What holds Newb's back from Trialing?

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 9:42 am

The reason I am intrigued by the trials is because I am more interested in the dogs than the killing. I would be much happier with a dog performing greatly on a dozen birds then shooting a limit. I will chase birds every chance I get whether it is season or not as long as they are mature enough for my dog not to catch them and have as much fun as if I were carrying a gun. When I go duck hunting I go to smoke cigarettes, drink coffee, hang out with the dog and muck around with the boys and raz each other about how terrible we shoot. I would rather my dog make 3 nice retrieves then bring in 3 limits sloppily, or go get them myself. I just like seeing the dogs do what they love. I don't agree with birdogz fishing analogy. I can go catch chub and perch every cast if I would like, I would much rather catch one salmon or bass. You also left out a key commponent. Fishing is an individual sport. The main reason I fish again is to drink beer on the water and muck around with the boy's. Not saying I am above anyone for not loving to kill but it is certainly rated well back of many other things in my books.

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 9:53 am

Winchey, when I kill a limit of pheasants with a friend in ND we are going to get FAR more bird contacts than most trials. 6 rooster points, but usually 20-30 more points on hens. Throw in sharpies and the occasional Hun covey, and you are putting your dog into more birds.

I don't normally fish for chubs.

I like Mahi-Mahi, Cobia, Snapper, Tarpon, Snook, Shark, Grouper, etc.

The point I was trying to make is that a dog searches, points, holds, the bird is harvested, the dog retrieves, or hunts dead, and then retrieves. Just gives the dog more work. Throw in the limit of geese and ducks in the morning before the upland hunt, and the dogs are having more fun than they do being released for 1 hour in a field full of released birds that they don't get to hold in their mouth. Also, call me crazy, but I like to shoot birds, and eat them.

Coveyrise64 · Post by **Coveyrise64** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:14 am

Birddogz wrote:Winchey, when I kill a limit of pheasants with a friend in ND we are going to get FAR more bird contacts than most trials. 6 rooster points, but usually 20-30 more points on hens. Throw in sharpies and the occasional Hun covey, and you are putting your dog into more birds.

The point I was trying to make is that a dog searches, points, holds, the bird is harvested, the dog retrieves, or hunts dead, and then retrieves. Just gives the dog more work. Throw in the limit of geese and ducks in the morning before the upland hunt, and the dogs are having more fun than they do being released for 1 hour in a field full of released birds that they don't get to hold in their mouth. Also, call me crazy, but I like to shoot birds, and eat them.

You're one sick dude!.........(When can I come up?)

Coveyrise64

tn red · Post by **tn red** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:58 am

Birddogz wrote:Winchey, when I kill a limit of pheasants with a friend in ND we are going to get FAR more bird contacts than most trials. 6 rooster points, but usually 20-30 more points on hens. Throw in sharpies and the occasional Hun covey, and you are putting your dog into more birds.

I don't normally fish for chubs. I like Mahi-Mahi, Cobia, Snapper, Tarpon, Snook, Shark, Grouper, etc.

The point I was trying to make is that a dog searches, points, holds, the bird is harvested, the dog retrieves, or hunts dead, and then retrieves. Just gives the dog more work. Throw in the limit of geese and ducks in the morning before the upland hunt, and the dogs are having more fun than they do being released for 1 hour in a field full of released birds that they don't get to hold in their mouth. Also, call me crazy, but I like to shoot birds, and eat them.

So im guessing you have ran your dogs for a hour off horseback on released birds?How did they do?

Post by **slistoe** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:01 pm

tn red wrote: So im guessing you have ran your dogs for a hour off horseback on released birds?How did they do?

They had no fun.

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:08 pm

I have run my dogs off of HB 2 times for prairie chickens/sharpies in the Sand hills. They did well. It was fun. I'd rather walk though. I need the exercise, and have no desire to own horses, trailers, etc. I like to jump out for a quick 1.5 hour hunt without the hassle of all that jazz. I also can't imagine riding horses through cattail sloughs.

