English Setter vs. GSP??

GAgrouse · Post by **GAgrouse** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:49 pm

Hello, Im looking for a pup. The question is English Setter vs. GSP??
I primarily hunt grouse(ducks also). I have had one ES who was good in the field, but very head strong and not one for the inside dwellings. I have hunted behind some spectacular English Setters, but Im looking for more of family companion as well. I've trained Labs, Setters, and spaniels but never a GSP.

I'm primarily looking for feedback on the GSP's range,nose, whoa to shot, retrieving, trainabilty and general demeanor, bad habits, what to watch for...etc.

Many thanks!
GAgrouse

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:55 pm

I have hunted over both in the grouse woods. A good grouse dog is a real treasure, not all dogs, regardless of breed, have the native ability to handle grouse well. My best ever at that was a GSP. She had numerous limb finds for us, finds where it would take a few minutes to get to her and the grouse would be walking around in front. However, I have friends with setters and if you find the right setter and train it well, it would be wrong to say that dog could not do the same thing.

The setter is the preferred woods dog for most die hard, get out in the woods alot, grouse hunters. But I would have to say that given the right upbringing and exposure to birds, you can get a great dog out of any of four breeds, the GSP, the Brittany, the setter and the pointer.

whitedogone · Post by **whitedogone** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:49 pm

To me and to countless others a Grouse dog is a setter! Don't get me wrong, I have hunted behind some great shorthairs. When I think of shorthairs I "think" pheasants. And when I "think" of grouse I think of setters. When I think of quail I "think" of pointers AND setters.

http://members3.boardhost.com/coverdog/

Ridgeviewer · Post by **Ridgeviewer** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:50 pm

GAgrouse wrote:I have had one ES who was good in the field, but very head strong and not one for the inside dwellings.
GAgrouse

I'd have to say you had the exception, and not the rule as English Setters go.
My buddy's and I all hunt English Setters, and they all spend time in our houses with our familys. English Setters are known for their love of people and being well mannered in the house.
I can think of one Setter of those I've known that had a funny tendency.. This particular male would Pee on his owner's boot (while he was wearing it) at every opportunity, just as if it were a tire.
I can't tell you how hard the rest of us would laugh when he'd do it!!

Ridge

KY Grouse Hunter · Post by **KY Grouse Hunter** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:17 am

To me setters have always been the model grouse dog. Their the ones you see on the cover of magazines always hunting grouse and they are what I have always had apart from some of my pointers.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:24 am

Everyone on here is forgetting that you're a duck hunter also. An english setter is a horrible duck dog and they were never intended to be one. I do exactly like you; I hunt a variety of birds. My last old setter is dieing now at 14. I've also trained a lot of GSP's.

I personally went with a Draht because they're so good in cold water and great retrieving dog's. But if I limited it to just GSP or Eng. Set., then it's going to be a GSP.

I think the Draht's are better in the house than a GSP also, but that's a personal view.

whitedogone · Post by **whitedogone** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:28 am

gonehuntin' wrote: An english setter is a horrible duck dog and they were never intended to be one. .

That's for sure.

KY Grouse Hunter · Post by **KY Grouse Hunter** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:30 am

agreed. I dont know of one person that has ever tried to make a setter a duck dog?

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:55 am

Well I got to tell ya, The best grouse dog I have hunted over was a french brit second best is my GSP . But up hear I see setters shorthairs, pointers, GWP Griffs. Springers, Labs, etc. Every one says their dogs do well grouse hunting. What makes a great grouse dog is not the breed but the type. ( Granted a dog that just charges through at full tilt will bust a lot of birds they don't even know are there. ) The other major factor is how often you get your dog on grouse. Once I have all my yard work and reliable field work done, I move my training to the woods starting on chuckars then to wild birds. In my mind, trying to get them to hunt for birds in grouse like cover gives an advantage when hunting season starts. Just my thoughts on that part.

