Gun Dog Forum

jasonw99 wrote:a shorthair is an English pointer with a docked tail. the tail length is what u judge.

This couldnt be more wrong! 2 totally different animals. I currently own both and it isn't close. The pointer is a far superior athletic breed. All the GSP only guys can cry all you want about this, but its the truth. The top level GSP's can't even come close to competing with the top level pointers. Its not even a topic. On the flip side, the GSP is a way more dominate versitile breed. Not even close! A pointer isn't made to retrieve doves, duck and geese.

To answer the original question: I believe a lot of it is perception of both breeds. To be honest why would anyone in the world want a Weim? A GSP can kick that things butt in every aspect of hunting, no doubt. But people still sell weims. If it was all about function, the weim wouldn't exist. If you hunted strictly quail, you would own only a pointer. If all you did was duck hunt, you'd own a Lab. ETC, ETC, ETC......

To be honest why would anyone in the world want a Weim? A GSP can kick that things butt in every aspect of hunting, no doubt. But people still sell weims. If it was all about function, the weim wouldn't exist.

I dunno, was at a trial 2 weeks ago and a wiem finished its AFC beating a bunch of GSP's, V's, and Britt's. it was a nice dog.

They are popular because they are good.

Chukar12 wrote:...darn it, I came off looking bad again., darn you Ruffshooter where is Ryman when I need him...?

LMAO

AHGSP wrote:

brad27 wrote:

You've never seen a grouse dog LOL!

Selctive seeing?
Pics don't load?
Blind in one eye?
Blind in the other eye?
Afraid to admit you're wrong?
Terrible trolling skills?

Help me out here dog master, slayer of the almighty grouse. I can't quite figure you out.

I'm guessing ALL of the above and the reason he can't post a picture with his super Grouse Pointer/Setter(s) and a Grouse is because he doesn't actually know how to shoot them, only how to blank them off with his cap gun

Never met a good bird dog I didn't like personally, the owners however may be another matter.

Over a hundred years you would thing a GSP could have at least managed and honorable mention at a grouse championship.........guess they've been to busy studying for a fur test.

Chukar12 wrote:Dont raise your cartoon animated eyes at me...
you arent the boss

Grouse Dog Guy wrote: Over a hundred years you would thing a GSP could have at least managed and honorable mention at a grouse championship.........guess they've been to busy studying for a fur test.

Still at it huh.

Start a brag thread telling us about you and your dogs many exploits and all of your wisdom learned in the grouse woods and I'm sure the majority of us would love reading about it.

I just don't get your need to continue this trolling of a thread asking the simple question of why are GSP's popular. I think we all understand your position on the issue is that they shouldn't be. That's your opinion and you are sure welcome to it. But why the need to keep on and on here about how much better your grouse dogs are then any GSP like you are trying to convince yourself of it ? Do you really need to keep runing down GSP's to feel good about yourself and your dogs ? I should hope not.

Over a hundred years you would thing a GSP could have at least managed and honorable mention at a grouse championship.........guess they've been to busy studying for a fur test. [/quote]


Where do you live GDG? how bout we just drop some of your stock on the ground and I will bring along a little short tailed bitch and we can actually see. We can run on your home turf, neutral turf where ever, talk is cheap or better yet send me a premium to that grouse trial I'll show up!!

In general Vagas I agree with everything you say, as I usually do - on average the pointers are superior athletically to GSP's. The odds of reaching into a litter of pointers and coming out with an animal of decent endurance, heat tolerance, etc. is far better than reaching into a litter of GSP's - undisputed. If all someone wants to do is be a competitive big circuit field trialer, you'd be silly not to have a pointer, no doubt. You are incorrect though on this:

The top level GSP's can't even come close to competing with the top level pointers.