Post by **slistoe** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:14 pm

Wouldn't it be easier just to type No?

tn red · Post by **tn red** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:19 pm

Birddogz wrote:I have run my dogs off of HB 2 times for prairie chickens/sharpies in the Sand hills. They did well. It was fun. I'd rather walk though. I need the exercise, and have no desire to own horses, trailers, etc. I like to jump out for a quick 1.5 hour hunt without the hassle of all that jazz. I also can't imagine riding horses through cattail sloughs.

I cant imagine walking as far as i run dogs in a day either.Whats in cattails that a horse cant handle ?Really im just asking i've never saw one so i have to beleive you.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:27 pm

Red...it would work better...you could stand on that horse like you were in that picture of the one you were selling. You could see further.

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:29 pm

I will never argue that you can cover more ground on HB. That is for sure.

Cattail sloughs are full of hazards. When they haven't frozen over, they are 3 ft. of mud and can have deep water. You could avoid them early in the year, but late in the year that is where the birds go. A 1200 pound horse with a 250 pound man on it are going to slip on ice, or break through the ice which would be a nightmare of a situation. ALso, many times you are hunting a 20 acre patch. Lots of work to load and unload a horse for a 30 minute hunt. Early in the year in the grasslands for sharpies and Huns a horse would be ideal, with the exception of the rockier areas. I will be very upfront, I am not a huge fan of horses. I think they are beautiful, but I have had my issues with them, and they are pricey, and yet another responsibility.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:47 pm

For me it has always been hard to get into something new without a mentor [as was mentioned earlier] or somebody to get me started. Not that I won't do it on my own, it just takes a while to get the motivation. Also, this thread seems to be focusing on horse back trials, which are just not feasible for many of us. Although, I think I would enjoy them, there are a lot of other venues that fit my situation as far as travelling time, budget, etc. NAVHDA and NSTRA are just a couple. I prefer hunting above all, but am happy there are other venues in which I can enjoy my dogs in the off season if I choose to do so. I don't understand why anybody would criticize another person's interest. They are all a way to meet other like minded people, watch good dogs, different breeds and most of all, enjoy running our dogs, which is what we are all interested in. Just my .02 cents worth.

Charlie

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:53 pm

Charlie,

It seems to have focused on HB events because some have driven it that way. The better question would be what keeps people from organized/sanctioned events. I don't care if you enjoy HB dogs, walking FT dogs, NAVDHA dogs, NSTRA dogs or HT dogs. The question is, what are the obstacles?

This very spring our local breed club is putting on a HT. The Chair is calling around looking for judges....and not having much luck. The pool of judges is shrinking, and some that are left, people won't run a dog under. So I see the problem from two directions. Entry to the sport and retention in the sport.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:00 pm

Understood Dan. The first part of my post gives my thoughts on what may hold some people back.

Charlie

Coveyrise64 · Post by **Coveyrise64** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:02 pm

Birddogz wrote:I will never argue that you can cover more ground on HB. That is for sure.

Cattail sloughs are full of hazards. When they haven't frozen over, they are 3 ft. of mud and can have deep water. You could avoid them early in the year, but late in the year that is where the birds go. A 1200 pound horse with a 250 pound man on it are going to slip on ice, or break through the ice which would be a nightmare of a situation. ALso, many times you are hunting a 20 acre patch. Lots of work to load and unload a horse for a 30 minute hunt. Early in the year in the grasslands for sharpies and Huns a horse would be ideal, with the exception of the rockier areas. I will be very upfront, I am not a huge fan of horses. I think they are beautiful, but I have had my issues with them, and they are pricey, and yet another responsibility.

Hey, you don't have to appologize for anything. They're the one's that should be sorry for even bringing that crap up again. Trolling seems to be their favorite pastime. You're just diggin that hole deeper guys........ :roll:

Coveyrise64

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:09 pm

Yes, a mentor would be the best.

