Trial competition question?

[baileydog2007]

This will be off topic, but I have a question when it comes to "range". I talked to a lot of EP breeders before I chose to get one. The guy I talked to (Brian I think) from Chokebore/Elhew Kennels, said I am the toughest kind of guy to get comfortable hunting behind a EP, cuz I have always hunted Labs and will have the tendency to want to have the EP hunt at a distance Ive grown accustomed to hunting off my labs. So, with that in mind, Im trying to think of the grouse terrain I hunt, if my pointer is 200yds away on point, in some of that thick stuff, it might take me a half hour to get there. Im honestly trying to figure out how a rangey dog, in thick cover works, never having had the opportunity to do it?? IDK, maybe this is a completely ridicolous/stupid question, but Im struggling with it.

[Chukar12]

Just because a dog has the "ability", the genetic predisposition" or the "tendency"to do a certain thing, it does not follow that the dog "must ' do that certain thing.

As regards ground application, especially the concept of "range"...just because a dog has the "ability" to cover ground a half mile or more distant from its hunter/handler that does not mean the dog MUST hunt at a half mile or more.

There are plenty of dogs that do not have the ability, genetic predisposition or tendency(or whatever else you may wish to call it) to do that. So they do not...because they are not wired that way.

Now, is it easier to get a dog to hunt close, that is genetically predisposed to hunt close? Of course it is!! That, in and of itself, has very little to do with improving the breed, unless the breed is designed to hunt close, like flushing dogs. To deliberately breed a pointing breed for close working, is, in some ways...breeding down, not up, in my opinion.

To breed in that manner is to breed so that the marginally competent trainer can obtain a serviceable hunting dog with the minimum amout of training. That ain't the point, and it never should be...when one is talking about improving the breed.

Ray, I would like to pick your brain and my question is levied in all sincerity. I agree with you, when I think of my purpose, effort, experience and training education but what if others don't? For instance, what if half of the hunters in the country do their hunting on preserves that average 40 acre fields? Would you suggest Miller pointers to them? I know and meet a lot of hunters, some have the temperment and desire to be dog trainers and others don't. While they profess to be in love with good dog work, they are not enamored by the steps it takes to achieve it. So, they fix the problem with pressure, in my opinion that is why you see flagging dogs, flat tails, moving heads, etc... Aren't there breeds and lines within the breeds that are better suited to this market segment? I am not suggesting a watering down of any breed per se, but could a breeder choose a different path to serve a purpose or need as they see it and still be legitimate?

[Cajun Casey]

I'm sorry, but breeding for a market segment is what got the world Labradoodles. Maybe breeders should just not sell to some people.

[kensfishing]

I'm sorry, but breeding for a market segment is what got the world Labradoodles. Maybe breeders should just not sell to some people.

I agree 110%. Flagging is a confidence issue. Most people don't know how much pressure is too much or not enough. Bottom line. We take AA dogs and run them in 2 minute time trials or competitions to speak. We make them stand broke in tower shoots and retrieve when told to. Breeding is key, what you think you can do with it is something else.

[slistoe]

This will be off topic, but I have a question when it comes to "range". I talked to a lot of EP breeders before I chose to get one. The guy I talked to (Brian I think) from Chokebore/Elhew Kennels, said I am the toughest kind of guy to get comfortable hunting behind a EP, cuz I have always hunted Labs and will have the tendency to want to have the EP hunt at a distance Ive grown accustomed to hunting off my labs. So, with that in mind, Im trying to think of the grouse terrain I hunt, if my pointer is 200yds away on point, in some of that thick stuff, it might take me a half hour to get there. Im honestly trying to figure out how a rangey dog, in thick cover works, never having had the opportunity to do it?? IDK, maybe this is a completely ridicolous/stupid question, but Im struggling with it.

