shorthair differences

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:23 pm

HA!
Get real!
Are you (both) going to start in with the EGO bit and intimidation tactics?

You still can't prove versatilty and all the chest pounding in the world can't change that.

Don't hurt yourself,now.

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:27 pm

adogslife wrote:.
I am not re-defining versatility - I am defining it. It is the 2 of you who are re-defining it to suit your own purposes.

Really?

You still can't prove versatilty and all the chest pounding in the world can't change that.

While NAVHDA didn't invent the word "Versatile", nor the phrase, "Versatile Hunting Dog". The things we've just deomstrated seem to clearly fit EXACTLY how NAVHDA defines their purpose.

The North American Versatile Hunting Dog Association defines versatility as "the dog that is bred and trained to dependably hunt and point game, to retrieve on both land and water, and to track wounded game on both land and water."
~ NAVHDA Aims, Programs, Test Rules

Personally I feel that nothing defines, nor exemplifies a versatile dog the way actually getting the dogs out and proving it on wild game does. No one has ever made a convincing argument otherwise to me.

Ok I think we've side tracked this thread more than enough. If you want to start your own thread to define for all of us why your dogs are versatile and our's are not feel free. CR

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:39 pm

Prove versatilty by doing it.
Good point you make.
So how 'bout it?
Enter those great versatiles of yours in NAVHDA UT, go for the VC.
Stop with the pictures that prove nothing.
I still haven't heard from yawallac about my blood tracking challenge. Maybe you are up to it?

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:41 pm

adogslife,

Not ego or chest thumping. I've just been at this a while. Believe me, I know what a great Duck Search looks like. I have messed with more than a few NAVHDA dogs.

My point is only this: Keep an open mind. Try training a FT bred dog at some point. Form your own opinion from personal experience and not hearsay. I was in your shoes once!

Best of luck.

...and my Pointers are NOT going to do any blood tracking! You win that challenge!

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:49 pm

I was in your shoes once!

Again, you are very humorous!

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:52 pm

Prove versatilty by doing it.

The North American Versatile Hunting Dog Association defines versatility as "the dog that is bred and trained to dependably hunt and point game, to retrieve on both land and water, and to track wounded game on both land and water."
~ NAVHDA Aims, Programs, Test Rules

That's what I do for a LIVING on WILD GAME. I'm playing all the games I can afford now. I sure don't have to prove anything to some anonymous internet expert. CR

The Zephyr · Post by **The Zephyr** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:12 pm

(sniff, sniiff) I smell a troll!!!

wannabe · Post by **wannabe** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:20 pm

WildRose wrote:That's what I do for a LIVING on WILD GAME. I'm playing all the games I can afford now. I sure don't have to prove anything to some anonymous internet expert. CR

This reminds me of some of Charlie's post regarding field trials in the days before he put his dogs/training/handling in front of a judge other than himself.

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:28 pm

Really Wannabe? I'm still running and breeding the same lines of dogs, in many cases the exact same dogs, their son's and daughters too. I'm still doing very well with the hunting dogs and my trial record speaks for itself.

I still feel the same way too. Anyone trying to ram the idea down my throat or anyone else's that their venue is the "only true test" of a dog rubs me the wrong way. The ultimate test of a hunting dog is still hunting them on wild game.

I love trialing, I've had a lot of fun with it but while it has certainly made me a better trainer and handler, and given me an appreciation for seeing a more polished/finished performance, the best mannered dog or the best handled dog at any planted bird event pales in comparison to a great hunting dog. The two however are neither mutually exclusive, and the best dogs can excel at both. CR

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:32 pm

WildRose wrote:
As for the water photo. I can post a pic of my bitch leaping into the water like a high powered retriever - but she can't swim worth a darn.
All that NAVHDA, FCI, DK "super dog" stuff seems to fail then. Particularly when the All time NAVHDA producer is a trial bred GSP. Interesting. CR

As you well know we don't have navhda in NZ and I was commenting on photos not necessarily meaning a lot.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:36 pm

I am still referring to unseen water searches,w/o scent,w/o game being present, w/o loosing focus,w/o gun fire

I have no dog in this fight but I do think this quote is interesting. When I look for a hunting dog I always ask about these type of searches before buying. Sure want a dog that will hunt w/o game, w/o scent, w/o game being present,w/o loosing focus, and without gunfire. Those certainly are qualities I want in my dogs before we go hunting. I remember a dog once that lost focus and got kicked out of the versatile club and she never got over it. I finally just had to give her away to some poor person who loved to hunt pheasants. I guess she worked out OK as he kept her for a lot of years. Don't think the poor little thing ever got over her rejection though.

