why not sit?

dirtdiver · Post by **dirtdiver** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:44 am

Been reading a lot in here about how you guys don't teach your dogs to sit.

Where I live there's basically 3 1/2 months of hunting. The rest of the year the dog(s) are with me, in the house, at the lake, etc. So, I've always taught mine to sit and stay. Granted, my dogs aren't world class, but they find birds and they also are good house companions.

Just curious about the no sit rationale.

TrueBlu Shorthairs · Post by **TrueBlu Shorthairs** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:56 am

When a dog is taught to SIT early, and then is being taught WHOA, some dogs will revert to sitting, a command they know. Often this is due to pressure and the dog wants to do something right, to please the owner. Fixing a dog that sits when you say whoa is often not a major undertaking, but there is no need to cause a potential problem if you can keep from it.

I own two Field Champions, one Amateur Field Champion, an All Age dog, and three pups. NONE know sit, but are not a problem in the house. I have never taught a pointing dog to sit and quite honestly have much more house manner problems with my Catahoula, who knows SIT, than the 7 shorthairs.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:56 am

I don't think it's as much to not teach sit as to not teach it before the dog is doing well on its birds.

The reason is that when *some* dogs are taught to sit a lot, they escape the pressure of steadiness training by sitting. It's then sometimes hard to get them out of it without affecting their style.

I did teach my first dog to sit early and it hasn't been much of an issue. I didn't do it on my second dog because by then I'd been working with a friend's dog that had a lot of "automatic sit" training that would sit down on point if you looked at it hard much less laid hands on it. I just didn't want to take a chance with my boy.

Best regards, Greg J.

Edited: Blake, your post beat mine "to press" and said it better than mine did.

Don · Post by **Don** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 10:53 am

I think sit is a safe posture for a dog. Some dogs will do it on their own if they aren't handling pressure, however slight you might believe it to be. It can also create a problem if you teach whoa from the heel. One day it's stop and stand still the next stop and sit??????????

I'd teach my dogs to sit. But them I teach whoa from a post. Sit is not only a safe posture, it's an obedient posture. Well taught, like a whoa command, it anchors a dog to a spot. Sit is the position of a steady flushing dog except it's is called "hup".

bean1031 · Post by **bean1031** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 4:13 pm

to teach your dog sit is perfectly fine just after he is very farmilair with whoa. I use the cmand sit a hundered times a day around the house. and some peaple train there pointers to retrieve water foul when there steady on upland and in the blind that is a must.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:34 pm

Pointer guys are paranoid about dog's sitting on point. They don't, at least on wild birds. It's a very easy thing to correct if they do. It's kind of like not teaching a retriever "down" because you're afraid he'll lay down, not sit on the whistle. Dog trainers correct problems in dogs. That's what we all do. It is such an easy thing to correct. If you say whoa and the dog sit's, just step on the inside back foot gently and say no, whoa, pulling the dog ahead and up. That's it. No bid deal.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 8:29 pm

Pointer guys are informative when asked and are willing to impart what they have learned through years of experience. The reluctance to teach sit is well founded but anyone who doesn't want to learn from other peoples experiences are within their rights to ignore what so many others have learned.

I think every person on here has stated it isn't a life or death measure but is something that comes up with some dogs and it doesn't need to. So everyone do what you want but don't try to tell new people that most of the people on here don't know what they are talking about. We all have opinions and most are based on experience and that doesn't mean everyone has had the same experience. But that doesn't take away from the people who have.

Ezzy

Windyhills · Post by **Windyhills** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:33 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:\. If you say whoa and the dog sit's, just step on the inside back foot gently and say no, whoa, pulling the dog ahead and up. That's it. No bid deal.

GH, the method several well known "pointer guys" use to correct sitting have some similarity to what you described I think, without the pulling ahead and up part. I might need to see what you do in action, but I think what I have heard them describe is more of a boot pushing back against the hocks from inside the legs. In a book I'm reading now one of them says they push DOWN lightly on the back end, as their dogs natural inclination is to resist in the other direction--i.e. to sit back up. Do you find your method results in the dog working against your upward pull in an effort to stay down?