There just isn't that much difference in the individual dogs abilities at that level - the difference is in who is running them/who is prepping them/the stakes they get entered in/how hard they're tested and prepared for the task/etc. I've personally hunted, trained, competed head to head with many,many top level AA pointers/setters (far, far more than I have the GSPs for sure - heck, I've got a 5x AA/Nat. Qualified Ch. pointer and his 3X SD Ch. mother running around in the dog yard with my GSP's out back right now) that have been campaigned competitively all over the country with my personal, far from "top level", GSP's . We've been competitive/found our share of birds/brought home our share of trophies/ garnered respect from my longtail competitors when we show up to play that they're gonna have to beat us, for the statement "can't even come close to competing" to hold water. Bugs went out in the first brace at the Nat'l Am. Chukar AA this spring and gave the boys a few days of heartburn that a GSP was gonna win the thing until the pair in the last brace just plain beat him - far from not "even close to competing" in the open eyes of any birddogger (3 Nat'l Ch. qualified pointers in the stake if you consider that top level). I give you the nod on the breed averages being disparate, especially with regards to heat tolerance/endurance, but can't concede that the top tier dogs of each breed are as mismatched as you've stated...I've spent too much time in the field, seen too much with my own eyes to give ya' that one! Give me more time off to get a handful of 'em adequately prepped, a couple more bullets to enter to better my odds of a decent draw/luck/karma/etc. at each trial than the one or two I currently show up with and I'll make a believer out of ya'! The hard part with GSP's is finding the top level bullets to play that game...my odds are better of finding one with a pointer! (I'd wager the same above argument could be applied on pointer's behalf in the "versatility" department)

DGFavor wrote:In general Vagas I agree with everything you say, as I usually do - on average the pointers are superior athletically to GSP's. The odds of reaching into a litter of pointers and coming out with an animal of decent endurance, heat tolerance, etc. is far better than reaching into a litter of GSP's - undisputed. If all someone wants to do is be a competitive big circuit field trialer, you'd be silly not to have a pointer, no doubt. You are incorrect though on this:

The top level GSP's can't even come close to competing with the top level pointers.

There just isn't that much difference in the individual dogs abilities at that level - the difference is in who is running them/who is prepping them/the stakes they get entered in/how hard they're tested and prepared for the task/etc. I've personally hunted, trained, competed head to head with many,many top level AA pointers/setters (far, far more than I have the GSPs for sure - heck, I've got a 5x AA/Nat. Qualified Ch. pointer and his 3X SD Ch. mother running around in the dog yard with my GSP's out back right now) that have been campaigned competitively all over the country with my personal, far from "top level", GSP's . We've been competitive/found our share of birds/brought home our share of trophies/ garnered respect from my longtail competitors when we show up to play that they're gonna have to beat us, for the statement "can't even come close to competing" to hold water. Bugs went out in the first brace at the Nat'l Am. Chukar AA this spring and gave the boys a few days of heartburn that a GSP was gonna win the thing until the pair in the last brace just plain beat him - far from not "even close to competing" in the open eyes of any birddogger (3 Nat'l Ch. qualified pointers in the stake if you consider that top level). I give you the nod on the breed averages being disparate, especially with regards to heat tolerance/endurance, but can't concede that the top tier dogs of each breed are as mismatched as you've stated...I've spent too much time in the field, seen too much with my own eyes to give ya' that one! Give me more time off to get a handful of 'em adequately prepped, a couple more bullets to enter to better my odds of a decent draw/luck/karma/etc. at each trial than the one or two I currently show up with and I'll make a believer out of ya'! The hard part with GSP's is finding the top level bullets to play that game...my odds are better of finding one with a pointer! (I'd wager the same above argument could be applied on pointer's behalf in the "versatility" department)

That about wraps up that dispute.

That about wraps up that dispute.

He used a lot of words...I bet he has an administrative assistant

Chukar12 wrote:

That about wraps up that dispute.

He used a lot of words...I bet he has an administrative assistant

All those words and no pics... I think it might have been an imposter.

All those words and no pics... I think it might have been an imposter

...this is my suspicion

Grouse Dog Guy wrote: Over a hundred years you would thing a GSP could have at least managed and honorable mention at a grouse championship.........guess they've been to busy studying for a fur test.

How about you give us the entries broken down by numbers for the last 50 years?

DGFavor wrote:In general Vagas I agree with everything you say, as I usually do - on average the pointers are superior athletically to GSP's. The odds of reaching into a litter of pointers and coming out with an animal of decent endurance, heat tolerance, etc. is far better than reaching into a litter of GSP's - undisputed. If all someone wants to do is be a competitive big circuit field trialer, you'd be silly not to have a pointer, no doubt. You are incorrect though on this:

The top level GSP's can't even come close to competing with the top level pointers.

