Pointing Dog Titles

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:22 pm

I've seen just as much drive in dogs at HT's

Anne, when I made that comment I didn't mean "all" dogs at HT's. I meant dogs who I would pass in a SH or a MH test. (I've been known to fail quite a few dogs because they won't hunt. I don't care how "mannerly" they are.) Quite a few people in my area CAN'T trial their dogs due to not having the ability to train from horseback. I've had the problem myself. Land is restricted, small tracts of land, and GATORS. I have a place available to me with 100's of acres and the girl lets me use her horses but I don't dare go there until winter because the place is loaded with gators and my dogs will jump into the lake at the first chance they get to cool off.

Charlie, when I look at dogs I also look for biddable dogs. The last dog that I bred my bitch to is a NFC/NAFC/DC/MH. That MH tells me that he is a biddable dog too in addition to having lots of drive. I also liked what I saw in his offspring. He is producing the drive and great temperament. In fact I saw one of his sons have a dog try to go after him and he didn't want to fight. He just wanted to keep hunting.

When I look at dogs at HT's I also look for a dog who has that grit. I don't like the robot dogs who are just going through the motions. I like a combination of a dog who can be trained for MH and who has the drive to become a FC.

LOL Even my bitch who I am running in MH keeps me on my toes. I sweat it when we test. I know her. I know how competitive she is over the birds. If a dog doesn't back her and steals her point or rips out her bird she becomes VERY possessive of the birds she finds. She will do everything in her power to get that bird first. Many times she is running on the edge and almost out of control. The little voice in my head is saying "oh I can't see you what are you getting into! But we get through because I have gotten to the point where I can read her and I know how to handle those issues. She's even been known to try to steal another dog's bird when she is backing through a retrieve. Tried to steal it right from his mouth She's a little witch sometimes!

This is the kind of dog I LIKE. Many times I take her out and run her on wild or early release birds and just let her hunt. No pressure just letting her be a bird dog. In fact I ran her 3 days before our last HT (she passed the first day) with an EP ex-FT dog and just let her rip. I let her not be so perfect.

There are great dogs running in every venue, sorry dogs running in every venue, and some teriffic dogs that will never run under anyone's judgement other than their owners and the people who hunt with them.

This is exactly what I am trying to say!

NE Vizsla · Post by **NE Vizsla** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:40 pm

WildRose wrote:
CherrystoneWeims wrote:My point was why does everyone say the SH,MH dogs are not the dogs to go to???? Why does everyone say that "OH the FT dogs are the best to go to"? That just isn't so.

I've seen good FT dogs and bad FT dogs. I've seen good HT dogs and bad HT dogs. I've seen plenty of FC's that couldn't get a MH title. In fact I had a very well known Weim FT handler/breeder tell me that their NFC/FC COULDN'T get his MH!
Pam I must not be anyone because I certainly don't fit your "everyone". But then most of the people (trialers included) here don't fit your mold of "everyone" either because we didn't say that FT breeding is the only way to go.

I own a total of five dogs out of hour CH's or national Ch's. There are a lot of really fine things to like about those dogs. I dont' however find them to be better than the other dogs I own though, either as individuals or because of their pedigrees.

There are a lot of FC/NFC/AFC titled dogs that wouldn't pass a MH test. That's no reflection of poor quality on the dog's part it's more a matter of who judges many hunt tests. Many of which are people that think the ultimate test of a hunting dog is all about absolute control and perfect manners on planted birds and hunting preserves.

There is much more to a quality birddog than perfect manners. Many people place a higher value on drive and desire and the ability to find wild birds than they do on perfect manners.

When you have a dog though that combines all that drive and desire with biddability, trainability, handling and manners you have a great dog that can win just about any title if you get "the right judges", or simply make someone a great hunting companion.

You have to be pretty myopic to think this is an "all or none" proposition. There are great dogs running in every venue, sorry dogs running in every venue, and some teriffic dogs that will never run under anyone's judgement other than their owners and the people who hunt with them. CR

Sounds like someone likes to put the blame on the judges instead of himself his dogs and his training. Figures.

anne · Post by **anne** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:20 pm

CherrystoneWeims wrote:Quite a few people in my area CAN'T trial their dogs due to not having the ability to train from horseback.

That's why I said I like to see an RDX because you don't need a horse for that and it's a pretty good test of drive.

