What holds Newb's back from Trialing?

Post by **slistoe** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:20 am

Birddogz wrote:I have hunted with dogs that have placed in numerous trials, and watch them blow pheasants out of a field at 400 yards. It goes both ways. There is this belief that to know a great dog you must trial. To know a great trial dog you must trial. To know a great hunting dog you must hunt.

There are folks out there hunting who have great dogs that will never be trialed. There are folks out there trialing that have great dogs that will never be hunted. And there are foks who have great dogs that do both with them. To know a great dog you must have watched a great dog relative to many very good and good dogs so you have a baseline on which to measure that greatness. Very, very, very, very few strictly hunters will ever have the opportunity to see enough dogs, let alone enough dogs of sufficient calibre to really know the difference.

Birddogz wrote:I've said it a million times, I have friends that are ruffed grouse guides and pheasant guides on only wild birds. Their dogs are superior to any trial dog I have ever seen. There was a trial run in Wisconsin a couple of years ago where the winning dog had 3 finds. My dogs and my friends dogs had around 4 times that many on almost the exact same ground. There is a difference.

Yeah, I won a trial one time with 3 finds. The next day after the trial I took out a 12 month old dog and in 20 minutes we had covered 1/4 of the course and she had 6 finds. I sold that dog at 18 mos. because she was never going to measure up to the quality of hunting dog to which I had become accustomed - the quality of dog that had won the trial the day before.

Birddogz wrote: I would love to take an all age national champ and break a wing on a rooster, give him a 2-3 minute head start and watch that AA dog track him 400 yards, and then fetch him, and bring him to hand. It simply isn't going to happen. Heck, trial guys don't like their dogs to put their noses down. Trial guys are into rules and looks. That is fine, but it doesn't help you in a pheasant cattail thicket. Hunting is how you judge hunting dogs.

Take the clone of the All Age Nat. Champ that had been raised by a hard core hunter who knows and expects from a dog what it is possible to have in a quality hunting companion and try you big man talk. Then have that fellow give his dog to the pro for a summer to polish him and run in some trials and you will have your "measure". There is no difference in the genetics selected for in top flight traditional trial competition and the requisite genetics to mold a top notch hunting dog.

I only entertain this birdogz fellow again because it may be of interest to some others on this thread. He has proven countless times over the years that he know absolutely nothing of what it means or takes to be a top contender in the trial world and he has no interest in learning or understanding anything.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:31 am

Chukar12 wrote:
by RayGubernat
You post reminded me of something that happend about forty years ago.
Ray,

You are a gentleman.
The best conversations, brandy and cigars are reserved for those that have grown to understand that how, is more important than how many. Your anecdotal lessons are often a fine reminder. Thank you

Chuckar 12 -

You probably wouldn't say that if you knew me better.

But I thank you nonetheless.

For me it has always been about the dogs for the most part.. Sure I like to shoot the gun and when I was younger, I did measure the success of the day by wether or not I limited out.

I just wanted to comment on the sometimes"holier than thou" attitude that some folks can take when they speak of their chosen sport. For diehard hunters, widl bird hunting is the "real' thing. For diehard trialers "the one hour championship " is the real thing, etc., etc.

Unless you re making a living...feeding your family and/or paying your bills...it AIN't the real thing...it is sport. Old Mr. Dowdy was doing the "real" thing when he ground swatted that covey. Same as when he would put a bullet in the head of a veal calf he raised or chopped off the head of an old used up layer chicken from his coop so his wife could make supper.

That is "real" to me. Paying the bills and putting supper on the table is real. the rest is for fun.

What we do is for enjoyment and sport. I personally would not care to wager on the outcome of a day afield because, for me, that would not increase my enjoyment of the time outdoors. i might bet a companion a dring or cigar that they will miss a shot, but that is about all. if I want to hunt...I hunt. If I want to compete...I'll pay my entry fee, enter a trial, bring my dog to the line and take what comes.

To each their own.

RayG

snips · Post by **snips** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:59 am

I am far from a newby...But I always loved competition and NSTRA filled that need for a long time, it is fun and very competitive and there were alot nearby me....I had no interest in AKC because it was mostly all horse-back and I had no interest in, or the money to handle dogs from horse-back...There were not enough Walking trials back then to keep a dog broke for IMO...Now that they have many more Walking trials I enjoy running AKC...I will run occasional horse back trials, but I do not like borrowing and would just as soon walk...

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:02 am

Winchey wrote:I was just thinking about a couple things, tail related. Why couldn't there be a handicapped stake for dogs with bad tails. I have seen a lot of good dogs that simply can't win only because they have bad tails and a lot of people that can only have a dog or two, you end up with a dog with a bad tail you can't part with and you are out of trialing for a while. I wish the dogs didn't have to have a 12 O tail either, as long as it is at least parallel and poker straight, I like it. It would open up the door to more dogs.

So a stake for special needs dogs?

All serious now. What we need to remember about the sport of field trialing, is that its real purpose is to evaluate breeding stock. 1) to measure to sires and dams against a pool of dogs, and 2)measure the product of those sires and dams. That's what it's supposed to be about.

Now certainly their are people that enjoy field trials strictly as an event, something to do...and that's good, but it is a breeder's tool. Hunting dogs is also a breeder's tool.

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:11 am

Birddogz

Oh, Slistoe the same old talk. Of course a dog out of FT genetics will be able to hunt well. I don't think anyone is saying otherwise. That is what I have. What I'm saying is if they haven't done it, they haven't done it. Just like my FT genetic dogs have never trialed, they won't be good at it.

I'm saying that I have seen hundreds of dogs in the field. I harvest and hunt more than 99% of the people on this forum. A dog needs to be judged on wild birds, in wild conditions, having to retrieve, and hunt dead.

Hunting is above trialing, since it is what trialing started out to try to imitate.