In any case, those "pointer guys" who subscribe to the nonverbal stand up/stand still training claim it is a pretty easy problem to correct--that method I might add is claimed to help keep the style in a dog too. Seems intuitive--correcting a sitting problem by reverting to a known command to stand up!

fitchjr · Post by **fitchjr** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:11 pm

i agree with trublue and don on this. my belief is that when you get a pup, and the first comand you teach is sit. then the dog gets praised for sitting and given treats and treated like a god, cause everyone likes a dog that sits. from then on when the pup gets in a crunch or uncomfortable it sits expecting praise because it knows that is a safe place. therefore when you start doing further training, the dog reverts to what it knows is good and sits. i fully plan on teaching my dog to sit but im waiting till she understands other commands.

right now, she runs to the kennel everytime she is corrected inside, i believe it is because the first real command she learned was kennel and that is her safe spot that she was praised for. thanks to my girlfriend.

bobman · Post by **bobman** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 5:27 am

I've taught evey dog I have ever owned to sit, in thirty five years of shorthairs none have ever sat on point yet.

My dogs live in the house and I want them to be good house dogs, sit is a useful command for that.

I've heard this"sit on point" thing for many years so I'm sure its happend but I would bet it is because someone is putting a lot of pressure on a dog that doesnt understand some command

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 5:54 am

It's never a problem till it is.

Wait till you start helping a friend that has been taking their dog to obedience classes for a year with the concommitant automatic sit. The poor thing, every time it was on point and he walked up to it, it was sit down and look up at him for praise.

It's easy to head off. Go easy on the sit stuff or put it off till after the dog is doing well on its birds.

Best,

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 6:09 am

If the dog can be taught, and they all can, the difference between sit and whoa, it is not a big deal. I differ from Don only slightly here in that I teach whoa and sit simutaneously so they dog understand the difference between the two. It is also a great way to break the problem if it has been improperly instilled in the dog. It always makes me chuckle when people say a dog can't discern between sit and whoa but they can tell the difference between here, fetch, hold, back, whoa, stay, etc. That may make sense to some of you, but it doesn't to me. A dog is easily capable of learning at least 26 different commands (not phrases) so why not take advantage of that and get all we can out of them?

dirtdiver · Post by **dirtdiver** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 2:47 pm

Interesting replies. Think I'll teach sit last after reading all these posts, my goal is to have this dog be a better hunting dog: Even though I've always taught sit first in the past.

Sitting instantly on command saved two of my dogs' lives, at different times, as they were 10 years in age difference. They both were running straight for the street as a car was coming. Each time I yelled sit, and they froze and sat on the spot. I've since moved so this isn't an issue anymore.

That being said, for those of you who teach whoa first, will your dogs completely stop on command. I understand that is the intent of the command, but whoa seems to take longer to train, where as with sit, the dogs seem to learn that quicker: This is what I've discovered. Hope all this makes sense.

DakotaRed · Post by **DakotaRed** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:02 pm

I have a 15 week old French Brittany who sits all the time. When I am trying to teach the woah command I put my hand under her belly to keep her from sitting. If I remove my hand she will only stay standing for 5 sec or so. Does this sound like a good way of trying to teach her to remain standing or is their some other way that may work better?

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:17 pm

Half hitch your CC around her flank area so when you whoa her you can keep her standing. Just be patient and gentle for a few days and I think she will get the message.

Ezzy

Gordon Guy · Post by **Gordon Guy** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:29 pm

Instead of "sit" I use "whoa" it doesn't matter to me if their butt is planted or not. Whoa makes them stay, so does sit. For me it's easier to prevent a problem then to fix one.

My $.02

LarryLowell · Post by **LarryLowell** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:14 pm

If there is a chance a problem may even pop up, why do it, even if it can be fixed with ease ?

If a dog has been taught to sit there is a chance when your formally working on patience with the checkcord and pinch collar that the dog will try to sit. The basic way to teach sit is to pull back on the collar and push on the dog rear. Once your formally working a pointing dog with a checkcord and pinch collar once the dog points if he starts to creep you give alittle pressure or tug on the checkcord. If the dog has been taught to sit this tug will cause him to sit. Its the same command you just taught him.