There just isn't that much difference in the individual dogs abilities at that level - the difference is in who is running them/who is prepping them/the stakes they get entered in/how hard they're tested and prepared for the task/etc. I've personally hunted, trained, competed head to head with many,many top level AA pointers/setters (far, far more than I have the GSPs for sure - heck, I've got a 5x AA/Nat. Qualified Ch. pointer and his 3X SD Ch. mother running around in the dog yard with my GSP's out back right now) that have been campaigned competitively all over the country with my personal, far from "top level", GSP's . We've been competitive/found our share of birds/brought home our share of trophies/ garnered respect from my longtail competitors when we show up to play that they're gonna have to beat us, for the statement "can't even come close to competing" to hold water. Bugs went out in the first brace at the Nat'l Am. Chukar AA this spring and gave the boys a few days of heartburn that a GSP was gonna win the thing until the pair in the last brace just plain beat him - far from not "even close to competing" in the open eyes of any birddogger (3 Nat'l Ch. qualified pointers in the stake if you consider that top level). I give you the nod on the breed averages being disparate, especially with regards to heat tolerance/endurance, but can't concede that the top tier dogs of each breed are as mismatched as you've stated...I've spent too much time in the field, seen too much with my own eyes to give ya' that one! Give me more time off to get a handful of 'em adequately prepped, a couple more bullets to enter to better my odds of a decent draw/luck/karma/etc. at each trial than the one or two I currently show up with and I'll make a believer out of ya'! The hard part with GSP's is finding the top level bullets to play that game...my odds are better of finding one with a pointer! (I'd wager the same above argument could be applied on pointer's behalf in the "versatility" department)

I'll agree with a lot of that. I don't feel we know what the GSP is totally capable of to be honest. The top level pros in AF get more out of their animals than the pros in the AKC. Partially because more is demanded from the pointers/setters(3 hr national). Also, the AF pros make their money in purses. AKC gives ribbons. Makes ya want to work harder for money IMO. Like you said and what I was getting at, its a % game. You will have a better chance grabbing a pointer pup to compete at the top level then grabbing a GSP pup. Im not saying that some aren't capable. There are some bad arse GSP's out there for sure. But they seem to be more few and far between than the pointers.

Now are you basing this on Field Trialing only??? I think the Shorthair would kick the EP's bum retrieving duck, hunting in rice etc. GSP, The All Purpose Dog!

Chukar12 wrote:

That about wraps up that dispute.

He used a lot of words...I bet he has an administrative assistant

I dictated it on the hospital stat hotline...

Did I mention anywhere in there my wife is getting a p-p-p-pointer??!! I've heard the phone calls and seen the emails. You think you know someone.

Over a hundred years you would thing a GSP could have at least managed and honorable mention at a grouse championship.........guess they've been to busy studying for a fur test.

And the next track on this broken record is.....................................

Did I mention anywhere in there my wife is getting a p-p-p-pointer??!! I've heard the phone calls and seen the emails. You think you know someone

...look at the difference in the tails
I wouldn't read anything into it though.

Feed what you like and like what you feed!
Some have been around long enough to have walked behind several different breeds; and know no one breed fits all.

I thought GDG was talking about bird hunting. If I ran AA field trials, of coarse I would have pointers! Also, I will go along with the fact that, in general, the pointer is more athletic, although not as much so now days as years ago. But as far as just being a good bird dog, saying one breed is better than the other is strictly opinion an/or preference....not fact. There was a time when I would have agreed that the pointer was a superior breed over the gsp for bird hunting, but it is not the case, with the GSPs of today.

Charlie

brad27 wrote:

Over a hundred years you would thing a GSP could have at least managed and honorable mention at a grouse championship.........guess they've been to busy studying for a fur test.

And the next track on this broken record is.....................................

First documented litter of GSPs to be welped in the US was july 4 ,1925. AF stud books 125225. In 1900s germany started the breed standard.The breed it self barely over a 100yrs.

You just simply cannot have a thread about GSPs without the "pointer only" people having a collective cow!

