Gun Dog Forum

No wonder NAVHDA has exploded!!!

No wonder NAVHDA has exploded!!!

Why's that? Because we have a few disagreements? People disagree and have different views on issues. Not a big deal, won't stop any of us from doing what we love to do.

I've read some rather obnoxious arguments on some NAVHDA boards... don't believe it''s all sugar and spice there either!

fuzznut wrote: Glad to hear you are all entering the big pointer championships.
Fuzz

Trust me I wasn't running in any 1 hr. Championships. My dogs don't have the stuff for that.
By the way, congrats on the accomplishments you and your dog have made. Much better than I.

JKP wrote:No wonder NAVHDA has exploded!!!

No one can accuse you of ducking the competition there!!!

IMO Navhda has gained in popularity because they do a great job of getting new people involved.

Fuzznut I was just trying to elude to some of the cost associated directly with the profession of dog training. All of the of the other costs that you mentioned we all have no matter what job we have other than horse trailers, horses and some of the others but for the most part many of the costs are everyday costs incurred by any family and Snips a lot of the equipment you mentioned as expenses I personally have and I am not a pro dog trainer. I think a lot of that equipment is just stuff we have as hunters and amateur trainers as well. I am not trying to step on the toes of any of you pros I have tremendous respect for what you chose as a profession. I prefer to train my own dogs and hunt my own dogs and hopefully if I can ever get my wife finished with college and move out of this foresaken land they call the Oklahoma panhandle I may have the opportunity to trial myself and meet some of you. Many of the pro trainers have lots of land or leases, nice houses, birds out the wazoo, nice kennel setups, usually pretty nice vehicles some with nice expensive dog trailers and horse trailers, more equipment than you can shake a stick at, etc. etc. Many of you I do not know I do know Texasdogtrainer who is someone I have a tremendous amount of respect for and whose opinion I value a great deal and I know dog training and trialing is a second job for him. He actually has another career that is his bread and butter and supports his family. How many of you do this as a single income? There has to be a decent living in it or many of you would not have the things you do and the success you do. I am in now way saying you are getting rich at it but I am sure you make a comfortable living or you would give up and do something else. Hope I did not offend anyone.

I know the costs, time and moneywise, for a bunch of dogs from an owner perspective. Cannot imagine trying to make a living at it, especially knowing how people are as customers. I try to keep my money spending on par with the amount of time my other half dedicates to being a volunteer firefighter EMT.

JKP wrote:No wonder NAVHDA has exploded!!!


No one can accuse you of ducking the competition there!!!

Folks want bragging rights everywhere. What I was referring to is the costs....I don't travel in circles that can spend $5-600 month to train and campaign a dog. $5-10K for an FC is not in most peoples budgets....NAVHDA is a whole lot more user friendly and you get a good hunting dog out of it as well...that's all I meant.

Anyone who thinks good trainers dont make good money is dead wrong. I know a national calibre lab trainer, he does very, very well. Any trainer who can have 15-20 dogs a month at 450-600 per month and isnt doing well, needs a financial advisor, badly. A great many of the expenses that were listed as a pro trainers "expense", are expenses we all incurr monthly. Also, most professional trainers dont do it just a few months of the year, its a 12 month a year job, like everyones. The one expense that is a bit higher is health ins, as training is obviously not going to have a group ins policy. but if the spouse works.........

Now, poor trainers, or trainers who dont know how to run a business (but are still good/great trainers) wont make good money, just like any business, financial responsibility, long and short term planning, and customer service are as important as training ability. The ones who do it all well, just like any small business owner, do well (at least by my standards). The ones who struggle in one or more of those areas, tend to not last or struggle.

And while all of us on this board obviously love dogs, and have some degree of ability to work with them, doing it 24/7/365 for several dogs a day, takes a special personality and skill set that most dont have. If we did, Im sure a lot would be trying to make a living at it, but it would, for me, take a lot of the fun out of it. I respect those who can do it, and acknowledge its hard work, but I would disagree they dont do "well", at least by my defination. The ones who dont, probably are "pros" only because its thier job, not based on how well they are doing all parts of it.

If you break down what people make per day for just boarding a dog and birddog trainers make per day, you better believe the birddog trainers love what they do...Simple boarding entails no equipment and supplies cost or bird cost...We buy 100 birds appr per week here....Not to mention what that entails in feed, housing and upkeep for quail and pigeons....Maybe better off just boarding :roll:

There are about a half a dozen post on this thread that are hilarious! Some people have NO clue. Good reading though. Keep it coming, its a great way to get a slow Monday going.

