female eating pups?????

birdogg42 · Post by **birdogg42** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 10:36 am

well my female(EP) finally had her pups yesterday at 11:30am. My neighbor went over to check on her and he had a pup hanging out of her and she was jumping all over the place. The pup then fell out of her, she stepped on it, picked it up and threw the pup up in the air and then ate it. So she called me and i came home from work. 1:15pm she had another one, she wanted to eat it too. I quickly got the pup from her and she went to the other side of kennel and stood. I then took the pup and let it nurse a little. Both of them did real well and everything then i let her smell the pup in my hand and she licked it and turned her head. Then she laid down and i put the pup with her and she bit the pup! NOT aggressively, but like she thought it was food. So 4:25 came and no more pups. I called the vet at 4:45 to see how long is too long, well the vet said that over an hour is too long. So i took her to the vet, did an ultra sound and still a couple pups to go. She give Kate a shot of oxytocin???? Then two minutes later two blk and wht females. We seperated them as well. Another 45 minutes and no pups. took an x-ray and there was still two pups inside her. Well i went home and told the vet to call me if she had the pups and i would come and get them. well at 9:15 pm the vet called me and said she had two more. One she ate half of and the other she cleaned up and was not harmed.

Theresa · Post by **Theresa** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 10:44 am

How old is the gyp?

Sounds like an inexperienced first time mother.

I have never had nor heard of a female that ate pups like that. My experience is that a dam will kill pups if there is something wrong with them, and also eat the dead ones.

How many do you have total that survived? Is she caring for them normally at present?

Dirtysteve · Post by **Dirtysteve** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 10:48 am

I had an EP that did the same thing. I ended up saving two and after a few days put them back with her. She ate one more so I took the last and bottle feed.
After that I had the dog spayed and sold her.

birdogg42 · Post by **birdogg42** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 10:50 am

Then the vet could still feel something inside her. well took another ultrasound and one more heart beat!!!! So she got another shot of oxytocin and i brought her home and she had the last pup (so i thought!!!) in my dog box in my truck. It was cleaned up and all the afterbirth was completely gone. But the pup was completely unharmed. well i took her to the kennel and she had another one while she was walking! so i have three blk and wht females and one blk and wht male and one org and wht male. so looks like i will be botttle feeding these little boogers.

3forme · Post by **3forme** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 10:56 am

Thats too bad! Sometimes animals do strange things, good luck with the nursing and all you will have your hands full for sure kudos for doing the right thing.

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 11:27 am

Sounds like an inexperienced first time mother.

Sounds like a bitch who should never be bred again. Not something you want passed on to the pups.

My suggestion: Do you have a buddy who has pups that aren't weaned yet? Your puppies NEED to be with a mother. She will teach them some special lessons. Find a bitch who is willing to nurse them and adopt them.

zodiakgsps · Post by **zodiakgsps** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 11:41 am

I had a friend who had a Britt bitch do this 2 days after whelping....she was perfectly fine & then ate 2 pups, for no apparent reason. She seemed fine with the rest so they let her stay with them & she ate another that night.
After that, they kept her seperated & held her to nurse the pups several times daily, she showed no aggression towards the pups while the owners were there when nursing, but they never left her unattended again, remaining pups lived & all were fine, she was a first time mother.
I agree this is very unusual for them to eat healthy pups, but not unheard of. My mother had a Great Dane years ago that did the same thing. CherrystoneWeims is right on, try to find a surrogate to nurse them, you'd be surprised at how many mothers will take over another litter.

snips · Post by **snips** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 11:43 am

What a nightmare!!! I would muzzle that bitch for a couple of days and sit with them while they nursed. You need to have the first milk in them for antibodies. Then would probably be easier to tube feed them. Get your vet to show you how.

KY Grouse Hunter · Post by **KY Grouse Hunter** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 11:54 am

That is the most unbelievable thing I have every heard dog wise. Wonder what made the mother eat those pups?

Post by **kninebirddog** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 12:06 pm

wow would also muzzle and make her nurse what you can to get the pups the needed antibodies from her colostrum as snips suggested but also keep her seperated and have her spayed

there are some that are like that and JMHO FWIW I would also not consider any of the females from her to be good canidates for brood bitches either as many of these traits are more common from dams that do this then ones that are normal

also an hour is not to long I have had females go over 2 hours between a couple pups about half way through whelping it is natures way to let them rest and restore energy to have the rest of the pups ..as LONG as they are NOT contracting to get a pup out, let them rest...every vet i have been with said when it hits about the 2 hour mark to call and at 3 hours maybe go ahead and bring them in again this is as long as they are not contracting trying to push if they are just resting maybe get them up and walking around also helps to get things moving along

but if they are contracting and pushing and nothing is coming out for an hour then yes by all means get them in

Windyhills · Post by **Windyhills** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 12:16 pm

Not common, but I don't think this is all that unusual. I know of someone who had something similar happen.

How well was this mother isolated from other dogs during whelping? The presence of other dogs in the whelping area is one concern tied to this behavior.

