Pointing dog advise

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Gordon Guy,
I like the way you think, got a couple Gordons myself, every Grouse Hunter should own at least a couple.
RGD/Dave

[Birddogz]

This is Minnesota not Antarctica. An EP will be fine in MN. I live and hunt in MN with a shorthair that has a coat that is more EP-like than GSP-like. She does fine and I will quit in cold weather before she does. Dogs generate body heat by running and hunting and that'll keep any dog plenty warm. Hunting season in MN starts in mid Sept and runs through Dec. The vast majority of the hunting season occurs when the temps are much warmer and many times late Dec is "warm" too. I'd optimize my choice for Sept, Oct, Nov and early Dec. A heavy coat is only optimal for late Dec IMHO.

Get yourself an EP. You've stated you like them. There are a couple of grouse dog trialers (probably more) in MN that would have the exact type of EP you are looking for. I'd start researching down that path first. Look up Jerry Kolter at Northwoods birddogs in Northern MN. He breeds grouse dogs and will have a better opinion than anyone on the matter.

Show me when it was warm this year in ND and Northern MN from Nov25th to January 3rd. Also, there was 40 inches of snow almost all winter. Dogs get VERY cold when their bodies are surrounded by snow, it is windy, and is below zero regular temperature. I agree that most of the season would be fine, but to say it doesn't get cold enough to matter is just plain wrong. I hunted with a guy in late season that had pointers actually start to fall down while running because they were experiencing hypothermia. They had the heart of a lion, but hypothermia is science. No escaping it. Also, if you are hunting near sloughs in the Dakotas, which many people do, your dog is going to fall through and break ice. There is no way around it. That is what happened to those pointers. A bird was shot and they went to retrieve. They were wet, it was cold and windy, and they were not doing well. A good coat would be most helpful in that situation. Now, in the heat the opposite is true.

[Gordon Guy]

Gordon Guy,
I like the way you think, got a couple Gordons myself, every Grouse Hunter should own at least a couple.
RGD/Dave

Amen!

I lived in ND for 15 years, a majority of hunting does occur when temps are above freezing (Generally before 01 Nov) however late season hunting (Often below zero) takes its toll on hunting breeds with short coats. There were times my Gordons wanted more time in the field while at the same time my buddies shorthairs had had enough and quit. Cold tolerance is a factor if you're not content to sit on the couch and watch football.

[Birddogz]

I love the couch and football! Just need to shoot your limit before 11:00. ND winters are no joke. As we speak, our 6th blizzard appears to be on the way.

[baileydog2007]

Well, Im certainly glad I found this site. I got a lot of PMs and I really appreciate it alot. But I might be more confused now that at the begining,lol. I think its between an EP and a Gordon. Man, those Gordons are georgeous dogs.....have to do some research I guess. Thanks all. Didnt mean to create a battle of the breeds or anything. I probably wont ask what kind of food I should feed. Kidding, I feed the best so no need to ask....

[Cajun Casey]

I think you should give yourself a chance to be objective. Get one of each.

[Grouse Dog Guy]

I don't care how cold it is in ND a Gordon is a better choice for a grouse dog than one of those possum killers. :roll:

[baileydog2007]

I think you should give yourself a chance to be objective. Get one of each.

If not for the money end of it, I likely would. Dogs absolutely make hunting fun. They make everything better. I would have as many as manageable if the work/money thing wasnt such a pain in the "bleep"!

[Winchey]

This is Minnesota not Antarctica. An EP will be fine in MN. I live and hunt in MN with a shorthair that has a coat that is more EP-like than GSP-like. She does fine and I will quit in cold weather before she does. Dogs generate body heat by running and hunting and that'll keep any dog plenty warm. Hunting season in MN starts in mid Sept and runs through Dec. The vast majority of the hunting season occurs when the temps are much warmer and many times late Dec is "warm" too. I'd optimize my choice for Sept, Oct, Nov and early Dec. A heavy coat is only optimal for late Dec IMHO.