Some people have NO clue

About which part? many pieces to running a dog in any type of competition.

The person I would use for training if Idid that gets 600 a month or more that was 2 years ago so I dont really know what he gets now.

Any hobby will cost you something, heck bird watchers need high powerd binocs pick your hobby and go for it if it is dogs, then you will have a lot of fun too.

I’m not going to get into what dog trainers make, all I know is that if they don’t do it for the love of the dogs, you need to find another trainer.

But getting back to the reason for this thread, what you guys are saying is that it’s okay if A-Rod went back and played on a high school team or Payton Manny play for Ole Miss again, or is Mike Tracy and Luke Eisenhart show up at a Vizla trial or Lee pitch a college game, interesting!

Ya Elhew not a clue!

In Brittanys we're pretty much forced to run OGD and AGD stakes, regardless of our dogs' prior accomplishments as we have to requalify for our breed National Championships every single year at a trial put on by a Brittany club.

Joe Amatulli wrote:I’m not going to get into what dog trainers make, all I know is that if they don’t do it for the love of the dogs, you need to find another trainer.

But getting back to the reason for this thread, what you guys are saying is that it’s okay if A-Rod went back and played on a high school team or Payton Manny play for Ole Miss again, or is Mike Tracy and Luke Eisenhart show up at a Vizla trial or Lee pitch a college game, interesting!

Ya Elhew not a clue!

Clueless? Peyton Manning played for the Vols. Soap, please.

One question this discussion has made me wonder. If the trainers have the dogs most of the time, the owner pays the entry/handleing fees, and he also gets any monies won at any trial, what the heck does the owner get??? A really expensive dog that he never has with him?? Seems like a heck of a deal.


As far as level of competition, IMO, if the playing field isnt tilted beyond the trainers ability, Id rather go against the best than the worst, Id learn a lot more. Pros who do it everyday and have dogs that, thats all they do, will be tough to beat, for me. But I dont test/trial simply to win (however, we are all competitive and want to win), I like to learn and get better and have my dog do the same. If I entered only the ones I figured Id win or pass, I wouldnt enter as often. I cant speak for pointing trials and tests, so maybe Ill think differently once I do those, but every summer/spring for a few years I have done retriever tests/trials and outside of one bad experience, its been a ton of fun, win, lose, pass, or fail.

You wouldn't keep a racehorse in your backyard.

Cajun Casey wrote:You wouldn't keep a racehorse in your backyard.

I wouldnt buy a racehorse unless I intended on racing.

baileydog2007 wrote:One question this discussion has made me wonder. If the trainers have the dogs most of the time, the owner pays the entry/handleing fees, and he also gets any monies won at any trial, what the heck does the owner get??? A really expensive dog that he never has with him?? Seems like a heck of a deal.


As far as level of competition, IMO, if the playing field isnt tilted beyond the trainers ability, Id rather go against the best than the worst, Id learn a lot more. Pros who do it everyday and have dogs that, thats all they do, will be tough to beat, for me. But I dont test/trial simply to win (however, we are all competitive and want to win), I like to learn and get better and have my dog do the same. If I entered only the ones I figured Id win or pass, I wouldnt enter as often. I cant speak for pointing trials and tests, so maybe Ill think differently once I do those, but every summer/spring for a few years I have done retriever tests/trials and outside of one bad experience, its been a ton of fun, win, lose, pass, or fail.

It's a little different from breed to breed. If it is money you are looking for then, in some breeds, there are dogs that sell for $40K+. But most of it is about a passion you have to watch your animal run/win. It is a great accomplishment to win a Championsip.

ElhewPointer wrote:

baileydog2007 wrote:One question this discussion has made me wonder. If the trainers have the dogs most of the time, the owner pays the entry/handleing fees, and he also gets any monies won at any trial, what the heck does the owner get??? A really expensive dog that he never has with him?? Seems like a heck of a deal.


As far as level of competition, IMO, if the playing field isnt tilted beyond the trainers ability, Id rather go against the best than the worst, Id learn a lot more. Pros who do it everyday and have dogs that, thats all they do, will be tough to beat, for me. But I dont test/trial simply to win (however, we are all competitive and want to win), I like to learn and get better and have my dog do the same. If I entered only the ones I figured Id win or pass, I wouldnt enter as often. I cant speak for pointing trials and tests, so maybe Ill think differently once I do those, but every summer/spring for a few years I have done retriever tests/trials and outside of one bad experience, its been a ton of fun, win, lose, pass, or fail.