The job of a dog and a hunter is to harvest game. By definition even. Hunters are the ULTIMATE in the judging of a gundog, as a road test is to a design of an automobile. Lots of designs look good on paper, it takes actual driving conditions to test a prototype. Hunting is the actual conditions. Trials are the genetic base for the test. The real test is seeing those genetics produce in the field for a hunter. Sometimes they work well, sometimes you end up with Honky Tonk Att. dogs that die of cancer early in life. Fts are great for hunters, as they give them models to try out. To say a hunter doesn't know a good dog because they haven't seen enough is plain pompus, and false. A hunter knows a good dog when that dog fills his freezer faster than other guys. Style, SWTS, etc. is icing on the cake, it has zero to do with the job being completed.

Bring a true AA dog down to ND in December. We will go and hunt some big cattail sloughs. No GPS, just bells. I bet you will end up looking for your dogs as I am finishing my limit of roosters. I've seen it over and over.

Brushbustin Sporting Dogs · Post by **Brushbustin Sporting Dogs** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:24 am

People do not feed Birddogz rants. This has been a pretty good thread up until he started posting on it. Lets not turn this south and get this thing locked. Keep on base.

If you need to address Mr. Bright, Birddogz, do like I did and PM him.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:37 am

Wyndancer wrote:
Winchey wrote:I was just thinking about a couple things, tail related. Why couldn't there be a handicapped stake for dogs with bad tails. I have seen a lot of good dogs that simply can't win only because they have bad tails and a lot of people that can only have a dog or two, you end up with a dog with a bad tail you can't part with and you are out of trialing for a while. I wish the dogs didn't have to have a 12 O tail either, as long as it is at least parallel and poker straight, I like it. It would open up the door to more dogs.

So a stake for special needs dogs?

All serious now. What we need to remember about the sport of field trialing, is that its real purpose is to evaluate breeding stock. 1) to measure to sires and dams against a pool of dogs, and 2)measure the product of those sires and dams. That's what it's supposed to be about.

Now certainly their are people that enjoy field trials strictly as an event, something to do...and that's good, but it is a breeder's tool. Hunting dogs is also a breeder's tool.

Pretty much ya. Sometimes a bad tail is injury related and maybe that dog should be showcased and have a chance to produce.

I would like to see more fun trials being held or (gundog stakes). You have the comp and the bush league. I think if organizations spent more time promoting fun trials that were held the same weekend as the comp, it would be a way to get more people involved, get them some experience and would be a good stepping stone to the big leagues. Like others have said, have a greeter or whatever as well.

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:45 am

I see know reason why my posts should offend anyone. They are my opinion. If you don't agree, fine. What stops many people from trialing is the pompus attitudes that many trialers have. LIke Slistoe, who says hunters don't know good dogs because they don't see enough. That is simply wrong. What about people who have done both, and stop trialing. How do they qualify?

Vman · Post by **Vman** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:50 am

What holds Newb's back from Trialing?

I am fairly new to the FT scene. I look back and ask myself why I didn`t get into it sooner? I have beautiful grounds close by and I also train there. So why wouldn`t I get on board?
Well most of it comes down to the mentality that Mr. Birddogz has. I was the same way pretty much. Never rode a brace but I knew all about it.
Then the Vizsla Club of America held a Championship out there and I went out to watch. I rode the wagon for about a half day for a couple of days, and tried to pick the best dog in my opinion. What I seen was not what I thought I was going to see. I seen some close dogs and I seen some dogs that really hunted. A lady from Ohio had discussed with me before the trial what I was going to see. She knew my opinion at the time, and after she asked me what I thought about the trial?
I told her I liked what I seen and I was going home and entering the next trial I could get into. I didn`t see anything that scared me. In fact I really liked what I seen. My dogs could have very well placed in that trial if I only would have entered them.
Since then I have placed and won several stakes against Pointers, Setters, GSPs and the other various breeds. It is fun to watch providing you are in the saddle. I like to watch the dogs, but also the handlers. I like to see how they are going to handle certain situations that come up. I have learned alot, even after I thought I knew it all.

Once I decided to play the game I entered the local GSP trial and was welcomed by the test Secretary{?} Erica Zick. She walked up to me like she knew me all her life. She let me know what was going on and if I needed anything to let her know. Anyone that has ever met her will tell you the same thing.
I think that is what put me over the edge. IF I had went there and she was absent I don`t know if I would have ever went back. She made me feel welcome and introduced me to several people who may have a horse I could ride if I asked them. Mr. Dennis Pierce was also there and he told me I could use his horse if I needed. I took him up on it and he let me use that horse several, if not many times. All for a Thank You.
It is people like them that make the Newbie feel welcome. I think that is the most important part. It is that "First Impression" that sticks with us. Be it people or dogs, or trials. As someone wrote here, a Welcome Wagon at the trial will get more people interested than anything. Just make them feel Welcome and they will come back for more.
I used to be highly involved with the local NAVHDA Chapter. I took it upon myself to greet and entertain the new visitors. I would spend time with them and answer their questions. We went from 30 members to over 125 in less than 2 years. I was told many times by the new people later on, that they will never forget the first time they went to a NAVHDA training day and met me. We all have gone to a party or a new town and didn`t know anyone when we walked in the door and didn`t know anyone when we left. We never went back either did we? The same goes for the trials or even tests. Nobody wants to go hang out with snobs.
Not saying that you won`t run into snobs or indifferent people at a trial, you just might. But if you look around you will see alot more people who are just like you, that love dogs and enjoy watching a good dog do his thing no matter which breed it is. Just like life, you will get out of it exactly what you put into it.

