First "game" contact.

[Trekmoor]

A few months back my daughter bought herself a GSP pup with the idea of having him as a pet and as a companion when she does her training runs for marathons. The pup was relatively cheap as his pedigree does not have one single name in it written in red ink. I asked the breeder before she bought him if he worked the sire and the dam (he owns both of them.) The sire is worked only on deer and the dam is his general purpose gundog ….but to what standard I do not know.

I like the pup who is now 7 months old and have been doing little bits of retrieve training with him as I hope to use him for "picking-up" at a local pheasant shoot. His main problem is one I am no longer fit enough to do much about ! He takes off when he sees another dog in order to play with it ...normal puppy behaviour but I can't "get out there" to catch him . I mentioned this to my daughter but she did nothing about it …. apart from join a "positive only" dog training class.

The class did nothing at all to help and I began to hint ….very heavily ….. that maybe she'd better to revert to training the pup that actions have "consequences." She stuck to the "positive" stuff and treats but then something happened that horrified her but which quite pleased me !

She took the pup for a free-run walk along the back of a row of houses where there is a narrow , rough grass valley and a lot of low bushes and brambles. Someones farmyard hens had wandered out of his backyard and down into the valley. The pup found one, chased it down and caught it. "Hooray for the pup !" said I but my daughter wasn't so pleased. She'd just seen her nice easy going pup turned into something that no longer took any notice of her or of her treats !

He refused to recall and she chased after him to rescue the hen …. I wasn't so pleased to hear that ! Eventually she cornered him and he dropped the hen which , apparently, ran off with only major feather loss to remind it of it's close encounter with a ravening GSP pup.

It's an ill wind that blows nobody good..... my daughter is now listening to what I tell her and acting on it . I pointed out to her that if he'd had a bit more recall training that was maybe not based on getting a treat or if she'd done some retrieve training with him , which would be easily done as he already retrieves to me ….in less exciting circumstances …. then she could have just given him the retrieve command and then have taken the hen from him. She has now begun to train the retrieve .

For people and for dogs actions have "consequences" either good or bad. My hope is that this little incident will have persuaded my daughter to get some balance into her training ….. a bag of treats isn't always the best way of overcoming problems.

From my point of view this incident has at least shown me that the pup likes to find "game" and , so far, he appears to be soft mouthed !

I find it a bit odd though that folk in general will pretty much ignore advice freely given by someone who has been dog training fairly successfully for more than 50 years in favour of paying through the nose for advice from a complete stranger !

Bill T.

[isonychia]

Positive only training sounds like a spinoff of the new human child rearing trends, only at least those have some research to back them.... I would think there is no hope with this approach. Like momma yote or momma fox or wolf, etc raising their kids like little marshmallows; if I did only positive training I am pretty sure my dogs would have died early deaths getting run over or bitten by snakes, etc. Good luck, maybe you could get another pup of your own and then show her how well he minds. I would put an collar on that dog and condition him property first with the check cord, start at the basics and lookup proper collar conditioning and use, do it when your daughter is away.

[reba]

There are only three commands a dog needs: WHOA, WHOA, WHOA

It will save the dog's life

The WHOA command is first taught a close distance with a long lead. When the dog starts to get it, introduce the whistle.

If after a few weeks if isn't just freezing up on the command then training collar should be introduced. It may be that he will need to be FRIED a few times, but she needs to use it!

BTW it is not the class that did not help the dog, your daughter did not learn and may not have the ability to control a very smart dog.

99% it's the dog owner

[Trekmoor]

Putting an e-collar on the pup is not legally possible in Scotland where the e-collar is banned. The thing that stops me doing something about the pups insistence on chasing off after other dogs is simply that I can no longer move fast or far. I had this happen with a few other pups in the past but I was more active then and got control of things even without ever using an e-collar.

My daughter will have to do the fast moving !

Bill T.

[reba]

Trekmoor,

You think this is funny?

you did not read my post or just skipped to the e-collar part.

The dog is out of control. Chasing after it is the WRONG thing to do.

