A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

[boonebrit]

Every lab my family owned when growing up was a pointing lab. We usually bought our dogs from a local breeder in Ohio, that brought dogs in from Canada...Accomplished trial lines. I'm in my mid thirties, so for this saying that Pl's are a new fad... Think again. Still in my hometown today, you will see dogs from those same lines... Smaller, leggy, pointing labs, that are some of the most determined retrievers you will ever see.

[clink83]

He's got a point. Both of Docs dogs are MH at least. If your job is to breed, putting at least a MH on your breeding stock is reasonable. Pointing dog FT guys seem to manage it plus training dogs on the side on a consistent basis.

[buckshot1]

The reason that most pointing labs don't have MH or field trial titles is because most pointing lab breeders are too busy running their dogs in APLA trials. Most people don't have time to run their dogs in two different venues. If you want to find some lab breeders to beat up on, you should focus your energy on the backyard breeders putting out 100 lb obese chocolate labs that have no hunting lineage or retrieving instinct. Those are the breeders who will one day ruin labs, such as they've done to other former hunting breeds like goldens and poodles. PL breeders at least breed for hunting instinct and fitness.

[clink83]

The reason that most pointing labs don't have MH or field trial titles is because most pointing lab breeders are too busy running their dogs in APLA trials. Most people don't have time to run their dogs in two different venues. If you want to find some lab breeders to beat up on, you should focus your energy on the backyard breeders putting out 100 lb obese chocolate labs that have no hunting lineage or retrieving instinct. Those are the breeders who will one day ruin labs, such as they've done to other former hunting breeds like goldens and poodles. PL breeders at least breed for hunting instinct and fitness.

So your saying they are running them in pointing trials and ignoring retriever trials/tests? Well chalk that up to a win for the "pointing labs not being bred to retrieve as well" argument. Yes, I read the apla format before saying that.

[LabGuy]

The reason that most pointing labs don't have MH or field trial titles is because most pointing lab breeders are too busy running their dogs in APLA trials. Most people don't have time to run their dogs in two different venues. If you want to find some lab breeders to beat up on, you should focus your energy on the backyard breeders putting out 100 lb obese chocolate labs that have no hunting lineage or retrieving instinct. Those are the breeders who will one day ruin labs, such as they've done to other former hunting breeds like goldens and poodles. PL breeders at least breed for hunting instinct and fitness.

So your saying they are running them in pointing trials and ignoring retriever trials/tests? Well chalk that up to a win for the "pointing labs not being bred to retrieve as well" argument. Yes, I read the apla format before saying that.

Obviously your not familiar with the APLA tests.... :roll:

APR Test Rules: "The test will have four working series: Upland Work, Land Retrieves, Water Retrieves, and a Blind Retrieve." <--Directly from the APLA website

Read it again because you obviously missed the boat. The exact same retrieving tests are performed in the APLA, AKC and UKC tests.

[clink83]

You're really arguing that the apla format for retrieving is equivilant to a MH test or a FT? That test is pretty similar to navdha tests, and I bet most navdha dogs could pass it, but I doubt many(navdah) could pass a MH test.

Its interesting that apla allows a dog to run over birds from upwind without fault, but doesn't require stop to flush.

[LabGuy]

You're really arguing that the apla format for retrieving is equivilant to a MH test or a FT? That test is pretty similar to navdha tests, and I bet most navdha dogs could pass it, but I doubt many could pass a MH test.

Its interesting that apla allows a dog to run over birds from upwind without fault, but doesn't require stop to flush.

For the RETRIEVING portions only, compare the MH test and the MPR/GMPR test. Both consist of marked land retrieves, marked water retrieves, blind land retrieves, blind water retrieves, and a diversion bird with all retrieves being delivered to hand. You saying that "PL's are not being bred to retrieve as well" is a joke since the same tests are being performed and they are completing them. Don't make the argument about singles vs. doubles vs. triples.