Mr. Birddogz, I am not here to argue with anyone including you. I know exactly how you feel and think. Just like Slistoe we sat on the same bar stool as you. Go to some trials and keep an open mind about what you see. Leave the chip on your shoulder at the gate. I think you would learn alot. I think your devotion for your dog is great, but everyone has a good dog or two,, Just ask them, they will love too tell you,, no problem.
But I learned a long time ago,, "You don`t really have a great dog until someone else with experience tells you so"
and if you want your dog too let you down, just brag him up. Because there is always one better close by if you look.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:50 am

Birddogz wrote:I see know reason why my posts should offend anyone. They are my opinion. If you don't agree, fine. What stops many people from trialing is the pompus attitudes that many trialers have. LIke Slistoe, who says hunters don't know good dogs because they don't see enough. That is simply wrong. What about people who have done both, and stop trialing. How do they qualify?

How do the people who do both and stop hunting qualify?

Reveille75 · Post by **Reveille75** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:52 am

Everyone's situation is a little different, church, kids activities, travel, money and just plain not wanting to be embarrassed in front of a bunch of people by an untested dog. In my own case, it's not knowing how to get involved. The entrants and judges are all busy as heck so who can a newbie sidle up to and ask questions. I mean questions like where in Freer, Texas is everybody staying? Do I have to own a horse to compete? Who do I have to register my dog with to compete in your event? Have you got a map so I can get there? To those of you who are already in the loop, these sort of concerns seem silly but if you really want fresh blood in the game it's going to take some effort. Dog people are great folks to talk to so pick two from the chapter that is hosting the event and give them the duty of being the point of contact for newbies. They will be able to answer all the dumb questions I would ask and make things a little less intimidating for the first timer. If the goal is really to bring more people in, I think it can be done and how great it would be for sporting dogs and their owners.
David

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:55 am

I think trialing is expensive...not to attend...but to do it right and not be more than fodder for the cannon or build points for the pros...you're gonna need big grounds to train on...machine to road dogs on...horse/trailer?....truck to pull it?....gonna take 2-3 years to finish most dogs if they're capable of fininshing..trainer if needed is beaucoup bucks...and unless you personally want to hunt behind a 2-400 yd dog (or more), you may not be training the dog you ultimately need. Makes a lot of sense if you're hunting out on the prairie. IMO, if you're gonna trial, then you trial and you hunt later. I don't know many trial guys that are showing their young dogs a lot of wild grouse, woodcock, phez the first season. I know some folks will contradict that but many seem to agree.
Great game and Its good for every breed to have these proven performers and hats off to those that put in the time.

Brushbustin Sporting Dogs · Post by **Brushbustin Sporting Dogs** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:05 am

Reveille75 wrote:Everyone's situation is a little different, church, kids activities, travel, money and just plain not wanting to be embarrassed in front of a bunch of people by an untested dog. In my own case, it's not knowing how to get involved. The entrants and judges are all busy as heck so who can a newbie sidle up to and ask questions. I mean questions like where in Freer, Texas is everybody staying? Do I have to own a horse to compete? Who do I have to register my dog with to compete in your event? Have you got a map so I can get there? To those of you who are already in the loop, these sort of concerns seem silly but if you really want fresh blood in the game it's going to take some effort. Dog people are great folks to talk to so pick two from the chapter that is hosting the event and give them the duty of being the point of contact for newbies. They will be able to answer all the dumb questions I would ask and make things a little less intimidating for the first timer. If the goal is really to bring more people in, I think it can be done and how great it would be for sporting dogs and their owners.
David

David as far as AKC events it's all wrote out on the akc.org website under Event and Awards search. You can do a search by state for retreiver trials or field trials whichever one is interested in. It will pull up the events from there it will give the secretary information for that club. All AKC trials have premiums that go out on the premiums there must be per AKC rules directions to the grounds. All the information is quite easy to find. I hope this helps you out some. Also each breed has club websites. The brittany is theamericanbrittanyclub.org it has list of clubs by region and contacts for all the clubs. I'm sure the shorthair people have the same but I am out of touch with that. The information is out there and I hope this helps you locate it, but it can take alittle leg work!!! Good Luck!!! Close your eyes and take the leap....

Not

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:15 am

by Birddogz

I see know reason why my posts should offend anyone.

...and yet they do, in seemingly great masses?

Perhaps it goes to your communication style when you get frustrated. Remember when you said that you get frustrtaed because no one believes you? I believe you hunt a lot, but more than 99% of the people, is that accurate and does it matter? Your statements are heresay, "I have seen, my friends, I know a better way..." It's tiring...I am sure you aren't a bad guy, but your lack of credibility is internet legend for a reason...

I want more of your high school athletic career, tell us a "I once scored 5 touchdowns in one game for Polk High story

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:16 am

Neil wrote

I just do not buy the expense thing, I have hunted and field trialed for over 40 years, and I have spent way more money on hunting.

Most years I attend upwards of 30 trials, some weekend, some major championships, some as handler, judge, or reporter, most just in the gallery.

Where do you live where you can attend 30 trials where trialing isn't an expense? I'm close to MN/SD/ND borders. Between SD/ND there is combined total of 1 pointing dog trial, South Dakota sells almost 200,000 pheasant licenses and has I trial. For me most of my hunting is done within 5 miles of my home, $30 is what it costs for a five day hunt. I know that's not a case for many hunters and they travel 100+ miles or across many states and spend a lot of money. I guess my biggest expense is my 2 SD out-state licenses that costs me a total of $220 (highway robber), but if would attend 2 trials I would have spent over that amount.

prairiefirepointers · Post by **prairiefirepointers** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:18 am

JKP wrote:I think trialing is expensive...not to attend...but to do it right and not be more than fodder for the cannon or build points for the pros...you're gonna need big grounds to train on...machine to road dogs on...horse/trailer?....truck to pull it?....gonna take 2-3 years to finish most dogs if they're capable of fininshing..trainer if needed is beaucoup bucks...and unless you personally want to hunt behind a 2-400 yd dog (or more), you may not be training the dog you ultimately need. Makes a lot of sense if you're hunting out on the prairie. IMO, if you're gonna trial, then you trial and you hunt later. I don't know many trial guys that are showing their young dogs a lot of wild grouse, woodcock, phez the first season. I know some folks will contradict that but many seem to agree.
Great game and Its good for every breed to have these proven performers and hats off to those that put in the time.

