NAVHDA NA tracking frustration

shootist · Post by **shootist** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 12:13 pm

Lonnie called and told me that Cash is doing well in the NA test. he will have to run the tracking portion again. Seems that Cash started tracking the pheasant and ended up catching one, but the one he caught wasn't the one he was supposed to track. Lonnie said Cash was the only dog today that caught the bird (or I guess a bird). cash will be given another opportunity to track. Does catching the wrong bird happen very often?

mtlee · Post by **mtlee** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 1:22 pm

I was at the event and met Cash, good looking dog. I didn't see him run though and since it was my first NAVHDA event I don't know whether that happens often or not.

shootist · Post by **shootist** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:49 pm

mtlee wrote:I was at the event and met Cash, good looking dog. I didn't see him run though and since it was my first NAVHDA event I don't know whether that happens often or not.

Thanks for the compliment.

Looks like Cash gets a no prize. He got a zero on tracking. If only he hadn't caught the wrong bird.

griffgirl · Post by **griffgirl** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 4:46 pm

So in the tracking of a cripple bird.....the dog isnt suppose to catch it?That is in the NA.

Shootist can you tell me about what the heck went on at the test.I will be doing my pups NA in March and I quess Im not getting what went on.

Thanks Shawn

larue · Post by **larue** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 4:57 pm

the judges are looking at if the pup tracked the bird,not if he found it.
The worst case senario is if the pup breaks into a search and finds the bird without ever tracking.
You can also run into a pup who tracks the wrong bird,he can be failed for not doing his job,which was to track the bird he was given.
Ny wifes munster had this happen,he broke off his birds track,tracked another bird for quite a ways,but he never tracked the brd he was sent on.
The tracking portion of the n/a test can be the toughest to judge,it is not about finding the bird,but a pup that shows it can track a bird

volraider · Post by **volraider** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 5:10 pm

I have a female with a 107 prize II and the track is what done us in of course I never trained for the track so it was my fault completely. What happened on her track was the bird took a big hop after about 20 steps from being released. Belle would follow the track good then get to where the bird hopped then she would open up into a big search pattern and was never able to pick up where the bird landed.

Shootist hopefully we will be on our way of getting a chapter started in our area sometime this summer.

Brian

shootist · Post by **shootist** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 5:33 pm

My understanding is that he tracked the right bird for quite a ways and then picked up on the wrong one.

I should've had him better prepared. He maxed out the water and did well on the field work though.

I feel terrible right now. I feel like I really let Cash down.

DKRick · Post by **DKRick** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:26 pm

Don't be too hard on yourself. The dog will forgive you. Even the best have bad days and don't make it at times. You have learned and had a great experience I hope. Will you run it again or just move on to a Utility test?

Rick

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:36 pm

Shootist wrote:

I feel terrible right now. I feel like I really let Cash down.

With all due respect, you did anything BUT let your dog down.

There is NO correlation between NA scores and success in further testing. You've got to remember to "keep your eyes on the prize" - the goal is not a piece of paper that has a prize 1 NA score. The goal is a finished hunting dog.

If I have a motto regarding training high-performance hunting dogs, it's "this is a marathon, not a sprint". Don't get caught up in the little stuff along the way, that will only slow you down.

You want to let your dog down? Then get focused on that NA prize I, run a couple of dozen tracks in practice and then drag your pup all over the place running him in NA tests. You'll eventually get that prize I, at your dog's expense. More dogs in NAVHDA get ruined by focusing on that awful pheasant track than just about anything else (Breeders Award is a close second).

Personally, I struggle to understand how your dog got a 0 in track if they saw the dog actually track a bird, but I gave up trying to understand NAVHDA judging years ago.

Just keep training and moving forward, and keep training towards that polished, fully finished hunting dog.

JMO,
Dave

Debf · Post by **Debf** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:23 pm

Our dog failed a NA test --- he's a VC today. It's one day of your young dogs' life - don't make if more than it should be. The pheasant track is the part that get's most young dogs.

Sounds to me as though, overall, Cash did a great job.