Get yourself an EP. You've stated you like them. There are a couple of grouse dog trialers (probably more) in MN that would have the exact type of EP you are looking for. I'd start researching down that path first. Look up Jerry Kolter at Northwoods birddogs in Northern MN. He breeds grouse dogs and will have a better opinion than anyone on the matter.

Show me when it was warm this year in ND and Northern MN from Nov25th to January 3rd. Also, there was 40 inches of snow almost all winter. Dogs get VERY cold when their bodies are surrounded by snow, it is windy, and is below zero regular temperature. I agree that most of the season would be fine, but to say it doesn't get cold enough to matter is just plain wrong. I hunted with a guy in late season that had pointers actually start to fall down while running because they were experiencing hypothermia. They had the heart of a lion, but hypothermia is science. No escaping it. Also, if you are hunting near sloughs in the Dakotas, which many people do, your dog is going to fall through and break ice. There is no way around it. That is what happened to those pointers. A bird was shot and they went to retrieve. They were wet, it was cold and windy, and they were not doing well. A good coat would be most helpful in that situation. Now, in the heat the opposite is true.

Give me a break. How are you going to break ice if it is as cold as you say? Must be some wicked currents in those sloughs. It gets plenty cold here, not quite as cold as ND but I have run dogs approaching negative 30F and dehydration and frostbite are concerns. Hypothermia for a hardworking dog in the field running is ridiculous.

[baileydog2007]

Seriously guys??? We all know long hair keeps a dog warmer in the cold and short hair is cooler in the heat. Im new here, I know I have no reason to expect a thread to stay on task, but cant this be handled by PMs??? This is a cool forum, a lot of very good dog guys. I sorta know what I wanted, was looking for others advise, and thankfully got a lot of good feedback. But really, argue over coat/weather?? IDK, just seems crazy. I owned Labs my whole life, one was amazing IMO, I realize Labs are put together the way they are for a reason. For me, if its too cold for the dog, reguardless of breed, its too cold for me. If its too hot for the dog, reguardless of breed, its too hot for me. Anywho, you all are very helpful here, but as a new guy, sorta bummed the thread turned into a personal battle for no apparent reason.

[Winchey]

Sorry. Just have a differing opinion then Birdogz. When my dogs are running no matter how cold it is out, they get hot and thirsty, and if there is open water to be found they will lay in it. I wish they had lighter coats when I run them but they also hunt ducks which is a different ball game. I just got sick of Birdogz preaching that you shouldn't get a pointer because it may fall through Ice that is somehow soft enough to fall through when it is a million below zero and then your dog will freeze to death. For what it's worth I don't even like pointers, I don't have any good reason for not liking them but I don't think falling through a half frozen slough is reason enough to persuade someone not to get one.

[Chukar12]

know I have no reason to expect a thread to stay on task, but cant this be handled by PMs???

How dare you? What is the entertainment value in that? I want you to think of these threads and your personal needs in the political sense. You see Bailey, you have a need, so you ask a question and some well meaning folks give you an answer BUT at the same time others need to be entertained. So a well intentioned thread like yours becomes dilluted to satisfy the dirty, creepy, voyeuristic, can't look away from the accident, reality tv spectacle the rest of us are hoping for. As you well know this bargain is the way a bill gets through congress.

Now, Birddogz which color pointing lab would it take to win a wild grouse cover dog trial in Potter County, Pa.?

[gspguy]

Show me when it was warm this year in ND and Northern MN from Nov25th to January 3rd. Also, there was 40 inches of snow almost all winter. Dogs get VERY cold when their bodies are surrounded by snow, it is windy, and is below zero regular temperature. I agree that most of the season would be fine, but to say it doesn't get cold enough to matter is just plain wrong. I hunted with a guy in late season that had pointers actually start to fall down while running because they were experiencing hypothermia. They had the heart of a lion, but hypothermia is science. No escaping it. Also, if you are hunting near sloughs in the Dakotas, which many people do, your dog is going to fall through and break ice. There is no way around it. That is what happened to those pointers. A bird was shot and they went to retrieve. They were wet, it was cold and windy, and they were not doing well. A good coat would be most helpful in that situation. Now, in the heat the opposite is true.