I agree with the $$$. I'd love to be able to do it, but I just can't right now. My heart is in wild bird hunting. I live in the heart of it, so why shouldn't I? Its one of those "to each there own" type deals. I too think it is a great benifit. I'd love to go watch one in action someday. I was interested in getting involved a few years back, but heard that 1 out of every 3 newbies gets drug to the alter and offered as a burnt sacrifice to the trial gods.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:21 am

...yeah it aint cheap
My wife was harping on me about a motorhome for years, I always rented one. When I started trialing we bought one and she has the audacity to suggest it is because I wanted it for trialing

wems2371 · Post by **wems2371** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:48 am

To the original topic - I have always considered that it would be nice if a trial giving club could enlist enough manpower that they could have a meet and greet person - the help desk as it were. Generally the new folks coming out to a trial to "check it out" because they are apprehensive about jumping in with both feet know nothing about anything when they get there. Everyone there is preoccupied and involved with the trial itself. Running their dog, organizing birds/etc. - no one has time to grab ahold of the newbie and show them the lay of the land. It was always my goal and intention when I was FTC, but alas, there simply were not that many people available in the club.

The first trial we went to, was posted on GDF, by Jon St Clair. When I pm'd him, he gave me a ton of information, and pretty much made me feel like our first trial experience would be a piece of cake (granted it was just puppy). When we showed up, and parked on the road shoulder a 100 yards from the field entry, I don't think we had more than 5 minutes before Jon and a friend were coming to see who we were. They gave us the pep talk

, invited us to join them back at the field, and told us they'd make sure we didn't miss our turn. Being it wasn't the prettiest of days, something like March or April in Iowa, like others we spent an hour or two in our truck waiting. Being worried anyway, I walked up every now and again, to see where the running order was at. Didn't really need to, because at one point, when we felt like it was probably about time...here came Jon walking down the road again, to make sure we knew. While my husband was in the field for the 20 minutes, I stood with Jon and another gentleman at the field entry, chatting about dogs and such. And when we got our 4th place ribbon, he and the others were congratulatory, and I'd like to believe happy that us firsttimers got a little something out of it.

The second trial was the antithesis of the first. The test secretary acted like I was burden in trying to find out anything, nonetheless which day I would be running. No one ever let me know that they received my entry, so I had to call again. Email is free folks! Puppy was going to be run near the end of the running order, and I was told it would depend how the prior stakes went. I will not show up 2 different days for something, on a whim. I knew Doug (from GDF) would probably be there, so I pm'd him, and we both figured there would be no way in heck that I would be on Saturday. While the test secretary may not have wanted to be pinned down, they could have at minimum tried to give me some idea...or 5 second phone call on Saturday to say, don't worry it will be Sunday. No greeter on Sunday and no one to say you're on deck. Not that I need to feel special or have someone hold my hand, but with it just being our 2nd trial...we still had the newbie jitters.

I have been a field marshall for 2 years now for our annual NAVHDA test. I wrangle everyone together for a 5-10 minute handler's meeting with the judges, first thing in the morning. We hand out a printed running order, with the judges names, my name, etc. Everyone is told to come to me for questions or help. Even if I don't have the answer, I'm responsible for directing them to someone that does. I don't babysit, because I've got other duties as well, but I do try to keep track of them. About 10 minutes before their run, I give them their warning to be on deck. As we wait at the field entrance, I am hopefully someone they feel comfortable chatting with. And as they enter the field, I am one of many, saying "Good luck". It's very much like that very first FT I went to, and I know in being on both sides of the fence, that it eases some of the tension on what can be a worrisome day for a newbie.

PS: If you think money is no issue and not a reasonable excuse why a person is unable to participate in something, I am available for adoption or at least sponsorship.

hpvizslas · Post by **hpvizslas** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:33 am

nikegundog wrote:Neil wrote
I just do not buy the expense thing, I have hunted and field trialed for over 40 years, and I have spent way more money on hunting.

Most years I attend upwards of 30 trials, some weekend, some major championships, some as handler, judge, or reporter, most just in the gallery.
Where do you live where you can attend 30 trials where trialing isn't an expense? I'm close to MN/SD/ND borders. Between SD/ND there is combined total of 1 pointing dog trial, South Dakota sells almost 200,000 pheasant licenses and has I trial. For me most of my hunting is done within 5 miles of my home, $30 is what it costs for a five day hunt. I know that's not a case for many hunters and they travel 100+ miles or across many states and spend a lot of money. I guess my biggest expense is my 2 SD out-state licenses that costs me a total of $220 (highway robber), but if would attend 2 trials I would have spent over that amount.

Neil lives near an area that has many different trials in the TN/AR/MO area.
I believe South Dakota has more than one trial, just not AKC trials. There should be some more coming up though. I can understand not having any trials near by because I am in North Central Nebraska. However, there are several on this board that are within a couple of hours from me. If there are some that are interested in putting on a trial, I would be willing to work with them to get one started. I have chaired a few AKC trials and hunt tests, have access to some ground that we could use and can get the birds that are needed. Just let me know if anyone wants to try and put a trial on in the NE/SD/MN area.

Thanks
Jeff

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:38 am

Chukar12 wrote:
by Birddogz

I see know reason why my posts should offend anyone.
...and yet they do, in seemingly great masses?