When I go to the NSTRA trials in VA there are a lot of Setters. When we are sitting in the blind the setters almost always are in the laps of their owners. Setters are nice dogs ,not great water dogs.. GSP's are nice and great water dogs. I am assuming you are in Georgia? If so, no weather in GA, you could throw out at a GSP would bother it.

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:06 am

Sorry got off subject some.

The GSP has a great nose very diverse. But most dogs have good noses it is more how they use the info. They range differently like other breeds.
They are intellegent, perhaps one of the easier breeds to train for a novice (fool proof, kind of.). Most all have strong drive. The steadiness is a training issue mostly. There coats are great because you don't get a lot of crap in them when hunting thicket and briars. They dry off quickly in a duck boat. I think they are very focused animals.

When I went to Missouir in 04 for the NAVHDA invitaitonal Mercy my now VC, GSP was laying on my nephews lap most of the way. At work she climbs up in any ones lap that will have her. Sweet, intelligent, hard hunting, easy to train.

The Zephyr · Post by **The Zephyr** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:54 am

I hunt my shorthairs on grouse and woodcock with a friend who hunts his FDSB setters.
These are my observations on the two breeds.
The setter probably has a better nose. Ranges farther (up to 1/4 mile). At times we will hunt for the setter or at least a glimpse of his bloody tail. He will usually be standing birds when we find him.

My shorthairs range 25-75 yds., constantly quartering and checking back. The shorthairs don't stand as distant to the birds as the setter and the flush will usually be sooner, so it's nice to stay with them.

As far as retrieving is concerned, my friend's setter will make water retrieves but I think this dog is probably an anomaly in that regard.

When it's time to make a tough retrieve he will ask me to bring in the old girl. She will put her nose to the ground (gasp) and track. She's brought back more than one grouse sans tail feathers as she chases runners till they are caught.

Perhaps other lines of setters would be closer working, but these are the inherent qualities of the dogs we run.

John L.

longranger · Post by **longranger** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:20 pm

Zephyr
I Know exactly which bloddy tailed dog you are talking about, thanks for the compliment, see you in New Hampshire 2nd week in November to get everything we missed this year.

Pleasant Ridge · Post by **Pleasant Ridge** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 6:29 pm

Either dog is competent just make sure you get the dog from a breeding that has produced grouse dogs in the past. If you are duck hunting you need to lean toward the GSP.................

nj gsp · Post by **nj gsp** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:06 pm

I'm not sure why I have the impression, but I always thought setters were close-working dogs?

AT2 · Post by **AT2** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:28 pm

I think I saw some Gordon Setters on TV that were close but they were hunting grouse in thick woods.

whitedogone · Post by **whitedogone** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 6:34 am

NJ GSP wrote:I'm not sure why I have the impression, but I always thought setters were close-working dogs?

I have never hunted one that was. All of mine cover twice the ground of all the GSP'ers I've had the pleasure to hunt behind. WDO

The Zephyr · Post by **The Zephyr** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 7:30 am

The range of different lines of setters can be pretty significant. The Llewellyn and Hemlock are probably what people think of as a close working grouse dog.
The cover dogs used in grouse and woodcock trials are the next in range,similar to my friends dog. Grouse Ridge and some of the kennels in the northeast campaign these dogs.
My buddy with the setters also has four out west in Idaho. Some are all-age dogs ranging up to a mile out. Tecoma Sunrise (sp). is the breeding on those dogs. They run 'em on chukar and grouse.
So just like other breeds there is something for everyone.

longranger · Post by **longranger** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:39 pm

The Zephyr wrote:The range of different lines of setters can be pretty significant. The Llewellyn and Hemlock are probably what people think of as a close working grouse dog.
The cover dogs used in grouse and woodcock trials are the next in range,similar to my friends dog. Grouse Ridge and some of the kennels in the northeast campaign these dogs.
My buddy with the setters also has four out west in Idaho. Some are all-age dogs ranging up to a mile out. Tecoma Sunrise (sp). is the breeding on those dogs. They run 'em on chukar and grouse.
So just like other breeds there is something for everyone.