But there seems to be a gradual disconnect to the sport. 15 years ago when we were running our first dogs in events, AKC HT's, it was very common for nearly everyone of the dogs to be owner trained and handled. Now the bulk of the SH/MH dogs, at least in our area, are trained and run by a pro. So maybe a mentor could help that but, that's not gonna help much if the kids have soccer, baseball, football, tennis, swimming, wrestling, hockey...........etc.

People have got to want to do "it". And the today people can do "it" is through a pro. But that really makes for the detached exhibitor. They maybe come watch the dog run, collect a ribbon (or not) and head for home. So it's hard for those to become in the actual hands on portion of the event, much less the dog. It leads to fewer people keeping things going, which often leads to burnout.

It's a complex issue.

tn red · Post by **tn red** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:11 pm

birddogger wrote:For me it has always been hard to get into something new without a mentor [as was mentioned earlier] or somebody to get me started. Not that I won't do it on my own, it just takes a while to get the motivation. Also, this thread seems to be focusing on horse back trials, which are just not feasible for many of us. Although, I think I would enjoy them, there are a lot of other venues that fit my situation as far as travelling time, budget, etc. NAVHDA and NSTRA are just a couple. I prefer hunting above all, but am happy there are other venues in which I can enjoy my dogs in the off season if I choose to do so. I don't understand why anybody would criticize another person's interest. They are all a way to meet other like minded people, watch good dogs, different breeds and most of all, enjoy running our dogs, which is what we are all interested in. Just my .02 cents worth.

Charlie

+ 1 Charlie i love a good birddog & like trying new things ive never tried.Last year i joined GDF just because not many bird hunters left around here.I had only bird hunted never even been to a field trial.As a matter of fact only dog i owned was a dropper

& really felt trials where a joke after all i loved to bird hunt.After meeting some guys on here that trialed & invited me to go with them im hooked, ive saw dogs that blew me away.

orbirdhunter · Post by **orbirdhunter** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:17 pm

Back to the original question so to speak......For me i am a hunter first and foremost. But i have other hobbies that i enjoy during the off season. The main one being fly fishing.
Horse back field trails completely don't interest me for two big reasons. One, even though my wife is a avid horse rider and we have 3 horses out in a pasture right now I am not, i have no interest in riding horses what so ever so any kind of horse back trial is completely out.
Second, being a hunter i sometimes have a hard time understanding the scoring system on the one field trial i attended. The top 3 dogs had 2 points combined....there was at least 2 dogs that had 3 points/finds each that didn't place. The explanation was loosely explained to me as that the top dogs hunted better,showed more style and should have found more birds.....ok, but they didn't.....
You can see may dismay. Knowing a little bit more about it now i at least understand what the people were trying to tell me. But that is in no way shape or form how i judge bird dogs so its of no interest......

Having said all of that, I had never heard of walking type events such as NSTRA until very recently. Although it sounds like its still along ways from hunting it at least scores on finds,pointing,retrieving etc.....this type of event looks to be alot cheaper for someone to get into and might be a fun way to spend a few weekends getting the dog some kind of extra work until bird season rolls around. I also see that there is a few in my general area so i might go and watch one to see what its all about.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:13 pm

If I follow some of this correctly, some people do not field trial because they hunt thick 20 acre sloughs, is that right?

I hunt a good many shelter belts for pheasants, and I don't do it from horseback or K-Mule, nor with pointing dogs at all.

I own 4 Boykins that do very well in such places, better than any pointing dog I have ever seen in that situation. I don't know why you would ask a pointing dog to do something spaniels are generally much better at.

I mention this, because as competitive as I am with the pointing dogs, I have never had the inclination to trial my Boykins, although finished (hup on sound or flight, turn on command, and retrieve to hand) I enjoy just hunting them. So I do understand.

Neil

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 5:05 pm

Neil,
I've always owned labs but just got I springer. I've been reading up on the hunt tests, and trials and they want steady to flush and shot. I can't see where this would be useful as a hunter, although I've read some reasons (multiple retrieves). If their are multiple dogs going for a retrieve I just whistle mine off. Do you find it practical in the field?