Perhaps it goes to your communication style when you get frustrated. Remember when you said that you get frustrtaed because no one believes you? I believe you hunt a lot, but more than 99% of the people, is that accurate and does it matter? Your statements are heresay, "I have seen, my friends, I know a better way..." It's tiring...I am sure you aren't a bad guy, but your lack of credibility is internet legend for a reason...

I want more of your high school athletic career, tell us a "I once scored 5 touchdowns in one game for Polk High story

It is very frustrating when you hunt as much as I do, and then hear how I don't know anything about dogs. I have been hunting for almost 30 years, and have bird hunted in around 25 different states. I know about hunting wild birds. I don't care what others may think that don't have my experience. I'm not trying to brag, just being honest. I have many friends that are guides. I talk to them as well, and we agree on most things. It isn't until I reply to a thread on this forum where I seem to get blasted. Everyone's statements are here say on the internet, unless you have hunted with the person. I take people at their word unless I have proof otherwise.

"It would have all been different if they would have just given me the ball in 82" "I bet I could throw this ball over those mountains"

Never scored 5. I had 3 once, and I don't sell shoes.

By the way, it seems to be the same 3-5 people who are offended by my statements. I often get PMs that agree with me, but don't want the heat that I take. I don't mind it, as long as it stays civil.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:43 am

Fair enough...and for the record I don't personally think you know nothing about dogs. I do think you are myopic in your assessment of them...share what you know, gaudy wild pheasants ... that audience is big, maybe the biggest

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:44 am

nikegundog wrote:
Where do you live where you can attend 30 trials where trialing isn't an expense?

I live in Western Tenn, about 15 miles from the Ames Plantation by choice. I could attend over 25 open/amateur trials and spend every night in my own bed.

I don't, I travel a good bit, more for hunting than field trials, but 10,000+ miles combined.

There are at least 5 major trials in SD/ND and another 5 just over the border in Canada, and one almost every weekend in Nebraska during the season.

I have not said trialing is not expensive, just not as expensive as hunting is for me,

Neil

Post by **slistoe** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:48 am

prairiefirepointers wrote:I was interested in getting involved a few years back, but heard that 1 out of every 3 newbies gets drug to the alter and offered as a burnt sacrifice to the trial gods.

Wow, 2 of 3 newbies are successful! I am going back to the newbies side

Where I sit it seems that 39 of 40 experienced folks are sacrificed every stake.

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:56 am

Chukar12 wrote:Fair enough...and for the record I don't personally think you know nothing about dogs. I do think you are myopic in your assessment of them...share what you know, gaudy wild pheasants ... that audience is big, maybe the biggest

I hunt sharpies and huns early in the year, and have always said that big running dogs are better for them. Just not HUGE running dogs. I have hunted Ruffs and pheasant the most, and a real big running dog just isn't the best for them in my opinion. Quail are what trials were based on, and a dog that really goes is an advantage if you have means to keep up with them. I honestly don't think I would even have a problem hunting with most on this forum, the pissing contest just gets started. If its in good fun, it makes for great discussions over beers when the bodies of men and dogs are soar and need some pain killing.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:58 am

PS: If you think money is no issue and not a reasonable excuse why a person is unable to participate in something, I am available for adoption or at least sponsorship.

Yeah I thought that was a great statement but years too late. I still remember looking for a kids shoe he lost because their wasn't any money to buy another pair. I still remember driving on back roads because there wsn't any money to drive on the toll road. I still remember having five kids to get through school. I still remember raising rabbits for the food and selling as many as we could to buy more feed. I still remember starting a boarding kennel and raising several litter of pups each year to help with the income as well as giving the kids a summertime job that kept them off of the streets. Just so glad money was never an issue. Think it might have been hard to convince my wife before she left.

Just bet I am too old to be adopted but it sure would be nice and would have been wonderful back in those earlier years. Makes me wonder where I failed.

Ezzy

Post by **slistoe** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:02 pm

Birddogz wrote: It is very frustrating when you hunt as much as I do, and then hear how I don't know anything about dogs.

Take a breath and read it again.
Birdogz knows absolutely nothing about what it takes to make and be a great trial dog.
Who said you knew nothing about dogs? I am sure that if someone wanted to know if a Chihuahua would be suitable as a flushing dog for pheasants you would be more than qualified to answer.

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:03 pm

I will agree that the Chi-chi would be a poor choice for chasing roosters.

snips · Post by **snips** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:04 pm

I'll adopt both of you, because I am rich

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:05 pm

Neil, sorry I just took the info off the AKC website for trialing, forgot about the other clubs. Could you tell me the locations in South Dakota where other organizations are trialing?

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:11 pm

I'll relate a story from an acquaintance of mine. He happens to be a trustee for a region in AFTCA. Also happens to run some very successful pointers, also has property in ND, also hunts like a mad man.

He tells me a number of years back, and he was successful at that time as well, the he knew a good dog when he saw one....or so he thought. That is until he went to Ames and road right behind the judges during a National. "Dan, I thought I knew what a good dog was, but I found out what a good dog was during that National. The good ones make it look easy....and it is easy, until you try do to it with your dog."

Point being, he thought, given his background as first as a life long hunter then a FT competitor, he knew. Fact was he just hadn't seen enough dogs...and he'd admit that.

So what keeps the newb away?

Time
Cost
Fear

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:12 pm

nikegundog wrote:Neil, sorry I just took the info off the AKC website for trialing, forgot about the other clubs. Could you tell me the locations in South Dakota where other organizations are trialing?

http://www.americanfield.com/Pages/2_4_FIX.pdf

prairiefirepointers · Post by **prairiefirepointers** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:16 pm

slistoe wrote:
prairiefirepointers wrote:I was interested in getting involved a few years back, but heard that 1 out of every 3 newbies gets drug to the alter and offered as a burnt sacrifice to the trial gods.
Wow, 2 of 3 newbies are successful! I am going back to the newbies side Where I sit it seems that 39 of 40 experienced folks are sacrificed every stake.

