Do you have or have you had Little's THE INHERITANCE OF COAT COLOR IN DOGS? Not shouting, just on a phone.Ms. Cage wrote:Sorry casey should Have said the small e. My mistake!!Cajun Casey wrote:No, lemon is recessive and each parent need carry only one copy to pass it on and produce and expressor with a carrying mate.
I can send you a copy of the LOCUS E chapter if you want one. PM me a snailmail addy.
Would it be better to sweep it under the rug and act like it never happened? If you could know genetically why this happened wouldn't you want to know?Ahumphers91a wrote:Yeah, even if they do have the "ee" trait...Why would Chuck want to spend more money on this debacle? I can imagine 2700 for frozen semen and you have a litter of 2 pup's who are white and orange.
Good for you. When you are tired of barking up trees, come on down and run NBHA with the rest of us outsiders. We're about to convince 'em that it isn't the tail that finds the bird!Hanshaw wrote:Monday I will order the e tests and for the DNA it is in the works waiting. I will spend as much money that it takes. Its a loss but I'm not going to sweep it under the rug I would like to find out what the story is. And we all wonder how we are out ran by blue dawn kennels. I talked to kieth and he said I was barking up the wrong tree.
I don't think so.ultracarry wrote:What I would be upset about is disclosure.
I would ask the person who I bought the frozen straws from and ask if they knew he was a carrier of the small e. If they knew and did not disclose it would make them liable for the cost of the breeding......
I could not agree more. Life is what is and get over it. This is a no win situation.fuzznut wrote:honestly, who cares about the ee or whatever. These puppies just should not be returned to the GSP gene pool.
Could mistakes have happened? Yes.
Should it be accepted? No
Should the owners of the stud and dam be told? Yes
From there.... responsible breeding practices should take over. Lemon or Orange GSP's simply should be sold as neutered gun dogs. The supposed pedigree be "bleep".
Hancock...they are not right, should not be bred, it is what it is. Do the right thing...
Dual
Cajun Casey wrote:There is no reason you cannot breed them to dogs who do not carry the undesirable allele. That's why the test is used.Hanshaw wrote:Is there any pointer guys that would want the responsibility of having one of these pups they are I thought highly breed. If there is nothing I can do with these pups I would like to share what I have a small fortune in the breeding.the orange is a little runt and the lemon is a nice sized female. I only need one for the constant reminder, I had a feeling that something like this would happen. There is a dog out of my second breeding two cutter that has a tint of red and have several with the white ear.
Yes. The owner is going to get the identification DNA done to address that question.myerstenn wrote:Has anybody considered the idea that the wrong semen was used in the insemination process???
Are you saying there is GSP in the Fidler line? Is it because of the color and ticking the fidler line produces?jasonw99 wrote:why are you acting like this is some Miracle? it's pointer showing through. the dogs will DNA. it happens time to time
whoever made the comment about a shorthair at Ames. if that was the case it would have happened a ling time ago. look at fidler look at shorthair. remarkable the likeness.
the best one I saw was a weim with white and weim patches. looked like a shorthair but grey instead of liver.
Exactly. Good move keeping that vial. Hang on to it.Hanshaw wrote:I have the vile the straw came in and it has printed on there sin city slick ace. Thanks to everyone for all the posts all I can do now is wait for the tests to come back. I don't think I'm the first and I won't be the last. Even if all the tests come clean if these pups were breed they would still carry this gene. And if the tests are negative than something is going on that I'm sure everyone would like to no.
Okay, if this is a simple "e" issue, both parents would have to carry that recessive allele to pass it on. They would both have to have the "E" also, to appear normal. In genetic terms, they would be phenotypcally normal carriers. When the puppy received a copy of the "e" from each parent, it would be fully recessive and have the off color coat.cleanslate wrote:Good afternoon, I hope all had a good holiday:
I will preface this post by stating that I know absolutely NOTHING about this specific situation, but I find the read to be very interesting. I appologize to the original poster that, it is at your expense. I do have a couple of questions, however: Someone replied that it Is ill advised to breed the pups, as well as the DAM in any future breedings. Is this because of the possibility that there is Pointer in the genes? If the Sire is proven to be somone other than what the vile claims, would that then clear the DAM for future breedings? Also what role would traits such as drive and temperment (etc) play in this scenario as far as the pups are concerned? Would this double ee that you speak of trump any other factors? Again, I APPOLOGIZE BUT I FIND THE WHOLE TOPIC OF GENETICS TO BE VERY INTERESTING.
Ken
ACooper wrote:This always gets funny, yes it could be a mutation, but it's more likely that there is pointer in the woodpile. is anyone really surprised by that?
I believe he mentioned it came from Wasserman, Tom.TAK wrote:Who sold you the straw?
End of story.northern cajun wrote:ACooper wrote:This always gets funny, yes it could be a mutation, but it's more likely that there is pointer in the woodpile. is anyone really surprised by that?
+4
Mark Wasserman is the owner of the straw. The semen was collected many years ago and is kept in storage at the collection site. The dog from which the semen is collected has to have been DNA'd at the time. The reason I know, I had semen collected from my dog. The vet. requested it and wanted the make sure the micro chip was correct for the dog. I also had to bring in registration papers and certified pedigree. I was not there when the semen was collected. But, this is reputable Vet Clinic and storage facilities. FC Sin City Slick Ace (Sire of Chuck's pups), which is out of NFC Heide's Mighty City Slicker. Ace has produced NFC Chisholm Creeks Cuttin Loose and NFC Chisholm Creeks Jax or Better, both with different bitches. Ace is grand sire of NFC BDK's Chloe's Jax of All Trades. I can name you several males and females that are out of Ace or he is the grandsire and they all are liver and white with liver patches and ticking. I currently have three off spring that are related to Ace and I purchased a daughter out of Ace that came from a Slick bred bitch. She has a liver head, liver spots and ticking. The bitch she came from, has produced produced three National Gun Dog Champions. And they are all liver and white with liver patches and liver ticking.TAK wrote:Who sold you the straw?