Here are a couple links from the weather underground for the daily temps for Baudette, MN in Nov and Dec 2010. It doesn't look like it was as frigid in N. MN as you would have everyone believe. I was in Baudette last week ice fishing and there is plenty of snow up there but not 40" either.
http://www.wunderground.com/history/air ... l#calendar
http://www.wunderground.com/history/air ... l#calendar

I'm pretty sure an EP or GSP or Weim or Viz could hunt the majority of Nov/Dec days effectively if they are kept well fed & hydrated during the day and they aren't busting 3 foot snow drifts all day.

Bailey sounds like he'll mostly hunt ruffies with a couple trips out to Sodak for pheasants. I'm guessing the Sodak trips are when the weather is somewhat favorable. Bailey also stated that if the conditions are too extreme for the dog hot/cold/deep snow that it'd be too extreme for him too.

[ezzy333]

This is Minnesota not Antarctica. An EP will be fine in MN. I live and hunt in MN with a shorthair that has a coat that is more EP-like than GSP-like. She does fine and I will quit in cold weather before she does. Dogs generate body heat by running and hunting and that'll keep any dog plenty warm. Hunting season in MN starts in mid Sept and runs through Dec. The vast majority of the hunting season occurs when the temps are much warmer and many times late Dec is "warm" too. I'd optimize my choice for Sept, Oct, Nov and early Dec. A heavy coat is only optimal for late Dec IMHO.

Get yourself an EP. You've stated you like them. There are a couple of grouse dog trialers (probably more) in MN that would have the exact type of EP you are looking for. I'd start researching down that path first. Look up Jerry Kolter at Northwoods birddogs in Northern MN. He breeds grouse dogs and will have a better opinion than anyone on the matter.

Show me when it was warm this year in ND and Northern MN from Nov25th to January 3rd. Also, there was 40 inches of snow almost all winter. Dogs get VERY cold when their bodies are surrounded by snow, it is windy, and is below zero regular temperature. I agree that most of the season would be fine, but to say it doesn't get cold enough to matter is just plain wrong. I hunted with a guy in late season that had pointers actually start to fall down while running because they were experiencing hypothermia. They had the heart of a lion, but hypothermia is science. No escaping it. Also, if you are hunting near sloughs in the Dakotas, which many people do, your dog is going to fall through and break ice. There is no way around it. That is what happened to those pointers. A bird was shot and they went to retrieve. They were wet, it was cold and windy, and they were not doing well. A good coat would be most helpful in that situation. Now, in the heat the opposite is true.

Give me a break. How are you going to break ice if it is as cold as you say? Must be some wicked currents in those sloughs. It gets plenty cold here, not quite as cold as ND but I have run dogs approaching negative 30F and dehydration and frostbite are concerns. Hypothermia for a hardworking dog in the field running is ridiculous.

Tell me why it is necessary to argue a short haired dog is just as good in very cold conditions as a heavier coated dog? I know as well as the rest of you that Birddogz has no clue how to converse in a normal way but that is not an excuse to argue everything he says. That makes you all just as guilty as he is.

Pointers will do better and stand heat better than heavy coated dogs and they will have more problems with cold. It's the way it has been for ever and it is the way it will be in the future.

Ezzy

[Birddogz]

This is Minnesota not Antarctica. An EP will be fine in MN. I live and hunt in MN with a shorthair that has a coat that is more EP-like than GSP-like. She does fine and I will quit in cold weather before she does. Dogs generate body heat by running and hunting and that'll keep any dog plenty warm. Hunting season in MN starts in mid Sept and runs through Dec. The vast majority of the hunting season occurs when the temps are much warmer and many times late Dec is "warm" too. I'd optimize my choice for Sept, Oct, Nov and early Dec. A heavy coat is only optimal for late Dec IMHO.

