Question for the Elhew guys/girls

[BoJack]

There's an old saying something like this-"for some who can't do they can teach others". I think it's the same with dogs.For some who can't perform they can produce others that can.

[Mike Clutter]

Ditto on the D grandson out of Walker. The Most natural all around dog I've ever had hands down. Point back and retrieve.

[MARKB]

Ditto on the granddaughter of Damascus, I too have two daughters of Walker(son of Damascus), their three years apart out of different females.
Can't say enough about them and I've shot a ton of birds over them. I know several people that have several of Walkers siblings and they ALL say the same thing!! IMO you sometimes get more of the grandparents charaterics then you do of the parents, if you have the right grandparents ....

[birdogg42]

Who owns pinehill walking tall???

[Mike Clutter]

J.D. Irvine at nitro kennels.
http://www.nitrokennels.com/src/index.p ... &Itemid=34

He's got a few pups out of walker right now. I wish I wasn't so busy, I'd have one.

[BoJack]

Agreed,I think genetics can,and sometimes does skip a generation,where you'll get more of the grand parents then the parents.

[Bill Holtan]

Not for anything but Elhew Strike got at least a bit of what made him from a dog called Hook's Bounty Hunter. I think...so did Damascus.

Bounty Hunter was a powerful, huge running dog out of all age breeding that was very difficult to get around and he didn't place much. He did however throw a lot of "juice" into his pups. I am quite sure that is why Mr. Whele outcrossed to him, in the same way and for the same reasons he outcrossed to studs like Guard Rail, Dunn's Fearless Bud and others. For the "juice". Other ponter breeders did likewise.

I think Vagas is quite right about the reason Mr. Whele badmouthed Damascus. It was about the money. If you read his book Snakefoot, he goes into it several times about how he bred different studs that didn't work out to hsi satsifaction and how he bred them out of his line. The funny thing is, when I looked at Snakefoot's pedigree...each and every one of those "failed" outcrosses was in there. I found that quite amusing and informative.

Mr.Whele was either lying through his teeth about breeeding out the influence of those"failed" outcrosses or he was saying do as I say not as I do because I'm so much better at breeding than you are. Both sound like BS to me and when Mr. Whele was involved, it was VERY EXPENSIVE BS.

I am not a big fan of Elhew breeding in general. Never have been. But I do like what Hook's Bounty Hunter puts into dogs and went and got some of that myself via the Gunsmoke route.

RayG

Ray, Hook's Bounty Hunter surely added much to the line thru Strike, but be assured that he was hard to get around not because he was out of All Age breeding but because he was a deer chaser and he passed that on along with alot of other qualities. I know you run shooting dogs and I would say that the top shooting dogs in history have been of Elhew Breeding thanks to Mr. Wehle's BS, as you see it. I find it odd that anyone could question his methods when the results have been so overwhelmingly successful.

Bill

[Yawallac]

...and he passed that on along with alot of other qualities.

...like fighting?? I've heard that.

I like Elhew Phantom blood regardless of the negatives that I've heard out of Bounty Hunter. Phantom was out of McGoo and Blaze, a Bounty Hunter daughter, so he was doubled up on that cross. I'd like to take Sarah back to her Phantom blood at some point. Phantom shows up in a lot of pedigrees where you woudn't expect it (like Shadow's Attitude). Kind of a sleeper.

[RayGubernat]

Bill -

My objections to Mr. Whele's efforts have to do, mostly whith the exorbitant pricetag he asked for(and of course got) for his pups and the fact that you did not get to pick your pup...they would do it for you because they knew what you needed better than you did... at leat that was the sales pitch.

I found the first part, the pricetag, to be offensive because I could almost always buy a good quality hunting dog for less than the price he charged for a pup. Maybe it was also because I couldn't afford that much for a pup. I found the second part offensive because, whether they knew better than me or not...I reserve the right to pick my own hunting partner if I so choose. I still do. For puppy prices that were, on average four to five times what the puppy prices were for other, well bred pointer pups, I think it would have been nice to have ben able to pick your own, but Elhew Kennels did not do it that way. So, I never bought a pup from Elhew kennels.

