papers as we all know they are just as good as the person filling them out as far as providing a history of the dogs ancestors and that is all the papers have ever provided. However, due to being purebred we can use our intelligence and have an idea what those dogs will produce if the papers are accurate. On the other hand, you have no idea what you will get from the crossbreeding but worse than that those dogs you produced can not ever be used to produce a pup that you would have any idea what they would produce. And your bet that they couls sell these pups for 200 hundred may be true but if they are purebred then I'll make a bigger bet he can sell them for 200 and probably a lot more for one reason, they are worth more. So tell us again why you would take a pup with no possibility of ever being more than a "meatdog" when so much more is available because many people over many years have bred these dogs to be not only good meatdogs but also they will produce good meatdogs. Meatdogs- what a silly description of a good hunting dog. How about entertainment dogs since that is one of their best qualities, or maybe hunting dogs or get out of the house dogs or just plain expensive dogs.

Ezzy

Ezzy
I have a small problem trying to figure out what you are talking about most of the time but my bet on the crossbred litter was $600.
I do not see why you call papered dogs purebred when we know they are not.They are all cross breeds
Most people who buy puppies from me do not breed. they just want a nice family dog to hunt with in the fall and family companion the rest of the year. The papers mean nothing half never register their pups. This whole thing you have about arguing is in your head. I am not arguing anything and I do not really care but most people like a good meet dog. I never heard that word until I joined a dog club.
Someday Maybe we can take your crossbred mutts You call Brittneys and I can take my crossbred mutt GSPs and go hunting together. if the pedigrees were accurate the might be related. enough of this for ..................................... Cj
j

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:22 pm

polmaise wrote:
Sharon wrote:I guess I didn't say it well enough. It is a crap shoot even with 2 same breed purebreds, let alone 2 mixed breeds. I don't feel like arguing. Merry Christmas Sir.
Merry Christmas . No argument there

Merry Christmas...........................Cj

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:40 am

CJ, our dogs are not crossbreds in any sense of the word. What make them purebreds is they will produce puppies that look and act like heir parents. It has been determined many time it takes 7 generations to get to that point. In other words they have eliminated the odd genes and are back to a state of breeding true to form. And strange as it seems you can breed a greyhound back to pure in just a generation or two because their genes are all dominate over all other breeds. I admit I shouldn't use the word argument as most people think an argument has to be personally confrontational. I use it in the true sense of just expressing opposite thoughts and ideas as it is done in court or even structured debates. You do not have to be disagreeable to disagree.

Ezzy[/quote]

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:27 am

ezzy333 wrote:CJ, our dogs are not crossbreds in any sense of the word. What make them purebreds is they will produce puppies that look and act like heir parents. It has been determined many time it takes 7 generations to get to that point. In other words they have eliminated the odd genes and are back to a state of breeding true to form. And strange as it seems you can breed a greyhound back to pure in just a generation or two because their genes are all dominate over all other breeds. I admit I shouldn't use the word argument as most people think an argument has to be personally confrontational. I use it in the true sense of just expressing opposite thoughts and ideas as it is done in court or even structured debates. You do not have to be disagreeable to disagree.

Ezzy

[/quote]
There are a lot of geneticist who disagree with the 7 generation thing. It still does account for the 23" Brittneys
Our dogs are mutts that know where are their parents came from. Just the same as me. I am proud of that fact in me and the dogs.
I get what you call arguing, treating people like they are stupid and insulting does not need to be part of it.
Anyhow its been fun, Merry Christmas. Hope Santa Is Good To you and your family. Same to every one else on here. God Bless LONG LIVE THE GROSSBREDS..............Cj

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:48 am

Folks -

There will ALWAYS someone with a really nice dog(in their opinion) that they feel is worthy of reproducing. Many times folks want another just like the one they have and other times folks may want to combine the best features of two dogs. T

If the two dogs are both registered purebreds of the same breed, there MAY be a market for those pups. If the two mating dogs are of different breeds, there is, at best, a very limited pool of prospective buyers in today's hunting dog market. In many cases, you cannot even give such pups away for free.

In either case, before doing the breeding, the responsible person will consider what do with the puppies that they themselves do not want or need from that breeding.

Over the last fifty years or so, I have found that I can usually buy a better pointer puppy than I can breed myself. And it is waaaay less expensive, when you consider the time and effort in raising a litter from birth, even if you own both dogs and there is no stud fee involved.

To each their own.

Merry Christmas, Happy New Year and happy holidays to all.

RayG

greg jacobs · Post by **greg jacobs** » Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:50 pm

cjhills wrote:Greg Your pedigrees might show some pretty interesting DNA also....Cj

I'm sure my white girl is going to show some white pointer. Many of us know what was done and why. Not suppose to talk about that are we.

And as far as paper goes what are your real thoughts.

