Color Genetics - Black Dominant?

[Greg Jennings]

Don't want to drag up the black gsp thing again, but I do have a genetics question.

Short and sweet: is black dominant? Would it be possible to breed a black and white patched and ticked male to a liver roan female and get a liver and white pup?

Best, Greg J.

[snips]

Yep.

[Greg Jennings]

yes to which question?

Is it possible to breed a black and white, patched and ticked male to a liver and roan female and get a liver and white male pup?

Best, Greg J.

[original mngsp]

Greg

I think the answer to your question is yes. Boomer's sire is Black & White and his dam is White & Liver Patched & Ticked.

[rkalgren]

The short answers don't quite explain the genetics.
If the one parent is black it has two possibilities, it could have two dominant alleles or one dominant and one recessive allel to the color gene. If the black dog has both allels dominant, than only black pups are possible. If the black dog has one dominant and one recessive alle than both black pups and liver pups are possible.

My point is there is no short answer.

[Greg Jennings]

So, basically, you have a heterozygous black male bred to a homozygous liver female and results in the probability of some homozygous liver and white pups?

I haven't paid much attention to this because I really don't care much about the issue. In this case, it came up when a friend asked about a specific litter and I'm trying to help him make a good buying decision.

Best, Greg J.

[WildRose]

GSP color genetics aren't the same as a lot of other breeds.

In order to have a truely genetically black pup you MUST have one black parent.

You can breed two black parents together and still come up with liver pups.

You can breed one black parent and come up with either black or liver.

The exception to this is that you can breed two liver dogs (Liver meaning not black, not referring to solid, or any specific pattern) and still get an occasional pup that appears to be black for all intents and purposes but it's actually genetically just an extremely dark liver, not a true black. CR

[RCB]

Can a gsp come out tri-color (ex. liver, white, and tan)? I was told that it was not possible, but I have seen tri-color brits and setters.

[RCB]

Took me a while but I found the picture of the pup and it does look like a tan mark. I wonder if he is right and it is a birth mark? I have seen human birth marks that alter the persons hair color so why not on dogs.

[winchestermodel50]

My black and white female is from a cross between a liver and tick and a black and white. When I have mated her to a similarly bred dog, 3/4 of the pups were black and white. The others were liver and white. My current litter is from this same black and white female and a liver and white male out of Tonelli's Rising Sun. 2/3 of the pups are black and white and the rest are liver and white. These are probably pretty reasonable percentages to expect. Black seems to be as dominant as brown eyes tend to be. There are 8 pups left for sale in this litter if anyone is interested.

[Ayres]

My black and white female is from a cross between a liver and tick and a black and white. When I have mated her to a similarly bred dog, 3/4 of the pups were black and white. The others were liver and white. My current litter is from this same black and white female and a liver and white male out of Tonelli's Rising Sun. 2/3 of the pups are black and white and the rest are liver and white. These are probably pretty reasonable percentages to expect. Black seems to be as dominant as brown eyes tend to be. There are 8 pups left for sale in this litter if anyone is interested.

The only problem is, you can't expect anything to be in "reasonable percentages" when it comes to genetics. If you have a black dog that is carrying a liver gene (designated "Bb") and it is bred to a liver dog (designated "bb"), each puppy has a 50% chance of being black or liver. This absolutely does not mean that 50% of the litter will be black, 50% liver, because the probability resets on each puppy. You can end up with a litter of entirely black or entirely liver dogs out of such a cross.

Think of it as in getting a male or a female. Genetically, there's a 50% chance that each of your offspring will be male. However, a family might have 7 boys and 1 girl. That's just the way genetics go.

[Ayres]

Short and sweet, Greg, black is dominant over liver; white ticking is recessive to a solid. I'm sure you have the rest covered with the punnett squares. Hope that helps.



Edited to correct misstatement.

[hoffmann35]

The pup in my avatar came from a solid liver male and a solid black female. She threw 3 solid blacks 5 solid livers and 2 liver roans. A weird litter to say the least.

[Gayla Salvati]

Short and sweet, Greg, black is dominant over liver; white ticking is dominant over a solid. I'm sure you have the rest covered with the punnett squares. Hope that helps.

There's an "oopsie" here. Solid is dominant over ticking.

So, basically, you have a heterozygous black male bred to a homozygous liver female and results in the probability of some homozygous liver and white pups?

FWIW, all liver colored GSPs are homozygous; and yes, the probability of liver pups would be about half of them.

[snips]

Yep to you can get white from b/w crossed to liver ticked.

[AHGSP]

http://www.dogstuff.info/mating_outcomes_gsp_byrne.html

Pay attention to #7 & #22

[snips]

I love pictures! Thanks! And, I saw a tru, tri-color at a hunt test, tan legs and all.

[Greg Jennings]

FWIW, all liver colored GSPs are homozygous; and yes, the probability of liver pups would be about half of them.

Thank you. Once I understood that it was a single locus, dominant/recessive deal it was pretty simple.

As said, I do not give a rip about color, and wanted to make sure that my friend that is buying isn't going to get into "wrong DNA issues".

Best regards, Greg J.

[Ayres]

Short and sweet, Greg, black is dominant over liver; white ticking is dominant over a solid. I'm sure you have the rest covered with the punnett squares. Hope that helps.

There's an "oopsie" here. Solid is dominant over ticking.

Yep, my mistake. I was concentrating too hard on the liver vs. black. We ain't got to worry about ticking with vizslas.

[Theresa]

All this punett square business and mendelian squares sound so logical. Chances are could be right on, too.

I do know that despite the best laid plans, sometimes genetics happens -and those lil recessives hiding in the woodpile nick, and you got yourself a heavily ticked liver tan point on your hands....

The onliest way to know what a pair will produce is to cross them. And then you know what you got that first cross...

[ezzy333]

Theresa,

There is no doubt we know what a given pair will produce if we know what genes they carry. It has been spelled out here very clearly. It is true you could get a mutant but that happens once in a million or so and those are not really genetic or predictable.

But my point is genetics do not just happen. They are set once we know what we are working with we can predict what a given pair of dogs will produce.

Thank God for that or we wouldn't have breeds.

Ezzy

[cancrkkennels]

Purely anecdotal, but just for fun. The litter we just had was out of a b/w female and l/w male. We had 3 b/w pups and 3 l/w pups. Incidentally, only one male. Crazy.

[ezzy333]

That would be the normal or should say average expectation when the B/W is carrying the recessive liver gene.

Ezzy

[Theresa]

Ezzy -I defer to your experience in the matter.

I didn't read it the way you did; I didn't see that it was known what was behind the two dogs in question, and what they carry in recessive.

My experience, even when knowing the colors of the sire and dam and two sets of grandparents and 4 sets of great grandparents, is... genetics happens. And that a second cross off the same pair has proven to produce surprises.

Hehe.. one day maybe I'll have a clue (but for now I am just content to have healthy dogs that have color!)

[whiteruger]

so I am getting a Black & White gsp pup, out of a solid liver & A solid black, if we use him for stud & breed to a liver & tick what will we get??? A little of each?

[AHGSP]

so I am getting a Black & White gsp pup, out of a solid liver & A solid black, if we use him for stud & breed to a liver & tick what will we get??? A little of each?

http://www.dogstuff.info/mating_outcomes_gsp_byrne.html

Look at no.7 in the breeding outcomes. Should be about 50/50 Black Ticked/Liver Ticked.