Since that time I have asked why I would want a dog with those qualities and I can't come up with a single reason.

I think you all need to get back to breeding good gun dogs and stop worrying about what kind of breeding they come from. If there is more than one kind we already are in trouble. GSP, Pointer, Brittany, all equal dogs with different physical makeups that hunt. Breed with that in mind and we can get away from the bantering about what is the better type of breeding.

Ezzy

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:39 pm

adogslife wrote:It's a old discussion.
If you all want to try and convince people that FT dogs or dogs not bred for versatilty can consistantly and reliably produce versatility then go ahead.
Maybe you will even get a few puppy sales.

You are onto it

And I notice that they often start the topics on, for instance, white GSP and run off FT dogs. Why I wonder?

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:43 pm

Margaret wrote:
adogslife wrote:It's a old discussion.
If you all want to try and convince people that FT dogs or dogs not bred for versatilty can consistantly and reliably produce versatility then go ahead.
Maybe you will even get a few puppy sales.
You are onto it And I notice that they often start the topics on, for instance, white GSP and run off FT dogs. Why I wonder?

Really Marg? Ok here's a quick and easy one. Who are the "They" you are referring to? I for one don't remember ever starting a topic on this board, and very few on any others. I usually just answer questions or respond when I see what I think is erroneous, bad, or harmful "information".

By the way Margaret. Being from NZ please tell us exactly what your experience is with US bred FT lines. Not what you read on a BBS somwhere but your own personal experience. How many have you owned or trained? CR

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:55 pm

I can't believe I am taking the bait.
I may be misrepresenting how my resposes came up. This is my perception and how I took the writings. so take it for what its worth.

First the NA stuff. I could put a Prize 1 on a toy poodle. Also a Pointer could do the Blood track. It is about exposure and consistancyof training. for But my GSP, VC, MH, NSTRA 1st, 2nd and two 3rds. failed. Dogs have good days and bad days.
Second, How can anyone say or implie a FT dog does not have what it takes for NAVHDA? The major part of "NAVHDA" dogs is the "Prey drive or Desire" If you have that you can train the rest. If you can't you are no trainer. The reason FT dogs are always to the front is the desire and competitiveness.

It amazes me how much a few breeders of "NAVHDA dogs" blow their horn and down play other venues. It is no wonder that NAVHDA dogs are looked down on in many other venues.

I am a NAVHDA member, I test participate etc. But know it does not take a "NAVHDA dog" to pass a NAVHDA to pass a test. I would never be so arrogant. I know of a little brittany out of a back yard mistake breeding no dogs I have heard of in the pedigree (not that I know to many). Prize 1 UT perfect score. She was as good as my NAVHDA bred VC.

Sorry for adding my 2 cents.

The Zephyr · Post by **The Zephyr** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:00 pm

Ruffshooter,

Thank you for clearing the air and raising the veil.

John L.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:26 pm

Charlie cool it. It gets tiring to always have to point out to you that every remark made on these boards is not directed at you. You are just one of the many posters on here even though you do post a lot more than some. But there are other posters who are just as smart, just as well informed, and also have just as good of opinions as you. Two things to always keep in mind, you are not always right, and you do not have to have the last word.

You have posted a lot of good information but many of us have.
You have bred some good dogs but many of us have.
You are well educated but many of us are.
You have judged some tests and trials but many of us have.

With all of this in mind, we all are posters on this board and all are of equal statis. If someone makes a remark that you think refers to you it does not require an answer questioning the posters qualification to make the post. We talk dogs and not people.

Ezzy

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:28 pm

The major part of navhda and any verstaile testing assn is for the retention of inherent ability enabling progeny to perform reasonably to very well in all the aspects required of the Versatile breeds regardless of what the dogs owner actually hunts. It's about retaining the inborn abilities through the NA tests and breeding tests. The UT tests are for the owners to show how well trained their dogs are.

I"ve participated in our tests and my GSP could well be described on a list as having a ton of drive, desire and independance but she won't swim in water for the love of it and is a self-hunter so she is spayed.

I could post here about her speed and pointing style and love of hunting and retrieving, but it means nothing because the excess of drive and independance means she does not perform well in certain parts of a test and makes her rather a pain to take hunting.
Yes, she would win at field trials - IF. IF and BUT I don't see much of here - just the dog WOULD if I did it.