He was a master marketeer and promoter. No question about that. He was very dedicated and very successful in the development of his line. no question about that. He bred a very fine line of gentleman's shooting dogs. No question about that. His line of dogs had a deep level of both phenotypical and obviously the best of his brood bitches also had genotypical consistency, making them an excellent platform from which to crossbreed with the intention of maintaining what you had and adding something here or there.

Credit where credit is due is only fair I think and there is no question that pointers are better as a breed, in some ways, because of his efforts.

RayG

[live4point]

I have always been a setter man,how do Elhew dogs compare with Miller dogs? Not talking field trial wins,but for a good gun dog?

[BoJack]

I think the Miller lines are more All Age type dogs mostly compared to the Shooting Dog type Elhews,but I'm sure there's exceptions to the rule.Miller dogs have won the National I think 5-6 times.But I have heard more then once that the Elhew and Miller lines crossed together is a very good cross,even in the grouse woods.I think the grouse dog trainer Bruce Minard has a couple of dogs out of that cross that he's done very well with.One trainer I've talked to said the Miller lines give the Elhew lines some Punch.Have also heard that the cross also produces some good gun dogs.Seems in the last few years there's been more then one good cross using the Elhew lines.Maybe some are looking deeper into what Wehle did and accomplished with his out crosses.

[up-hunter]

BoJack you are right about bruce minards dogs, if you look at hifive's Wrangler one of the top if not top coverdog running right now the sire was a miller bred dog and the dam was elhew bred. That seems to be a pretty common thing in the pointer world alot of guys are breeding elhew female to AA type studs to get the run they want, yawallac is one of them.

Bye the way here is the pedigree for wrangler

http://www.hifivekennels.com/ch_hifives ... digree.htm

[up-hunter]

Also if you look at wrangler damascus is her grand sire

[RayGubernat]

DISCLAIMER!!

What follows are generalizations based on my perceptions and observations of the bulk of the dogs i have seen from both Elhew breeding and Miller breeding. There are and always will be exceptions to these and other generalizations.

If I were looking for a dog to hunt primarily widl birds in open and rolling country I would lean toward Miller breeding rather than Elhew.

If I were looking for a dog for a dog to hunt in the woods or on mixed cover in tighter grounds, such as preserves, i would lean toward Elhew breeding rather than Miller.

If ground race' endurance and indepencence were important to me, I would lean towrd Miller rather than Elhew.

If a dog with a lot of snap crackle and pop on the ground as well as responsiveness and biddability, I would lean more towards Elhew than Miller.

If pointing style and bird sense were important to me, either line would be outstanding.

RayG

[live4point]

Thank's for input guys.

[BoJack]

Up,
Yep,the big D,there he is again.

[Bill Holtan]

Well Ray I can understand that. Bob was a master at many things and marketing and promotion was surely one of them. Of course he is not the only breeder that picks your pup for you, but I understand the desire to pick your own pup.

My problem with your post was when you stated that you have never been a "fan of Elhew Breeding in general" but really it sounds like you are not a fan of Bob Wehle specifically. But I can tell you I am thankful that Bob did what he did, because it has given me the opporunity to see some absolutely fantastic bird dogs.

Thanks
Bill

[RayGubernat]

Bill -

I do stand by my statement because i made it with this in mind...

I have always favored a pup with all the boldness and independence that I can find. My personal choices in gundogs have leaned toward all age breeding, even well before I got involved in trials. One of my earlier bird dogs was Warhoop Jake bred, both on top and bottom and Jake was grandsire on top and great grandsire on bottom(grandsire was Warhoop Jake II). Another was bred Bonafide on top(grandsire) and Saldin's Ghost(Grandsire) out of Saladin n the bottom(Now THAT was a "down to the toenails" tough dog. He didn't give a F*** for nothing except my baby son and birds...and not necessarily in that order. I wan't even on his list most of the time. He took everything I could throw at him and took it absolutely in stride). I respected that dog..let me tell you. Didn't like him...but respected him. Another was Montana Mike(sire) out of a Guard Rail sired dam. Anothere was out of Redemption's Reward and Guard Rail on top and Blackwater and Gunsmokes Fat boy on the bottom.