Deb

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 10:48 pm

Shootist,

I was at the same test and ran my GSP. The track was tough. It was mid 70s and hot. Plus they ran the track as each pup left the bird field. The track was on some mowed ground between two 80 acre sorghum fields. One was the bird field and the other looked just like it. My girl took off for the unhunted one ...and hunted it! I didn't blame her because she had just found about 8 birds in the one she just hunted! Fortunately, she came back (eventually) and acknowledged the track and followed it for a few feet and found the bird. I would have scored her a 1 and they saw it the same so she received a Prize III.

Too bad because she got a 4 in water, 4 in search and a 4 in pointing. Do I think the Prize III will hurt her ability of becoming a great bird dog? Absolutely not. I know what kind of dog she is and I think I'll keep her.

griffgirl · Post by **griffgirl** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:04 am

I guess I dont get it either.If the pup tracked a bird who cares if it wasnt the same one.Isnt a track a track?

Im sure if it was in the field hunting on a normal day you probably would have 2 in the bag.

I shouldnt even be reading this because now Im thinking...about ours going in June for his NA and about the track.

A hugh cut field doesnt sound like anything I would hunt in, in the beginning.I thought it was suppose to be like a true hunting situation?

Also this kinda sounds like its a little tough in the NA department for a pup?What I mean by that is having more than 1 bird in the field where they are do the track.Isnt any dog going to start to track another bird if they lose track on the other one and pick up maybe a more fresh track that crosses there path?

shootist · Post by **shootist** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 4:20 am

I don't plan on running him in another NA. I hopefully will run him in Utility.

I am of the logic that he tracked a bird, so what if its the wrong one. I think having more than one bird in the area makes it very difficult. I would think most dogs tracking a bird could easily change tracks if another had crossed its path, etc. He did show that he can track. The judges made him run the track again since he got the "wrong" bird. He had to wait tntil the others were done before he could redo the track. When he went to the tracking field for the second time he started hunting instead of tracking.

Shawn, my advice would be to get plenty of practice at tracking. That seemed to be the thing that got many dogs.

larue · Post by **larue** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 4:30 am

Shootist,the judges did not make him do another track,they gave him another chance to do better,probably the reason they waited until later to give your pup another bird was to let your pup calm down,and forget where the bird was that he had just found.
If he had ran one right away,he would no doubt had ran right back to where the bird was,that he had just found.
As dave stated,do not worry about the tracking score,my best dogs have always have a tough time with a track.
Tracking is a crapshoot,when the condtions are bad,many dogs will do poorly,when conditions are good,many will do ok.Cover and weather can really affect a tracking score.

Drahtsundbraats · Post by **Drahtsundbraats** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:43 am

Tracking is a crapshoot,when the condtions are bad,many dogs will do poorly,when conditions are good,many will do ok.Cover and weather can really affect a tracking score.

I agree with this but good tracking dogs get the job done whatever. Many are afraid to get their dogs tracking because they think it will teach the dog to hunt with his face on the ground. Others don't prepare for it and the dog just continues in search mode and never really tracks as mentioned.

The best way to prepare dogs for this is to make sure that your pup always gets clear clues as to what it needs to do. If you run tracks at the local park on short grass, leading the pup to a starting point, patting the ground and commanding "track", it will learn that this is not a search and there is scent to follow. You can still take your pup out in the grasslands and run him into the wind and he will learn how to locate birds with his head up. A lot of this is "gear changing"-some do it better. I do agree that all dogs can be trained eventually to do what you need to some degree.

IMO...the influence of the desire for a "hotter" dog TENDS (note this is not an absolute what I am saying!!!) to lead to young dogs that want to run first-slowing down and tracking is not as natural.

bwood · Post by **bwood** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:39 am

My understanding is that if the dog tracked for a while it wouldn't get a zero and I don't think changing birds would affect that. Now we need some input from a judge. Does a re-ride erase everything from the first go-round. I.e. does the dog start from scratch on the second track. If that is the rule and then the pup went instantly into search you get 0. If the first run was also considered and there was some tracking done then it shouldn't have been a 0. Any judges that can tell us the rules?

markj · Post by **markj** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:46 am

I guess I dont get it either.If the pup tracked a bird who cares if it wasnt the same one.Isnt a track a track?

