Breeding...? Father X Daughter

[Fowlplay]

In breeding, the first rule should be to find and breed, "Best to Best". This applies to all aspects, natural ability, physical confirmation, temperament, range, ect. The second rule should be, once two candidates are found, "do they compliment each other"? Since no specimen is perfect, do the two in question add "strengths to the other's weaknesses"?

My opinion on this TAK would be, sometimes we can try too hard to duplicate an animal we've been blessed to have. By the process above, we do stand a more solid chance of achieving the desired outcome.

As to your question about dogs and cancer, I lost my dog of a lifetime to a rare Sarcoma in the lymphnodes around the heart at the young age of three. He was out of "Dandi Runaway Rusty" and a very solid German bred bitch = outcross. His littermate, a female is still alive at the age of ten with no health issues I'm aware of. Go figure!

[briarpatch]

I was looking at some old pedigrees when I came across the following information that I found interesting:

DC-NFC KAY VD WILDBURG x FC MY RITZIE FER GITUNBURDZ produced DC FEE VD WILDBURG

DC FEE VD WILDBURG was bred back to her sire (DC-NFC KAY VD WILDBURG)

DC FEE VD WILDBURG x DC-NFC KAY VD WILDBURG produced DA-LORS BRANDIE VD WILDBURG, IC= 26.39082

DA-LORS BRANDIE VD WILDBURG went on to produce Hall of Fame dog DC ESSER DUKE VD WILDBURG (ESSER CHICK x DA-LORS BRANDIE VD WILDBURG) and DC Timberdoodles Lancers Answer (NFC Ammertals Lancer D x DA-LORS BRANDIE VD WILDBURG).

Not bad for an inbred dog.

This is true there have been some greats produced by this type of breeding

However This COI I highly doubt is correct IC= 26.39082 or its not based on a true 10 generation pedigree , I dont believe a father daughter breeding has that low of an IC within our breed
an outcross of 2 different breeds is .25 father to daughter..would expect the IC to be more around .30 or higher if done properly from two dogs of the same breed, obviously they are from the same breed so they are almost bound to have some common ancestry in 10 generations

But thats neither here nor there, the question remains how many pups from that breeding were culled or carried over traits to the next gereration that needed to be culled?

Hustler is in the hall of fame as well and produced many great dogs and he was basically an outcross with an IC of somewhere around. .02 I believe so whats your point?

if its you can make great dogs by inbreeding father to daughter, yep you can,its been done but I think with a little research we can just as easily find plenty of examples of great dogs produced by complete outcrossing as well , and plenty of examples of great dogs produced by safer methods of linebreeding a little farther back in relation to the sire and dam , that lead to less dogs needing to be culled.

an example like this tells us nothing other than yep somebody did it and had success does that mean the success is worth the trouble's you may encounter when there are other methods that have also been proven to have success with less risk

every litter is a gamble question is do want the odds in your favor or stacked against ya with a little research you can tell a litter like this father to daughter the odds are not in your favor of having a healthy litter

[lvrgsp]

Unless you know what traits that breeding is most likely to produce and, unless you know what traits your looking for and, unless your willing to selectively breed upon those traits, and unless you know either through DNA or your own personal breedings of the dogs 10 gen ped, a 10 gen COI really is not worth much, it's a number, unless you know how to fully understand the dogs and traits your breeding upon....." Yea but with a high COI your more likely to get the traits of that individual dog" Yea yea yea I've heard it all before but go ask that guy/gal breeding high coi's what dogs traits they are more likely to get.....
Coi's have there place and have been useful to some, but IMO they have become a marketing tool for many and IMO those many are marketing the COI around one dog in which many never saw the old boy go, let alone what traits he had, and as much as folks throw his name out there and have linebred on him, he has never been duplicated.........