Holden05 · Post by **Holden05** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:21 am

Wildrose is a fantastic trainer and doesn't make excuses for a dog that doesn't perform.

withheld · Post by **withheld** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:51 am

CR wasn't complaining he was talking about the home cookin' that can sometimes happen at these events. And we've all seen it, in all the venues. It's human nature and until we can take the human element out of the dog games we play it is always going to be there.
The moral of the story is go watch the dogs you are going to breed to and know that you are doing your best in finding out what dogs are real or manufactured.
How many of us have worked where there was some one in a higher position that was not qualified for the job.
But that is not what it says on his office door. same thing

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs · Post by **Ricky Ticky Shorthairs** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:32 am

Mike hit it on the head. Just because a dog has a title of any kind doesn't mean that he came by it in the same manner that another dog that has the same title. ie..grounds, birds, weather conditions, and the competition on that day, or judges. You need to watch 'em, or know somebody that has. I also strongly feel that you should watch pups that those dogs have thrown. Not just little pups , but puppy/derby age and up. Line breeding is also a good idea, as it seems to give you more natural talent. (just my opinion)
Doug

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:40 pm

Sounds like someone likes to put the blame on the judges instead of himself his dogs and his training. Figures.

No just the opinion of someone who is pretty honest who participates in and judges field trials and hunt tests.

If there's a single consistent valid criticism made of the AKC hunt test system it's the fact that far too many of those judging in this venue have zero experience actually hunting wild birds with pointing dogs.

It's simply not possible to keep enough qualified judges who have that level of experience so we have to make do with the best we can find.

Certainly not everyone likes me or is thrilled when they see me in the judges saddle, but everyone that knows me knows that my perspective on judging tests and trials is one derived from a great deal of wild bird hunting all over the western half of the United States. Therefore if you put a real birddog down in front of me in either venue it will be appreciated, and looked at seriously.

However neither a remote controlled robot, nor a runaway idiot that occasionally gets stopped by a bird is likely to get a pass or a win under me.

Show me the whole package of course but you better show me a birddog first. CR

Chief_dog · Post by **Chief_dog** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 3:10 pm

Show me the whole package of course but you better show me a birddog first. CR

CR has judged my dogs before, and you'd better have a real birddog down if he's sitting in the judges saddle. He gained a lot of respect from me that weekend in Colorado, and that of my friends I trial with.

--David Scott

TrueBlu Shorthairs · Post by **TrueBlu Shorthairs** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 4:16 pm

Rockin C, good point. I have hunted over people's brag dogs, dogs they said were the best around, blah blah blah. Most wouldn't leave their side, couldn't find a bird if it was with 'em in a barrel. Come to find out they've only hunted over three dogs in their life. Those are our future breeders!!

bondoron · Post by **bondoron** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:16 pm

I think this is a great question. There is a lot of opinions which is also great. These are the things that make gun dogs great and unique. There are so many different hunting styles, hunters, terrain, game, and of course dogs.
I care more for the dog than the title it holds. However if I can't see the dog and have to go off titles I would have to say these are the ones I would be most interested in. UT I II or III. Of course the I is a higher title but that doesn't always mean it is the better dog. MH and SH are titles that anyone can be proud of but these titles mean less to me, however I don't mind seeing them. VC is also a title for anyone to be proud of but doesn't mean much more than the UT I dog is biddable, however that was already known when the UT I title was obtained IMO. I also find solm, azp, ikp, nakp, etc are important. This is the stuff I look for.

TrueBlu Shorthairs · Post by **TrueBlu Shorthairs** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 3:51 pm

Titles mean nothing if you don't know the dog and know the dog has been hunted extensively on wild birds. Judges don't know much if they haven't hunted extensively AND have titled a dog or two. I know far too many who are judging MH that haven't put a MH score on a dog, who don't bird hunt, and haven't had but a few, if any, broke placements, much less finished their own dog with a FC title. Just because they are grandfathered in doesn't make them a quality judge. Same with dogs, just because they are a VC, MH, or FC, means little 'til you know the dog has been hunted.

gunner · Post by **gunner** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:31 pm

For over a half a century I've purchased pups for my hunting and field trial pursuits from dogs that were run under American Field standard competions, particularly the wild bird, three hour endurance stakes.
I consider these stakes the epidome of a breeders stake of those inheritable values so important to a hunting dog.
I appreciate the previous posts that have expressed so eloquently the importance of those traditional field trial winner attributes to the bird hunting fraternity.