I belive this simulates a wounded bird in the field, he needs to bring back the one you shot and wounded. or you leave a cripple. In a real life hunt scenario.

larue · Post by **larue** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:55 pm

bwood,there are no hard fast rules,that is why they are called judges,not referee's or scorekeepers.They must judge the situation,and score the pup
the way they see it.
The fact that the pup was brought back for a sec try speaks of the judges positive attitudes.
Drahtsundbraats,most dogs will track some,and some people think a dog must drop its head to track,but it is just not so.
The hardest dog for most navhda judges to score is a dog who tracks with its head held high,while moving fast,but these are the special dogs,especially when they can stop tracking and point what they were tracking,without pushing the bird up.
These make great wild bird dogs.

Drahtsundbraats · Post by **Drahtsundbraats** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:33 pm

Drahtsundbraats,most dogs will track some,and some people think a dog must drop its head to track,but it is just not so.

I am well aware of this, but I don't think you start out a pup teaching it to "air track". The most important thing in all of this is that tracking is not a free ranging search. Whether a dog puts his head down or up, it must realize that the scent that is on the groundand that you have indicated must lead it. Many young dogs need to be slowed down until they get the "connection" and the reward of finding the bird.

Of the dogs that I have owned that tracked with a high head, all of them leaned to get their noses down once we went to the water and the swamp.
The smart dog learns with experience what conditions demand.

It is often difficult for young dogs to go from a full blown galloping search to a contolled and focused track of game. A good hint is to practice that. Once the dog knows what "track" means, take him off a hot search, put him on a lead and walk him to a track. As I think someone mentioned, don't overdo this tracking stuff-once a pup has got it, you don't need to keep at it.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:42 pm

I guess I haven't seen a dog that needs to be trained to track. I spend time with my pups trying to hurry them enough that they keep the head up and don't track. I want the bird dog to hunt body scent with the head up. I watch the pups out in the yard trailing the cats or anything else that walked across the yard so I let it go with that. I have no idea if they would pass an NAVADA test but I have never had any interest in their type of training in developing the stylish independent birddog.

Ezzy

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:16 pm

Shootist, Don't worry about the no prize. My GSP Mercy failed her NA, of all things on use of nose. That same fall she got a UT 204 prize 1 and became a VC the next test in MO. I had a french britt female run in NA this past spring. She started out on her track and quickly changed direction and found a bird. They brought her back later in the day and ran her again, she did fine and got a NA 1. Who knows what happens and what the judges see at any particular time. Sounds like your pup had a pretty darn good day. Have fun and don't worry.

shootist · Post by **shootist** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:12 pm

bwood wrote:My understanding is that if the dog tracked for a while it wouldn't get a zero and I don't think changing birds would affect that. Now we need some input from a judge. Does a re-ride erase everything from the first go-round. I.e. does the dog start from scratch on the second track. If that is the rule and then the pup went instantly into search you get 0. If the first run was also considered and there was some tracking done then it shouldn't have been a 0. Any judges that can tell us the rules?

It would appear that the second run wipes out the first try. I would like to have seen him get a 1 for the initial track. Lonnie said the 1st try wouldn't go against him, so I would assume that also means it doesn't count.

I know I have a good dog, I'm just aggravated that I didn't train my pup good enough. He did what he thought he was supposed to do.

Drahtsundbraats · Post by **Drahtsundbraats** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:02 pm

I have no idea if they would pass an NAVADA test but I have never had any interest in their type of training in developing the stylish independent birddog.

"Their" type of training also develops some wonderful independent and stylish dogs-who also happen to do a lot more than field work. Apologize if I'm wrong, but your comment seems to be condescending. My UT1 bitch back a few years ago produced an FC that had more than a few AA runs.

Recovering game is the highest calling for a hunting dog. Whether they stick their nose up or down to track wounded game, dogs that recover game consistently are just better hunting dogs than those that are just stylish. I'm all for independence and style but its not enough-IMO.

bondoron · Post by **bondoron** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:15 pm

griffgirl,

Where are you running your NA test?