Here's a little COI ped for ya....put that in yer pipe and smoke er baby........
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=878
JMO

[postoakshorthairs]

Unless you know what traits that breeding is most likely to produce and, unless you know what traits your looking for and, unless your willing to selectively breed upon those traits, and unless you know either through DNA or your own personal breedings of the dogs 10 gen ped, a 10 gen COI really is not worth much, it's a number, unless you know how to fully understand the dogs and traits your breeding upon....." Yea but with a high COI your more likely to get the traits of that individual dog" Yea yea yea I've heard it all before but go ask that guy/gal breeding high coi's what dogs traits they are more likely to get.....
Coi's have there place and have been useful to some, but IMO they have become a marketing tool for many and IMO those many are marketing the COI around one dog in which many never saw the old boy go, let alone what traits he had, and as much as folks throw his name out there and have linebred on him, he has never been duplicated.........

Here's a little COI ped for ya....put that in yer pipe and smoke er baby........
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=878
JMO

No wonder all of those white moesgaard dogs look alike....geez that IB was a busy dude!

[Prairie Hunter]

I was looking at some old pedigrees when I came across the following information that I found interesting:

DC-NFC KAY VD WILDBURG x FC MY RITZIE FER GITUNBURDZ produced DC FEE VD WILDBURG

DC FEE VD WILDBURG was bred back to her sire (DC-NFC KAY VD WILDBURG)

DC FEE VD WILDBURG x DC-NFC KAY VD WILDBURG produced DA-LORS BRANDIE VD WILDBURG, IC= 26.39082

DA-LORS BRANDIE VD WILDBURG went on to produce Hall of Fame dog DC ESSER DUKE VD WILDBURG (ESSER CHICK x DA-LORS BRANDIE VD WILDBURG) and DC Timberdoodles Lancers Answer (NFC Ammertals Lancer D x DA-LORS BRANDIE VD WILDBURG).

Not bad for an inbred dog.

This is true there have been some greats produced by this type of breeding

However This COI I highly doubt is correct IC= 26.39082 or its not based on a true 10 generation pedigree , I dont believe a father daughter breeding has that low of an IC within our breed
an outcross of 2 different breeds is .25 father to daughter..would expect the IC to be more around .30 or higher if done properly from two dogs of the same breed, obviously they are from the same breed so they are almost bound to have some common ancestry in 10 generations

But thats neither here nor there, the question remains how many pups from that breeding were culled or carried over traits to the next gereration that needed to be culled?

Hustler is in the hall of fame as well and produced many great dogs and he was basically an outcross with an IC of somewhere around. .02 I believe so whats your point?

if its you can make great dogs by inbreeding father to daughter, yep you can,its been done but I think with a little research we can just as easily find plenty of examples of great dogs produced by complete outcrossing as well , and plenty of examples of great dogs produced by safer methods of linebreeding a little farther back in relation to the sire and dam , that lead to less dogs needing to be culled.

an example like this tells us nothing other than yep somebody did it and had success does that mean the success is worth the trouble's you may encounter when there are other methods that have also been proven to have success with less risk

every litter is a gamble question is do want the odds in your favor or stacked against ya with a little research you can tell a litter like this father to daughter the odds are not in your favor of having a healthy litter

Briar Patch,

Actually, DC-NFC Kay vd Wildburg & FC My Ritzie Fer Gitunburdz had few common ancestors in their previous 10 generations. As a result, DC Fee vd Wildburg only had an IC of 0.39494. Since a father x daughter breeding without common ancestors in the past 10 generations would have an IC=25.000, it is not hard to believe that Da-Lors Brandie vd Wildburg’s IC=26.39082.

Of course, at this point, there is no way of knowing how many, or if any, pups were culled from this breeding. You have to ask the breeders that question. However, you cannot assume, without proof, that any of the pups were culled. I’m sure some of them didn’t become great dogs, but that does not mean any were defective or unhealthy, and had to be put down. Are you making the assumption that there were puppies from this breeding, or from the next generation that had to be culled? Without some sort of proof to back it up, an assumption is all it is.

