Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

baileydog2007 · Post by **baileydog2007** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:11 pm

No, Im not Birddogs or know him.

I just pointed out that you call yourself competitive, but the venue you run in has subjective judging...

Cover dog trials on wild birds, with most finds as winner, I find respectable.

I dont care about tail, run, style or anything else if I hunt.
I want a dog that hunts with me, for me, covers ground well and finds game. If its efficient, that is desireable.[/quote]

I agree with your last 2 lines, but that doesnt/shouldnt diminish what Von or anyone else runs in or vice versa. Different strokes for different folks. I find "style" in my own dogs all the time. Is it what others would call style?? I donno, nor do I care. IF I was inclined to run in a competition where style matters, then Id care, only because I too, am competitive, and would want to win. So any competition with "subjective" judges isnt respectable or competitive??? I dont get youre post, at all.[/quote]

My disclaimer is I dont trial, actively. Once was enough. (And we outfound our Champion Setter bracemate)

Trials should do away with STYLE. GAME Finding IS Style and is the name of the game.

Emphasis on Finds, retrieves and backs. Thats it.
And the Winner goes to.....The Best and most efficient dog...
Now I like trials.[/quote]

I dont/have not trialed, but that sounds like sour grapes to me. Thats like a football coach crying because his team gained more yards than the other team, but still lost?? I dont know, the rules are what they are, with dogs, if you want to compete, train accordingly or dont compete. JM2C.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:17 pm

Heard that all before also the same question goes out to you does your dog always find birds & if not where do you think they all went'& do you think your dog finds every bird in the field?
I know mine don't & no one else does either & it's a good thing cause we might not have a bird left.Get off it man!You posted all this same stuff over at Fieldtrialer & they din't buy it either,sorry won't work here any better then it did there!!

You support NSTRA & that's good but did you realise that even there STYLE gets more points so if 2 dogs with the same amount of finds & retrieves the most style wins once again!!!!!!!!

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:18 pm

Ithaca,

Since you have absolutely ZERO understanding of trials it is impossible to have an educated conversation about why most finds don't always win. I will use your example of dogs trailing 4 wheelers to find birds, which you think is a negative in NSTRA. You don't think that smart FT dogs start to realize they find birds in the horse path? So when you have lazy bird planters that plant ALL the birds in the bird path, and only plant birds in the horse path because its easy, and you have dog one that has 4 finds all in the horse path, and dog 2 that had one find but that find was at a far reaching objective and showed the brains to hit that objective. You really mean to tell me you would award dog one that quartered the horse path the entire time versus dog two that hit objectives and showed independence and brains? For real? For real?

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:26 pm

I also wonder what the differences were genetically between the plantation and competition dogs may have...I think that it is why Joe was in the super bowl ..and i was...well I wasn't

baileydog2007 · Post by **baileydog2007** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:31 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Heard that all before also the same question goes out to you does your dog always find birds & if not where do you think they all went'& do you think your dog finds every bird in the field?
I know mine don't & no one else does either & it's a good thing cause we might not have a bird left.Get off it man!You posted all this same stuff over at Fieldtrialer & they din't buy it either,sorry won't work here any better then it did there!!

You support NSTRA & that's good but did you realise that even there STYLE gets more points so if 2 dogs with the same amount of finds & retrieves the most style wins once again!!!!!!!!

You need to quote who you are directing posts to. Tough to follow who you are calling out. Just a suggestion.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:32 pm

To Ithaca sorry I'm really a dunce when come to computers.

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:34 pm

Ithacaslayer wrote:
baileydog2007 wrote: I dont/have not trialed, but that sounds like sour grapes to me. Thats like a football coach crying because his team gained more yards than the other team, but still lost?? I dont know, the rules are what they are, with dogs, if you want to compete, train accordingly or dont compete. JM2C.

The Rules of this game, are NOT about finding the best Hunting dog, but the dog that LOOKS THE BEST while Hunting.

Thats the Disconnect that the Apologists here wont and dont accept or want to hear, or be called on.

Wrong on every way shape and form, you are just uneducated on how trials work, and most importantly refuse to become educated. You have beliefs you want to follow and no one will change your opinon.

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:37 pm

Ithacaslayer wrote:
Elkhunter wrote:Ithaca,

Since you have absolutely ZERO understanding of trials it is impossible to have an educated conversation about why most finds don't always win. I will use your example of dogs trailing 4 wheelers to find birds, which you think is a negative in NSTRA. You don't think that smart FT dogs start to realize they find birds in the horse path? So when you have lazy bird planters that plant ALL the birds in the bird path, and only plant birds in the horse path because its easy, and you have dog one that has 4 finds all in the horse path, and dog 2 that had one find but that find was at a far reaching objective and showed the brains to hit that objective. You really mean to tell me you would award dog one that quartered the horse path the entire time versus dog two that hit objectives and showed independence and brains? For real? For real?
Ive no interest in dogs getting trial wise and following Any paths, ATV or horse, AND Winning and rewarded for doing so.