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 5:10 pm

An honest pointing dog in cattail sloughs is far superior to a flushing dog in my opinion. They have to have the ability to be thorough, yet have the patience to hold the game. What is easier to shoot, a bird that is pointed, or a bird that is pushed until it flies? A point to me is far easier. Maybe you need to hunt with pointing dogs that understand how to hunt and pin roosters, and not out run game. A good pointer should be able to handle any situation, especially birds in tight. This is the part I have never understood. If a trial/hunting dog runs and adjusts to game, as many on this forum insist they do, there should be no difference. In truth, many times, FT dogs run too big. This is where hunting dogs earn their stripes. They point and hold point in tight cover, and don't over run the situation. They then retrieve in tough circumstances. I find it funny that when the cover gets tight that many FT guys simply say you need a flusher. In truth, you need a pointer with some experience on birds.

Shouldn't they adjust to cover?

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 5:35 pm

An honest pointing dog in cattail sloughs is far superior to a flushing dog in my opinion.

Now I got my laugh in for the day!!!. I always thought that people were picking on you until you made this statement, Maybe you have never seen a good dog.I guess its a matter of preference, I stick with the flushers every time in cat tails. Never had a problem of bird flushing out of range unless they are just flushing wild. Plus I don't have to listen to those dumb beepers.

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 6:46 pm

Bro, why would I use beepers? I have a Garmin. Dogs search and point. What is easier, a dog that pushes a bird at their own mind, or a dog that points them, and lets me take my time? Sounds like you have never owned a good pointing dog. Mine hunt as I want them to. A good hunting dog adjusts to the cover.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 6:51 pm

gpblitz wrote:I thought this thread was about Newb's and Trialing !!!!

You must have stepped out and missed the flushing sound.......

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:06 pm

Just got back from a weekend trial. The trial itself lost money but the president of the club felt it was a great success.

It seems that the sponsoring club serves a wide variety of interests and they have been somewhat successful in integrating those interests. At this trial there were conformation folks helping out and a number of them were genuinely interested in what the heck was going on and how it was conducted. There were spaniel folks there who did both field and conformation.

I got to talk to some of the field spaniel folks and I think there will be a flushing dog event in my future agenda. Sounds like something I need to see. I have hunted over some well trained spaniels a couple of times in my life and they absolutely blow me away.

The biggest success might just be a nice young man with a very nice puppy. It was a Braque of some sort...du Bourbonnaise I think, but in any case, it was a really nice youngster. He got himself a puppy ribbon and was really excited. The club president and a couple of others encouraged the young man to come and run his dog. It was very nice to see.

This club has horses available for those who wish to rent one(at considerable expense to the club) and advertises a wide variety of stakes walking and horseback. Unfortunately their date is very early in the season and a lot of folks north of us are still buried in snow and ice.

It was very refreshing to be able to talk dogs with folks that were truly interested in learning about another way to enjoy their dogs. A few of the conforamtion folks that were"volunteered " to help stock the fields got a great view of some pretty nice dogs doing their thing. It was kinda cool to have brittanys, pointers, GSP's, and GWP's all competing together in an American Field sanctioned event. That doesn't happen all that often.

Hopefully watching a few nice dogs perform both instigated some questions and answered some questions about what one should be looking for in this kind of dog.

I think the more we take the time to show, to explain to be inclusive, the more interest will be generated. However, that time may be difficult to find when one is juggling responsibilities and trying to keep the event on track.

I wonder what success has been had fr clubs sponsoring "mock trials" to introduce new folks to the sport in a less intimidating, more educational way.

RayG

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:32 pm

Some people use flushers on the goruse and woodcock here but this is what our pointing trials are run in

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 9:36 pm

nikegundog wrote:Neil,
I've always owned labs but just got I springer. I've been reading up on the hunt tests, and trials and they want steady to flush and shot. I can't see where this would be useful as a hunter, although I've read some reasons (multiple retrieves). If their are multiple dogs going for a retrieve I just whistle mine off. Do you find it practical in the field?