Get yourself an EP. You've stated you like them. There are a couple of grouse dog trialers (probably more) in MN that would have the exact type of EP you are looking for. I'd start researching down that path first. Look up Jerry Kolter at Northwoods birddogs in Northern MN. He breeds grouse dogs and will have a better opinion than anyone on the matter.

Show me when it was warm this year in ND and Northern MN from Nov25th to January 3rd. Also, there was 40 inches of snow almost all winter. Dogs get VERY cold when their bodies are surrounded by snow, it is windy, and is below zero regular temperature. I agree that most of the season would be fine, but to say it doesn't get cold enough to matter is just plain wrong. I hunted with a guy in late season that had pointers actually start to fall down while running because they were experiencing hypothermia. They had the heart of a lion, but hypothermia is science. No escaping it. Also, if you are hunting near sloughs in the Dakotas, which many people do, your dog is going to fall through and break ice. There is no way around it. That is what happened to those pointers. A bird was shot and they went to retrieve. They were wet, it was cold and windy, and they were not doing well. A good coat would be most helpful in that situation. Now, in the heat the opposite is true.

Give me a break. How are you going to break ice if it is as cold as you say? Must be some wicked currents in those sloughs. It gets plenty cold here, not quite as cold as ND but I have run dogs approaching negative 30F and dehydration and frostbite are concerns. Hypothermia for a hardworking dog in the field running is ridiculous.

When you have large amounts of snow on top of sloughs, you have the rotting of plant material. This consumes oxygen and causes the release of heat. Early snows insulate. The more that is insulated, the more that causes ice not to form. My dogs hunt no matter what. They hunt no matter the temperature.

[Birddogz]

know I have no reason to expect a thread to stay on task, but cant this be handled by PMs???

How dare you? What is the entertainment value in that? I want you to think of these threads and your personal needs in the political sense. You see Bailey, you have a need, so you ask a question and some well meaning folks give you an answer BUT at the same time others need to be entertained. So a well intentioned thread like yours becomes dilluted to satisfy the dirty, creepy, voyeuristic, can't look away from the accident, reality tv spectacle the rest of us are hoping for. As you well know this bargain is the way a bill gets through congress.

Now, Birddogz which color pointing lab would it take to win a wild grouse cover dog trial in Potter County, Pa.?

How many wild birds do you kill per year? I'm waiting......LOL

[Chukar12]

Well I don't actually count but depending on the year between 50 and 200. I guide for a few more...OHHHH and that doesn't account for all of those that my dogs and I pick up off the ground frozen to death in the high desert wind chill...its pretty brutal

[RayGubernat]

baileydog2007 -

I have a little experience with pointers which might be useful to you. I have always preferred hard charging dogs. That is pretty easy to find in pointers.

I have found that, with few exceptions, you can take a dog from high performance (all age or shooting dog) parents and make that dog into a very serviceable hunting dog that will hunt the way you want it to hunt. Come may take a little more "convincing" than others, to do it your way, but almost all of them will because they live and breathe to hunt and if they MUST do it your way...they will.

I have found that a dog that will run huge in open areas can be taught that it must close down and hunt close in heavy cover. It is more a matter of experience, esposure and consistency in your demands and expectations than anything else.

Some pointers are aloof...no question about it. However I have found the truly aloof pointer to be rather rare these days. Most are independent and proud, which can be taken for aloofness. I have a little gyp that will sit by the fence sunning herself while the rest of the tribe runs around. She looks for all the world like she is just letting the world spin and taking it all in. However, when I call her, she comes to me like a bullet, jumps up and sits in my lap and eats up all the attention I can give her. She was just waiting her turn and God help the dog that tries to horn in on her time. She will crawl inside my shirt if given half a chance. Proud and independent...you bet. Tough as iron...yes sir. Detatched...yup, that too. Aloof...not exactly.