All are from AKC master hunter breeding's for several generations, with some field trial, NAVDHA and NSTRA blood.
FT blood, oh there is some more of that white blood.

My point is there are too many dogs being brought into this world. And litters like this are not necessary.

And we regularly walk dogs at our local shelter. Most aren't pure bred and many of the purebreds are adopted.
In the beginning we would ask which hadn't been out. The answer was any of the black ones. Pretty sad and it is hard to go in and get a couple dogs out that may not make it to adoption. There are just to many dogs being produced.

And Merry Christmas to all
Greg

greg jacobs · Post by **greg jacobs** » Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:04 pm

RayGubernat wrote:Folks -

There will ALWAYS someone with a really nice dog(in their opinion) that they feel is worthy of reproducing. Many times folks want another just like the one they have and other times folks may want to combine the best features of two dogs. T

If the two dogs are both registered purebreds of the same breed, there MAY be a market for those pups. If the two mating dogs are of different breeds, there is, at best, a very limited pool of prospective buyers in today's hunting dog market. In many cases, you cannot even give such pups away for free.

In either case, before doing the breeding, the responsible person will consider what do with the puppies that they themselves do not want or need from that breeding.

Over the last fifty years or so, I have found that I can usually buy a better pointer puppy than I can breed myself. And it is waaaay less expensive, when you consider the time and effort in raising a litter from birth, even if you own both dogs and there is no stud fee involved.

To each their own.

Merry Christmas, Happy New Year and happy holidays to all.

RayG

Exactly, that's why I leave it to the breeders with knowledge and the will to be responsible for the pups that they produce. And the willingness to rehome when necessary. and I'm betting you are one of those willing to rehome CJ

Featherfinder · Post by **Featherfinder** » Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:54 am

I don't think the question is about someone stealing, killing or molesting. Would I do it? Absolutely NOT! But, he wouldn't be the first or the last and I'm not here to judge.
Actually, I thought about some crosses myself. Thought about crossing a Bull Terrier with a Shih Tsu. I'd call it a Bullshi_. What about a Bichon with a Lab? I'd call it a Bichon Lab! What about a Bichon Frise with a Husky? Might call it a Frizen Husky? Wow....I should have been a brain sturgeon!

Urban_Redneck · Post by **Urban_Redneck** » Tue Dec 26, 2017 5:46 am

A commitment to finding good homes for the 5,6,7,8,9, puppies that you and your friend don't keep, is the only responsibility you owe anyone. Plenty of continental breeds have been "refreshed" and even recreated through out-crossing.

$0.02

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:30 am

Urban_Redneck wrote:A commitment to finding good homes for the 5,6,7,8,9, puppies that you and your friend don't keep, is the only responsibility you owe anyone. Plenty of continental breeds have been "refreshed" and even recreated through out-crossing.

$0.02

Tell us more.

Urban_Redneck · Post by **Urban_Redneck** » Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:50 am

Merry Christmas Ezzzy!

More about what? My opinion or the empirical fact I stated?

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:30 am

Plenty of continental breeds have been "refreshed" and even recreated through out-crossing.

I know there has been individuals who have been less than honest but refreshed and recreated? I am not aware of that.

Urban_Redneck · Post by **Urban_Redneck** » Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:10 pm

I'm most curious about French dogs as I own a Braque d'Auvergne.

Craig Koshyk's incredible tome: Pointing Dogs Volume 1 The Continentals
is rife with stories of breeds on the edge of extinction brought back through careful out crossing. While the exact details of the programs are not delved into, the basics are there- not so much fireside yarns, but less than a dry text book. It's worth every penny (350+ 12x9 pages with hundreds of great photos) if minority breeds are interesting to you.

A short example:

Braque 'd Francais was actively split by breeders wanting smaller dogs more able to run in trials, Ep was introduced into some lines. The breed club recognizes both the original type Gascone and the now more popular, lighter, type Pyrenees.

The Pont Audemer Spaniel is a breed that was likely saved by crosses to English and Irish Water Spaniels after two World Wars and waning interest decimated the stock.

The Braque d' Burbonnais in another breed that benefited from outcrosses when widespread inbreeding created a large number of dogs with problems.

There are a bunch more, get the book

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:15 pm

Thank you. I was thinking you were talking about our dogs in this country and not what happened in Europe, much of it after WWII when many minor breeds were almost lost. It is interesting reading from what I am familiar with.

Ezzy

Featherfinder · Post by **Featherfinder** » Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:02 pm

I met Craig while he attend a local event to gather pics some years ago - delightful chap. The book is interesting however his photographic skills are nothing short of artistic!