Charlie

birddogger wrote:You just simply cannot have a thread about GSPs without the "pointer only" people having a collective cow!

Charlie

I own both man. Actually just got a GSP pup out of some GOOD stuff. There isn't a breed bias here.

[/quote]Over a hundred years you would thing a GSP could have at least managed and honorable mention at a grouse championship.........guess they've been to busy studying for a fur test. [/quote]



I wonder if there has been any other breed but an EP, or ES ever win or finish runner up in a Grouse dog trial?

The whole concept about of basing broad qualitative judgements about whole breeds based on field trial statistics is bankrupt.

First documented litter of GSPs to be welped in the US was july 4 ,1925. AF stud books 125225. In 1900s germany started the breed standard.The breed it self barely over a 100yrs.

Ok, so the EP is superior in athletics department, i get that. thats what they were bred for. do you guys think that with the change in breeding (DK to the American GSP) and the things that go along with it (more AA type dogs) that in say 10,20,30 years we will see the gap between the EP and GSP get smaller?

Graydawg who is a member here won a derby stake with his GSP in a cover dog trial last fall I believe.If he sees this maybe he will give the facts as I don't want to screw it up.Granted this is not a CH ship but you have to start some where.The fact is that there aren't many GSPS that run cover dog stakes because of the long tail tradition & hold on them. Like the lottery you have to play to win or atleast have a chance!!

DGFavor wrote:

Chukar12 wrote:

That about wraps up that dispute.

Did I mention anywhere in there my wife is getting a p-p-p-pointer??!! I've heard the phone calls and seen the emails. You think you know someone.

GSP - Why So Popular?

Thats what Doc favors wife is wondering

brad27 wrote:

First documented litter of GSPs to be welped in the US was july 4 ,1925. AF stud books 125225. In 1900s germany started the breed standard.The breed it self barely over a 100yrs.

Ok, so the EP is superior in athletics department, i get that. thats what they were bred for. do you guys think that with the change in breeding (DK to the American GSP) and the things that go along with it (more AA type dogs) that in say 10,20,30 years we will see the gap between the EP and GSP get smaller?

As long as they can keep crossing EP in they will get closer and closer

As long as they can keep crossing EP in they will get closer and closer

did you forget to add an emoticon to that?

GSP - Why So Popular?

Thats what Doc favors wife is wondering

My wife is a competitive sort...the loud competitive sort that you don't want to sit next to if you are rooting for the other team, the type that'll reach across the car, nearly crashing it, to honk at someone if they in some fashion, imperceptable to me, disturb her peaceful travel in the passenger seat...OK, she's a trash talker!! Anyway, she's new to the field trial thing - a sport of gentlemen I think most of us would agree. We're riding along in the gallery at Sunnyside this spring watching a couple pointers do their thing and Lils chimes up at me from across the other side of the sizable gallery "Trixie is soo gonna kick these dog's a--!!". Geeeaaawwd woman - isn't it enough to nearly get me beat up at football games and at random intersections!!?? Had to explain to her that this was a different game, one of camraderie where we assist each other beating our collective brains out, had to fill her in that above all, never trash talk that your husband's Sunday afternoon, liver roan/don't look like the others, stubtail hunting dog is gonna "kick the a---'s of whatever sorry rawbones you tinhorns can bring to the line!!" - yah, that was a good one too. I don't know, I'm thinking maybe she'll fit in better on the other team.

Traitor:

ymepointer wrote:

brad27 wrote:

First documented litter of GSPs to be welped in the US was july 4 ,1925. AF stud books 125225. In 1900s germany started the breed standard.The breed it self barely over a 100yrs.

Ok, so the EP is superior in athletics department, i get that. thats what they were bred for. do you guys think that with the change in breeding (DK to the American GSP) and the things that go along with it (more AA type dogs) that in say 10,20,30 years we will see the gap between the EP and GSP get smaller?

As long as they can keep crossing EP in they will get closer and closer

You know what,Maybe if we breed in a brindle or white Grayhound we can really Take The Money at the trail. They're might be 100 birds on course ....IT only takes one Find to Win! Right!! I really hate when my dog finds to many birds. Cuts down on my run and I really hate getting up and down off my saddle..Look at that 12 o'clock tail. That's a bird finding machine.