I hunt. Period.

Far as NSTRA goes, my dog is a stub tailed Euro dog, compared to a long tailer, there is no style with a stub.

Manicured grounds barely ankle high, with smart dogs (like mine) following ATV Planters is not my idea of breeding hunting dogs, but to each his own.

Ran it once and outfound a 3x Champion Setter. But once was enough. I learned and experienced what I needed to.

Ithaca you just said what we are talking about!!!

Ive no interest in dogs getting trial wise and following Any paths, ATV or horse, AND Winning and rewarded for doing so.

Thats why FINDS are not the end all to a trial! I hope you understand now.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:38 pm

So Ithaca what is your skin in the game if I may ask? Do you believe that field trial dogs don't produce hunting dogs ? Have they or are they ruining a breed ? Do you think trialers have too much influence in sporting dogdom? You are very passionate you must have an agenda possibly a manifesto ?

baileydog2007 · Post by **baileydog2007** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:40 pm

Ithacaslayer wrote:
baileydog2007 wrote: I dont/have not trialed, but that sounds like sour grapes to me. Thats like a football coach crying because his team gained more yards than the other team, but still lost?? I dont know, the rules are what they are, with dogs, if you want to compete, train accordingly or dont compete. JM2C.

The Rules of this game, are NOT about finding the best Hunting dog, but the dog that LOOKS THE BEST while Hunting.

Thats the Disconnect that the Apologists here wont and dont accept or want to hear, or be called on.

I disagree. I dont have a dog in this fight. I dont trial. I have watched trials, and I hunt a ton. Trialers train thier dogs to win in the format they compete in. Duh. Hunters train thier dogs as they want them trained. Duh. One style wont suit all. But Id bet my last dollar, an elite FT dog, could be an elite hunting dog, and vice versa. If a specific venue doesnt suit you and your dog, big deal. Dont play that game. My guess, and this is just a guess, had you won the trial you were in, where you supposedly out found your bracemate, you'd still be trialing. Just a guess. I know, from first hand experience, dog sports are addicting. I wish I could do it. Id be there in a second. Would I win??? Not likely. But I wouldnt piss on the venue due to my inability to win, Id either adjust what I do to win, or find a game that I like more. JM2C, but it sounds like you are a sore loser. Could totally be wrong, but thats how you come off.

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:43 pm

They dont become path wise, they just start to learn that birds are planted in the horse path. These are plop down trials, almost impossible to mimic EXACT hunting conditions, that is why the overall performance is judged. Not just finds. And there are walking trials all over the place.

baileydog2007 · Post by **baileydog2007** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:50 pm

Chukar12 wrote:So Ithaca what is your skin in the game if I may ask? Do you believe that field trial dogs don't produce hunting dogs ? Have they or are they ruining a breed ? Do you think trialers have too much influence in sporting dogdom? You are very passionate you must have an agenda possibly a manifesto ?

I think you give trialers too much credit. This is the second post where you think you guys have too much influence in the dog world. While I disagree with the guy you are calling out, Id say its clear you also have an agenda. Speaking worldly, dogwise, we're all ants. Thats why arrogance is so frustrating to me. Those who get a jolt out of being the "big dog" in thier back yard, seldom handle it properly. Usually use it to thier advantage, as often as possible.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:51 pm

Ithaca if you read this thread you would see where I mentioned a dog with 5 finds in a 1/2 OLGD stake the most of the stake but never placed.Well that was my avatar dog Star.
She was deemed too big for the stake one again nothing to do with style or finds! I'm still trialing & enjoy it & the dogs & the people,pretty much everything about it.

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:52 pm

Ithacaslayer wrote:VonZepp...

Maybe you can comment on this study. Id like your take on it.

"A few years ago, studies done at the National Championships at the Ames plantation proved so embarassing that they have now buried them.

They found that the best big running trial dogs in the country found about 5% of available birds on a quail planation with remarkable bird populations.

Similar studies at the same time done at Tall Timbers plantation found that more Moderate paced hunting pointers found 25-35% of Available birds.'

Ooohhh!! Now we have the big trump of dissimilar studies. Who are you quoting? They certainly have an agenda. But they probably won't tell the truth about the two studies and neither will you - likely because you don't know anything about them other than this distorted quote. Try asking your "source" if the definition of "available birds" was the same for both studies.