Yes, it is part of keeping the dog under control so he does not flush birds out of range or when you are not in position.

For those that do not know, when hunting with a well trained flusher, you hup the dog with voice or whistle if, when on a bird, he gets to the limit of gun range. He is to hup to the flush or shot so as not to flush other birds, and mine are trained to hup on sight of a pointing dog or a flushing dog that has hupped. You turn him as he crisscrosses in front of you with voice or whistle so he is always within gun range. If you watch the dog he will give you plenty of notice he is on birds, I rarely have one flush without warning.

The reason they should honor another retrieve is both manners and to not flush other birds.

It is not that my pointing dogs won't hunt small cover patches, it is just I have never seen one that could do it nearly as well as a good spaniel. I find a dog that points and creeps, then self-relocates to point and creep some more boring. I do not like getting my adrenaline up going in front of dog only to have the bird run off, have a relocation, only to repeat. With a good flusher, unless hupped, the bird has a choice, he flies or gets his butt bit.

I hunt pointing dog on big ground where a dog can pen them at some distance with less need for relocation, flushers when the birds are in a smaller area, and rarely, both together.

If your measure is birds in the bag, then for pheasants, I find a flusher is almost always a better choice than a pointing dog, and in tight cover the advantage goes up further. And I have only seen a few pointing dogs that are a match in retrieving as a spaniel, next to a Lab or Chessie, it is what they do best.

As I said, I train my Boykins to field trial standards, but choose to just hunt them.

Neil

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:10 pm

I bet my DD could fetch your Boykin,

I kid.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:33 pm

Trials are good....tests are good....I support anyone that supports hunting/dog work...without us all doing this, the "greenies" will shut us down. That said, for me there is nothing like matching wits with wild game. As I said before, I believe its the tough birds that define a dog...I expect every dog to handle liberated quail in hedgerows...that is not the measure of a dog. I don't think we get better dogs through lower expectations but through higher expectations. As long as we recognize trials/tests for what they are, they are a positive....I just never kid myself that when my dog does great in a test/competition, its not the final measure of the dog...the dog hasn't been tested yet...the hurdle hasn't been jumped. That happens on wild game..in the field..in the duckblind...the morning after a deer goes missing and we're called to track it...that's when the dog shows me what its got.....JMHO.

ckirsch · Post by **ckirsch** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:52 pm

Why do some of you insist that it's an either/or situation? In most areas, the hunting season is over the first of the year, and it's a long time until next September. I'd wager that if we could ask our dogs, they'd be quick to vote for tests and trials in the off-season, as it beats the heck out of sitting in the kennel. My first priority is hunting, but the testing I've been fortunate enough to be involved with has made the long off-season months go by a lot faster, and my dog's training on backing, retrieving, handling, steadiness, etc. sure payed dividends when our grouse and pheasant seasons rolled around. The tests also broadened my horizons on dogs and training, as well as providing an opportunity to meet some great folks. I'm sure not able to identify any downside to it, and hope to expand into new testing and trialing venues in the future.

Coveyrise64 · Post by **Coveyrise64** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:22 pm

ckirsch wrote:Why do some of you insist that it's an either/or situation? In most areas, the hunting season is over the first of the year, and it's a long time until next September. I'd wager that if we could ask our dogs, they'd be quick to vote for tests and trials in the off-season, as it beats the heck out of sitting in the kennel. My first priority is hunting, but the testing I've been fortunate enough to be involved with has made the long off-season months go by a lot faster, and my dog's training on backing, retrieving, handling, steadiness, etc. sure payed dividends when our grouse and pheasant seasons rolled around. The tests also broadened my horizons on dogs and training, as well as providing an opportunity to meet some great folks. I'm sure not able to identify any downside to it, and hope to expand into new testing and trialing venues in the future.

It is an either/or situation. Either train or test right up to the Invitational and then head for the prairies.