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:39 pm

Draht,

I have no quarrel with the caliber of dogs that are running in NAVHDA. But I think you will be hard pressed to find many dogs that are trained that way that are running trials. Its just a different ball game.

And you are free to have your opinion on what makes the best bird dog. You are saying retrieving is the most important but I have heard many people say they have to hunt wild birds to be the best. As you see everyone has there opinion but there is no right or wrong answer to what is the most important. It's just what pleases you that counts.

I don't want a dog that tracks birds. Instead I want a high headed dog that is fast and intense that looks for objectives and goes to them. I don't want quartering but rather what is called line searching. I also want a dog that retrieves, since the recovery of game is important. But I would rather have a dog mark where the bird fell and go to that area and search. Hopefully if the bird is dead it will be found and if it isn't and the dog picks up a trail it would be nice if he tracks it or finds it however it can.

The head down, tail down tracking type dogs is what kept me from having GSP's years ago. However, the past 30 to 40 years has seen tremedous improvements in these areas and most are stylish intense bird dogs today that still have the ability to hunt waterfowl and do the retrieving as the continental breeds have been bred to do.

It's just as easy and just as cheap to have a good looking bird dog that get the job done as it is to have one that isn't. And I think in most eyes style has a lot to do with what we think of as good looking. I really can't think of a breed today that doesn't have good looking dogs that are good dogs.

Ezzy

larue · Post by **larue** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:14 pm

Drahtsundbraats,just for my sake,tell me what you would call an all age run?

griffgirl · Post by **griffgirl** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:28 am

[quote="bondoron"]griffgirl,

Where are you running your NA test?[/quote]

We will be at the Kettle Moraine Chapter grounds this weekend for there training days and the same in June for his NA.

Drahtsundbraats · Post by **Drahtsundbraats** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 6:16 am

We disagrre about dogs and retrieveing. The greatest independent, stylish dog that either left birds or wasn't a good locator of shot/wounded game would be a second class dog for me. We probably are in much agreement, just coming at the issue from different sides.

larue,

The trainer of this dog used to call me years ago and tell of the dog putting down 1-2 hours 800-1500 yds ahead of the horse on an intense search for birds. That to me would be a dog with AA potential and certainly beyond what I would consider a gun dog. She was also a soft dog-was difficult to break but she finished.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 7:34 am

You shouldn't get discouraged by the failure of the NA. You'll find that in some trials you get the good breaks, in some bad breaks. That's the nature of the game.

PAHunter · Post by **PAHunter** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 10:10 am

Ezzy,

I have to respectfully disagree with you when you say that you haven't seen a dog that needs to be trained to track. If that were the case then we wouldn't have a dog fail the NA test. Dogs that test in the NA test are young dogs that may have not had a lot of exposure to game or had any real hunting experience. If a trainer doesn't train for this aspect of the test they may be setting their young dog up for failure.

Yes I believe all dogs can track to a certain degree, but this thread specifically relates to what a young dog needs to focus on during a NAVHDA testing situation.

Josh

shootist · Post by **shootist** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:01 pm

Speaking from my experience in the NAVHDA NA test please do not overlook the tracking portion. I recommend anyone running in this test spend some quality time on tracks. It will pay off come test time.

volraider · Post by **volraider** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:47 pm

With bird numbers so low here in east Tn it helps if your dog can track a bird. My male tracks really well and sometimes it's with his head up and sometimes with it down just according to the scenting conditions. Anyway I have seen him track a grouse over 100 yards off foot scent then nail the bird down with body scent. He always points his birds with his head high and usually he hardly if ever bumps birds.

bondoron · Post by **bondoron** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 5:00 pm

griffgirl I will be running with the St Croix chapter in Glencoe MN. I just asked where you were testing because we will be testing on June 10th also. Good luck to you, and let us know how you do.