[nikegundog]

You're really arguing that the apla format for retrieving is equivilant to a MH test or a FT? That test is pretty similar to navdha tests, and I bet most navdha dogs could pass it, but I doubt many could pass a MH test.

Its interesting that apla allows a dog to run over birds from upwind without fault, but doesn't require stop to flush.

For the RETRIEVING portions only, compare the MH test and the MPR/GMPR test. Both consist of multiple marked land, multiple marked water, blind land retrieve, blind water retrieve, and a diversion bird with all retrieves being delivered to hand. You saying that "PL's are not being bred to retrieve as well" is a joke since the same tests are being performed and they are completing them.

Multiples as in a triple mark is a requirement in a GMPR test?

[clink83]

Are there any versatile dogs with a dual mh from the point and retriever tests?

[buckshot1]

The reason that most pointing labs don't have MH or field trial titles is because most pointing lab breeders are too busy running their dogs in APLA trials. Most people don't have time to run their dogs in two different venues. If you want to find some lab breeders to beat up on, you should focus your energy on the backyard breeders putting out 100 lb obese chocolate labs that have no hunting lineage or retrieving instinct. Those are the breeders who will one day ruin labs, such as they've done to other former hunting breeds like goldens and poodles. PL breeders at least breed for hunting instinct and fitness.

So your saying they are running them in pointing trials and ignoring retriever trials/tests? Well chalk that up to a win for the "pointing labs not being bred to retrieve as well" argument. Yes, I read the apla format before saying that.

I don't know why I'm responding because you're obviously looking to pick a fight rather than looking for answers, but here goes. Not running retriever trials/tests does not equal "not being bred to retrieve as well." All I'm saying is that most don't have the time or resources to run multiple venues, not that PLs don't retrieve well. Trialing/testing is very expensive and time consuming. Do you run your dog successfully in multiple venues while keeping a full time job and a family?

[clink83]

Well, if you make the argument that PL dog trainers train for retrieving then show a breeder with JH dogs, its a valid point. To then counter that the people are too busy running pointing dog trials that place less emphasis on retreiving than the MH tests or FT guys do makes no sense. I'm not making the bad debate points here. I was just sticking up for someone making a valid point. I personally don't really care one way or another. If I just wanted to fight, I would insult the guys dogs and say that most of them can pass a standard that isn't much harder than would be expected of a low level pointing test or derby.
This guy has dogs that have pretty impressive bloodlines, do you think his breeding program compares?
http://www.duckbust.com/

I'm not a breeder, so what titles my dog does or doesn't have is largely irrevelant. He only has to impress me.

[Doc E]

Noone here can answer that without a widespread genetic study. I doubt you would get an honest answer from most breeders either. However, if as Doc E says, only 10% of labs point that means you're excluding 90% of the gene pool to breed pointing labs. If you think that won't have a big effect on gentics, you're hugely mistaken. What those effects would be are unknown, but it's not likely to be good.

So you think that ONLY PLs are being bred to PLs ? Once again, you are hugely mistaken.



.

[nikegundog]

Noone here can answer that without a widespread genetic study. I doubt you would get an honest answer from most breeders either. However, if as Doc E says, only 10% of labs point that means you're excluding 90% of the gene pool to breed pointing labs. If you think that won't have a big effect on gentics, you're hugely mistaken. What those effects would be are unknown, but it's not likely to be good.

So you think that ONLY PLs are being bred to PLs ? Once again, you are hugely mistaken.



.

Doc, while looking through the websites it looks pretty typical, so if that's not the case post up nice kennels that disprove all the myths.

[clink83]

I want to point out that I'm not trying to badmouth labs, or peoples individual dogs or breeding programs. I have a problem with breeding for rare traits or specific traits not endorsed for a certain breed in general. I figured people would get that since I brought up other breeds, with specific examples. So, if you think I was badmouthing labs or whatever, that's not what I was going for.