I believe most hunters, those who own companion hunting dogs, would much more enjoy a calm, biddable dog that works with them then one pushing the limits of the hunters patience all the time. I understand younger folk can enjoy these dogs and get a kick out of them...but.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:51 pm

I believe most hunters, those who own companion hunting dogs, would much more enjoy a calm, biddable dog that works with them then one pushing the limits of the hunters patience all the time. I understand younger folk can enjoy these dogs and get a kick out of them...but.

Typical misconception.

This is a calm biddable companion house dog that is HB FT bred. He hunts hard, fast and furious and yet he handles for his trainer, my son.

pttrrff · Post by **pttrrff** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:22 pm

I have the type of dogs that I like. It is obvious that everyone here has the type of dogs that they like. So what is the major problem here, personally I don't care if anyone else likes mine or not. I am the one that feeds them, I am the one that they have to please.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:28 pm

ezzy,
myquote you found interesting:
is about focus. And about maintaining that focus when no game or scent is present.
You hunt wild birds?Do your dogs goof off after 2 hours of no finds?
What if you sent a dog into the water on a search and no scent was found?
Would the dog stop searching and goof off come back to you or go off on land to relieve itself?
You probably won't have an answer to that question because you have not tested your dog for this.One can guess, but it would be just a guess.One can not say that field automatically will transfer to water.
It is important to have the drive to find game and the focus.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:50 pm

One can not say that field automatically will transfer to water.

Yes, one can. We're talking about independence and that doesn't leave just because the dog's fur is wet. C'mon man. On this subject you really don't get it. Independent dogs are MUCH easier to train for the Duck Search.

Where I have to spend more time with independent dogs is on the obedience portions of the test, like the drag. The Duck Search has always been a piece of cake.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 7:34 pm

yalwallac,
yeah, in a perfect world!
Not all dogs like the water,not all dogs want to be in the water,not all dogs can swim.
Indepedance does not go hand in hand with swimming.
What about Margaret's dog - she is now spayed!
And the pictures posted earlier of the water dogs - that is water for puppies.
What happens when a dog is faced with obstacles in the water? We would all like to think that our dog will bust thru it like paper, but it's not really the case and you can not assume b/c a dog busts thru hedge rows and grouse cover that he will bust thru stuff in water.Most dog will turn away and start off in another direction.
You seem to be missing one crucial trait in water searches. It is not only about independence - it is also about nose.What seems great on land may start to look a bit different in water.Dogs start to have real trouble finding scent and keeping it on water and often loose interest after about 10 minutes or so.
I am puzzled by your remark about the drag.
The drag is so much more than obedience - it's about nose and drive to find game and cooperation to bring it back - to hand - it's the love of finding game that drives the dog.
At the drag you are not giving the dog a cast you are telling it to find the scent,even if it is foot scent, to the end and bing back what's there.
If a dog needs to be trained to do a drag, rather than exposure, then the dog does not have versatility bred into it. IMHO.
Teaching a drag thru obedience is bogus.

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 8:03 pm

The drag has less to do with nose than training of obedience. The whole purpose of the drag is for the dog to do its job when out of sight and bring the game back instead of going off hunting or jsut leaving it, burrying the bird, or eating the bird all of which I have seen. I have never seen a dog not follow the track, some get side tracked but most all get back on it. I have seen them do all the other things, and those are obedience and cooperation. As bad as most of the pen raised ducks and pheasants smell I could track those dragged birds with my nose. The puppy live pheasant track is more about nose.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 8:28 pm

The NAVHDA drag is a lot easier than the German system. In this system the drags are 300-500m,depending what test, and has 2 turns and in VGP drags are thru the forest with turns,not mowed fields.
The dog needs to stay focused.
Eating,burying game is all about pressure during training. This is directly related to the handler.
The area for most likely failing a test in the German system is the drag.
Any dog that looses focus on less than 600' of drag is not focused.
Is this the reason for training?Or is the retrieve?

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 8:54 pm

The Zephyr wrote:(sniff, sniiff) I smell a troll!!!

May I ask, is anyone with a differing opinion to certain folk here a troll?

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 8:56 pm

Yawn.

Peace out. :roll:

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:08 pm

Margaret wrote:
The Zephyr wrote:(sniff, sniiff) I smell a troll!!!

May I ask, is anyone with a differing opinion to certain folk here a troll?

From Wikkipedia.com

Troll (Internet)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Internet troll)
Jump to: navigation, search
"Do not feed the trolls" redirects here. For the Wikipedia essay, see Wikipedia:What is a troll?

A sign meaning 'do not feed the troll'.An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial and usually irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.