Anyway, there is one thing you can take to the bank from these studies and it is that no dog will find all the birds in any particular piece of country. But anyone who has hunted much and looked at their dogs objectively would know that anyway - didn't need no study to find that out.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:00 pm

Bailey I will make one attempt to clarify. The last sentence in my original post asks why people argue points that don't effect them. You have been thoughtful and polite in that regard . Have others? My list is an example of reasons for others just me killing time fishing for answers if you misunderstand me just ask....I got nothing to hide

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:02 pm

Ithacaslayer wrote:
Im Not pissing at all, I explained what I would like, and what I dont like from what I understand of it.

That's the problem - you don't really understand any of it but you are certainly more than willing to piss on it.

Go back and reread about the Ames thing and then rethink why you would bother bringing it back up in the context you did. It is absolutely not relevant. You don't understand it, could not care to understand it, you simply want to flaunt it as proof of your misguided belief when it is actually proof of nothing in regards to your context.

And there would not be good enough odds to make me take a bet that any elite field trial dog wouldn't be able to develop into a top knotch hunting dog.

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:07 pm

Ithacaslayer wrote:
But they probably won't tell the truth about the two studies and neither will you - likely because you don't know anything about them other than this distorted quote. Try asking your "source" if the definition of "available birds" was the same for both studies.
It wouldnt be much of a test or study if it had different available birds, would it?

That is just it. They were two completely different studies and they had completely different parameters including the definition of "available birds".Wwhich makes comparison between the two in the context which you are presenting it an utter lie.

baileydog2007 · Post by **baileydog2007** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:39 pm

Chukar12 wrote:Bailey I will make one attempt to clarify. The last sentence in my original post asks why people argue points that don't effect them. You have been thoughtful and polite in that regard . Have others? My list is an example of reasons for others just me killing time fishing for answers if you misunderstand me just ask....I got nothing to hide

No, you have been nothing but polite and cool. A perfect debate. No way we all will agree, but being civil and honest is all good, even when we disagree. I dont claim to be FT saavy, not at all, just share the few experiences I have had. Thats all I have to base an opinion on.

What do I think about FTs??? I think I wish I could participate. I think if a dog can be trained to be a FT dog, it could be trained to be a great hunter, and vice versa. I firmly believe the venue we choose, is just our way of "bragging". heck, who doesnt love to brag our dogs up??? We all do, it is personal, we love that "bleep". But when it turns to "Im right/better and youre wrong/not as good, it strays from what is the real passion, the dogs. Id compete in everything from dock jumping to FTs to HTs to agility if I could, its all cool. I cant. I hunt absolutely as much as I can, and would love to find a test/trial format that both myself and my dog are able to comete in. Bottom line, to me, is a good dog, is a good dog. Period. The world would a much better place if it were run by kids and dogs.

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:40 pm

Ithaca, do you know why its hard to fight with a pig? You both end up muddy but the pig enjoys it. You have zero knowledge of FT's, we take your word that you "outfound" a 3x champion setter. But considering your knowledge about FT's I have a hard time believing you on your own "trial success".

Also Ames is not designed to find the best hunting dog, its designed to find the best AA dog in the country. If you even SLIGHTLY understood what a trial is or how they operate you would understand. Until then we will both get muddy, but you will enjoy it...

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:11 pm

Well good news is I have been wanting to hit Packsaddle but wasn't sure it was worth the drive, at least I know there will be plenty of birds there to hunt.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:21 pm

Ithaca if you beat a 3 times NSTRA champ give us your dogs name we can look it up on NSTRA website.

Your not talking to some young wet behind the ears kid I've owned GSPS for over 37 yrs been around a few dogs etc.Hunted most my life I own 9 now but only one has been trialed.
I don't know much but I know a wee little bit!!

Wenaha · Post by **Wenaha** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:34 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:AF Derbies & Broke dogs can place without a find & in rare cases can even win or place over a dog with finds.

I have been running in AF/AFTCA trials for some years. I have seen derbies placed without a find in smaller 'qualifying 'stakes'. I have NEVER seen a dog without at least one find placed in a broke dog stake. In an AF derby championship no dog without birds will be placed.

In AF/AFTCA there are no CH points. Every dog with CH in from of his name got it by winning a championship stake. No exceptions. I know people who have competed for years and never had a dog win a championship. It isn't so easy.

baileydog2007 · Post by **baileydog2007** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:46 pm

Wenaha wrote:
Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:AF Derbies & Broke dogs can place without a find & in rare cases can even win or place over a dog with finds.
I have been running in AF/AFTCA trials for some years. I have seen derbies placed without a find in smaller 'qualifying 'stakes'. I have NEVER seen a dog without at least one find placed in a broke dog stake. In an AF derby championship no dog without birds will be placed.