It's a little different from breed to breed. If it is money you are looking for then, in some breeds, there are dogs that sell for $40K+. But most of it is about a passion you have to watch your animal run/win. It is a great accomplishment to win a Championsip.

Baileydog -

Elhewpointer gave you(IMO) one of the best reasons why some folks put a dog with a pro and have the pro campaign that dog. There are other motivations as well. Sometimes folks really want to compete, but they cannot, for one reason or another at that point in time.. A pro allows that person to give their dog a chance to be all it can be when the alternative would be to let the dog sit in a kennel or sell it.

I completely understand and agree withyou about not getting anything out of it, because, honestly, that is exactly how I feel personally. If I could not train and run my own dogs, I would almost certainly not have one with a pro both for monetary and personal satisfaction reasons. I freely admit that there are many, many better trainers out there and many, many better handlers than I. I freely admit that it is somewhat unlikely that any of my dogs will ever attain championship status, mostly because they are stuck with me. I'm OK with that and the dogs don't seem to mind much either. Whe I can't run my own dogs anymore, maybe I'll just ride in the gallery or plant birds. When I can't do that either, maybe I'll do some behind the scenes stuff or watch from the car or the clubhouse. Maybe I'll hang out and annoy folks with tales of how great it was in the old days. WAIT...I do that NOW!! OOPS

Each of us is different. We find ourselves in different situations and we have different concepts of what constitutes enjoyment. That is part of the beauty of the sport. It allows many different folks to participate, and to enjoy their participation... at many different levels. Do what you enjoy and try to help the next guy do the same.

RayG

My strategy is to deliberately go to trials where I don't feel bad getting my azz kicked!!

I think I understand where DG is coming from the best.

Go to the trials with the most competitive dogs and run against the Champions of the sport and then you have a valid excuse why you lost.

That sounds pretty logical for some reason.

RayG, Great post. And I agree, there are scores of better trainers/handlers than I ever will be. But the personal enjoyment of competeing and getting better is addicting, winning, losing, passing, or failing. I wasnt asking to be a smartass, I actually wondered why a guy would fork out that kind of money, never have the dog, never be a part of the success, and still enjoy it? But as you said, enjoyment is different for all.

As to ElhewPointer, again, I wasnt meaning to be a smartass, other than the money, it just seems crazy. I can see someone paying 40K for a dog, oddly enough. Ill never be able to do it, but I can see, if a guy was well enough off, it would happen. BUT, IF I ever was in a position to pay that kind of money for a dog, I would want some hand in the dogs success/failure. While I know its a great accomplishment to win a championship, most of the actual dogs owners have no hand in that, other than they write the checks out. So, IMO, those trainers who are skilled enough to do that for a living successfully, would feel a lot more satisfaction about that accomplishment than the actaul owner of the dog. Whick is why I asked if I was missing something. Now, 40K for an animal is a lot, but at 600/month (7200/yr), plus entry fees, vet bills, birds, ect, that 40K can be gobbled up in a hurry. Thanks for the reply.

baileydog2007 wrote:RayG, Great post. And I agree, there are scores of better trainers/handlers than I ever will be. But the personal enjoyment of competeing and getting better is addicting, winning, losing, passing, or failing. I wasnt asking to be a smartass, I actually wondered why a guy would fork out that kind of money, never have the dog, never be a part of the success, and still enjoy it? But as you said, enjoyment is different for all.

As to ElhewPointer, again, I wasnt meaning to be a smartass, other than the money, it just seems crazy. I can see someone paying 40K for a dog, oddly enough. Ill never be able to do it, but I can see, if a guy was well enough off, it would happen. BUT, IF I ever was in a position to pay that kind of money for a dog, I would want some hand in the dogs success/failure. While I know its a great accomplishment to win a championship, most of the actual dogs owners have no hand in that, other than they write the checks out. So, IMO, those trainers who are skilled enough to do that for a living successfully, would feel a lot more satisfaction about that accomplishment than the actaul owner of the dog. Whick is why I asked if I was missing something. Now, 40K for an animal is a lot, but at 600/month (7200/yr), plus entry fees, vet bills, birds, ect, that 40K can be gobbled up in a hurry. Thanks for the reply.