Even if it can be fixed why confuse the dog, all that will do is add pressure to a young dog when its not needed. Different dogs handle pressure differently, why give anything negative like stepping on the dogs foot or kicking him on the back of his leg, or adding a checkcord or e-collar to his belly ? Sure that will fix the problem but why do something that can cause a problem that will then cause a distraction from the bird. I like to train a dog through his desire not take it away. We have enough distractions with training a pointing dog why add a new one thats not needed ?

Personally I would stay way for teaching sit. Sit is not the end all for control on a dog.

Larry Lowell

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:38 pm

It can be a problem if it's taught to early and particularly if it's done to forcefully.

The smartest way to approach it is to pretty much have your dog through any whoa work, and have them steady on birds prior to teaching sit.

I have 13 house broken dogs. None were ever taught to sit before they were three years old. When we start house breaking the first step is to bring them in and let them stay in a crate till they settle down, then they move to the bed beside my desk. They are taught control and obedience very quickly that way and without pressure that will come back to create problems in training later.

I had a dog here for training last year who's owner had been very proud of the fact the dog was taught to sit with 100% compliance before it was four months old. The dog was certainly very mannerly and would sit like a showdog.

However at 12 months of age when he came to me for training it took me six extra weeks to get the dog whoa broke because every time he felt the slightest tug on the lead he sat down. This had become his default response for any correction/pressure. Needless to say that added up to about an extra six hundred dollars for the owner and a lot of lost time in the field.

Sit is not necessary for any reason, therefor why train something in, that may cause problems later?

Teach whoa first, staunch up on birds first, later if you must once most of the high pressure work is over teach whoa. It can save a lot of problems. CR

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:27 pm

DakotaRed wrote:I have a 15 week old French Brittany who sits all the time. When I am trying to teach the woah command I put my hand under her belly to keep her from sitting. If I remove my hand she will only stay standing for 5 sec or so. Does this sound like a good way of trying to teach her to remain standing or is their some other way that may work better?

Step on her inside back toe and say "UP". She'll stop the sitting in a hurry. That way you won't have to suitcase her when she sits.

LarryLowell · Post by **LarryLowell** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:50 pm

DakotaRed wrote:
I have a 15 week old French Brittany who sits all the time. When I am trying to teach the woah command I put my hand under her belly to keep her from sitting. If I remove my hand she will only stay standing for 5 sec or so. Does this sound like a good way of trying to teach her to remain standing or is their some other way that may work better?

At 15 weeks if your dog is acting soft to corrections I would stop for awhile and let the pup be a pup. I wouldnt step on a 15 week old pups foot.

For some reason people always feel the need to rush into some form of training when they get a new pup. You dont get a head start on any training by starting earlier, but you can cause problems that will take longer to fix. Whats the rush ?

IMO the only thing you need to do with a 15 week old pup is house train him, teach the dog his name, teach here, play retrieving games, take the dog for fun time runs, and socialize him.

Larry Lowell

Don · Post by **Don** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:09 pm

I'm guessing that most of you are teaching whoa from the heel. The more I hear, the more I am convinced that the whoa post is superior. Sit is a safe posture. If your dog is sitting on a whoa, it's confused and reacting to pressure. I use a whoa post and never worry about teaching sit and whoa together. Two different commands are taught two completely different ways.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 4:24 am

Don; I've never really given that much thought. I've always taught all of my dogs to sit and whoa from heel. The more I think about what you're saying, the more sense it makes to me. Next one I get, I'm gonna try your way. It's one of those things I never really thought about, but makes all the sense in the world to me. I would never have a dog not trained to sit, and see no reason too.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 4:43 am

Don,

I'm turned off to teaching sit before the dog is steadied on birds due to one experience with a friend's dog.

The dog had not been trained to whoa from heel. The issue was that the dog had been trained for competitive obedience. In other words, "the automatic sit". And I mean it was automatic.

In fact it was beyond the automatic sit. Every time you looked at the dog, it would sit. Every time it stopped for any reason, it sat. And it was very ingrained.

It was then very natural for this dog to tend to sit on point. It wasn't confused with the whoa command, it was just having trouble unlearning that it was supposed to sit every time is stopped for anything.

So, I think you're absolutely correct about confusing automatic sit on heel and teaching whoa from heel. It's would obviously confuse a dog.