I got to see a couple of great big smiles this year because someone else was willing to spend their summer training or testing. I'm pretty sure they felt it was worth the effort.

Coveyrise64

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Mon Feb 07, 2011 12:06 am

birddogz people dont train their dogs to handle "any" situation that they come across... You hunt roosters in cattail sloughs, I hunt chukars in wide open cheat grass canyons. Your dogs would find more birds than mine hunting pheasants, since they are experienced. Mine would bury yours in the chukar hills, since they have experience. I am heading to a FT this weekend and will hit a few more this spring. I hunt and trial and have never yet ran into anyone that you seem to lump all but the 2-3 "trialers" that you know who are nice and the rest are assholes. FT are a blast, they challenge you to make the best of your dog and the best part I get to chase birds in the offseason! Better than sitting around complaining about how mean FT's are!

mofro14 · Post by **mofro14** » Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:01 am

Until September of 2010 I had never hunted any wild birds other than Turkey, never had a dog before December of 2009, and never even had a dog of any type when I was a kid at home, so I consider myself quite a newb to the whole world of dogs, pointing dogs, hunting, testing or trialing. I am quite a researcher when it comes to any purchase major or minor so when it came to a dog, which I had been wanting to get but had to wait until I had the time/space/money, I spent lots of time looking. I ending up finding a nice pup from a NAVHDA breeder so I started loking into NAVHDA. He didn't require NA testing or anything like that, but me coming from a competitive background and realizing that testing him would be good for me to learn the pointing dog ropes I decided to give it a try. I know that NAVHDA isn't exactly what the original post was about, but my extreme newb situation seems to fit well with what he is looking for.

- Some people negate cost being a factor, but for me having zero dog things around, even getting started just to have a dog, much less train it, was expensive. Food, kennel, leashes, collars, bowls, beds, bird launchers, birds, e collar, additional travel. These were all new to me, they add up. I know I didn't HAVE to get all these things but I don't like to half butt things.

- Intimidation is a factor, even coming into NAVHDA which is a very open arms environment, I pull into a function my plastic kennel and there are kennel trailers and shiny built in kennels around. Everyone has dog training attire, if you don't think there is dog training attire you have been around for a while, there just seems to be a style to a dog trainer. As someone who hadn't even hunted yet with a dog you want to ask a question but aren't even sure of the right lingo.

- Nuances of the test or trial: There seems to be a lot of little nitpicky things to some of these tests or trials. Some of this is tough to see or learn just by watching. NAVHDA is very good about this but even with them there is a lot of new info.

- Time: It does take a lot of time to reach a high level with a dog, but as it has been said earlier, if someone really wants to do it they make time.

Things that helped me out as a new guy:
- Good breeder that was willing to answer many calls and texts with questions
- I got lucky, called a local guy before I even had the pup to ask a few questions about NAVHDA, ended up training with him all year and hunted with him too which was def helpful too. So having the mentor was big. Possible mentor program for some of the trials??
- Good dog

(in my eyes)
- NAVHDA has a lot of ways that a new person can help themselves to. Intro test sessions, training sessions, organized group training, lots of information on the website. I am not sure how some of the trials are organized but having a practice trial that is relaxed might help, and LOTS of info on a website with a FAQ section or something along those lines. This way a guy could read into it and develop some questions with a little background info.

Hopefully this helps the OP with what he might be looking for, I don't know I probably just rambled too much!

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:17 am

Why do some of you insist that it's an either/or situation?

Hope you didn't mean me. I think you do both....trials/tests get the dog ready....separate the dogs out...then you go head on head with wild game. Over 40 years, I have had dogs that did a good job....only had 2 dogs that were truly great on wild game....every day....in the toughest conditions...just pin down birds consistently....show me sharpies in the wind from 50 yds but pin a running rooster a few minutes later.....make the tough retrieves....find cripples an hour after the shot....tough conditions separate out the good from the great...that's all I'm saying.