I believe this is what was being referred to. CR

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:56 pm

Sorry that does not answer my question. But maybe there's been a whole hatch of 'em

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:04 pm

SPEW ROSS! How long were you with Potomac Chapter? Starting when? C'mon ya ol' goat! This person obviously thinks you know nothing of NAVHDA or Versatility!

Pleasant Ridge · Post by **Pleasant Ridge** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:10 pm

Margaret wrote:
The Zephyr wrote:(sniff, sniiff) I smell a troll!!!

May I ask, is anyone with a differing opinion to certain folk here a tIroll?

As you can tell I don't post here much but I do enjoy the read... I have to ask, which dog is more than likely to point a troll, retrieve a troll, track a troll or complete a troll search a NAVHDA dog or a FT dog? By the way what part of the country do trolls live? I have had bird dogs all my life, little ones, big ones, long haired ones, short haired ones, ones with short tails, long tails, white ones, dark ones, and pok-a-dot ones and I have yet to ever see a "troll" dog...... Man, I must be missing something.......
Sorry just couldn't help myself!!!!!!!

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:18 am

AHGSP wrote:SPEW ROSS! How long were you with Potomac Chapter? Starting when? C'mon ya ol' goat! This person obviously thinks you know nothing of NAVHDA or Versatility!

Surely not the Ross of "NAVHDA is the zenith for the bootlicker crowd"
and "dogs of mediocre performance" ?

Gotcha

stonegripper · Post by **stonegripper** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:26 am

Charlie cool it. It gets tiring to always have to point out to you that every remark made on these boards is not directed at you. You are just one of the many posters on here even though you do post a lot more than some. But there are other posters who are just as smart, just as well informed, and also have just as good of opinions as you. Two things to always keep in mind, you are not always right, and you do not have to have the last word.

You have posted a lot of good information but many of us have.
You have bred some good dogs but many of us have.
You are well educated but many of us are.
You have judged some tests and trials but many of us have.

With all of this in mind, we all are posters on this board and all are of equal statis. If someone makes a remark that you think refers to you it does not require an answer questioning the posters qualification to make the post. We talk dogs and not people.

Best post I've seen in weeks...equal status gets easily forgotten.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:29 am

Cool it Margaret. Those type of posts add nothing to the board.

Ezzy

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:42 am

Are Margaret's quotes true?

TrueBlu Shorthairs · Post by **TrueBlu Shorthairs** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:25 am

I'm confused, why should Charlie cool it but Margaret should not? Margaret said the dog could win at trials, but she sees few in New Zealand, Charlie asked of her experience with US trial bred dogs, where is he out of line asking that question? Goes to knowledge of the subject. She didn't answer, my guess, she has no experience with US bred FT dogs at all, most likely has never attended a trial, or been on a horse in the US, but she has experience enough to discuss the topic? Didn't take it as about Charlie, but as a question to gain knowledge.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:39 am

Surely not the Ross of "NAVHDA is the zenith for the bootlicker crowd" and "dogs of mediocre performance" ?

I said that and it's true IMO.

But she took my comments out of context. I did NOT say that all NAVHDA dogs are bootlickers. However, there are a lot of them there and extremely close working dogs can still do very well in NAVHDA. It's really the only venue that a "bootlicker" can achieve success. Therefore, IMO, NAVHDA is the zenith for the bootlicker crowd. Plain and simple.

The second quote was also taken out of context. There are many ways of measuring performance and I believe most would agree that FT dogs are higher "performance" animals. I didn't say they were "better" and they certainly are not for everyone. Especially trainers with limited ability and understanding of dog behavior ...like Margaret!! Just kidding. Marg and I have a love hate relationship. She's a good egg!

You won't find anyone online that promotes NAVHDA more than I do. The organization can be very beneficial, especially to newbies. And that is the first place I direct folks that want to learn how to train their own dogs.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:58 am

Talking out of both side of your mouth.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:11 am

*Everyone*: CHILL OUT.

This thread is really not very productive anymore.

Greg J.

markj · Post by **markj** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:35 am

You hunt wild birds?Do your dogs goof off after 2 hours of no finds?

I havent gone 2 hours with no birds, I recommend you move to a location where there is game,

Iowa has a few birds, heck I hear em every day on my place.

2 hours? really? you in the bronx?

Why not hunt the dogs? They care not if they are navhda or ft, they are bred to hunt bottom line.

Now I gotta say dogs do not have egos.......

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:59 am

Now I gotta say dogs do not have egos.......

Apparently, you do!

The Bronx?

Time to go out and play, children.

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shorthair differences

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