I wasn't taking it as a smartass comment. Its a legit question. I would have to disagree with you on that fact that "most of the actual dogs owners have no hand in that". I would say its quite the opposite. I would say the majority of owners either, raise the pup, socialize it, start the dog. There are quite a few that break the dog and give the dog to the pro as a finished product. There are also a lot of owners that run the dogs in Am. stakes and let the pro run the dog in open stakes.

ElhewPointer wrote:

baileydog2007 wrote:RayG, Great post. And I agree, there are scores of better trainers/handlers than I ever will be. But the personal enjoyment of competeing and getting better is addicting, winning, losing, passing, or failing. I wasnt asking to be a smartass, I actually wondered why a guy would fork out that kind of money, never have the dog, never be a part of the success, and still enjoy it? But as you said, enjoyment is different for all.

As to ElhewPointer, again, I wasnt meaning to be a smartass, other than the money, it just seems crazy. I can see someone paying 40K for a dog, oddly enough. Ill never be able to do it, but I can see, if a guy was well enough off, it would happen. BUT, IF I ever was in a position to pay that kind of money for a dog, I would want some hand in the dogs success/failure. While I know its a great accomplishment to win a championship, most of the actual dogs owners have no hand in that, other than they write the checks out. So, IMO, those trainers who are skilled enough to do that for a living successfully, would feel a lot more satisfaction about that accomplishment than the actaul owner of the dog. Whick is why I asked if I was missing something. Now, 40K for an animal is a lot, but at 600/month (7200/yr), plus entry fees, vet bills, birds, ect, that 40K can be gobbled up in a hurry. Thanks for the reply.

I wasn't taking it as a smartass comment. Its a legit question. I would have to disagree with you on that fact that "most of the actual dogs owners have no hand in that". I would say its quite the opposite. I would say the majority of owners either, raise the pup, socialize it, start the dog. There are quite a few that break the dog and give the dog to the pro as a finished product. There are also a lot of owners that run the dogs in Am. stakes and let the pro run the dog in open stakes.

Ah. Again, my sample size is small. I know (which means I know who he is, lives close to me in the summer, and always has a lot of training a his place, and lets me watch) 1 pro trainer, and of all his dogs Ive watched, I have never met an owner, only other trainers, that was a bad assumption on my part.

I was under the same assumption as bailey and going by posts ive read that implied giving the dog to a trainer, paying costs and letting the trainer work the dog and bring it to these trials and then the trainer getting the recognition and cash while the owner just watching from the sidelines or gets a call to say the dog did well or even won the championship..as far as the comparison of a horse my mom worked at Windsor Raceway for 32 years and owned/groomed/trained for a living(harness horses) we even lived in a tac room for a bit when she started off..she was the one who took care of the well being and conditioning of the horses and of their legs and shoes never ever missing a race, but she did get a driver to race them..still she took pride in the fact that it was her care, training and hard work that got them to the winners circle of course with the help of the driver but in any event it was her that made it happen..she never made it to the kentucky derby but she shook the hands of many taking the acknowledgements for the work she prided herself on..i just was looking at it from that point of view and also from the enjoyment i get from training my dogs then seeing it all come together for me in the field but if i sent my dog away and someone else put it all together that wouldnt be as satisfying for me but then again if for some reason i couldnt train anymore i could see myself talking one of my daughters threw it and enjoying just watching too, well if they did it my way that is ...like what was said everyone finds satisfaction in different things and its nice to see the different opinions and ways of doing things but all having one thing in common, the love of the sport and dogs ...ruth

You wouldn't keep a racehorse in your backyard.

Well some do, my Dad raised racers, thoughobreds. He also boarded, some folks bought into a horse then got overwhelmed at the cost of competition. Horses lived their life on dads farm eating and crapping never to run on a track again. I used to ride em and keep em in shape.

Now Dad had a pro trainer do his horses, he had one made well over 350,000 in two years of running. Dogs are a hobby, horses are a business I was told.

Fishing guys spend upwards of 30 grand for a boat alone, then add in reels and poles and gas and bait....

Hobby is something to do makes you feel good about doing it. Something to relive the daily stress. IMHO

I pretty much trained and ran my own dogs all the time. Here and there we would send one out with a trainer for some kind of specific work that was needed, but for the most part they lived with me. They are my pets and buddies as well as trial dogs.