No mention or implications of success. The burnt offering would just serve as an show of power to anyone entering the cult following of Field Trialing.

jk jk

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs · Post by **Ricky Ticky Shorthairs** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:25 pm

I was gonna stay out of this, but since I was at the trials that Denise was at I will comment on them. (I'm not pickin' on 'ya Denise.

)

Most of the smaller trials that I go to seem to be more of a gathering of people there for a good time. Denise is right, John was a most cordial host, and did a very good job of directing the trial and making sure it went off without any problems. That was a one day trial.

The second trial at Pleasant Creek was a 2 day trial with more dogs and people. Nothing against Kathy Jordan, but she has been doing this for a long time and has probably been hardened over the years. Anybody who knows her knows that she takes a while to warm up to a newcomer. The real ambassador in that family is her husband Jerry. First trial I attended at Eastern Iowa, Jerry came up to me and stuck out his big 'ol paw and introduced himself and said howdy.

If you really want to see a freak show, go to one of Erbe's fall trials, over 200 dogs and 3 or 4 days. Those trials go off without a hitch most of the time, but it's a huge job to run one of those. (Bob and Jan do a very good job, and they even run their own dogs at them.) At the big trials everybody is usually pretty busy. Most people have their "game face" on. Newbs need to try to find the walking trials to start. Those are the trials where people hang out in the parking lot. The HB trials, most people are out riding or taking care of their animals.

It seems that the bigger the trial the harder it is for the newcomer to find someone to help them out. You just have to suck it up and start asking. Keep in mind that you are always going to run into those willing to help and those that are not. (Just like in other parts of our lives.)

I have found that all in all it takes more than one or two trials to learn the ropes, but with time as you meet new people and keep showing up, that you will find people will take you seriously and really start to help. Kinda like the dating scene, be ready to deal with rejection and let it slide off your back, because when you find the right person to mentor you it will seem like you have known each other forever.

Jerry Jordan was that person for me, and he taught me A LOT about trials, and what it takes top be competitive in them. You also have to show up and watch, whether it be riding in the gallery or just hanging out in the parking lot and shooting the sheet.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is Hunt Tests. They are a great way to get started in this game too. Not nearly as competitive, and you still get to see the broke dog work.

Here's something I've found out that works pretty good. Walk up to the biggest string of dogs that you can find, and ask to help with dog chores. Pick up poo or help feed and water. You will make friends real quick.

Riding in the dog wagon is a good way to learn too.

Doug

wems2371 · Post by **wems2371** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:47 pm

Brenda, I am awaiting the adoption paperwork...

Ezzy, at 40 I'm probably too old to be adopted too, but I am willing to put a sponsorship kennel sticker on my dogs side, as long as it doesn't create too much drag.

Doug, you are absolutely right about seeking people out. First person I sought out at Pleasant Creek, was parked next to me, and it was his first trial so he didn't have a clue either.

Turned out to be my dog's bracemate, and he got his first placement that day. But I do hear you, in how you have to make it happen for yourself.

Dating, I haven't had to deal with that in 16 years...scary comparison Doug.

kensfishing · Post by **kensfishing** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:59 pm

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:I was gonna stay out of this, but since I was at the trials that Denise was at I will comment on them. (I'm not pickin' on 'ya Denise. )

Most of the smaller trials that I go to seem to be more of a gathering of people there for a good time. Denise is right, John was a most cordial host, and did a very good job of directing the trial and making sure it went off without any problems. That was a one day trial.

The second trial at Pleasant Creek was a 2 day trial with more dogs and people. Nothing against Kathy Jordan, but she has been doing this for a long time and has probably been hardened over the years. Anybody who knows her knows that she takes a while to warm up to a newcomer. The real ambassador in that family is her husband Jerry. First trial I attended at Eastern Iowa, Jerry came up to me and stuck out his big 'ol paw and introduced himself and said howdy.

If you really want to see a freak show, go to one of Erbe's fall trials, over 200 dogs and 3 or 4 days. Those trials go off without a hitch most of the time, but it's a huge job to run one of those. (Bob and Jan do a very good job, and they even run their own dogs at them.) At the big trials everybody is usually pretty busy. Most people have their "game face" on. Newbs need to try to find the walking trials to start. Those are the trials where people hang out in the parking lot. The HB trials, most people are out riding or taking care of their animals.

It seems that the bigger the trial the harder it is for the newcomer to find someone to help them out. You just have to suck it up and start asking. Keep in mind that you are always going to run into those willing to help and those that are not. (Just like in other parts of our lives.)

I have found that all in all it takes more than one or two trials to learn the ropes, but with time as you meet new people and keep showing up, that you will find people will take you seriously and really start to help. Kinda like the dating scene, be ready to deal with rejection and let it slide off your back, because when you find the right person to mentor you it will seem like you have known each other forever.

Jerry Jordan was that person for me, and he taught me A LOT about trials, and what it takes top be competitive in them. You also have to show up and watch, whether it be riding in the gallery or just hanging out in the parking lot and shooting the sheet.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is Hunt Tests. They are a great way to get started in this game too. Not nearly as competitive, and you still get to see the broke dog work.

Here's something I've found out that works pretty good. Walk up to the biggest string of dogs that you can find, and ask to help with dog chores. Pick up poo or help feed and water. You will make friends real quick. Riding in the dog wagon is a good way to learn too.

Doug

Doug knows about the dating scene.

Just kidding Doug. These 3 and 4 day trials are a ton of work. Last year Bob had me judging three of the four days on the other course. Had to take all the dogs with me, wife had family problems with my daughter in Ha. So all 14 dogs went with me. If it wasn't for the other people there, my dogs would have suffered. They watered and cleaned up after them for me. Get to know them before you judge the people at trials.