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:46 am

Elkhunter wrote:birddogz people dont train their dogs to handle "any" situation that they come across... You hunt roosters in cattail sloughs, I hunt chukars in wide open cheat grass canyons. Your dogs would find more birds than mine hunting pheasants, since they are experienced. Mine would bury yours in the chukar hills, since they have experience. I am heading to a FT this weekend and will hit a few more this spring. I hunt and trial and have never yet ran into anyone that you seem to lump all but the 2-3 "trialers" that you know who are nice and the rest are assholes. FT are a blast, they challenge you to make the best of your dog and the best part I get to chase birds in the offseason! Better than sitting around complaining about how mean FT's are!

I completely agree, but there are many on here that tell me that FT dogs are so biddable that they will hunt any cover perfectly. I personally have not witnessed this. Dogs trained to hunt to the front on horseback generally don't hunt cattail sloughs thoroughly, in my experience. Not the dogs fault at all, but I have been crucified on this forum for such silly talk.

V-John · Post by **V-John** » Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:56 am

ckirsch wrote:Why do some of you insist that it's an either/or situation? In most areas, the hunting season is over the first of the year, and it's a long time until next September. I'd wager that if we could ask our dogs, they'd be quick to vote for tests and trials in the off-season, as it beats the heck out of sitting in the kennel. My first priority is hunting, but the testing I've been fortunate enough to be involved with has made the long off-season months go by a lot faster, and my dog's training on backing, retrieving, handling, steadiness, etc. sure payed dividends when our grouse and pheasant seasons rolled around. The tests also broadened my horizons on dogs and training, as well as providing an opportunity to meet some great folks. I'm sure not able to identify any downside to it, and hope to expand into new testing and trialing venues in the future.

Best post of the thread by far.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:43 am

Trials are good....tests are good....I support anyone that supports hunting/dog work...without us all doing this, the "greenies" will shut us down

Well said. This has always been my point. We need to stick together, we have plenty of enemies out there.

Charlie

DSemple · Post by **DSemple** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:56 am

As an X-Trialer, I’m of the opinion that we should be discouraging Field Trials for anybody under the age of say 40, and for those over 40 who can’t show appreciable levels of disposable income and time.

Trialing should come with a warning label like cigarettes.

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:39 pm

I have 2 field trial dogs and a 3rd on the way that will hunt any cover I take them too. I have one in particular who has been trialed from PA to NE and he can win anywhere in between. He also has been hunted in the grouse woods of the UP, SE Ohio and the mountains of PA. My old girl points (not very long), flushes and retrieves all in one. Saves me lots of shells! They are good dogs who are smart. They get wild birds shot over them. They happen to do more field trialing than wild bird hunting because it is CHEAPER for me to field trial than wild bird hunt. (See where I am from). I also hunt test my dogs and expose them to anything I think is beneficial. A good dog will excel in any venue you expose it to on a regular basis - and that is a fact.

I hate this crap that hunting dogs are better at putting meat on the table. Lets drop the tailgate.......

Justin

V-John · Post by **V-John** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:12 pm

That's the thing. Why can't the dogs do both? Why can't they trial and hunt? Mine do. They know the difference. I don't normally hunt with a crowd following me on horses, so Riley knows it's a trial. He runs big. When we hunt, he shortens up. They hunted 45 days this year for pheasant, quail and prairie chicken. They will go to a trial almost every weekend, once the season starts.

Can't we all get along?

ckirsch · Post by **ckirsch** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:13 pm

This thread motivated me to send in the entry for my first NSTRA trial this morning. I realize that falls somewhat short of the horseback events, at least in some folks' perspective, but it sure sounds like a lot of fun, and the prospects of my dog hunting any wild birds in frozen sloughs in April are pretty slim. I suspect that we'll get our heads handed to us, but I'm looking forward to the trip. The twelve hours of round-trip road time is a bummer, especially since gas will probably be around $4 per gallon by then....

