tri colored pointers?

[up-hunter]

I seen some pics of a tri colored pointer and i was wondering if this is common place in the pointer world, i haven't ever seen on before. I think the sire on this dog was a rock acre blackhawk.

This was a really cool looking dog just wondering if anyone can shed some more light on this coloring in pointers.

thanks

[prairiefirepointers]

Commonplace.. Not that I know of, but correct me if i'm wrong.
Yes indeed they would be cool looking, but I'm a sucker for a Pointer with a clean body and a black zoro mask!
And not the one in my avatar.. The one I sold last litter and the customer keeps sending pics of hunting.. Dang I knew I shoulda kept him.

[Yawallac]

The rumor is that Blackhawk's sire's dam was a drop. I have seen a LOT of his pups and several were tri-colored. Is Blackhawk the result of questionable breeding practices? I couldn't care less... I love the litter that I produced out of him, including my avatar...

[Pineywoods]

There are records of tri color pointers from the late 1800's
(http://www.iinet.com/~englishriver/Poin ... itter.html)

[gunner]

Tri colored pointers have a long, long history from today's well known pointer Strut to Herb Holme's Gunsmoke Kennel's top sire of 50 years's ago "Gunsmoke" to "Jingo" of nearly a century ago. Then jump the pond to early British foundation stock.

Here's a bit of history of the tri colored pointer....

http://www.iinet.com/~englishriver/Poin ... s_etc.html

[up-hunter]

thanks for the replies guys, they are cooling looking dogs.

yawallac how is sarah doing in her trial season.

[Yawallac]

She's running in the GA Shooting Dog Championship this weekend along with her son Gent. She's in the capable hands of veteran John Ray Kimbrell. I've got my fingers crossed...

Thank you for asking.

BTW, Gent is out of a tri-color Pointer, Strut.

[R-Heaton]

The rumor is that Blackhawk's sire's dam was a drop

What is a drop?

[lvrgsp]

Rich, a drop is a Pointer Setter cross. C'mon man you knew that

Chip

[Yawallac]

What is a drop?

In Blackhawk's case ....a really nice dog!!

[R-Heaton]

C'mon man you knew that

Lol,,, actually never heard it called that. Of course I knew that is the rumor and have heard the stories on Blackhawk,,,, but never heard it called a drop. Whats it called when the rumor mill says that a gsp might have pointer bred in there? Besides just a bold face lie?

[lvrgsp]

West Coast AA...........Hahahahahahaha.

Chip

[Dirtysteve]

Whats it called when the rumor mill says that a gsp might have pointer bred in there?

Sonny ?
I can say that I own one!

[Pineywoods]

Whats it called when the rumor mill says that a gsp might have pointer bred in there?

A upgrade .........HaHa !

[CherrystoneWeims]

Rich, a drop is a Pointer Setter cross.

I had heard that the tri-color markings were because of some hound getting crossed in there.

We have rumours on our field Weims that there is lemon pointer crossed generations back.

[Flush]

Yawallac,

In addition to the tri-color, did any of those pups come out with longish hair?

[gunner]

CherrystoneWeims wrote: "I had heard that the tri-color markings were because of some hound getting crossed in there."

As pointed out in the links above tri-coloredness in pointers go back to the very foundation of the breed the color being noted in the earlier Spanish pointer. (before 1700)

Yes, later on in the late 1700's some hound/pointer crosses did occur to the detriment of the breed.



Late 1700s - Foxhound Crosses - "Col. Thornton's Dash"

"It was in the last years of the eighteenth century that the crying sin against the pointer was committed, by mating him with the foxhound. Had he been crossed once again with the tender-nosed, sagacious, southern hound, the effect would not have been disastrous; but the dashing, harum-scarum foxhound was an exemplarily mischievous selection. ... Colonel Thornton (1757-1823), who kept both foxhounds and pointers, was the first to intermix the two breeds." -- Arkwright, 1906, The Pointer and His Predecessors

"The first person to have success with a pointer from adding foxhound blood was a Colonel Thornton. He kept both foxhounds and pointers and he mated a small pointer bitch and a shallow flewed foxhound and from this mating produced a dog by the name of "Dash". At the time, some people were of the opinion that it was perhaps unfortunate that he should have succeeded in breeding so soon an eminent dog like "Dash", for this dog was remarkable for his style of ranging on the moors as well as for his superior method of finding game. He was equally excellent in partridge shooting and backed other dogs as steadily as possible. He was used at stud to a considerable number of bitches but not one puppy which he sired ever made the grade for work! However, it was through the success of "Dash" in the field that many breeders in all parts of the country also decided to use the foxhound cross, but it soon became evident that these crosses were no good generally and that far more was lost than gained by the experiment. It had produced courage, power and perseverance, but also high spirits and keenness for chasing." -- Edmondson and Robertshaw, 1978, The Pointer: Faber and Faber, London"

"In fact if the truth could be ascertained, it would be much more reasonable to believe that this mongrel was produced in an effort to improve the speed of Thronton's hounds on which he was makeing large wagers in competing for speed records." -- Phillips, 1970, The True Pointer
English River site

[Yawallac]

...some hound/pointer crosses did occur to the detriment of the breed.