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs · Post by **Ricky Ticky Shorthairs** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:34 pm

So all 14 dogs went with me. If it wasn't for the other people there, my dogs would have suffered. They watered and cleaned up after them for me. Get to know them before you judge the people at trials.

Right on, Ken. Everybody I have ever met that trials, would give you the shirt off their back. All of them care for their animals before themselves. Most are more than willing to help a newcomer, all 'ya gotta do is ask.

I have met quite a few people because of FT's. A lot of guys that I know, myself included, would rather hunt by themselves or with one or two others at the most. So with FT's it's a great way to get to meet people that are interested in the same things as you, except there's 20 or more people all in the same place. A great way to find out about training, dogs, trainers, etc. You WILL meet people that can teach you about training and handling dogs.

Doug

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:42 pm

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:If you really want to see a freak show, go to one of Erbe's fall trials, over 200 dogs and 3 or 4 days. Those trials go off without a hitch most of the time, but it's a huge job to run one of those. (Bob and Jan do a very good job, and they even run their own dogs at them.) At the big trials everybody is usually pretty busy. Most people have their "game face" on. Newbs need to try to find the walking trials to start. Those are the trials where people hang out in the parking lot. The HB trials, most people are out riding or taking care of their animals.

It seems that the bigger the trial the harder it is for the newcomer to find someone to help them out. You just have to suck it up and start asking. Keep in mind that you are always going to run into those willing to help and those that are not. (Just like in other parts of our lives.)
Doug

I've actually found that at(pointer) the "big" horseback trials, everything is super laid back and easier to see/learn. They know how many braces will be run and no one is running around like a chicken with their head cut off. There are usually more than enough people to talk to and ask questions. Way more fun and enjoyable IMO.

V-John · Post by **V-John** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:18 pm

kensfishing wrote:
aeast8 wrote:Topher
I just bought my first dog (GSP) and I am training him myself. He is 8 months and it is going great. Training has slowed down a little right now because of the unusual amounts of snowfall in KC this year. Right now he is sleeping on my lap as I type this. I would love to run him in field trials or shoot to retrieves etc. but I just don't know anything about it and when I tried to read about it on the internet none of it made any sense. I don't have a horse but I know people who do and could get one but I think I would rather do a walking trial. I can see by your prefix you are in the kansas area. Would love for someone to explain to me how they work and take me under their wing. I have wanted a bird dog my whole life and finally got one so am really ate up in it right now. To try and answer your question how to get people off the fence. For me it was not understanding the rules. Give me a clear understanding of how they work and I will be there if it suits me and Ripken, my dog. But at the end of the day hunting with Ripken is more important to me and have heard that hunting and trial dogs are different but that could be a myth.
I live north of KC a couple of hours. Your'e more than welcome to come up and I'll help. There's a trial at Branched Oak next month and there's several people from KC. that will be there. If you want to learn come on.. By the way my first trials I stayed in the back of my truck, ate packed lunches, then a tent and so on. It's the greatest thing on earth.

There is also a trial at Lee's Summit the last weekend of Febuary as well.

V-John · Post by **V-John** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:29 pm

prairiefirepointers wrote:
JKP wrote:I think trialing is expensive...not to attend...but to do it right and not be more than fodder for the cannon or build points for the pros...you're gonna need big grounds to train on...machine to road dogs on...horse/trailer?....truck to pull it?....gonna take 2-3 years to finish most dogs if they're capable of fininshing..trainer if needed is beaucoup bucks...and unless you personally want to hunt behind a 2-400 yd dog (or more), you may not be training the dog you ultimately need. Makes a lot of sense if you're hunting out on the prairie. IMO, if you're gonna trial, then you trial and you hunt later. I don't know many trial guys that are showing their young dogs a lot of wild grouse, woodcock, phez the first season. I know some folks will contradict that but many seem to agree.
Great game and Its good for every breed to have these proven performers and hats off to those that put in the time.
I agree with the $$$. I'd love to be able to do it, but I just can't right now. My heart is in wild bird hunting. I live in the heart of it, so why shouldn't I? Its one of those "to each there own" type deals. I too think it is a great benifit. I'd love to go watch one in action someday. I was interested in getting involved a few years back, but heard that 1 out of every 3 newbies gets drug to the alter and offered as a burnt sacrifice to the trial gods.

I'm almost positive that there is a trial coming up within 1-2 hours of you.
You should come out. Good guys.
Just saying.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:05 pm

snips wrote:I'll adopt both of you, because I am rich

Thanks MOM!!!

Ezzy

Kmack · Post by **Kmack** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:14 pm

ckirsch wrote:"People keep kicking the horse thing for trials, YOU DON'T NEED ONE. Come run under me at a trial and see that you get a fair shake. Walking handlers get priority. Plain and simple."

That's good to know. I've visited some of the field trial forums and read guys' complaints about walking handlers holding everything up, and how frustrated they were to get braced with someone on foot. Last thing I would want to do would be to drive a day to get to a trial where I'm a nuisance.

When I mention the need for a horse, I am talking about a newbie trying to follow a trial around all day to observe and learn what goes on. If all you want to do is run a dog, sure you can walk the brace. But you will learn very little.

The best place to learn about what's going on is right behind the judges, and you ain't going to be able to hang out there on foot.

kensfishing · Post by **kensfishing** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:00 pm

Kmack wrote:
ckirsch wrote:"People keep kicking the horse thing for trials, YOU DON'T NEED ONE. Come run under me at a trial and see that you get a fair shake. Walking handlers get priority. Plain and simple."