In AF/AFTCA there are no CH points. Every dog with CH in from of his name got it by winning a championship stake. No exceptions. I know people who have competed for years and never had a dog win a championship. It isn't so easy.

Thank you. Im not involved enough to post this with absolute certainty, though I believed it to be true. Nice post, thanks.

Wenaha · Post by **Wenaha** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:49 pm

Ithacaslayer wrote:
Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Ithaca Heard it all before doesn't change a thing!! more boo hooin!!No one made you watch or read or however you got the info.Don't participate set at the club & have a few more!!
Then play that game if you like but stay out of something you don't like or know anything about. I believe if 2 dogs in the cover dog game have the same amount of finds the most stylish will probably be named WINNER!!

I will make it simple for you and others.

And I speak for hunters everywhere.

Finds IS Stylish!!!!!!!
There is nothing to award if 2 dogs have equal finds.

Or NO Finds (No Winner) And that should be recorded in the registry and venue-NO Game found, winner awarded based on 'style'..

Sir, I have been hunting upland birds for more than 50 years. I have killed a couple box cars full of birds and owned, trained, hunted a lot of dogs. YOU DO NOT SPEAK FOR ME.

I bet I could train a pig to find birds and stand them... so what?

You are tiresome. When you get some experience, get back to us. Until then, you could learn a lot by spending time around trials, and around major league bird dogs.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:54 pm

Weneha I have never seen it either but have read it in the field before don't know if it still happens but it has happened in the past.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:59 pm

Ithaca I will look it up.I been to Fairborn a few times & herad of Rudds.In fact the dog I mentioned that won some trials with his tail betyween his legs,that where I saw him back in the early 90's.
Bill Drake was his owner.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:13 pm

My first question must have been too ambiguous. Let me try to be more specific using the dominant example. If you have never field trailed or you have and found it not to be your cup of tea, why do you take the time to argue that the format, or the dogs, or the people are flawed? Is there an objective that drives your willingness to argue your point? And again theses are not my thoughts only examples spawned by my supposition. Is it harming the breeds? Do you believe that it overshadows other venues? Why are you passionate enough to comment let alone the depth of some of the arguments.

For example, what if I strongly believe the best way to kill pheasants and recover them is to use a lab, and what if I arguedI that anyone who did it otherwise ... You know for something other than pure efficiency like...they like a dog on point...tail up down, hairy, bald, foot, up down, laying down whatever...its still all wrong because at the end of the day you got more birds with the flushing dogs...and I have 7 friends that know pointing dog guys that will admit it, and I hunted with a dd once and my lab schooled it...would my argument offend, would it make a lick of sense?

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:18 pm

Alina V Cripplecreek

Does not come up on the Nstra database.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:24 pm

Its not a registry , any dog thats run in a shoot to retrieve trial is listed with its stats and trial activity.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:31 pm

She didn't place or her name would be there & your a disgrace to live in this country!!
Rudds Running Doc not on record spelled wrong or you Full & well you know.
If he was a 3 time CH would be there for sure.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:38 pm

I ran in a trial that beeline bullet's oxidation (Rusty) ran in, scored higher than Rusty that day, know what that means? not doodly squat.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:39 pm

I will no longer aknowledge a man that is ASHAMED of living in this country.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:00 pm

the dog records go back decades.....

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:04 pm

NO RUDDS RUNNING DOC RUDDS RUNNING SPOT yes but not even a one time Champion went from 2005 thru 2006

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:08 pm

YOUR UN AMERICAN swim across I don't care not needed here.Im not an OKIE but those are fightin words & I've done it before & would do it again !!

Garrison · Post by **Garrison** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:12 pm

All this because a dog in Ireland has a big head!

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:18 pm

Garrison wrote:All this because a dog in Ireland has a big head!

Hey buddy, I think you're on the wrong thread. Get it right.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:23 pm

Ok MR Smart un American man I might ride the Short bus but you never even made it on can you read Angie's Dogwood Doc
I will match IQ's with you anyday & then add that German 15 %

Garrison · Post by **Garrison** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:23 pm

brad27 wrote:
Garrison wrote:All this because a dog in Ireland has a big head!
Hey buddy, I think you're on the wrong thread. Get it right.