But my experience with this one dog, however, has led me to believe that over-training on sit can cause problems also.

For what it's worth, Greg J.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 4:53 am

But Gregg, that's true of training any command. If it is done to excess, it can create a problem. Ballance. Training is all ballance, repetition, and consistancy. If any one of those things is not in ballance, problems arrise. I have always like the great old retriever trainer, Charlie Morgan's quote that "Training a dog was nothing more than replacing a greater problem with a lesser problem until there are as few problems as possible". When you stop and think about it, he was right 50 years ago and he's right today and it doesn't matter what breed you're discussing.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 5:26 am

gonehuntin' wrote:But Gregg, that's true of training any command. If it is done to excess, it can create a problem. Ballance. Training is all ballance, repetition, and consistancy. If any one of those things is not in ballance, problems arrise. I have always like the great old retriever trainer, Charlie Morgan's quote that "Training a dog was nothing more than replacing a greater problem with a lesser problem until there are as few problems as possible". When you stop and think about it, he was right 50 years ago and he's right today and it doesn't matter what breed you're discussing.

I agree that it's true of any command. Never said it wasn't.

The only place that we differ in opinion is due to our different focus.

You hunt waterfowl and thus need dogs to sit in a blind. I only hunt upland and trial and thus don't need the dogs to sit.

Best, Greg J.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 5:51 am

That's true Gregg. I also have mine with me all day at work so do require her to sit and down when I'm with customer's. "Different strokes for different folks". Sorry, that's the best I could come up with.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:06 am

gonehuntin' wrote:That's true Gregg. I also have mine with me all day at work so do require her to sit and down when I'm with customer's.

I would too. Our pet/hunting/all-around dog is very much the same.

I don't think we or anyone else would avoid teaching a dog something that they need or conversely waste time teaching a dog things that they don't need. What do they need? Therein lies the rub.

My real worry is people shorting the birds and practice hunting because they think they are getting what they need in obedience classes, wing on a string, bumpers with wings/scent, etc.

Best regards, Greg J.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:09 am

Agree totally Gregg. When all the BS is said and done, it takes birds to make a bird dog and there's no shorting that.

Don · Post by **Don** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:41 am

Greg Jennings wrote:The dog had not been trained to whoa from heel. The issue was that the dog had been trained for competitive obedience. In other words, "the automatic sit". And I mean it was automatic.

Intresting you should mention that. Many years ago whlie I was into springers, I had a real nice female that was well obedience trained, would hup to flush and loved birds. A handler from Seattle told me she would do good in the show ring so I let him take her to three shows in Washington. Three straight weekend's. She was the only dog that placed in every show and the handler said her problem was she was paying to much attention to birds flying around and everytime he stopped to stack her, she'd sit! He wanted me to leave her with him to show, said he could finish her easy. But I wanted to hunt so she went home with me!

DakotaRed · Post by **DakotaRed** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:39 am

Thanks for the replys, I have never once told her to sit she does it all on her own. I am not to worried about hard core training yet just trying to stop a problem before it one comes up. Right now all I am doing with her is house breaking her and doing the woha command. I will try the cc around the flank.

hjackson · Post by **hjackson** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:50 pm

we hear this alot with the conformation training also.
ALL of our dogs are taught to sit and down. I teach it withOUT a leash and no tugging on the collar. I have never had a problem with them sitting when they are suppose to be something else unless they are being brats about something

We also have never had one of our dogs sit on a point and they are novicely trained by us.

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:05 pm

hjackson, do you train your dogs steady to wing shot and fall?

Don · Post by **Don** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:17 pm

DakotaRed wrote: I am not to worried about hard core training yet just trying to stop a problem before it one comes up. Right now all I am doing with her is house breaking her and doing the woha command. I will try the cc around the flank.

You said your pup is 15mos old? You might well create a problem with what your talking about that you'll have to fix later. House break her, let her run and explore, teach her her name (that means to come when called) and teach her to stay to the front. No matter what method you use to teach whoa, some pressure will be applied, no matter how slight. Do her a favor and leave whoa alone for now. Give her another 4 to 8 mos.