Even when I was only bird hunting, I wanted dogs that were more than capable and willing to give me the 'ol fazoole, if I didn't hold up my end of the deal(and sometimes even whenI I did ).

I was never the best trainer(still ain't) and I need all the help I can get from the breeder.

Elhew breeding never did have enough 'juice " for me and in years past, they were waaaay too soft for my Neanderthal methods. Hopefully I have gotten a bit better with that over the last ten to fifteen years.

I suspect if I would have been fortunate enough to get my hands on some of Whele's best, I might well have been very happy, but we both know that was never going to happen. "bleep" Shear, Dr. Calcagni and other established trialers, willing and able to spend the big bucks to train and campaign them... got those dogs.

There was about as much chance of me getting a top dog out of Elhew kennels as there is of me getting a top pick pup out of a dog like Sunflower, Swami or Hannabell. Or Erin's Tin Soldier, Strut and a bunch of others for that matter. Even if I had the opportunity, even today... which I would not...I probably couldn't justify the expense.

I'm not upset or angry about that, by the way. I don't even have a problem with it. Those quality of dogs deserve a better chance that I would be able to give them and any smart breeder will do what they can to put their best prospects with owners who have the ability and willingness to take them as far as they can go. As a weekend amateur, I really cannot.

That is just the way things are and we have to learn to deal with reality as we find it.

RayG

[BoJack]

Ray,
That's why those 500.00 Damascus pups were a Bargain all the years they were sold.They may not have fit your criteria for your type of dog maybe,but they sure did many others.I don't think anyone will ever duplicate what Wehle did and contibuted to the Pointer world.Maybe some cappable if they had the time and $$$$ he had,but it also seemed to be Focused Passion with him.

[MARKB]

BoJack, I still have some of Christmas issues of American Field and there was a lot of litters where a Damascus pup was $300 a piece or $500 for a pair of pups, and we'd love to have some of that blood so "close up" today.

It's too bad Ray had to spend so much time training and breaking his hard headed pointers, I've owned several different breeds of dogs, some of them were directly out of National Champions, Hall of Fame dogs . Until I bought my first Elhew bred pointer I too spent a lot of time training, I can honestly say the Elhew bred pup was the easiest dog I've ever trained.
I think I put her on pigeons a half dozen times and then just hunted the crap out of her and to this day I've never shot as many birds over a dog as I have her.
I have people ask me if I, or whom trained her and I tell them no one did , she did it herself !!!!!

But Ray did say he had a dog with Guardrail blood in him, I'm sure he knows how Guardrail was bred. Even if Bob was a little different, I'm glad he bred his dogs the way he did and I would agree the outcrosses proved to be some of his best breedings.

I'm also glad Bob campained his dogs, I'm also glad there are still people out there doing the same thing on a smaller scale.
But at the same time I was aware of what Damascus could also pass along to his pups even though he never was campained. I also did my homework and knew I wanted Dunn's Fearless Bud in her pedigree, she has that through Deep Creek Kate.

There's a perfect dog out there for everyone, I know a guy who had 9 dogs all out of the same Sire (Pinehill Walking Tall) I asked him why in the world would he do that, "he said why wouldn't I , it's like a guy who only buys Chevy's, when you find what works the best for him why go anywhere else" !!!

[birddog44]

Damascus produced a lot better than he was. He was run in NSTRA and didnt have the nose. Got too close on the birds.

Wehle was a marketing genius and knew and understood genetics. Horses, dogs, pigeons. He enjoyed it all. All together, he formed his legacy.