It is true that Hustler was a great dog, and sired some other great dogs. However, that doesn’t mean Hustler’s genetics were necessarily dominant. Many believe the most successful breeding ever done with Hustler was to Wendy v Enzstrand. That is why it was done 4 times. Those breedings produced such dogs as DC STRADIVARIUS BAROQUE, DC-AFC CEBOURN ERICK OF HUSTLEBERG, Can. CH Stradivarius Fugue, etc. There are some breeders today still linebreeding off of the dogs produced by the Wendy x Hustler cross rather than off of Hustler himself. When you look back behind Wendy, who do you find, Da-Lors Brandie vd Wildurg.

Of course, there have been great dogs produced by complete outcrosses. That has never been in question. However, the question is how often do the offspring of those outcrosses reproduce themselves? Hybrid Vigor is usually only evident in the fist generation. The odds of the F1 reproducing itself in successive generations are not that high. Conversely, linebreeding is not about producing a single great dog. It’s about passing along genetics that will continue to produce good dogs. Sometimes, selective inbreeding is a part of that process.

This example tells us a lot. It tells us that certain genetic traits were fixed in the lines by this breeding, and are still being passed along. There are too many good dogs to mention still carrying those genetics today. On your website, you laud the abilities of your dog Caliber. Do you realize his is the result of breeding on a specific mother line? Take a look at his pedigree. Did you notice that mother line goes directly back to Wendy v Enzstrand and Da-Lors Brandie vd Wildurg? Does that tell you anything?

You keep talking about the risks and poor odds of producing a healthy litter. However, what are the risks actually? How many inbred litters have you personally seen, or personally know about, that were unhealthy? What are the actual odds of a father x daughter cross producing an unhealthy litter when the dogs in question have been linebred for several generations, and those lines have been cleaned up? When the lines have been cleaned up by several generations of linebreeding, and most of the problem causing recessives have been eliminated, I would bet the odds are not very high.

[Prairie Hunter]

Unless you know what traits that breeding is most likely to produce and, unless you know what traits your looking for and, unless your willing to selectively breed upon those traits, and unless you know either through DNA or your own personal breedings of the dogs 10 gen ped, a 10 gen COI really is not worth much, it's a number, unless you know how to fully understand the dogs and traits your breeding upon....." Yea but with a high COI your more likely to get the traits of that individual dog" Yea yea yea I've heard it all before but go ask that guy/gal breeding high coi's what dogs traits they are more likely to get.....
Coi's have there place and have been useful to some, but IMO they have become a marketing tool for many and IMO those many are marketing the COI around one dog in which many never saw the old boy go, let alone what traits he had, and as much as folks throw his name out there and have linebred on him, he has never been duplicated.........

You are correct, the COI does not tell you everything. You have to understand it, know what traits you are breeding on, and how they are being passed along. I would not do a father x daughter breeding just because I could.

Here's a little COI ped for ya....put that in yer pipe and smoke er baby........
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=878
JMO

Surely most of these dogs must have all kinds of health problems and multiple heads and tails! It's a wonder any of them lived long enough to reproduce.

[briarpatch]

Prairie,
Of course I very aware of my dogs motherline and who is in it but plain and simple you have several people on here who admitted doing this type of breeding and honestly told you of the results, pups born with no anuses and such, if thats healthy than I dont know maybe I am confused, I guess a pup with no anus would be good if you dont want to shovel any poo out the kennel...

Seriously though I think if you study inbreeding father to daughter you are going to find the few honest people about it that have done it usually end up doing alot of culling. Would you agree with that statement? it has been proven in every type of animal on the planet not just dogs but sheep, horses, cows ,mice
I have no problem and agree with your statement if a line had been previously cleaned up by this method then theoretically you should result in less genetic problems with the resulting pups. Does that mean all the resulting pups will be free and clear of all genetic disorders NO they may indeed be high carriers of the bad genes. Also then if its been previously cleaned by this method and one is repeating the process as has been proven in many animals many develope inbreeding depression which leads to smaller litters and smaller animals a supressed imunity system the list goes on..