I usually try my best to discourage new owners whose experience is hunting over Labs and seem to have a hang up over range when inquiring about dogs. They don't get it and don't seem to want to get it. Even if they buy a pointing lab you will inevitably hear "My pointing Lab ranges too far. How do I stop it?" However there have been a few over the years that I have placed a pup with since they would not be dissuaded and only had the dog returned from one of them. Now if the fellow has owned and hunted over Goldens for years and has no experience with a pointing dog it is just a No, I don't have any pups for sale. They simply will not be able to make the philosophical shift.

There is no cover on gods green earth that will keep a healthy man from getting 200 yards in 1/2 hour.

Any dog worth his salt will go with you. That means that he will know where you are and where you are going. A dog that ranges 500 yards in the open fields simply will not be 200 yards away in extremely heavy cover. Their ability to go with you is relative to the conditions they are in.

[ezzy333]

I'm sorry, but breeding for a market segment is what got the world Labradoodles. Maybe breeders should just not sell to some people.

In other words, if people don't want and like the same thing you do we should not allow them to hunt with a dog. Sure makes sense to me right after you are crowned king.

Ezzy

[Birddogz]

Guys -

This is somewhat off topic, but there is a common misconception and it has surfaced here once again.

Just because a dog has the "ability", the genetic predisposition" or the "tendency"to do a certain thing, it does not follow that the dog "must ' do that certain thing.

As regards ground application, especially the concept of "range"...just because a dog has the "ability" to cover ground a half mile or more distant from its hunter/handler that does not mean the dog MUST hunt at a half mile or more.

There are plenty of dogs that do not have the ability, genetic predisposition or tendency(or whatever else you may wish to call it) to do that. So they do not...because they are not wired that way.

Now, is it easier to get a dog to hunt close, that is genetically predisposed to hunt close? Of course it is!! That, in and of itself, has very little to do with improving the breed, unless the breed is designed to hunt close, like flushing dogs. To deliberately breed a pointing breed for close working, is, in some ways...breeding down, not up, in my opinion.

To breed in that manner is to breed so that the marginally competent trainer can obtain a serviceable hunting dog with the minimum amout of training. That ain't the point, and it never should be...when one is talking about improving the breed.

The point(no pun intended) should be to breed for the dog that has the genetic ability to perform at the most demanding level and yet has the brains, the biddability, the trainability(or whatever else you wish to call it) to be able to be completely serviceable, even to excel, in other roles which may require the dog's athleticism and desire to be expressed or channeled in a different way.

There have been a fair number of individual dogs that have shown the ability to perform at the most demanding level and who have also shown the intelligence and trainability to be able to adapt to other demands. One recent addition to this list is Thunderbird Punch Buggy, a setter.

This dog has demonstrated its ability to excel at American Field Open All Age competition, American Field Horseback Shooting Dog competition and Cover dog(walking handler, typically in heavy wooded cover) competition. That shows a wealth of natural talent and ability...AND the intelligence to switch gears and become, in a very real sense...a different kind of dog because of the very different demands of the different trial types. THAT is the kind of dog that you can take hunting ANYWHERE and be pretty darn sure that you will have a good day afield.

THAT ladies and germs, is the kind of dog we should, as breeders, be aiming toward. That is the kind of dogs that competition, in its various forms, should seek to identify and reward. You CAN have it all. Dogs like Punch are living proof.

BTW, since I am a confirmed pointer person, you gotta know that I consider Punch(a setter) to be something very special...and I ain't ever seen him run.

RayG

I'm not trying to suck you in to any trap. I understand that dogs can be reeled in. I'm just saying that a high octane dog can be harder to keep in than a dog like a DD or EB. In my experience, every dog has a natural range that they like to hunt. Many guys I know hunt pheasant in the Dakotas a couple times a year, and Ruffs the rest of the time. These same guys often complain about their dogs wanting to range too far, yet they continue to buy high octane HB stuff. Again, I understand that many FT dogs can be close hunting foot dogs. I own 2 of them, but it was much harder to get them to hunt like I prefer when compared to the dogs that I have mentioned. High octane dogs remind me of a teenager on a crotch rocket. "Dad, I know my bike will run 180mph, and go 0-60 in 3.8 seconds, but I'll always go the speed limit." Well, we all know that is BS. The kid is going to have that bike at 130 within the 1st week he owns the bike. That is how dogs with HB FT genes are, they are going to test the limits far more than dogs that are bred for the foot hunter. Can you have it all? Yes, but it isn't as easy. I'm in to easy.