DGFavor wrote:

GSP - Why So Popular?

Thats what Doc favors wife is wondering

My wife is a competitive sort...the loud competitive sort that you don't want to sit next to if you are rooting for the other team, the type that'll reach across the car, nearly crashing it, to honk at someone if they in some fashion, imperceptable to me, disturb her peaceful travel in the passenger seat...OK, she's a trash talker!! Anyway, she's new to the field trial thing - a sport of gentlemen I think most of us would agree. We're riding along in the gallery at Sunnyside this spring watching a couple pointers do their thing and Lils chimes up at me from across the other side of the sizable gallery "Trixie is soo gonna kick these dog's a--!!". Geeeaaawwd woman - isn't it enough to nearly get me beat up at football games and at random intersections!!?? Had to explain to her that this was a different game, one of camraderie where we assist each other beating our collective brains out, had to fill her in that above all, never trash talk that your husband's Sunday afternoon, liver roan/don't look like the others, stubtail hunting dog is gonna "kick the a---'s of whatever sorry rawbones you tinhorns can bring to the line!!" - yah, that was a good one too. I don't know, I'm thinking maybe she'll fit in better on the other team.

Traitor:

LOVE your post DGFAVOR, very funny your wife and i would get along great ......ruth

That is laugh out loud funny stuff Doc

Doc, was it that darn Rich H. (jr. or Sr.) that turned her to the dark side?

DGFavor wrote:

GSP - Why So Popular?

Thats what Doc favors wife is wondering

My wife is a competitive sort...the loud competitive sort that you don't want to sit next to if you are rooting for the other team, the type that'll reach across the car, nearly crashing it, to honk at someone if they in some fashion, imperceptable to me, disturb her peaceful travel in the passenger seat...OK, she's a trash talker!! Anyway, she's new to the field trial thing - a sport of gentlemen I think most of us would agree. We're riding along in the gallery at Sunnyside this spring watching a couple pointers do their thing and Lils chimes up at me from across the other side of the sizable gallery "Trixie is soo gonna kick these dog's a--!!". Geeeaaawwd woman - isn't it enough to nearly get me beat up at football games and at random intersections!!?? Had to explain to her that this was a different game, one of camraderie where we assist each other beating our collective brains out, had to fill her in that above all, never trash talk that your husband's Sunday afternoon, liver roan/don't look like the others, stubtail hunting dog is gonna "kick the a---'s of whatever sorry rawbones you tinhorns can bring to the line!!" - yah, that was a good one too. I don't know, I'm thinking maybe she'll fit in better on the other team.

Traitor:

Doc that made me spit out my beverage! Too funny.

ElhewPointer wrote:

birddogger wrote:You just simply cannot have a thread about GSPs without the "pointer only" people having a collective cow!

Charlie

I own both man. Actually just got a GSP pup out of some GOOD stuff. There isn't a breed bias here.

Just having some fun Elhew.

Charlie

[quotYou know what,Maybe if we breed in a brindle or white Grayhound we can really Take The Money at the trail. They're might be 100 birds on course ....IT only takes one Find to Win! Right!! I really hate when my dog finds to many birds. Cuts down on my run and I really hate getting up and down off my saddle..Look at that 12 o'clock tail. That's a bird finding machine.rschmeider
Rank: Junior Hunter
Well said, but I am not sure you need a find at all to win. A good GSP has only one objective and that is to find birds....that is his biggest weakness when competing against pointers.

BTW, Elhew Pointer, you say you own both breeds. If you go back and read my post that you commented on, you will see that I said "pointer only" people.

Charlie

Vision wrote:

Over a hundred years you would thing a GSP could have at least managed and honorable mention at a grouse championship.........guess they've been to busy studying for a fur test. [/quote]



I wonder if there has been any other breed but an EP, or ES ever win or finish runner up in a Grouse dog trial?[/quote]

From "The complete German Shorthaired Pointer.

FDSB has Rusty v Schwarneberg as besting the long tails on several occasions.

Chukar12 wrote:That is laugh out loud funny stuff Doc

X10! That is just plain "Hall of Shame" stuff there Doc! That should be pinned somewhere permanently!