I am glad there are folks still today breeding true Elhews. Autumn Memory, Hampshire, Singleshot Kennels, and a few others are keeping it alive. Too bad, Elhew Kennels himself under Mr Hays is not doing anything to justify the history and legacy.

Just my input.

[Yawallac]

Speaking of Elhew and Guard Rail.......

Took my Elhew female to Atlanta today for a Rail Dancer straw. Hee Haw!!

Gene rode with me and I asked him a thousand questions about Guard Rail and Rail Dancer.

Any questions??

He probably wishes he hadn't offered to make the trip!!

[up-hunter]

congrats yawallac i bet your excited about that breeding.

How was rail dancer as a producer in whole, was he anything near what is father was?

[Yawallac]

His production numbers are even GREATER than his Hall of Fame sire...

[Dave Quindt]

His production numbers are even GREATER than his Hall of Fame sire...

Out of how many litters? Out of how many total pups whelped? And most importantly, out of how many pups trialed?

Without that data, especially the last number, you can't fairly compare production records.

[BoJack]

I'm sure when Wehle bequethed it all to his nephew Hays he thought he would take things on,but it sure didn't happen that way.I've heard from a couple of people that he's more interested in guiding then breeding.But who knows.I'm sure if Wehle was here today he'd be disappointed.

[up-hunter]

How old was guardrail when he was killed in the car accident?

Sorry i'm not trying to hijack the thread

[BoJack]

I think Guardrail was 5 when he was killed,not sure though.yawallac will be able to answer that through Gene.

[BoJack]

D Quint,
I'm sure yawallac's statement about Rail Dancer's production came from information from Gene,and who would better know,he owned Guardrail and Rail Dancer.Gene Cassale is a Bird Dog Hall Of Famer,the same as his Guardrail and Rail Dancer.Gene's getting up there in age but I'm sure in time Ross will get the numbers.And it would be numbers of winners produced and how many total wins among them.

[Big Dave]

Rail Dancer is not in the Field Trial Hall of Fame.

[BoJack]

My mistake,sure thought he was.It's Gene and Guardrail then.

[Yawallac]

How old was guardrail when he was killed in the car accident?

He was 9 according to Gene. (I had thought he was younger as well.)

Dave,

I agree. I don't know the numbers in terms of breedings other than Gene said he collected about the same number of straws from each. Rail Dancer died when he was 12 and Guard Rail died when he was 9. My statement was based upon what Gene told me as well as his FDSB numbers. Interestingly, Gene told me that Rail Dancer has produced double digit Champions from frozen semen and has produced 24 "multiple time Champions". He has 3 Guard Rail straws left and 8 Rail Dancer straws.

I believe that Guard Rail won 6 Championships and I believe 2 were All Age Championships. Rail Dancer won 3 RU Championships and I believe they were All Age Championships. Rail Dancer was run almost exclusively as an All Age.

George Tracy (Open) and Gene (Am.) handled Guard Rail and Gene handled Rail Dancer. Guard Rail became more difficult for George to handle "Jack was finished with George...." toward the end and if he didn't find birds quickly he would "just roll out of the country....". Gene said that at the end, George would hack and hack to try to keep him close for as long as he could and hopefully get him into birds, otherwise.... Gene continued to handle Jack in Am. Championships after he was retired from the circuit and he said that he never lost Jack in a trial.

....sorry, I don't mean to hijack the thread.

[BoJack]

Ross,
While looking at Erin's Tin Soldier's ped, one of Sean Derrig's top dogs.He is heavy bred Rail Dancer on the bottom.

[Yawallac]

Yep, he's doubled up with Rail Dancer on his bottom side. Very nice. (I can't wait for these pups!!)

[BoJack]

My new Elhew Damascus grandson at 2 1/2 weeks.Out of Pinehill's Walking Tall. Walker's last litter.
"Doc"

[Yawallac]

What a fat little toad he is!!

Congrats!!

[BoJack]

Yaw Wrote

What a fat little toad he is!!

He's not fat,he's just swelled up with Potential,ha ha.