However when the dog runs into real trouble and gets run over and killed, then you won't have anything to worry about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Trekmoor]

If after a few weeks if isn't just freezing up on the command then training collar should be introduced. It may be that he will need to be FRIED a few times, but she needs to use it!

"FRIED ?" A 7 months old puppy ? Are you for real ?

I agree the pup is out of control at the moment but I have trained and worked gundogs for more than 50 years without having to fry a pup or a dog ...or even use a shock collar. Maybe you could not do that but I was once able to . I gradually worked on pups until they would obey commands even with strong distractions like other dogs or game around.


I worked dogs and I field trialed them successfully for as long as I was physically able to . E-collars are not the answer to everything for every dog. I suggest you work to gain a broader experience base before telling people ....rather forcefully .... to "fry" a puppy or an adult dog.

In any case, as I said in my previous post e-collars are banned here , I couldn't use one even if I wanted to.

Bill T.

[polmaise]

You come across as somewhat upset and loud , and also a bit angry Bill ?

[Trekmoor]

I can only think that Reba didn't read the bit about e-collars being banned in Haggisland ? In any case I wouldn't use an e-collar set at "Fry" on a 7 months old pup. As you know, although I am not anti -collar I believe in using them only if the user has a very good understanding of their correct usage. I don't have that understanding due to the fact that I never used one except on confirmed and determined sheep-chasers. I lack the experience and the expert guidance I would have wanted in proper e-collar usage.
The usual run of gundog distractions such as other dogs, birds, rabbits and hares I managed to control with no need for an e-collar …. as do hundreds of other trainers .

It takes longer but we all , including you, get there in the end if we have put in the thought, time and effort.

Bill T.

[polmaise]

I am sure "Reba" probably read it wrong "Trekmoor" , like so many can in text .
I am sure some also think that "running" is part and parcel of running a dog down . :roll: .. but some others know different
Shame all them years were spent out of breath.
..........
Good that your daughter is learning , whether its with a tube of primula cheese or a wake up call.
End of the day ..Is a learning day for everyone .

[isonychia]

I was trying to think about what it was the old timers used before ecollars and then I remembered a quote from an old book about how the only piece of training equipment you needed was a shotgun. We have come a long way since peppering dogs, if not I wouldn't be in this sport. Your only approach leftover is consistent use of check cord recall with absolutely no exceptions. If you can't enforce the command, you can't give it. I wouldn't let that dog off leash until maybe 1 year old unless in an area you won't need recall, simply because you won't be able to reinforce it.

[cjhills]

I was trying to think about what it was the old timers used before ecollars and then I remembered a quote from an old book about how the only piece of training equipment you needed was a shotgun. We have come a long way since peppering dogs, if not I wouldn't be in this sport. Your only approach leftover is consistent use of check cord recall with absolutely no exceptions. If you can't enforce the command, you can't give it. I wouldn't let that dog off leash until maybe 1 year old unless in an area you won't need recall, simply because you won't be able to reinforce it.

Many people are capable of training a very solid recall without a ecollar. They are better trainers and understand the dogs better than the ecollar only trainers. It takes a longer but it works.
Frying a young dog is definitely not the way to go. You can easily make them way to collar sensitive......Cj

[averageguy]

I have a foot in both worlds. I use PR and an ecollar.

I have friend who has put VC, AFC, FC, MH, MR, OB and more titles on multiple dogs using no ecollar and PR only based training. She has a one year old dog with a UT1 204, AFC, Points toward FC, a couple of passes on senior retriever title, Just completed OB title this past weekend - all PR.

I take notice and want to learn more when I run across stuff like that...

[isonychia]

I was trying to think about what it was the old timers used before ecollars and then I remembered a quote from an old book about how the only piece of training equipment you needed was a shotgun. We have come a long way since peppering dogs, if not I wouldn't be in this sport. Your only approach leftover is consistent use of check cord recall with absolutely no exceptions. If you can't enforce the command, you can't give it. I wouldn't let that dog off leash until maybe 1 year old unless in an area you won't need recall, simply because you won't be able to reinforce it.