Post by leeave96 » Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:29 pm
I have been scanning posts and looking at some dogs listed for sale and even in my neck of the woods, it seems that the German Shorthaired Pointer is a very popular dog.

What sets these dogs apart from others that make it so desirable? I assume they are great quail dogs, what about grouse? How are they as a family dog?

Sorry your thread got hijacked. I have a shorthair (my second) and she is a great grouse dog. She also excels at woodcock and adores stalking ducks. I live in Maine so the only quail she's seen were training/ released stuff but she does those too. Pretty much anything i have an inclination to shoot she'll pick up on with minimal fuss from me ( I'm gunna work rabbits into her repertoire this year). She retrieves to hand and has really been a pleasure to train. I am a fairly novice trainer on the bird aspects and she has forgiven all my blunders and screwups and still turned out great. I do believe she wishes i was a better shot. Mine is (mostly) an angel in the house. She's great with kids and normally pretty quiet. Do not! however, sneak up on my place at night, she won't like it and will let half of town know. But anyways I believe that shorthairs are so popular because they are truly versatile. They handle birds and fur with equal aplomb. They track, mine found both the deer last year i asked her to and she had never "officially" been taught to bloodtrack (she also can find most of my friends and family by name and has tracked down the neighbors house cat when it gets out idk how many times). She does all this stuff in addition to just being a great everyday dog. She'll go fishing with me, hang at the beach, watch a parade. Play Frisbee, hide and seek with the kids, or just be content to snuggle down and watch a movie on the couch. Lately she's learning some dockdog stuff with my girl and having a blast doing it. They are just great all around dogs. Does she do things as well as other dogs i've seen? Maybe not. But the point is she can do it all and look "bleep" good while doing it. Find one from a good breeding and I dont think you can go wrong.

with 200+ posts does this constitute HOF status?

Nice post Eastbeast... I currently have an EP and I've had Labs in the past... Several friends have GSP's and I find them to be a great all around breed. Love hunting with them... Bottom line is they're popular 'cuz they're a great breed for alot of stuff and good with familys too... Wouldn't mind owning one myself. Gotta say tho' , this thread is a hoot! I love it when someone starts a thread with a good question and it takes on a life of it's own!..

EastBeast

Well said!!! ares plays hide inseck with kids too. she evens helps the wife carry groceries in the house makes every trip till shes done..carries fire wood in the house,helps me find my arrows when i miss the target. And 2012 she will be running the NAVHDA Initational out midwest an shes only 2yrs old. The thing i like best is she brings me beer sum times, It makes kinda like GSP's for sum reason.. just saying

I have read many time that the GSP wins just as many trials as the pointers on a percentage of entries. Just need to have more people want to run withthem. But I understand why you don't as I still think everybreed was bred to hunt in a certain style and I have no desire to see every breed hunt like a pointer. If I did I would get a pointer but I kind of like what the Brits do even though some are trying to breed them to a setter or pointer standard.

Ezzy

ezzy333 wrote:everybreed was bred to hunt in a certain style and I have no desire to see every breed hunt like a pointer

The joke is that ther are 3 different breeds of Pointers.

IN the

Ron R wrote:

ezzy333 wrote:everybreed was bred to hunt in a certain style and I have no desire to see every breed hunt like a pointer

The joke is that ther are 3 different breeds of Pointers.

In the development of the GSP? They're was the spanish pointer and Braque Francais/ french pointer..Then in 1907 germans needed more nose and they bred in the Arkwright pointer.GSP where bred for the gun.

rschmeider wrote:IN the

Ron R wrote:

ezzy333 wrote:everybreed was bred to hunt in a certain style and I have no desire to see every breed hunt like a pointer

The joke is that ther are 3 different breeds of Pointers.

In the development of the GSP? They're was the spainish pionter and Braque Francais/ french pointer..Then in 1907 germans needed more nose and they breed in the arkwright pointer.

I was referring to the walking ep's, the horseback shooting dog ep's, and the all-age ep's. Although, the lines do get blurred from time to time.

Did the Germans need more nose?
You are confusing wanting to raise the head with needing more nose.