I also wonder if the presence of strangers at whelping time might have contributed to this. How well did your bitch know your neighbor? Best if it all possible to be there yourself when whelping occurs, and keep just about everyone else other than known, close family away.

I'm not sure this behavior is repeated often--I would not assume a second litter (assuming the bitch is outstanding and worth breeding again) would automatically lead to similar problems, particularly if she does a good job or caring for the surviving pups now--and especially if it appears the bitch may have been very uncomfortable with strange people or dogs present at whelping. Something to discuss with an experienced vet.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 12:29 pm

friend of mine got a wel bred EP bitch she had eaten her first litter that is how they got her...she ate half her second litter before they seperated her they kept a female guess what...she also ate her first pup but then they were ready and did the muzzle idea

I know of quite a few others same thing

being in a strange area can lead to it also...but even though if I have a bitch that will eat her young I will not use her again unless there was something evidently wrong with the pup ...to many good ones out that won't eat their young and are very good mothers that also show all the desired traits a person wants in their breeding program

Addict · Post by **Addict** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 12:35 pm

Growing up we had a basset hound that ate half of her first litter.

Addict

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 2:00 pm

This is normally a sign the female is feverish or has a hormone inbalance for some reason and they end up out of their head for a while. I would never make the judgement to not breed her again unless she repeats the same behavior the next time she is bred. I think anyone or any animal should be given a second chance before making the final dicision.

In this case it sounds like she had some hormone problems and even though I wouldn't trust her I would bet she would be OK with the pups now. I would do like Brenda said and muzzle her for a few days at least and then observe for a few more at the very least.

Ezzy

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 3:35 pm

Birddog you never did make a couple of important things clear here.

How old is the bitch?

Is it her first litter?

Was she completely away from other dogs during the whelping?

Young bitches can occasionally just freak out over their first few pups the first time they whelp. Normally as long as they are in a quiet place away from other dogs and you are there to supervise once the pups start to suck the female usually relaxes and everything is fine from that point on.

I've never had one that really seemed determined to eat her pups though as this bitch appeared/appears to be.

I'd definitely vote for muzzling her and supervising for a few days and if she seems to be ok then take the muzzle off and see how it goes.

If after two to three days though she still is heck bent on eating them and she's not showing any signs of ill health this would be her last litter for sure if she were mine.

It's too easy to make excuses for the faults in our dogs just because we "think" they are something special instead of removing them from the gene pool when it needs to be done. Those are just the hard choices you have to make sometimes as a breeder.

I would also warn any buyers of the females that this problem exists so that they can consider it in the future when trying to decide whether or not to breed them down the line. CR

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:09 pm

I would agree with you Charlie if you cn show me one sign that her behavior is genetic in nature. Your's as well as my reasons this might have happened was environmental or nutritional. T don't think those are reasons to cull on a one time basis.

Ezzy

highcotton · Post by **highcotton** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:22 pm

I agree with the muzzle.

When I was just a kid I noticed my dad giving bitches small bits of raw calfs liver during whelping. When I asked him why, he said "so they won't eat the puppies". There is no scientific proof, that I am aware of, to support it helping (or harming) the process but I have always done it. The only reason I have for it is because it's the way my daddy did it. I have had some females to push a puppy aside and I think that is nature's way of taking care of problems. But, in over 30 years I have never had a bitch offer to eat a puppy.

Sonny Hawkins · Post by **Sonny Hawkins** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:30 pm

Sounds like the same problem that I had years ago. The Doc said it was a Chemical Inbalance. :roll: Sonny

highcotton · Post by **highcotton** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:38 pm

Sonny, Was he talking about you or your dog?

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:41 pm

Ezzy it's just the way I would do it in my own kennel. One reason people keep coming back to me year after year, dog after dog is the fact that they know how carefully I cull to avoid ever repeating problems I think even MIGHT be genetic.

There are many things which can be a combination of environmental, nutritional, and genetic which are just very very hard to get a definitive handle on. For me there are just too many good dogs to choose from to take a chance on repeating a breeding that has already shown me to have faults.

Even if it's a hormonal or situational problem, if she doesn't get over it in a few days I'm going to lean towards there being a genetic component as well which I would therefore not want to take a chance on repeating. CR

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:48 pm

I noticed my dad giving bitches small bits of raw calfs liver during whelping. When I asked him why, he said "so they won't eat the puppies".

The reason for feeding the liver is to supplement the iron and nutrition lost during whelp. This is why it is good for bitches to eat the placentas.

I agree with Wild Rose. I am also of the opinion to not take chances of ANY genetic defects.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:03 pm

I too agree to not take chances and have always bred with that in mind.

Ezzy

Post by **kninebirddog** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:07 pm

WildRose wrote:Ezzy it's just the way I would do it in my own kennel. One reason people keep coming back to me year after year, dog after dog is the fact that they know how carefully I cull to avoid ever repeating problems I think even MIGHT be genetic.