Many people are capable of training a very solid recall without a ecollar. They are better trainers and understand the dogs better than the ecollar only trainers. It takes a longer but it works.
Frying a young dog is definitely not the way to go. You can easily make them way to collar sensitive......Cj

I think maybe you quoted the wrong person. I offered an option sans ecollar and didn't really mention frying a dog.

[DonF]

I think the e-collar is being miss represented. Yd fry it. I put one on the pup to run with as soon as the pup is big enough not to have it slide off. Don't turn it on though. Another couple month's and then when it start's out, low intensity setting. Look for the pup to give some type reaction to a bump and your pretty much there. ya, I have fried a dog now and then, didn't accomplish a darn thing! My Stormy reacted to the caution buzzer on the collar! If I use the shock button, very seldom, it is really low intensity. He doesn't give much indication he's got it other than minds faster. People that don't use the collar I think put a lot more time into their pup, that' a good thing. My hat's off to Bill. People that use it as a form of punishment are abusing it. I think everyone else falls in the middle some where. My first dog's were trained without a collar, there weren't any. Slow process but great dog's!

[Sharon]

A few months back my daughter bought herself a GSP pup with the idea of having him as a pet and as a companion when she does her training runs for marathons. The pup was relatively cheap as his pedigree does not have one single name in it written in red ink. I asked the breeder before she bought him if he worked the sire and the dam (he owns both of them.) The sire is worked only on deer and the dam is his general purpose gundog ….but to what standard I do not know.

I like the pup who is now 7 months old and have been doing little bits of retrieve training with him as I hope to use him for "picking-up" at a local pheasant shoot. His main problem is one I am no longer fit enough to do much about ! He takes off when he sees another dog in order to play with it ...normal puppy behaviour but I can't "get out there" to catch him . I mentioned this to my daughter but she did nothing about it …. apart from join a "positive only" dog training class.

The class did nothing at all to help and I began to hint ….very heavily ….. that maybe she'd better to revert to training the pup that actions have "consequences." She stuck to the "positive" stuff and treats but then something happened that horrified her but which quite pleased me !

She took the pup for a free-run walk along the back of a row of houses where there is a narrow , rough grass valley and a lot of low bushes and brambles. Someones farmyard hens had wandered out of his backyard and down into the valley. The pup found one, chased it down and caught it. "Hooray for the pup !" said I but my daughter wasn't so pleased. She'd just seen her nice easy going pup turned into something that no longer took any notice of her or of her treats !

He refused to recall and she chased after him to rescue the hen …. I wasn't so pleased to hear that ! Eventually she cornered him and he dropped the hen which , apparently, ran off with only major feather loss to remind it of it's close encounter with a ravening GSP pup.

It's an ill wind that blows nobody good..... my daughter is now listening to what I tell her and acting on it . I pointed out to her that if he'd had a bit more recall training that was maybe not based on getting a treat or if she'd done some retrieve training with him , which would be easily done as he already retrieves to me ….in less exciting circumstances …. then she could have just given him the retrieve command and then have taken the hen from him. She has now begun to train the retrieve .

For people and for dogs actions have "consequences" either good or bad. My hope is that this little incident will have persuaded my daughter to get some balance into her training ….. a bag of treats isn't always the best way of overcoming problems.

From my point of view this incident has at least shown me that the pup likes to find "game" and , so far, he appears to be soft mouthed !

I find it a bit odd though that folk in general will pretty much ignore advice freely given by someone who has been dog training fairly successfully for more than 50 years in favour of paying through the nose for advice from a complete stranger !

Bill T.

I think that's pretty common Bill My Dad bred and trained Beagles; when I started doing that I took his advice poorly too. Stupid. Don't push it. Hang back and let your daughter ask you. It will happen.

Many folks have trained without an e collar, but why not use another tool that is now available. The key is to find the lowest level that the dog responds to and leave it there except for maybe trash breaking.
Only time I feel I've abused a dog is when I hit the button for the wrong dog. :roll: The dog looks at me like "What the heck did I do?!"