Also, EPs that are bred for trialing are not nearly as calm when hunting geese or ducks in a blind. Neither are my FT bred Britts. My DD will sit very calmly in a blind, and take signals.

Dogs that are FT bred like to run to the front. At times this is advantageous. In a cattail slough or CRP field, a dog that hunts thoroughly is at an advantage. That is just fact. I have hunted wild pheasants for far too long to think differently. I understand that not everyone hunts pheasants, but MANY do.

Lastly, I like to emulate the pros. I have numerous friends that guide wild bird hunts for a living. Granted, they guide Ruffs and pheasants. Wild quail and Chukar would be quite different, there a dog that hunts big is the advantage. My friends like dogs that hunt far closer, and they do it for a living. Now, if I trialed for a living, I would emulate those pros. If big running FT dogs breed big running FT dogs, then the opposite must be true.

[RayGubernat]

And there you have it folks. AGAIN.

As if everyone on this board did not already know just exactly why some folks prefer a certain type of dog that is not terribly suitable for field trials.

I don't know, maybe its just me, but most of the guides I know around here are out of work landscapers or construction workers who are guiding clients for pay when the grass isn't growing or when there were no houses to be framed. I never considered them as the same level professionals as the Tracys, Luke Eisenhart, Bruce Jacobs, Eldon Hongo or John Steger.

Funny thing is, I placed two dogs out of a litter I raised a couple years ago with local "professional guides". Once they saw what the dogs were capable of at ten months of age, they were both happy as pigs in slop to get dogs that I knew did not have what it took to succeed at local field trials. They were good bird dogs, but did not have the whole package.
One of my cast-offs is now the one guide's "go to" dog as I understand it.

Lastly, why in the world would anybody in their right mind want...much less expect... a pointer to sit in a duck blind? That is just dumb.

RayG

[dockgsp]

New guys,

Don't be imtimidated by the trialers that show up with big dualie rigs , pulling horse trailers with sleeping quarters or 40 foot motor homes pulling horse trailers.
I spent many a night sleeping in the back seat of the Hotel Dodge P/U.

Believe me the dogs don't know what all that stuff costs.
Do your training , work on your handling skills, watch as many braces as you can and you will do fine.

[baileydog2007]

This will be off topic, but I have a question when it comes to "range". I talked to a lot of EP breeders before I chose to get one. The guy I talked to (Brian I think) from Chokebore/Elhew Kennels, said I am the toughest kind of guy to get comfortable hunting behind a EP, cuz I have always hunted Labs and will have the tendency to want to have the EP hunt at a distance Ive grown accustomed to hunting off my labs. So, with that in mind, Im trying to think of the grouse terrain I hunt, if my pointer is 200yds away on point, in some of that thick stuff, it might take me a half hour to get there. Im honestly trying to figure out how a rangey dog, in thick cover works, never having had the opportunity to do it?? IDK, maybe this is a completely ridicolous/stupid question, but Im struggling with it.

I usually try my best to discourage new owners whose experience is hunting over Labs and seem to have a hang up over range when inquiring about dogs. They don't get it and don't seem to want to get it. Even if they buy a pointing lab you will inevitably hear "My pointing Lab ranges too far. How do I stop it?" However there have been a few over the years that I have placed a pup with since they would not be dissuaded and only had the dog returned from one of them. Now if the fellow has owned and hunted over Goldens for years and has no experience with a pointing dog it is just a No, I don't have any pups for sale. They simply will not be able to make the philosophical shift.