There are many things which can be a combination of environmental, nutritional, and genetic which are just very very hard to get a definitive handle on. For me there are just too many good dogs to choose from to take a chance on repeating a breeding that has already shown me to have faults.

Even if it's a hormonal or situational problem, if she doesn't get over it in a few days I'm going to lean towards there being a genetic component as well which I would therefore not want to take a chance on repeating. CR

Agree completely

I also do not need a bitch that gets over active to environmental or nutritional issues as that also effects the pups..nuerotic behaviors pass on even if you seperate at whelping...had a litter with a female that had isues after whelping and I seperated her let another more level headed female raise the pups ...later on one of the females was bred...she displayed the same traits as her mother Thankfully that breeder fixed her and sold all the pups o a spay nueter contract to average hunters was sad the pedigrees were nice but it was a learning experience for me and the others who were involved in this litter. all had what we wanted in the field but as stated to many good normal dogs to excuse breeding to ones that have issues and make kennel blind excuses for

birdogg42 · Post by **birdogg42** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:33 pm

WildRose, she is two years old. This is her first litter. she had two dogs on each side of her kennel. My Grandfather has the litter and the mother. We laid her on her side and she let them nurse today. I sat with her and just rubbed her head. So since i have to work every day and have a 10 month old daughter. He can make sure they nurse off of her during the day and get bottle fed during the night. Hopefully she take to them and every thing will be allright.

Sonny Hawkins · Post by **Sonny Hawkins** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:54 am

Highcotton--------------- I think he was talking about both of us. :roll: :roll: :roll: Sonny

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 11:43 am

That's what I thought. You have two things working against you that can commonly lead to this type of problem. The fact she was between the two other bitches and her being so young along with the fact it's her first litter.

Just like sometimes with natural retrievers if you have three dogs going for the same bird, occasionaly the first dog on the scene will eat the bird rather than giving it up to the other two, the situation you had her in can cause her to act inappropriately.

If you now have her away from the other bitches she should settle down and take to the pups just fine. If not then I'd seriously suggest this be her last litter and would be very leary of breeding any bitches she'd produced.

As something of a side note trust me I know how you feel. I once bought a bred bitch that was supposed to be something very special carrying the last litter ever out of a particular National Champion. Out of that litter she killed all but three of the pups because she had some sort of neurosis about over cleaning the stump of the umbilical cord. She just kept nibbling and licking at them util there were big open wounds where the navel should have formed and they bled out. This happened over the course of about three days when I was gone and my "kennel help" didn't recognize the problem.

I took a gambel and bred her again a year later. Sure enough she repeated the same bizzare behavior. That was her last litter. Because I felt like the line had so much to offer I bred one of her daughters from the first litter I'd kept. She was even worse, she quickly left the gene pool forever.

I kept one of the daughters from the second and last litter and while she's a nervous and over attentive mother she's fine as long as she gets to have them in the house with us and we just watch her closely for the first day or so. She's never tried to eat one or killed one with the over cleaning but it is something I have to be mindful of.

So you see I know how it feels to be in such a predicament!

Best wishes and I hope it all works out well for you now. CR

birdogg42 · Post by **birdogg42** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:10 pm

she is with my grandfather now and she is in the house and is doing fine. she lays there just as calm as could be. so hopefully she will take to the pups. but my grandfather is keeping a close eye on them.

bean1031 · Post by **bean1031** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:48 pm

sounds like you need to up her food amounts!

winchestermodel50 · Post by **winchestermodel50** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:01 pm

My female was fairly large with a first pregnancy. When I checked on her she had one healthy pup, and raised it beautifully. I don't know if the others were stillborn, but I think not. She had eaten the other pups. She has been an outstanding mother on her last two large litters. I wouldn't give up on that dog, but I wouldn't sink a big stud fee into her next breeding either.

NE Vizsla · Post by **NE Vizsla** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 12:08 am

I had a friend that had a rabbitt do that but i have never heard of a dog doing it. I believe whichever one of you talked about chemical inbalance..makes sence to me.

Thats to bad...for those of you who have had pups eaten..did the female pick out the smaller ones, the larger ones, females, males..or didnt seem to care which ones were eaten...any pattern at all ?

birdogg42 · Post by **birdogg42** » Sun Sep 09, 2007 6:56 pm

Just an update, Kate (the mom) has taken to the pups. She cleans them up and really pays attention to them. But i still dont want to take any chances just yet. I might put them with her in a week or two. mike

birdogg42 · Post by **birdogg42** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:34 pm

Well kate has been with her pups now for a week. They are doing great. I guess she just freaked out being beside the other dogs and it being her first litter.

Mike

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:39 pm

Glad it worked out for you. You just never know how a "first time mom" is going to act and when things don't go right if no one is home you may never know what happened.

Next time just make sure she's not in the same situation and she'll probably be fine. CR

birdogg42 · Post by **birdogg42** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:11 pm

you can be "bleep" sure that wont happen

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female eating pups?????

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