Hotpepper · Post by **Hotpepper** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 3:04 pm

With a dog that is going to be field trialed, if they are found on point and are sitting down, the judge will just have the handler put a rope on them

At the competetive level of field trialing, there is not place for the sit command.

I personally use it for my lab and house dog but not my shorthairs.

Pepper

parshal · Post by **parshal** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 3:15 pm

Everyone keeps talking about sit causing future problems when the dog is on point. I've only worked with two dogs that would sit on point and both, incidentally, were owned by the same person. Both sat when confused during the steadying process. They did not point and then sit.

I don't teach sit not because I'm afraid the dog will sit on point. I don't teach sit anymore because they sit to relieve pressure. So, when more advanced training begins and the dog receives more pressure they are more likely to sit. Force fetch is a time when this shows up or when steadying a dog. So, for me, I don't teach it for fear of sitting on point but to remove the possible future problem of how they deal with pressure. Lifting them off the table when they sit distracts from the task at hand (teaching FF or whatever it is your teaching).

DakotaRed · Post by **DakotaRed** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 3:21 pm

No she is 15 WEEKS old

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 3:22 pm

I think that is what everyone is saying. What they mean is the dog will sit on point when you are trying to steady the dog. IT's the pressure that does it.

Ezzy

parshal · Post by **parshal** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 3:27 pm

I agree that's why the dog is sitting but someone who's not trained a dog before will just see "the dog sits on point" not realizing that the dog will sit when pressure is applied.

DakotaRed · Post by **DakotaRed** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 4:30 pm

You said your pup is 15mos old? You might well create a problem with what your talking about that you'll have to fix later. House break her, let her run and explore, teach her her name (that means to come when called) and teach her to stay to the front. No matter what method you use to teach whoa, some pressure will be applied, no matter how slight. Do her a favor and leave whoa alone for now. Give her another 4 to 8 mos.

no she is 15 weeks.

Maybe I am dense and not understanding you all. So you all think I should stop all woah traing? I do it when I let her out of her kennel, playing fetch, and feeding. When we are outside I let her explore and work only on getting her to come when called. Am I doing to much?

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 4:36 pm

I'm with Don on the whoa thing. I don't believe husbands or dogs learn anything through continual nagging. Wait till they are ready and then git r done.

parshal · Post by **parshal** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 4:41 pm

DakotaRed wrote:So you all think I should stop all woah traing? I do it when I let her out of her kennel, playing fetch, and feeding.

I do the same thing with my puppies. However, I do not use the word whoa or any other command. I just open the kennel door and if they come out I tell them no and put them back. I then give them a release command and allow them out. This lets them know from day one that there are boundaries and that I am boss. I do this only when I open the kennel door or the door from the house to the backyard. I do not do it when playing. I let them be a pup when they are playing and required no obedience. They learn self control at an early age and that self control is not associated with any command. It makes whoa and steadiness that much easier when they are older.

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:39 am

If I made my dog sit on point then I'm the one needs a good wrist slapping.
If I made my dog sit when the bird flushed then it wasn't on point any more, bird gone.

Marg

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:50 pm

Dakota at this age whoa training is fine but keep it light. What I do with dogs of that age is when we are fixing to start a work out of any kind I take them on lead to the line, tell them whoa and make them stand still for just a few seconds before we begin. Nothing more is needed and it will soon build with repetition.

What I like to do then is let them have a free romp for a few minutes, call them back in, do it again, and I may well repeat it two or three times before we start bird work or whatever is planned. That way you are teching the dog that you're in charge and you're also leting the puppy run off some energy where they can then better maintain focus for the "training" you have planned.

Remember a four month old puppy normally has about the same attention span as a three to five year old child, so you are working against nature and common sense to demand their focused attention right off the bat when they are full of energy, as well as to expect it to last more than a few minutes at a time.

Too much discipline too early takes the fun out of being a puppy and won't help them develop as birddogs any faster. CR

GSPinROCH · Post by **GSPinROCH** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:55 am

I am by no means an expert, but have taught all my dogs to sit, and they are all whoa broke too, now I just like my dogs to do what I say in and outside the house and I usually have the sit or lay down in the house in a specific spot inside the kitchen area so that they dont run around too much with the newborn in the house...once the kid is older they willl have free run..