There is no cover on gods green earth that will keep a healthy man from getting 200 yards in 1/2 hour.

Any dog worth his salt will go with you. That means that he will know where you are and where you are going. A dog that ranges 500 yards in the open fields simply will not be 200 yards away in extremely heavy cover. Their ability to go with you is relative to the conditions they are in.

Thats real helpful. Thanks. :roll: . The haf hour was a bit of sarcasm. So when/if someone new wants to learn about pointers, you simply discourage them? Makes sense, why even respond to my question?

[Birddogz]

And there you have it folks. AGAIN.

As if everyone on this board did not already know just exactly why some folks prefer a certain type of dog that is not terribly suitable for field trials.

I don't know, maybe its just me, but most of the guides I know around here are out of work landscapers or construction workers who are guiding clients for pay when the grass isn't growing or when there were no houses to be framed. I never considered them as the same level professionals as the Tracys, Luke Eisenhart, Bruce Jacobs, Eldon Hongo or John Steger.

Funny thing is, I placed two dogs out of a litter I raised a couple years ago with local "professional guides". Once they saw what the dogs were capable of at ten months of age, they were both happy as pigs in slop to get dogs that I knew did not have what it took to succeed at local field trials. They were good bird dogs, but did not have the whole package.
One of my cast-offs is now the one guide's "go to" dog as I understand it.

Lastly, why in the world would anybody in their right mind want...much less expect... a pointer to sit in a duck blind? That is just dumb.

RayG

This is where we differ. My friends guide hunts on wild birds in wild places. Whether it be the plains of South Dakota, North Dakota, or Montana. Maybe it is the north woods of Wisconsin or Minnesota. You live in Delaware. A Mecca for wild bird work. You simply have never had the opportunity to hunt wild birds for seasons on end. You play a game that is supposed to imitate what they/I live every year. Birds that are born in captivity don't count. It is sad that a man of your age doesn't understand that. Have fun with inferior quarry. Wild birds define a TRUE bird dog. Maybe fake opponents satisfy you, but they don't me. Your attack on real hunters shows your incompetence.

[nikegundog]

Ray, I think Birddogz is pulling you into his trap.

[tommyboy72]

Yep it is just getting interesting with the quips and the delightful banter back and forth. Just about time to lock it I would guess.

[dockgsp]

Brenda I’ll go one better, I totally agree that it has become way too easy finish a GSP, but I believe it’s the fault of the AKC/GSPCA, we have some clubs in the northeast that have no business running a trail. The grounds they run on are extremely small and what’s worse the course is set up in such a way that it is impossible to get a national caliber dog around. Personally I believe that some of these trials should be closed. Four of the clubs run on grounds that are surrounded by fast roads, no fence, and for years did not allow tracking colliers. Along with that not a one of the dogs that run at these trials could ever compete at the nationals, it seems to me WHAT’S THE POINT.

A little harsh, don't you think?

[Cajun Casey]

Brenda I’ll go one better, I totally agree that it has become way too easy finish a GSP, but I believe it’s the fault of the AKC/GSPCA, we have some clubs in the northeast that have no business running a trail. The grounds they run on are extremely small and what’s worse the course is set up in such a way that it is impossible to get a national caliber dog around. Personally I believe that some of these trials should be closed. Four of the clubs run on grounds that are surrounded by fast roads, no fence, and for years did not allow tracking colliers. Along with that not a one of the dogs that run at these trials could ever compete at the nationals, it seems to me WHAT’S THE POINT.

A little harsh, don't you think?

I agree, especially considering it was written by an AKC judge.