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:31 am

The shortest route from a heavy, slow,,Dark colored, killer imported GSP was right through the nearest EP kennel. Same way for tall, fast, white Brittneys. Not a bad thing. Breed standards do not mean a whole lot. We can register what ever we breed. We can also find most anything we want within the breed.
Good, bad or indifferent who knows. I like it but I do get the argument from people who use the word "purebred". In a perfect world we would have this nice little breed standard and all dogs would fit. Problem is you eliminate every body that wants something different and the breeds die............Cj

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:00 am

What breed? Different size. different color, different shape, different hunting style, tell me again CJ, how I tell a GSP from a setter or a Brittany, or fpr that matter how do I tell it from a Tennessee Walker? I am assuming you are happy with one universal animal that no one is sure what it is, because without standards we have no breeds, same as without borders we have no country. What in the world has happen when we have lost all sense of identity and performance, all for the sake of not having to make a decision? Our ancestors must be turning over in their graves. Maybe that is what has happened and we think it is an earth quake.

Ezzy

mask · Post by **mask** » Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:49 am

The man ask about messing up a pedigree. That may allude to trying to register the pups. CJ and Greg are correct when talking about huge running gsp or brits. If mars testing is ever done instead of a simple dna test folks might get a surprise.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:24 pm

ezzy333 wrote:What breed? Different size. different color, different shape, different hunting style, tell me again CJ, how I tell a GSP from a setter or a Brittany, or fpr that matter how do I tell it from a Tennessee Walker? I am assuming you are happy with one universal animal that no one is sure what it is, because without standards we have no breeds, same as without borders we have no country. What in the world has happen when we have lost all sense of identity and performance, all for the sake of not having to make a decision? Our ancestors must be turning over in their graves. Maybe that is what has happened and we think it is an earth quake.

Ezzy

No, Ezzy we do not tell a Brittney because they are all the same shape and size. Surely you can tell the difference between a dog and a horse. We know a brittney because we keep what breeders consider the desirable traits and add what they consider improvements. That is what improves the breed why it continues. Brittney breeders have done a excellent job of this.
The GSP breed would not be remotely as popular as it is without the improvements the breed has went through in the last 60 years. We still recognize them as GSPs but they are not remotely close to the first Imported dogs. I have lived through this change I know how it happened and I like it. Some do not.I would not own GSPs if this transition had not took place nor wood most people I know.............................Cj

FurIsFun · Post by **FurIsFun** » Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:43 pm

Making the breeding wont "mess up a bloodline" and the pups wont be registered, unless they have papers hung on them...which is exactly what has happened plenty of times throughout history. The notion that two similar type bird dogs would produce something so inconsistent that it would be destined to end up in the pound is absolute nonsense. Working dogs of many types around the world have been bred that way. The very breeds that some now hold as "pure" were all made with crossbreds. There is huge variation in "pure breeds" today that all carry the same name, so that isn't a guarantee of consistency. Knowing the pedigree, (papered or not), as in knowing how the 2-3 generations behind the pups actually performed will be the best indicator of what to expect in the future. Breed any two fast dogs that came from fast dogs, and you are likely to get fast pups regardless of matching breed names or papers...you can replace "fast" with pointing, tall, spotted, cold nosed etc...it will turn out the same. Most "purebreds" were developed to suit a certain need. Not everyone has that same need, so they either spend a lot of time culling and selecting for what they want from the existing gene pool or they make a crossbreeding and hope it saves them some time. Crossing two different types produces more inconsistency than two similar types. A GSP x GWP would be the latter.

MNTonester · Post by **MNTonester** » Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:11 pm

I certainly see Ezzy's point, but have to agree with CJ. Both parents are pointers; I suspect the pups will be gifts or sold unregistered; and would expect the pups to take on the traits of the parents. I have to think there would be many folks interested in such pups

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:00 pm

MNTonester wrote:I certainly see Ezzy's point, but have to agree with CJ. Both parents are pointers; I suspect the pups will be gifts or sold unregistered; and would expect the pups to take on the traits of the parents. I have to think there would be many folks interested in such pups

I agree but my concern is that many as CJ said he would find no problem crossbreeding and calling it a new an improved model of whatever
you want to call them.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:00 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
MNTonester wrote:I certainly see Ezzy's point, but have to agree with CJ. Both parents are pointers; I suspect the pups will be gifts or sold unregistered; and would expect the pups to take on the traits of the parents. I have to think there would be many folks interested in such pups
I agree but my concern is that many as CJ said he would find no problem crossbreeding and calling it a new an improved model of whatever
you want to call them.

