Pointing Breed SH Scenario........

[TheMorningRise]

For those who run/judge, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this one.

AKC Senior Hunt Test and the brace is running well. Brace mate gets a nice point and the other dog does its job backing. That dog is collared while the pointing dog gets the bird flushed and shot. That dog makes a nice retrieve. Both dogs are released to continue.

Wind is slight to none and the backing dog above hits at bird and locks up. Given the lack of wind and the direction that this dog came from, the bird is 12"-15" off of the dogs nose. The point is nice and staunch. Given the proximity of the bird, when it is flushed the dog jumps up. All four paws leave the ground. However, the dog does not give chase. It remains where it was. The bird is shot. The dog is steady to fall. The dog is released and makes a beautiful retrieve to hand. The dogs are released and they finish out the run.

Did the second dog (who jumped) fail or pass?

Was the dog rock solid on the flush? No. 12"-15" off of the nose is "bleep" difficult for even the best dogs. However, the dog did not give chase and was basically steady to shot and fall.

I'm passing both dogs.

Thoughts.......

[slistoe]

If it appeared to me that the dog made an attempt to grab the bird, no pass. All four feet off the ground sounds like a lunge for the bird.

[wihunter]

I am not a judge, but reading the rules, and being involved in other hunt testing/training/field trialing, I would agree with slistoe. Maybe it is not a lunge, but the scenario and all 4 feet coming off the ground make it sound like it could’ve been. If the dog mouthed at the bird or swung the head in an attempt at it while doing this, definitely no pass in my opinion.
However, being that it is senior level, not master level, if it does look like the dog didn’t lunge or make an attempt at the bird to catch it, I would think a pass would be fine. But again I am not a judge, just another regular person involved in the games opinion.

[Sharon]

Both dogs passed imo. The second dog did not break and go after the bird.

[TheMorningRise]

Appreciate the replies thus far.

Good to see the thoughts of others.

I believe it is a tricky situation (gray area).

It is SH and not MH, so I believe some leeway should be given. Yes, the dog does jump and as a couple of you said, it could be an attempt. But as Sharon stated, the dog did not give chase.

Other than the jump, the dog basically gives a MH level performance.

[Sharon]

Ah I miss those exciting and sometimes frustrating days.

[wihunter]

Assuming this is a real scenario that happened to you what was the outcome?

[TheMorningRise]

Assuming this is a real scenario that happened to you what was the outcome?

The scenario has not happened.......yet. LOL

I was simply throwing it out there to see what other's thoughts were.

Some crazy things happen out there.

[cjhills]

Most judges probably DQ. I would pass. If the dog was trying to grab the bird he would have got it at that distance. If the dog turns or even takes a step or two to mark it should pass.
A lot depends on the judge. Some like to pass dogs and some like to fail them.........Cj

[TheMorningRise]

Most judges probably DQ. I would pass. If the dog was trying to grab the bird he would have got it at that distance. If the dog turns or even takes a step or two to mark it should pass.
A lot depends on the judge. Some like to pass dogs and some like to fail them.........Cj

Spot on!

I’ve talked to A LOT of people the past month. AKC and NAVHDA. General opinion is the dog can move to mark. As long as it doesn’t chase, it is fine.

[slistoe]

Most judges probably DQ. I would pass. If the dog was trying to grab the bird he would have got it at that distance. If the dog turns or even takes a step or two to mark it should pass.
A lot depends on the judge. Some like to pass dogs and some like to fail them.........Cj

Spot on!

I’ve talked to A LOT of people the past month. AKC and NAVHDA. General opinion is the dog can move to mark. As long as it doesn’t chase, it is fine.

So, is a move to mark a swivel in place, a couple of stutter steps, a big jump and stopping on a whoa command? The rules allow a move to mark - some people take a rather liberal interpretation of the difference between a lack of steadiness and a move to mark. I love to watch dogs that are worthy of a pass. I have never been a fan of bending the rules just to hand out a ribbon.

[cjhills]

I am not sure of Senior rules, since I only run Masters. Definitely no whoa command in master. I learned that early.
i want my dog to watch the bird's flight. If he has to take a few steps or spin to do that, I would be good with it. I feel like a dog that stands rock solid and lets a bird fly over his head without reacting is over trained and not a dog I would want to hunt with.
I like Sharon's posts. I tred to talk AKC into letting us handle off a four wheeler when I got so I couldn't walk far or fast enough. That didn't work so good.
The most exciting dogs are one the edge of disaster. I loved that.......Cj 

[Steve007]

I believe it is a tricky situation (gray area).

It is SH and not MH, so I believe some leeway should be given. Yes, the dog does jump and as a couple of you said, it could be an attempt. But as Sharon stated, the dog did not give chase.

Other than the jump, the dog basically gives a MH level performance.

You are correct. If you are a judge, I think you are a good one.

Interesting post and situation, by the way.

[TheMorningRise]

Most judges probably DQ. I would pass. If the dog was trying to grab the bird he would have got it at that distance. If the dog turns or even takes a step or two to mark it should pass.
A lot depends on the judge. Some like to pass dogs and some like to fail them.........Cj

Spot on!

I’ve talked to A LOT of people the past month. AKC and NAVHDA. General opinion is the dog can move to mark. As long as it doesn’t chase, it is fine.

So, is a move to mark a swivel in place, a couple of stutter steps, a big jump and stopping on a whoa command? The rules allow a move to mark - some people take a rather liberal interpretation of the difference between a lack of steadiness and a move to mark. I love to watch dogs that are worthy of a pass. I have never been a fan of bending the rules just to hand out a ribbon.

Personally, a "move to mark" would be.........

Spinning around to watch a bird that flew past (but not leave, say a 2-3 foot circle). A side step to clear the gunner/flusher, so as to get a sight line on the bird.

If the dog takes steps towards the bird (i.e moves more than 3 feet in the direction of the bird), it is no good.

[TheMorningRise]

I am not sure of Senior rules, since I only run Masters. Definitely no whoa command in master. I learned that early.
i want my dog to watch the bird's flight. If he has to take a few steps or spin to do that, I would be good with it. I feel like a dog that stands rock solid and lets a bird fly over his head without reacting is over trained and not a dog I would want to hunt with.
I like Sharon's posts. I tred to talk AKC into letting us handle off a four wheeler when I got so I couldn't walk far or fast enough. That didn't work so good.
The most exciting dogs are one the edge of disaster. I loved that.......Cj 

Those "edge of disaster" dogs, are often the ones who give us the biggest; heart attacks, anxiety and most awe inspiring performances.