Isn't this one of the five that started because a dog in Ireland has a big head, it gets confusing they all sound the same after a little while. I'm going to go read some dog food threads to clear my head.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:24 pm

outfinding a dog in one brace means nothing.....as i said my dog outfound and outscored a 6x ch one day last season....means nothing.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:25 pm

Can you guys hold up a minute...I need to run to the kitchen for more beer and pocorn

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:31 pm

JKP wrote:Can you guys hold up a minute...I need to run to the kitchen for more beer and pocorn

I think you're a little late on that one. This has been going on for awhile.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:34 pm

You may have beat him but you still never placed & he didn't either or your dog would show up.Proves you full of yourself & JKP & all the rest of you want to take up with him you should all rent a BOAT to Germany.
I'm proud to be an AMERICAN & I'm proud of the service men & women that give their lives to protect this country & I hope none of you have relatives in the service because they would be discraced & ashamed of you as I am.

Post by **jcbuttry8** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:03 pm

Ithica,

As much as I have enjoyed this arguement, and it is one for the records here on this site. I advise you to watch where you take this fight. You are treading real close to a line that many on here have either fought to defend or have family that have. Unless you yourself have served, you have neither the right or the privilege to make any remarks about the military men and women that freely give their time and in some case their lives. So, I kindly ask you to back your "bleep" up and stick to the dogs.

You should be proud of the dog you have. It obviously suits you just fine. The problem that you seem to be causing is you fall into a category of people who take their dogs to a trial with a one track mind. You have stated on here plenty so far that your dog out found a 3X champion. This has made you sour to a sport. The fact that your dog did out perform that dog in finds alone, or so you say, made you believe that your dog was up there. You sat around the rest of the braces with ribbons dancing in your head and grand thoughts of your no name dog being called on to step up for the blue. Then the trial ended and you went home empty handed. Therefore you will forever down play any venue due to the fact that your dog did not place.

Please don't say this isn't right. Go back and count the number of times you have said it. You remind me of the kid that was always picked last or not picked at all, and then just bi$%^ed about what a stupid game it was.

my 2,

Joe

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:12 pm

NO ONE & I MEAN NO ONE will ever say the words I want to live in another country to my face & walk away with out hitting the dirt first.I'm ashamed that no one else has the cahonies to tell this jerk the same thing.
If you want to ban me or delete this for being a man a saying it so be it!!

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:21 pm

Wenaha wrote:
Ithacaslayer wrote:
Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Ithaca Heard it all before doesn't change a thing!! more boo hooin!!No one made you watch or read or however you got the info.Don't participate set at the club & have a few more!!
Then play that game if you like but stay out of something you don't like or know anything about. I believe if 2 dogs in the cover dog game have the same amount of finds the most stylish will probably be named WINNER!!

I will make it simple for you and others.

And I speak for hunters everywhere.

Finds IS Stylish!!!!!!!
There is nothing to award if 2 dogs have equal finds.

Or NO Finds (No Winner) And that should be recorded in the registry and venue-NO Game found, winner awarded based on 'style'..
Sir, I have been hunting upland birds for more than 50 years. I have killed a couple box cars full of birds and owned, trained, hunted a lot of dogs. YOU DO NOT SPEAK FOR ME.

I bet I could train a pig to find birds and stand them... so what?

You are tiresome. When you get some experience, get back to us. Until then, you could learn a lot by spending time around trials, and around major league bird dogs.

Sorry but you don't speak for me or many of the other hunters on here either.

Ezzy

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:30 pm

I think this topic better get back on the original question. You have all stated your petty bickering ad nausem and then did it again. And the dogs are still the same, the rules are still the same, and no one has changed their minds though some of you have probably ruined your reputation a little.

All I am saying is this will not go on like this so you take care of it so I don't have too.

Thank you

Ezzy

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:32 pm

I want apologise to every one for letting him get to me but that's one thing I have a hard time controlling when anyone insults my country &the service men & women who protect it.

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:37 pm

Ithacaslayer wrote:
Elkhunter wrote: Also Ames is not designed to find the best hunting dog, its designed to find the best AA dog in the country.

Thank You...

Does not mean they are not great bird dogs, there is a guy in ID with a multiple times over AA pointer that kills hundreds of wild birds over that dog.

Wenaha · Post by **Wenaha** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:51 pm

Elkhunter wrote:
Ithacaslayer wrote:
Elkhunter wrote: Also Ames is not designed to find the best hunting dog, its designed to find the best AA dog in the country.

Thank You...
Does not mean they are not great bird dogs, there is a guy in ID with a multiple times over AA pointer that kills hundreds of wild birds over that dog.

I think you're talking about Rich Heaton?