Ezzy, That Is absolutely not true and you know it. Several times I wrote that I would not do it myself and I never mentioned calling it anything.
But the simplest way to breed a brittney to compete with a pointer is to put in some pointer blood.
Simple economics and logic. You know it happened as does everybody else Who has any interest in dog breeding.........Cj

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:53 am

cjhills wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
MNTonester wrote:I certainly see Ezzy's point, but have to agree with CJ. Both parents are pointers; I suspect the pups will be gifts or sold unregistered; and would expect the pups to take on the traits of the parents. I have to think there would be many folks interested in such pups
I agree but my concern is that many as CJ said he would find no problem crossbreeding and calling it a new an improved model of whatever
you want to call them.
Ezzy, That Is absolutely not true and you know it. Several times I wrote that I would not do it myself and I never mentioned calling it anything.
But the simplest way to breed a brittney to compete with a pointer is to put in some pointer blood.
Simple economics and logic. You know it happened as does everybody else Who has any interest in dog breeding.........Cj

You did and I forgot, sorry CJ. It is really hard to get toy age and make your first mistake. lol There have been several on here that think I have made many of them and they are probably close to right.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:41 am

Ezzy:
Thanks, but no need to apologize to me. I am only a short jump behind you.
I do admit that sometimes what I write that seems really clear to me is misinterpreted by readers. It is all good.............................Cj

Featherfinder · Post by **Featherfinder** » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:00 pm

Well, crossing has been going no for ages and still does to this day. Here is the only thing I struggle to understand. If you want a Brittany to run like a pointer, why wouldn't you just get a pointer? In my experience, that Brittany X pointer cross will be less dog than a good pointer X pointer.
In the many years before DNA, secret crossings were....presumed. These crosses were sometimes nice dogs too. Almost as nice as a pointer!

shags · Post by **shags** » Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:01 am

Because in competition there is *one* performance standard and it seems that standard was set by pointers

. It’s not like Best in Show judging where each dog is compared to a breed standard and the one that fits its standard best, wins.

AFAIK, brittanies go to setters, not so much pointers, for juice - at least in these parts. Blend in easier, I guess

greg jacobs · Post by **greg jacobs** » Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:01 am

My guess is it was done by people that had a real need to win. Not sure they believed they were going to win in AA all breed trials but they probably did. At the very least they wanted to win in breed specific trials.
CJ had a good point about what it did for the gsp breed. I think the American gsp's had already transitioned a fair amount from DK's by selective breeding. But when the top white pointer blood got mixed in it added an even bigger gene pool to develop new lines from. You can use anything from DK to AA type gsp blood to develop a line. This just gives a huge range of gsp's to choose from. It means that you need to really study before you buy. A new gsp buyer that doesn't understand, can easily end up with a gsp that isn't suited for their ability or hunting style. Not sure I would call myself what CJ called a pia pedigree snob, but I sure want to know what is in my dogs pedigree.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:26 am

shags wrote:Because in competition there is *one* performance standard and it seems that standard was set by pointers . It’s not like Best in Show judging where each dog is compared to a breed standard and the one that fits its standard best, wins.

AFAIK, brittanies go to setters, not so much pointers, for juice - at least in these parts. Blend in easier, I guess

You are absolutely right. I bought a MG the other day to haul grain with instead of a Peterbuilt then realized that they were bred for different purposes and both are excellent for their intended purpose. Too bad so many can't see that with our dogs.

Ezzy

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:46 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
shags wrote:Because in competition there is *one* performance standard and it seems that standard was set by pointers . It’s not like Best in Show judging where each dog is compared to a breed standard and the one that fits its standard best, wins.

AFAIK, brittanies go to setters, not so much pointers, for juice - at least in these parts. Blend in easier, I guess
You are absolutely right. I bought a MG the other day to haul grain with instead of a Peterbuilt then realized that they were bred for different purposes and both are excellent for their intended purpose. Too bad so many can't see that with our dogs.

Ezzy

I don't exactly get your comparison. But the big difference is all pointing dogs are bred for the same basic purpose. How they achieve it is some what different.
Competitive people do not want buy a pointer to beat a pointer. They want to breed a GSP to beat a pointer. They don"t care if it is half pointer as long as it don't show too much. Some Call it cheating. I call it breeding.
If you like everything about the dog but one or two things that are lacking. Why not breed in what is lacking.
I still think a good dog is a good dog and would like to see what the OPs breeding would produce................Cj

shags · Post by **shags** » Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:18 pm

cjhills wrote: If you like everything about the dog but one or two things that are lacking. Why not breed in what is lacking.
I still think a good dog is a good dog and would like to see what the OPs breeding would produce................Cj

There’s the rub....OP didn’t mention what was hoped to be gained by this breeding.
Then ya gotta define what is a good dog.

I think there’s a giant difference in going to say, a top winning pointer or setter to ‘improve’ some GSPs or Brits and breeding just two random dogs to see what happens. Maybe if the OP could get the WH’s owner to talk about what he hoped to achieve with the mix, and why he wanted it, the OP could make a better informed decision. But seems like there are plenty of good (lots of variety in both breeds, for whatever good means to him) GSPs and GWPs around to provide whatever traits the owners are looking for without crossing.

OMMV.