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 6:31 pm

Some dogs track high some low, I think it has more to do with the individual, dogs manner of gettting work doneor maybe the quality of the nose?. My GSP runs with a high head on a track unless it is very dry or hot. She runs competitively in NSTRA trials when we have the chance. To those that don't know any better or can't read the dog one can't even tell if she is tracking. One of My french Britts runs the field hunting with a high head then on occasion will drop his head and run a track till he finds the bird. Usually when this happens it is dry or some thing tough about the day. He runs in NSTRA trials and is doing pretty well. My old dog dexter a big britt is head down all the time. He is a good blood tracker also. He Runs head down, tracks head down, points head down. He don't miss many birds. I understand there are trials that place style over substance. But to each their own.

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:15 pm

Shootist wrote:

Speaking from my experience in the NAVHDA NA test please do not overlook the tracking portion.

And as someone who's seen probably 100+ dogs trained for NA and 50 for UT I'd encourage everyone to NOT take the tracking portion very seriously.

The NA track is a poorly designed test. You are allowing a young dog to encounter a unwounded bird (pulling feathers doesn't cut it IMO) that can't fly with the wind at the dog's back. It's a recipe for disaster. It is important for dogs to track live game but the goal there is to point, and not catch, the bird. It is important for dogs to track wounded game. The NA track accomplishes neither.

Now, a question for the group..........

What about the young dog whose been blessed with enough natural ability to realize that he's got a running bird that doesn't smell wounded? He realizes that he's got the wind at his back, so the best thing to do is to get his butt downwind and get his nose into the wind so he can scent the bird instead of running over it.

We score that a 0, even though the dog showed a tremendous amount of bird sense. If I had a dollar for every NAVHDA member who has asked "how can I get a dog to box in a running pheasant" I'd be a rich man. The first issue we need to address is why are we breeding away from pups with the natural ability to do so in the first place.

JMO,
Dave

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 9:16 pm

Exactly my thoughts Dave. I am concerned when we try to develop some false method of testing a dog and then fault them for doing the right thing. I am not against any type of training but am concerned when we lose track of what a hunting dog should do. As I said before I don't want my dog to track because it interferes IMO with the dog using his head and pinning the bird as quickly as possible.

Ezzy

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 9:31 pm

I am not against any type of training but am concerned when we lose track of what a hunting dog should do.

Ezzy,

Pun intended?

Dave,

The track is a pain in the butt. I don't like it but it is part of the game. If you read my post on page one my pup also screwed up the track. She went hunting instead of tracking. It cost her a Prize I. I'm pi$$ed because I didn't let her do a couple of tracks before the test. I should have but didn't. Oh well, Prize III.

I have tested almost 30 times in NAVHDA and I know that I don't own a Prize III dog. I own a Prize I dog. She'll just have to prove it in UT. And guess what? Tracking a live bird is NOT part of the UT test! Go figure!

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:16 am

It's a tracking test. Always train tracking with wind blowing scent away from dog, you want the dog to track not put head up and just chase, or begin to range. And you can't tell me a bird from a pen with feathers pulled that probably leaves a little blood at the base of the shaft, and handled, smells like a wild unharmed bird!

Gee guys :roll:

Also, I expect my dogs to catch and retrieve a wounded bird not point it.

All that aside, the bird is running and this can be tricky in bad conditions of strong wind or very dry ground or other conditions that make the ground hold less scent, BUT the pup is put onto the track when it is very fresh. The pup just has to show it can trail a "wounded" bird and retain concentration on the track even if the pup began to range at the start but returned to the scent area and then began to follow the track. It's a learning experience for many pups and many pups are brilliant, more so than when older.

Drahtsundbraats · Post by **Drahtsundbraats** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 8:23 am

What about the young dog whose been blessed with enough natural ability to realize that he's got a running bird that doesn't smell wounded? He realizes that he's got the wind at his back, so the best thing to do is to get his butt downwind and get his nose into the wind so he can scent the bird instead of running over it.

We score that a 0, even though the dog showed a tremendous amount of bird sense. If I had a dollar for every NAVHDA member who has asked "how can I get a dog to box in a running pheasant" I'd be a rich man. The first issue we need to address is why are we breeding away from pups with the natural ability to do so in the first place.

This is a test of tracking-not dead bird locating. In the context of the 50-75 yds that are used for this test, it is possible for a dog to run to the downside and work back on the wind to the bird. That is great locating but it is not tracking. This method has little chance of working when a wingshot pheasant runs 300 yds changing direction with the wind. The dog that just runs downwind in this scenario is not the dog I want.