Some pointers run big. I have a sixty some odd pound pointer male that I am not afraid to put down on the ground with winning horseback all age dogs. But a good dog has an elastic ground application that stretches when it can and pulls right back in when necessary. That same dog will hunt a forty acre preserve for me(as I insist all my dogs do) and has run in and placed in an AKC Gundog stake. I hunt all my dogs on foot and trial all the same dogs on foot and on horseback. They get it done, anywhere, anytime...in any company because that is what I expect of them.

I am actually running that same male dog to a walking field trial this coming weekend and expect that he will do well. When he is not running, he enjoys rubbing himself against my legs from head to tail, reversing direction and rubbing again head to tail. The only thing he doesn't do is purr. He sorta grunts. I don't have the heart to tell him he is not a cat.

To my mind, the one thing you MUST do with a pointer is to make real good friends with that dog. If a pointer likes you and respects you, the dog will come back for you from wherever it is hunting and if it finds birds it will wait for you to get there. However, if a pointer does not like you...it will find a way to get away from you in spite of training, discipline, electronics, whatever.

Lastly you mentioned concerns about housebreaking a started dog. I think hoursebreaking a kennel dog, making friends and bonding with a kennel dog is a piece of cake. Pointers are indeed independent and proud and are mentally tough enough to do very well in a kennel with minimal human contact. I think that is because they are able to simply "turn off", so they don't go screwy. However, if a dog that has been kenneled is then exposed to human comradeship, ongoing attention and affection, and given the chance to become a part of a family, it will be very quick to adapt to and thrive in the new environment.

I cannot answer if a pointer is the right dog for you. That is your call. However, anything you want a dog to do in the upland a pointer can do, and do well. AND there are plenty to choose from with all levels of abilities.

Pretty much all of the same can be said for several other breeds especially, in my experience, GSP's and English Setters. Lots of choices for you out there.

RayG

[slistoe]

Tell me why it is necessary to argue a short haired dog is just as good in very cold conditions as a heavier coated dog?
Ezzy

Because a properly acclimated dog with a short coat will be very serviceable in any conditions that 99% of upland hunters will find themselves hunting in. So what is the point of bringing it up?

[slistoe]

Great post Ray. As Always.

[baileydog2007]

http://www.nitrokennels.com/detail/samm ... itter.html


Anyone have any thoughts on this ped/litter. Its the one I think I want. Any thoughts would be appreciated. By the way, thanks a lot Ray, very helpful.


http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=3538

And this is the other possibility.

[ezzy333]

Tell me why it is necessary to argue a short haired dog is just as good in very cold conditions as a heavier coated dog?
Ezzy

Because a properly acclimated dog with a short coat will be very serviceable in any conditions that 99% of upland hunters will find themselves hunting in. So what is the point of bringing it up?

Because it is something that one should think about where ever they live. Depending on the type of hunting one does, their kenneling conditions, and the weather conditions they hunt in are the reasons one needs to consider the dogs ability to handle those conditions in comfort.

Looks like a well bred litter that should produce some nice puppies.

Ezzy

[Winchey]

Exactly, and considering the dog would not be hunting waterfowl and would live in the house I am of the opinion that a lesser coat would be just fine, maybe even benificial for a hardworking upland dog, even in cold temperatures.

[ezzy333]

Exactly, and considering the dog would not be hunting waterfowl and would live in the house I am of the opinion that a lesser coat would be just fine, maybe even benificial for a hardworking upland dog, even in cold temperatures.

Great. State your opinion and leave it at that. And let other people state their opinion without further comment from you. I think that is the way it works when you are asked your opinion.

Since it seems most everyone has stated their opinions and are now trying to find fault with others opinions there is no more constructive help for the OP being added so the thread will be locked.

Ezzy