As I said the COI is neither here nor there but please send me the complete 10 generation COI you did on Da-Lors Brandie vd Wildburg’s IC=26.39082 I would love to see it , I cant say its definitely not correct or a full ten generations but I can say I highly doubt it I would expect to see more of a IC like was in Moesgaard's Coco 43% which was the result of a brother sister mating as shown in Liver GSPs pedigree but yes thats an assumption on my part or lets call it an uneducated guesstament ..

so yes these are assumptions based on only reading the history of other breeders, breeders not only of dogs but of cows, horses , sheep, mice and reading geneticists articles but almost all have similar conclusions ,
you are right I have made much assumptions and am not afraid to admit it., but the assumptions made though are not without merit though in the history of breeding..

But to jump to the assumption you are going to breed and get all great or even any replica's of the dog you are attempting to reproduce through a father daughter breeding is another assumption on someone's part and that they are all going to be healthy is an even greater assumption and more than likely as history has shown time and time again not true..

I have only revisited this topic due to the fact I feel it is an injustice some are doing to portray to others this is a safe responsible breeding and to show things like hey this guy did it and got a great dog, So what, you have made an assumption as well or are pretending as though this is the only way to produce great dogs when you truly know it is iffy at best and more than likely will result in unhealthy pups anyone who has done any amount of reading on the subject knows to inbreed that tight you more than likely have to cull and sometimes cull a lot..

As I said before to each their own breed as you see fit and breed what you believe is going to do the most to improve your dogs, But if some are going to portray to others the possible positives of a breeding this close I think its just as important to point out the possible negatives. JMO

[TAK]

Prairie,
Of course I very aware of my dogs motherline and who is in it but plain and simple you have several people on here who admitted doing this type of breeding and honestly told you of the results, pups born with no anuses and such, if thats healthy than I dont know maybe I am confused, I guess a pup with no anus would be good if you dont want to shovel any poo out the kennel...

I thought that it was a Son to mother breeding that caused this litter of culls? I don't believe that it was a Father to Daughter breeding.

[Prairie Hunter]

Prairie,

Of course I very aware of my dogs motherline and who is in it but plain and simple you have several people on here who admitted doing this type of breeding and honestly told you of the results, pups born with no anuses and such, if thats healthy than I dont know maybe I am confused, I guess a pup with no anus would be good if you dont want to shovel any poo out the kennel...

Seriously though I think if you study inbreeding father to daughter you are going to find the few honest people about it that have done it usually end up doing alot of culling. Would you agree with that statement? it has been proven in every type of animal on the planet not just dogs but sheep, horses, cows ,mice

There are also several people on that have responded to this thread, and admitted to doing similar breedings or owning pups out of similar breedings where the resulting pups had no health problems and no pups were culled. Don’t their experiences count? I believe those people are being just as honest as the ones that said they experienced problems. So, I cannot agree with the statement they ended up doing a lot of culling.

Further, I do not believe it has been proven in every type of animal. Cattle breeders have been creating prepotent bulls through selective inbreeding for 100 years. Considering cows usually only have one calf per year, and there is only a 50% chance it will be a male, it would be next to impossible to create prepotent bulls if there was a lot of culling going on as a result of inbreeding. Since this is their livelihood, wouldn’t it make sense that they would not continue to do it if it did not work for them?

I have no problem and agree with your statement if a line had been previously cleaned up by this method then theoretically you should result in less genetic problems with the resulting pups. Does that mean all the resulting pups will be free and clear of all genetic disorders NO they may indeed be high carriers of the bad genes.

There are only so many detrimental or fatal recessive genes and gene combinations that are going to be carried by any dog. Most of them will express themselves rather quickly during the line breeding process. Once those detrimental recessives are removed from the gene pool, they can never come back unless you outcross or there is some sort of mutation. Therefore, the resulting puppies should not be carrying a large amount of detrimental genes.

Also then if its been previously cleaned by this method and one is repeating the process as has been proven in many animals many develope inbreeding depression which leads to smaller litters and smaller animals a supressed imunity system the list goes on..

I never mentioned repeating the process. Successful inbreeding is done on a selective basis and for specific reasons as a part of a line breeding process. If you base your entire breeding program on inbreeding, I’m sure inbreed depression will become a problem at some point. However, I know breeders that have been line breeding successfully for more than 30 year, and have not had that problem yet.