Mav&Lizzy · Post by **Mav&Lizzy** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:34 am

The Zephyr wrote:The range of different lines of setters can be pretty significant. The Llewellyn and Hemlock are probably what people think of as a close working grouse dog.
The cover dogs used in grouse and woodcock trials are the next in range,similar to my friends dog. Grouse Ridge and some of the kennels in the northeast campaign these dogs.
My buddy with the setters also has four out west in Idaho. Some are all-age dogs ranging up to a mile out. Tecoma Sunrise (sp). is the breeding on those dogs. They run 'em on chukar and grouse.
So just like other breeds there is something for everyone.

You haven't seen too many Llewellyn's work if you think they are close working. I've got one and he works further out than any setter I've ever had!! Great dog that holds his points so I don't mind but man does he get out there and cover the ground!!

highcotton · Post by **highcotton** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:35 pm

Mav&Lizzy wrote:
The Zephyr wrote:The range of different lines of setters can be pretty significant. The Llewellyn and Hemlock are probably what people think of as a close working grouse dog.
The cover dogs used in grouse and woodcock trials are the next in range,similar to my friends dog. Grouse Ridge and some of the kennels in the northeast campaign these dogs.
My buddy with the setters also has four out west in Idaho. Some are all-age dogs ranging up to a mile out. Tecoma Sunrise (sp). is the breeding on those dogs. They run 'em on chukar and grouse.
So just like other breeds there is something for everyone.
You haven't seen too many Llewellyn's work if you think they are close working. I've got one and he works further out than any setter I've ever had!! Great dog that holds his points so I don't mind but man does he get out there and cover the ground!!

Mav is right....and I have seen a lot of Llewellins work....seems we will never get rid of the "foot hunting dogs like grandpa hunted" label. :lol

Setters are not geared up for water work so I would go with the GSP.

The Zephyr · Post by **The Zephyr** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:55 pm

NJGSP wrote:[/quote]I'm not sure why I have the impression, but I always thought setters were close-working dogs?

Where upon I responded with the statement:

The Llewellyn and Hemlock are probably what people think of as a close working grouse dog.

Notice the words PROBABLY and THINK and that the are referencing what "people" seem to believe is a close-working setter.

Mav&Lizzy wrote:

You haven't seen too many Llewellyn's work if you think they are close working.
Although I have seen quite a few setters work. I can't say for sure that you and I were watching the same dogs. Could you?

And High Cotton reinforced this perception of the Hemlock line when he wrote:

seems we will never get rid of the "foot hunting dogs like grandpa hunted" label.

I think your repsonses should be positive as well as informative.

Anybody else wanna step up and flog the horse while it's still dead?

Mav&Lizzy · Post by **Mav&Lizzy** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:59 pm

Ok sorry for misunderstanding. Its just that that thought is probably one of the most inaccurate thoughts in bird dogs today. A few people have chosen to market their dogs that way and everyone thinks they are that way. As with any others you can breed to get whatever you want but in all honesty I'd bet there are more big running Llewellyns than there are close working ones like mine. But, also like mine, I believe the Llewellyn is very adaptable in its range depending on the handler and the cover!

The Zephyr · Post by **The Zephyr** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:11 pm

Thank you,

If you read my past posts I enjoy the attributes of all breeds. But there is definitely something special when I find my friend's setter staunchly pointing woodcock on a side hill of young evergreens.

John L.

longranger · Post by **longranger** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:05 pm

i learn someting from the best dog breeders and pros runing field trial dog around . ones i ask pete flanagan at a trial about english pointers did hi like them and hi said too me good dog is a good dog. everybody know that is the true. i personaly like english setters they make my day when i see one of my dog pointing grouse with 12o' clock, but i will take any good dog with tail or no tail too hunt behind.

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