I really don't understand the big problem folks have with this part of the test. Its quite simple-all it requires is a pup that has had a little experience and is capable of shifting gears and concentrating on a short track. IMO, the dogs that have problems with this are the hotter dogs that want to get it done with their feet and not their nose. Judges know what they see-they can see when a pup runs down wind of the line-they can see when a pup criss-crosses the line-and they can see when a pup repeatedly circles back on the line til it has gone far enough to locate the bird. BTW, I'm willing to bet that 30-40% of the pups point the bird when they have found it-which counts towards the pointing evaluation. I feel strongly that most dogs that have trouble suffer from poor preparation or are not mentally mature enough to focus on the task. ALL can become in their own time good dogs.

Good versatile dogs have the "switch"-they know when its heads up and heads down, but they show clear evidence that they are willing to track.
The two key words in judging the track are "accuracy and persistence".
A dog that just acknowledges the scent and then runs out 100 yds. in a field search til it finds a scent cone-is not tracking. They will not be able to do this in the water and I don't want a duck dog that goes to the scent at the "fall" and then launches into a "search" for the scent cone of the wounded duck. I want the dog to follow the scent trail to the duck-faster more efficient and gets the dog with the duck back in the blind.

I also had a dog years ago that would run to the far end of a tree row and work back looking for a wounded pheasant. That dog lost more birds than the dog that gets to the fall and has speed on the track. By the time that dog found the track, other dogs were already working it.

Your method can work, but we're looking for the best way and launching into a field search til you run through the scent cone is not the most efficient method.

Windyhills · Post by **Windyhills** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:16 am

Interesting thread. Drahts I am not saying I agree completely but the problems I see most people have with the NA tracking test is related to how well it actually demonstrates natural ability and whether it actually penalizes desire, which one would think would be a preferred trait. Some are concerned with it, but I don't buy the thinking that tracking training makes for dogs who run with their nose to the ground all the time--have seen enough dogs who run high when hunting and yet track well.

A dog with a large amount of bird desire and drive is what many hunters--not just those into field trials--want. Such dogs seem more likely to leave the track and forge ahead to find that bird when they are young--if they are good at that, and persistent--and find the bird without too much hunting--why shouldn't they be rewarded, instead of penalized? I think that's the problem some folks have.

There's also the age-old dilemma: If it is a natural ability test, why do you have to train for it? And if you train for it, can you compare dogs who pass with those who don't? Is it the training that gets those who pass through--or natural ability?

Not bashing NAVHDA, I actually really like the program and in this region at least it seems to be the gold standard for getting folks new to gun dogs into training and testing. I'm thinking of giving it a try with my next dog.

Drahtsundbraats · Post by **Drahtsundbraats** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:42 am

A dog with a large amount of bird desire and drive is what many hunters--not just those into field trials--want. Such dogs seem more likely to leave the track and forge ahead to find that bird when they are young--if they are good at that, and persistent--and find the bird without too much hunting--why shouldn't they be rewarded, instead of penalized? I think that's the problem some folks have.

There's also the age-old dilemma: If it is a natural ability test, why do you have to train for it? And if you train for it, can you compare dogs who pass with those who don't? Is it the training that gets those who pass through--or natural ability?

I understand completely what you are saying and if the real priority is to end up with a good hunting dog then whether they learn to track well at 1 yr or two years isn't a big deal. You are focused on the result-finding the bird. The test is focused on HOW the dog does it-by tracking accurately and persistently. The best versatile dogs do mature young and bring the whole package. Pups at 6-12 months of age that can fly in the field and then be composed on the track show more versatile "hard wiring" and that is what this test is about. Many dogs will be in the same place at age 3. However, I will look for my breeding stock among the dogs that can fly and be calm from the git-go.

I AGREE that if you have to train a dog for a year to track and run the dog at 15 months, you shouldn't let the score impress you. I don't think you train the dog, you expose the dog. I don't think you would take a dog to a Derby that had never seen a bird. I have had many dogs that now belong to someone else because they just needed too much "training" til they got it. Those dogs have made wonderful hunting dogs-but I look for breeding dogs and for me breeding dogs should have the instincts genetically. The ability to slow down and concentrate and track should be instinctive with minimal exposure-not taught. With a little exposure the best dogs should "get it".