As I said the COI is neither here nor there but please send me the complete 10 generation COI you did on Da-Lors Brandie vd Wildburg’s IC=26.39082 I would love to see it , I cant say its definitely not correct or a full ten generations but I can say I highly doubt it I would expect to see more of a IC like was in Moesgaard's Coco 43% which was the result of a brother sister mating as shown in Liver GSPs pedigree but yes thats an assumption on my part or lets call it an uneducated guesstament ..

Da-Lors Brandie vd Wildburg’s IC was calculated and published by breeders with far more experience calculating ICs than I have. They also had better access to pedigree information than I would be able to access today. It really wouldn’t make much sense for me to try redo what they have already done. Therefore, I will accept their calculations as valid unless proven otherwise.

You only need to take a quick look at Moesgaard’s Coco’s pedigree to realize both of Coco’s parents were inbred, sharing the same sire. In just 3 generations, there is 1 dog that shows up 4 times in the pedigree (twice on both the top and bottom), and another that shows up twice (once on both the top and bottom). That is why Coco’s IC is so high.

When you look at Brandie, you don’t see anything like that. As far back as I could trace, there is only one common ancestor, Kay vd Wildburg. He shows up twice (once on top and once on the bottom). Considering Kay was a German Import, it is easily conceivable that he didn’t have many ancestors in common with My Ritzie Fee Gitunburdz for 10 generations.

But to jump to the assumption you are going to breed and get all great or even any replica's of the dog you are attempting to reproduce through a father daughter breeding is another assumption on someone's part and that they are all going to be healthy is an even greater assumption and more than likely as history has shown time and time again not true..

I’m not sure where you got that from. The goal of inbreeding and line breeding is to fix certain desirable trait in a line that can be passed on to successive generations in an attempt to produce consistently good dogs. Producing a replica of a great dog would be great, but I doubt that would be a realistic expectation. However, if done properly, from lines that have been cleaned up, I would expect most, if not all, of the resulting puppies to be healthy. It is the same expectation I would have of an out cross breeding.

I have only revisited this topic due to the fact I feel it is an injustice some are doing to portray to others this is a safe responsible breeding and to show things like hey this guy did it and got a great dog, So what, you have made an assumption as well or are pretending as though this is the only way to produce great dogs when you truly know it is iffy at best and more than likely will result in unhealthy pups anyone who has done any amount of reading on the subject knows to inbreed that tight you more than likely have to cull and sometimes cull a lot..

I made no such assumption, nor did I state anything like that. You must not have read what I posted. I clearly stated, “Of course, there have been great dogs produced by complete outcrosses. That has never been in question.” Please do not twist the meaning of what I posted.

My intent in responding to Tak was to give him additional information to consider as he tries to make a breeding decision. It was not intended to tell him to do it. I do not see where the “injustice” is in that. The example I cited, was just that, one example. There are more examples of similar breedings that have also been successful, some of which were posted here. At the end of the day, Tak will make his own decision on whether or not he wants to try that breeding.

[TAK]

http://flyingjkennel.netkennel.com/Pedi ... F+Microdot

[ACooper]

That pedigree is ultra tight as was previously mentioned, I am going to guess that micro dot was also a good producer?

[ezzy333]

That pedigree is ultra tight as was previously mentioned, I am going to guess that micro dot was also a good producer?

You would guess right on Microdot.

I would breed father/daughter or mother/son in a minute if I had good dogs to start with and I wanted to strengtheb those characteristics. Could you have a problem, yes , but highly unlikely. I have done it many times and never had to cull a pup and never had a genetic fault appear. Years ago, you migh have had nore likely hood of having some defect but today most of those are gone.

I do think a lot of people do not understnd just how it works and the advantages of doing it. Way to many old wifes tales still floating around.

If you like what you have and want more like them definately linebreed, not to improve your dogs but to stengthen the characteristics and gain uniformity. then outcross to try and improve what you have.

Ezzy