[JKP]

Guys -
This is somewhat off topic, but there is a common misconception and it has surfaced here once again.
Just because a dog has the "ability", the genetic predisposition" or the "tendency"to do a certain thing, it does not follow that the dog "must ' do that certain thing.
As regards ground application, especially the concept of "range"...just because a dog has the "ability" to cover ground a half mile or more distant from its hunter/handler that does not mean the dog MUST hunt at a half mile or more.
There are plenty of dogs that do not have the ability, genetic predisposition or tendency(or whatever else you may wish to call it) to do that. So they do not...because they are not wired that way.
Now, is it easier to get a dog to hunt close, that is genetically predisposed to hunt close? Of course it is!! That, in and of itself, has very little to do with improving the breed, unless the breed is designed to hunt close, like flushing dogs. To deliberately breed a pointing breed for close working, is, in some ways...breeding down, not up, in my opinion.
To breed in that manner is to breed so that the marginally competent trainer can obtain a serviceable hunting dog with the minimum amout of training. That ain't the point, and it never should be...when one is talking about improving the breed.
The point(no pun intended) should be to breed for the dog that has the genetic ability to perform at the most demanding level and yet has the brains, the biddability, the trainability(or whatever else you wish to call it) to be able to be completely serviceable, even to excel, in other roles which may require the dog's athleticism and desire to be expressed or channeled in a different way.
There have been a fair number of individual dogs that have shown the ability to perform at the most demanding level and who have also shown the intelligence and trainability to be able to adapt to other demands. One recent addition to this list is Thunderbird Punch Buggy, a setter.
This dog has demonstrated its ability to excel at American Field Open All Age competition, American Field Horseback Shooting Dog competition and Cover dog(walking handler, typically in heavy wooded cover) competition. That shows a wealth of natural talent and ability...AND the intelligence to switch gears and become, in a very real sense...a different kind of dog because of the very different demands of the different trial types. THAT is the kind of dog that you can take hunting ANYWHERE and be pretty darn sure that you will have a good day afield.
THAT ladies and germs, is the kind of dog we should, as breeders, be aiming toward. That is the kind of dogs that competition, in its various forms, should seek to identify and reward. You CAN have it all. Dogs like Punch are living proof.
BTW, since I am a confirmed pointer person, you gotta know that I consider Punch(a setter) to be something very special...and I ain't ever seen him run.

This kind of reasoning is baffling....the discussion is about Bootlickers or horizon sweeping Perfection....is there nothing acceptable in between? The vast majority of birds (wild or otherwise) that are shot in this country are probably pointed by dogs no more than 150yds away...what makes a great dog for that vast majority of hunters is a dog that has the nose, work ethic, and manners on contact...and most important, that you can live with the other 320 days/yr.

Its gratifying to learn that the trialers are just as critical of the lesser dogs (venues) in their game...makes me feel better...I'm in good company

[slistoe]

One recent addition to this list is Thunderbird Punch Buggy, a setter.
This dog has demonstrated its ability to excel at American Field Open All Age competition, American Field Horseback Shooting Dog competition and Cover dog(walking handler, typically in heavy wooded cover) competition. That shows a wealth of natural talent and ability...AND the intelligence to switch gears and become, in a very real sense...a different kind of dog because of the very different demands of the different trial types. THAT is the kind of dog that you can take hunting ANYWHERE and be pretty darn sure that you will have a good day afield.
THAT ladies and germs, is the kind of dog we should, as breeders, be aiming toward. That is the kind of dogs that competition, in its various forms, should seek to identify and reward. You CAN have it all. Dogs like Punch are living proof.

This kind of reasoning is baffling....the discussion is about Bootlickers or horizon sweeping Perfection....is there nothing acceptable in between? The vast majority of birds (wild or otherwise) that are shot in this country are probably pointed by dogs no more than 150yds away...what makes a great dog for that vast majority of hunters is a dog that has the nose, work ethic, and manners on contact...and most important, that you can live with the other 320 days/yr.

Its gratifying to learn that the trialers are just as critical of the lesser dogs (venues) in their game...makes me feel better...I'm in good company

What part of this says there is nothing in between? The point being made is that good dogs are all that and everything in between.
What is incredibly irritating in your post is the implication that you cannot live with a horizon sweeper the other 320 days of the year. It is absolutely WRONG. (Unless you were implying that the bootlickers and 150 max yarders were impossible to live with).