You are right but it is just as much a problem for the pointers.dead mike wrote:Sorry and not wanting to sound like a smart "bleep" but maybe its time to get a pointer.
My friend has gone through the same thing with a big name in the GSP gene pool and its just downright wrong.
No one is saying he doesn't produce winners, or that he only throws off color pups, that is an irrelevant argument to the topic at hand. Is this the first litter that you have heard of him throwing off color pups?Brooks Carmichael wrote:Mark Wasserman is the owner of the straw. The semen was collected many years ago and is kept in storage at the collection site. The dog from which the semen is collected has to have been DNA'd at the time. The reason I know, I had semen collected from my dog. The vet. requested it and wanted the make sure the micro chip was correct for the dog. I also had to bring in registration papers and certified pedigree. I was not there when the semen was collected. But, this is reputable Vet Clinic and storage facilities. FC Sin City Slick Ace (Sire of Chuck's pups), which is out of NFC Heide's Mighty City Slicker. Ace has produced NFC Chisholm Creeks Cuttin Loose and NFC Chisholm Creeks Jax or Better, both with different bitches. Ace is grand sire of NFC BDK's Chloe's Jax of All Trades. I can name you several males and females that are out of Ace or he is the grandsire and they all are liver and white with liver patches and ticking. I currently have three off spring that are related to Ace and I purchased a daughter out of Ace that came from a Slick bred bitch. She has a liver head, liver spots and ticking. The bitch she came from, has produced produced three National Gun Dog Champions. And they are all liver and white with liver patches and liver ticking.TAK wrote:Who sold you the straw?
Things happen in breeding's that we sometimes we have no control over and cannot explain. As for Chuck Hanshaw jumping my case in early post he may felt he was justified. But, I had experienced in something similar when I told him, he needed to move on. I have two cases that happened to me. One, where the DNA did not match up to the sire and I was unable to do anything about it because never could find out who the sire was. I did eventually get my money back after several months. Second time, I had a bitch I had bought and it came back with the proper DNA but when I bred her, she showed up with Demodetic Mange. Vet told me it showed up because of her immune system and the stress of having pups. I was informed all dogs carry it but their immune system keeps it in check so it does not develop. This is what Kansas state Vet. school told me along with my own vet. All the pups showed up with it. It is a genetic defect. I had to put all the pups down and including the ones I sold, before the problem was discovered. I gave everyone there money back. I tried to save the female by having her spade but it was to no good. After several hundred dollars in vet bills the vet said I needed to put her down. She was a field trial dog in which I had several thousand dollars invested in. But, I did the right thing and put her down. I did not blame the breeder because he did not know his female was a carrier. I let it go and moved on. Things like that happen.
As I said before I feel for Chuck he has put several thousand dollars out in this breeding. I made only a suggestion but it is his decision what he wants to do and only he can make it. I have met Chuck at a trial, in fact he tried to sell me a pup out of this breeding before they were born but, I had already purchased a Ace pup and did not want any another one at this time. As added note the Ace breeding was also artificially bred to a line bred Slick bitch. She produced liver and white pups.
Maybe when Chuck gets the DNA back he will know.
Is this the grandsire being mentioned, to the litter we're discussing now? I don't know much about these lines of pedigrees, but this post caught my eye a while back.Hanshaw wrote:Is there any pointer guys that would want the responsibility of having one of these pups they are I thought highly breed. If there is nothing I can do with these pups I would like to share what I have a small fortune in the breeding.the orange is a little runt and the lemon is a nice sized female. I only need one for the constant reminder, I had a feeling that something like this would happen. There is a dog out of my second breeding two cutter that has a tint of red and have several with the white ear.
I am glad Cajun Casey brought this up, it could make everything else moot. The tests will help no doubt.Cajun Casey wrote:There is a lot more to this than a paternity questions. The pregnancy and pups were not healthy. There could be something totally out in left going on with that sample that has nothing to do with Ace or "e." Get the tests results and go from there.
ezzy333 wrote:You are right but it is just as much a problem for the pointers.dead mike wrote:Sorry and not wanting to sound like a smart "bleep" but maybe its time to get a pointer.
My friend has gone through the same thing with a big name in the GSP gene pool and its just downright wrong.
Ezzy
That was my statement. I thought you mentioned having an eye infection problem with the runt was why I said that. There are a number of dogs of this bloodline who have had autoimmune associated illnesses that have caused early death. Cancer, nocardia and kidney failure have been documented.Hanshaw wrote:The pregnancy was a cesection if that is what you meant by unhealthy ultra carry. The pups are healthy and we are waiting on DNA and I ordered the e test today.
A recessive can hide for dozens of generations, then show up when two carriers are combined. With tight linebreeding, like here where the dam's dam is a littermate to the sire (Ace), the probability of that recessive meeting it's match are increased. Keep in mind, the E Locus is affected by other genes, so there may be something on the X that's acting here instead of it being a simple "ee."TAK wrote:So is it at all possible that we had a sneeeekkkkyyyy pointer jump the fence?