Not sure that A Rambling Rebel would agree with that!!

In addition to the tri-color, did any of those pups come out with longish hair?

Yep.

Fortunately, I didn't get any longhairs out of my Strut x Elhew cross or my Blackhawk x Guard Rail cross. I saw them when Blackhawk was bred back to two Rock Acre females ...which kind of makes sense.

[R-Heaton]

Ross,,, how much do you know about the Rebel lines,,, what are your thoughts?

[Yawallac]

Rich,

It's no secret how I feel about Guard Rail. I consider him to be a Rebel bred dog. So the things I like about him are the same as Rebel; bird finding ability, toughness, intelligence, etc. Some say they can be hardheaded, but I haven't had that. I recently tried to get a straw of Barshoe Brute that was advertised on fieldtrialpointer.net but they said they had sold all they were wanting to sell right now. It's probably the "hound" in them that makes them so good!

[R-Heaton]

I was wondering if you had ever talked with the Terrells,,, Scoot, Terry, Tony? They're from Texas from what I understand pretty much the developers of the Double Rebel dogs.

[Yawallac]

Rich,

I know of them but have never talked with them. I'd like to work some of their stuff into our kennel though.

[RayGubernat]

It is fairly common knowledge that hounds, including foxhounds were introduced into the pointer at some point(s) during the development of the breed.

I believe Calico's Thrillogy is also a tricolor or he throws tricolors. That could be why tricolors are a bit more common today than they were twenty or thirty years ago.

As far as Blackhawk having questionalbe ancestry...I think a lot of that is a bunch of breeders with tons of time, money and ego invested in other lines and the Blackhawk dogs are kicking their colective butts and cashing in on the dwindling pool of stud fee monies.

When you can't beat a dog in head to head competition and your stud fees are drying up, it is easy to start rumors and cast aspersions. Think of the great stud dogs that have come along and the rumors that were circulated. This one threw bad bites, that one threw dysplastic dogs the next one threw dogs that developed cancer at early ages, dogs out of that stud were squirrely, dogs out of that dog didn't like to hit the tough cover...the list of mean spirited rumors goes on and on.

I'm with Ross on this one... Blackhawk and his get are doing the job in the field and he is doing the job as a sire. I haven't been looking at pups recently, but i have seen a few young dogs out of Blackhawk stuff that looked pretty fancy.

My first bird dog was a dropper and you could not tell that he was anything but a pointer from his looks. A heckuva bird dog too.

RayG


RayG

[R-Heaton]

I never meant to start anything in fact I didn't bring it up,,, just wondering what a "drop" was or the way you put it "dropper".

I'm with Ross on this one..

Here we go again,,, there are no sides to be taken, no arguement to be had, nobody to belittle.

[Yawallac]

I believe Calico's Thrillogy is also a tricolor or he throws tricolors.

That's interesting, I didn't know that he was ...or threw tri-colored. I do know that he is ..yet another Guard Rail bred Champion!!

[bobman]

I never meant to start anything in fact I didn't bring it up,,, just wondering what a "drop" was or the way you put it "dropper".

I'm with Ross on this one..

Here we go again,,, there are no sides to be taken, no arguement to be had, nobody to belittle.

A drop or dropper is a slang term used mostly in the south for a accidental cross of a setter and a pointer, they are normally very good hunters which makes sense if you think about it

[ymepointer]

I Think tommy Davis runs a tri colored pointer named strut, but I am not sure. I know I have read of a few being around. I checked some of my old books and found a copy of Winges "interitance in Dogs with special reference to Hunting breeds" which was translated from Danish to english in 1950. He noted no Tri color pointers in his pointer chapter, but then again he noted no white shorthairs either in the shorthair chapter, which is probably what them weimys were crossed with :roll:

[CherrystoneWeims]

...some hound/pointer crosses did occur to the detriment of the breed.

Not sure that A Rambling Rebel would agree with that!!

In addition to the tri-color, did any of those pups come out with longish hair?

Yep.

Fortunately, I didn't get any longhairs out of my Strut x Elhew cross or my Blackhawk x Guard Rail cross. I saw them when Blackhawk was bred back to two Rock Acre females ...which kind of makes sense.

Ross, if you didn't get any LH's in the litters then those bitches probably are not LH coat carriers. At least that's how it works in Weims. Both parents have to be LH carriers since it is a recessive gene. You will have to watch your next generations though if this is the same case in pointers.

Yme, yes Tommy Davis runs Strut. Heh, heh I thought that the weimys were crossed with lemon pointer? I have "those dogs" in my line.