[slistoe]

This will be off topic, but I have a question when it comes to "range". I talked to a lot of EP breeders before I chose to get one. The guy I talked to (Brian I think) from Chokebore/Elhew Kennels, said I am the toughest kind of guy to get comfortable hunting behind a EP, cuz I have always hunted Labs and will have the tendency to want to have the EP hunt at a distance Ive grown accustomed to hunting off my labs. So, with that in mind, Im trying to think of the grouse terrain I hunt, if my pointer is 200yds away on point, in some of that thick stuff, it might take me a half hour to get there. Im honestly trying to figure out how a rangey dog, in thick cover works, never having had the opportunity to do it?? IDK, maybe this is a completely ridicolous/stupid question, but Im struggling with it.

I usually try my best to discourage new owners whose experience is hunting over Labs and seem to have a hang up over range when inquiring about dogs. They don't get it and don't seem to want to get it. Even if they buy a pointing lab you will inevitably hear "My pointing Lab ranges too far. How do I stop it?" However there have been a few over the years that I have placed a pup with since they would not be dissuaded and only had the dog returned from one of them. Now if the fellow has owned and hunted over Goldens for years and has no experience with a pointing dog it is just a No, I don't have any pups for sale. They simply will not be able to make the philosophical shift.

There is no cover on gods green earth that will keep a healthy man from getting 200 yards in 1/2 hour.

Any dog worth his salt will go with you. That means that he will know where you are and where you are going. A dog that ranges 500 yards in the open fields simply will not be 200 yards away in extremely heavy cover. Their ability to go with you is relative to the conditions they are in.

Thats real helpful. Thanks. :roll: . The haf hour was a bit of sarcasm. So when/if someone new wants to learn about pointers, you simply discourage them? Makes sense, why even respond to my question?

You didn't believe it when Brian told you, and you don't want to hear it from me. As I said, not even a Pointing Lab breeder will breed a dog designed to soothe your angst over "range". Of course you can buy a dog that simply does not care if it hunts or not. It won't test your mettle by ranging too much.

[Birddogz]

Where do you live Slistoe? This will be funny.

[slistoe]

Where do you live Slistoe? This will be funny.

There is nothing at all funny about the arrogant, pompous attitude you exude. Go back to your Tarpon boat and quit fishing on here.

[ACooper]

You didn't believe it when Brian told you, and you don't want to hear it from me. As I said, not even a Pointing Lab breeder will breed a dog designed to soothe your angst over "range". Of course you can buy a dog that simply does not care if it hunts or not. It won't test your mettle by ranging too much.

Where do you live Slistoe? This will be funny.

There is nothing at all funny about the arrogant, pompous attitude you exude. Go back to your Tarpon boat and quit fishing on here.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[BigShooter]

Been off the Board for a while. With so much turmoil & change these days .... it's so nice to come back & see no one & nothing has changed much on the Forum!

[ACooper]

Been off the Board for a while. With so much turmoil & change these days .... it's so nice to come back & see no one & nothing has changed much on the Forum!

Yeah where you been? We could have used a voice of reason!!

[Wildweeds]

Horses for courses, if you hunt where the cover is thin and you can see the next zip code,get a big runner,if you can hit the next objective with the end of your guns range get one that works as such.Those that are truly talented in training an animal and have an animal that's intelligent can do BOTH.

[Cajun Casey]

@baileydog2007, I am one who does not play the "mine's bigger" game with range because I know is can be developed and ramped down if the pup is properly introduced to birds. There is mention in a topic in the training section about the technique of tossing birds for a pup. This instills in the pup's mind the idea that birds and people belong on the same frame. As the pup develops, you can use this foundation to keep them steady on far out finds or to tighten their range without hacking and beating them up with correction. I think you will be fine with your pointer pup as long as the pup always knows those are YOUR birds he is finding.