I think we probably want the same thing-its probaby the time table that seperates us.

PAHunter · Post by **PAHunter** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:57 am

Good versatile dogs have the "switch"-they know when its heads up and heads down, but they show clear evidence that they are willing to track.

To me that says it all. A good versatile dog knows the difference between a field search and a track. A dog needs to understand the tracking command and needs some drills to develop focus.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:58 pm

There's also the age-old dilemma: If it is a natural ability test, why do you have to train for it? And if you train for it, can you compare dogs who pass with those who don't? Is it the training that gets those who pass through--or natural ability?

Exactly my position. I have nothing against a dog that figures out how to recover a bird but I am not going to train a dog for a natural ability test.
I made that statement when I run my dogs in JH tests and most people disagreed with me but if we are testing for natural ability, Traits that are bred and not trained, then we have negated the whole purpose of the tests.

This is why I also completely disagree with people when they say JH is nothing but a title for a show dog and means nothing. I will look at the JH title as the one that tells me about a dog and the SH and MH titles tell me about the trainer, nothing more. I do agree though the NA or JH titles may not mean much if they are trained for and have nothing to do with the breeding qualities of the dogs when we feel we must train for things that should be bred for. Dogs being FF leads to the same problem and it is already starting to show with few dogs being considered for breeding are natural retrievers.

It seems to me we are making the end game training a birddog rather than breeding or buying a birddog.

Ezzy

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:33 pm

I can see many of you are confusing training with giving a pup exposure.

Would you keep pup in the back yard and then take it to a test and expect it to do well in search and tracking?
If you take your pup into the outdoors and let it fossick around and learn about scents and encourage pup into water, is this training for an NA test?

No.

It is giving pup necessary exposure so it can learn and develop it's natural abilities. To do a drag or two with a bird to encourage pup to figure out following a trail will lead it to something rewarding (the bird) then in my book that is giving a pup exposure, opportunity to learn, rather than training.

Also as you must all know, these tests are about retaining all the necessary abilities of a Versatile hunting dog and not just about having a dog that points birds.

griffgirl · Post by **griffgirl** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 5:22 pm

Bondoron....back at ya,good luck with the test.Why are you going to MN instead of one in WI?Just wondering.

Margaret,all the questions I was going to ask you pretty much answered them for me if your posts.My thoughts exactlly on exposing the pup rather than you are out training them.

Now for the tracking question.

If a dog tracks with a high head how do the judges know if they are tracking or searching or hunting for that matter?

Also in the NA test...so they pull the feathers and what let the bird go where ever?What do they want the pup to do point the bird,or just show the judges that they tracked the bird with NO catchng of the bird?

If the pup does catch the bird maybe knowing the bird is wounded because I have had this happen already what would the judges do?I shot a bird in the corn field bird went down and about 15 seconds later it got up and ran.The dog went after it,tracked it down and came back with the bird still blinking its eyes.

I know my pup tracks pretty good but from reading all this my head is spining.

bondoron · Post by **bondoron** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 5:48 pm

griffgirl, The chapter is actually a WI chapter, but the grounds are in MN. A couple different reasons on the why. One reason is it will save me 3 hrs round trip driving time. And the other is the breeder I got my dog from, the owner of one of Brittas littermates and another owner of one of the breeders pups will be there. So I will know some people there. There are some other reasons too but those are the big ones.

Drahtsundbraats · Post by **Drahtsundbraats** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 7:01 pm

griffgirl,
Sounds like your dog has already had success at this so no need to have your head spinning.

Judges know where the bird has gone-they know which way the wind is blowing and they can tell if your dog has taken a line, head up, downwind of the track. If your dog does that, you'll do FINE!! Once the dog has made contact with the bird, the track is over unless they need to see if the dog points.

Gun Dog Forum

NAVHDA NA tracking frustration

NAVHDA NA tracking frustration

Hi head? Low head?