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:16 pm

Hey man, just remember one thing. At the end of the day when you are walking out of the field with your dog, did you have fun? Did you enjoy watching your dog do it's thing? Did you have a positive attitude about it and meet some nice people and see some nice dogs? That's what it is about.

Notice I didn't say a trial, hunting, NSTRA, NAVHDA, AKC, etc. Just go have fun and enjoy yourself - no matter what it is you are doing. Be a good sport and steward.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:32 pm

Don't tell Nolan Huffman that NSTRA isn't important...I venture it changed his life. Went from messing with tile I believe to spending all his time with dogs, a pretty wife and half or more of his time in Montana

sully511 · Post by **sully511** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:57 pm

I got one other thing....The premiums are very hard to understand. It says the trials are Sat and Sun., but is it an option for a person to enter on only one day, do you get a run both days, or is it once per weekend.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 4:07 pm

The dogs are entered in different stakes so if you enter in more then one stake you could run both days or both those stakes could run the same day. So it all depends on what stakes you enter & what days they are run on.It takes more then one day to run all the different stakes,most wk end trials are run on Sat & Sun but some take 3 days usually starting on Friday.

Busterb · Post by **Busterb** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:11 pm

What I have found in my limited experience of field trialing is the following. If I enter my dog and it doesn't make a good showing or doesn't place somehow that reflects upon me as a person. It means that I am not a good trainer or that my dog and me are no good. How this attitude happens I don't understand, but I have heard it many times and that is the reason I feel people don't enter trials as they are afraid to fail or even worse be embarrassed in front of others.

If you enter a trial you will get more help and advise from the AF trailers than you ever dreamed and maybe even some mentors to help you out in training as well.

You'll never know until you give it a try.

sully511 · Post by **sully511** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:15 pm

Thanks for the info

I do agility and in the premiums you can pick and choose which day you want, if you want to enter in standard and jumpers with weaves or just one or the other, so these are just a little different for me and a little hard to follow. I guess the best way to find out is to get in touch with the trial secretary or committee.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:20 pm

Sully,

It was really hard for me, I have only been at it 18 months but people are really nice about helping. Just count on some flex time, you almost have to be there the whole time as schedules are rarely exact because of mutiple stake conflicts especially with pros and those on judging assignments...but once you are there and in the flow it hardly matters because its pretty relaxing

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:28 pm

Busterb wrote:What I have found in my limited experience of field trialing is the following. If I enter my dog and it doesn't make a good showing or doesn't place somehow that reflects upon me as a person. It means that I am not a good trainer or that my dog and me are no good. How this attitude happens I don't understand, but I have heard it many times and that is the reason I feel people don't enter trials as they are afraid to fail or even worse be embarrassed in front of others.

If you enter a trial you will get more help and advise from the AF trailers than you ever dreamed and maybe even some mentors to help you out in training as well.

You'll never know until you give it a try.

Were that the case, then I am a terrible person, because I have lost more than I have won. My personal worth is just not that tied to my dogs, win or lose.

One of the greatest guys I know, well liked and treated with great respect by all, seldom won, doubt he placed 1 in 30+ runs. But he loved dogs and his dog loved him, he has retired now, and we miss him and his dog, but he just got too old and infirmed. One of the worst people I have ever met, wins a lot, has very good dogs, but no morals, none, he is known and treated as such.

I hope what you say is a regional thing, I don't think I have ever seen it,

Neil

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:06 pm

That's the thing. Why can't the dogs do both?

I agree..as long as the final word is on wild game. I don't field trial but every time I look in the freezer, I don't know how I'm gonna eat all those birds/ducks/geese/rabbits!!! doggone slack tailed bootlickers!!! Guess I should trial more and hunt less...that way I'll be doing the responsible thing and eating everything I shoot...yup!!!...sounds like a plan

Busterb · Post by **Busterb** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:46 pm

Neil wrote:My personal worth is just not that tied to my dogs, win or lose.Neil

Agree 100 % Mine isn't either, but I do know it's out there, and hopefully it won't hold people back from giving trialing a chance.