That's good to know. I've visited some of the field trial forums and read guys' complaints about walking handlers holding everything up, and how frustrated they were to get braced with someone on foot. Last thing I would want to do would be to drive a day to get to a trial where I'm a nuisance.
When I mention the need for a horse, I am talking about a newbie trying to follow a trial around all day to observe and learn what goes on. If all you want to do is run a dog, sure you can walk the brace. But you will learn very little.

The best place to learn about what's going on is right behind the judges, and you ain't going to be able to hang out there on foot.

If you don't have a horse come ride with me.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:32 pm

Birddogz wrote:I see know reason why my posts should offend anyone. They are my opinion. If you don't agree, fine. What stops many people from trialing is the pompus attitudes that many trialers have. LIke Slistoe, who says hunters don't know good dogs because they don't see enough. That is simply wrong. What about people who have done both, and stop trialing. How do they qualify?

Birddogz -

The fact that you see no reason why your posts are offensive... IS a big part of the reason.

YOU seem to be the the one who is a POMPOUS jerk with a " My way is a better way" attitude.

Sure it is your opinion, but just like (you know what), everyone has an opinion. Some of them stink worse than others.

You enjoy your sport. Obviously you enjoy your sport a great deal. That in and of itself is no reason whatsoever to pronounce your version of the sport as the VERY best that there is, as you have done and continue to do. Perhaps part of the reason is the obvious corollary to your position that you, the hunter are the very best there is also. Maybe your self esteem needs a little shoring up. Talk to Dr. Phil about that.

You thoroughly enjoy what you do. Bravo. You think it is the greatest thing in the world. Again...Bravo. You think you are the baddest hunter with some of the baddest dogs out there. Once again...Bravo.

I got a flash for you ...There are folks out there that think Olympic curling is the greatest sport in the world. I choose to disagree with that OPINION as well.

Hunting wild birds is usually one of two scenarios. It is either pretty easy because there are plenty of birds or it is darn near impossible because birds are scarce. A half decent dog will look like a world beater when there are plenty of birds. The best dog in the world won't get much done when there are no birds to be found.

You constantly throw out challenges to come out and hunt the way you hunt. I say, enter your worldbeater dogs in a thirty minute stake on planted birds. if they are really worldbeaters, that should not be a problem for them...or you. Get back to me when you do and believe it or not...I sincerely hope you and your dogs do well.

But you probably won't do that...because you are probably all talk and in the cold light of competition that is open for all to see, it ain't about who has the best story to tell.

In bird dog competitions, when judge says "Let 'em go", the BS stops because you are putting it out there for EVERYONE to see. It can be a VERY humbling experience, believe me.

Enjoy your sport as you find it. Allow others to enjoy theirs also.

RayG

ckirsch · Post by **ckirsch** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:27 pm

Birddogz wrote:By the way, it seems to be the same 3-5 people who are offended by my statements.

It appears that may be a very conservative estimate......

Post by **Sharon** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:23 pm

LOL You guys kill me.

Getting back to the original question: It is very overwhelming to attend your first couple trials. There is a lot to learn. I remember thinking that when the Judge said, "Pick up your dog please." that I had to carry him all the way back to the car.

Post by **slistoe** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:28 pm

Sharon wrote:LOL You guys kill me.

Getting back to the original question: It is very overwhelming to attend your first couple trials. There is a lot to learn. I remember thinking that when the Judge said, "Pick up your dog please." that I had to carry him all the way back to the car.

At about that time you were wishing you had gone out at 45 sec. into the stake

deseeker · Post by **deseeker** » Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:50 am

Sharon wrote:LOL You guys kill me.

Getting back to the original question: It is very overwhelming to attend your first couple trials. There is a lot to learn. I remember thinking that when the Judge said, "Pick up your dog please." that I had to carry him all the way back to the car.

SO, HOW FAR DID YOU HAVE TO CARRY HIM

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:11 am

I think it important and most significant that none of the field trialers have said that a lack of ability of the dog, trainer, or handler was a barrier. Since I don't think it true, it would seem others don't either. There is plenty of talent in the hunting fields.

I still believe it is an aversion to competition, which I understand fully. My son is not at all competitive, does not like field trials, but enjoys hunting. I started him on his own pony at 6 years old, before he was 8 he had scouted an All-Age winners and handled a dog to an open win, and I offered to continue to take him and pay for it (no need for an adoption here). I get it, I really do, despite being athletic he did not participate in sports either.

But one thing he does not do is tell me how good he and his dogs are, he knows what my response would be.

Neil

Post by **slistoe** » Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:55 am

Neil wrote: I still believe it is an aversion to competition, which I understand fully.

This sentiment is manifested in this thread many times. "I am afraid of embarrassment."

Neil wrote:My son is not at all competitive, does not like field trials, but enjoys hunting. I started him on his own pony at 6 years old, before he was 8 he had scouted an All-Age winners and handled a dog to an open win, and I offered to continue to take him and pay for it (no need for an adoption here). I get it, I really do, despite being athletic he did not participate in sports either.

Your son is my son. Handled a derby dog to its first win at 8 yrs old. Was the first and only dog he ever handled. Absolutely loves the dogs, loves the training, hunts every chance he can - but will not handle a dog. Did not care to play in competitive sports either.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:59 am

I still believe it is an aversion to competition

With all respect..I think that is nonsense. I'm willing to bet that many who don't wish to field trial have been competitive in other areas of their lives. If you'd ever met me on a basketball court (before my ankles turned to mush!!), you wouldn't think that was the reason.

I think there are options to FT today that are more user friendly...NAVHDA for instance. Yes, you can just go for the day and dally around, but you can also train and put together a heck of a working dog without the horse, the trailer, the trainer, etc.
Years ago, it was FT or nothing....things have changed. I have run with dogs at 2 invitationals that didn't have a drop of FT blood in them that would gladden the heart of any bird dog man....there are different ways to get there. That said...you have to be thankful for those that do put in the time and money...every breed profits from these dogs.