This past year, I have been unable to do a lot of trials due to health issues in the family, so the dogs went off with someone. They deserved to not be sitting in the back yard doing absolutely nothing for a year.... and I just didn't have the wherewithall to get away.

I'm extremely happy with who the dogs are with now, he likes them, they love him! They've done well, and had a great year. If they had stayed home....none of it would have happened.

Would I rather be the one running them every weekend? You Bet! Do I miss them? Absolutely and I can't wait till the end of May so my boy can come home and sleep on the bed again. Do I hate sending the monthly check? It's not fun to do it, but then again I'll bet it saves me $$$ in the long run.

There are lots of reasons people use a Pro rather then do it themselves...without the Pros our sport would lanquish. Most of them are good folk and very willing to help amateurs.
Fuzz

Fuzz those are all very good points,kinda my reasons for using a pro though it's pretty much a money issue with me or was to start with now add in health & physical ability reasons.
Like you said if it weren't for the pros trials wouln't happen as much as they do now if at all.We need young people & new people to keep up the tradition & tha's what the amateur stakes are there for.We all know though that there are some amateurs that are as good & a few cases better then the pros.
Doing it on your own is the ultimate but don't try to belittle some one that uses a pro because there are many reasons for it.
Believe it or not a pro can be the cheaper route in alot of cases.

^I for one, am definately not knocking pros. I dont think anyone is. Of course they are necessary, 100%. Any and every profession needs pros. Trial numbers, bench marks, mentors, education for the rest of us, ect. And likely, in the end, if all things were added up, could prove financially prudent. But for many, not nearly as fun or fulfilling. For me, this is a very interesting thread. Cool to learn the workings of this business. Everyone has/needs a passion, and everyone with the same passion appraohes it differently, cool thread, awesome site. So glad I found it.

Back to the original topic, ironically, there is discussion in some AKC Conformation circles about the ethics of entering a class dog who already has its Major win in a Major. The one thought is that Majors should be available to those that need them. On the other hand, the opposition to withholding entry says points are points and if you can get them, tough on everyone else.

I would only show a dog in a major to hold the major, once mine has obtained their major....I do not run a dog in Open stakes once finished..I move them to OL.

[quote="Vonzeppelinkennels"]We need young people & new people to keep up the tradition & tha's what the amateur stakes are there for.

Is this young enough?. LOL

Figured I would share this..... This is our 6 year old pretending to field trial a 8 week old puppy...

raven34 wrote:

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:We need young people & new people to keep up the tradition & tha's what the amateur stakes are there for.

Is this young enough?. LOL

Figured I would share this..... This is our 6 year old pretending to field trial a 8 week old puppy...
(He did this on his very own)

Ryan and sky.jpg

Ryan saying UP AHEAD SKY.jpg

At this point guys for our clan this is what it is all about....This makes me smile

Jen

Raven that is cool,I love it & that's what it is & should be about!!!!

Raven... they are great pictures!!! And so cool that he is into it!
In the past clubs used to run Jr stakes... don't see it too much any more. Maybe it's something we should all put on our agendas for future events?

I know it's tough when you have 80 skazillion dogs to run.... but if we don't take care of our future???? Who will?

Thanks for sharing those pictures!
Fuzz

raven34 wrote:

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:We need young people & new people to keep up the tradition & tha's what the amateur stakes are there for.

Is this young enough?. LOL

Figured I would share this..... This is our 6 year old pretending to field trial a 8 week old puppy...

Ryan and sky.jpg

Ryan saying UP AHEAD SKY.jpg

Awsome!!! Too cute!

Raven, that is awesome!! Thanks for sharing!

Charlie

Joe Amatulli wrote: How about running your FC in a gun dog stake rather than the limited stake, because the competition is not as severe, how does that make you feel.

I agree with Joe but let me try to rephrase what he is trying to say. It is an unwritten rule that if your dog is a FC or AFC you should only run your dog in limited stakes. It is exactly as someone mentioned above about a Major in the show ring. The reasoning is that you try to be considerate about dogs still needing a win to get their FC or AFC. There is "usually" not always, more competition in the limited stakes, for this reason and the fact that you need to qualify to run in a limited stake. Therefore, there is less competition in a regular gun dog stake vs a limited stake.

I understand everyone's point about the competition aspect of it, but like I said, it is done out of consideration for others.

It really does seem to be an AKC concern. as far as I can tell. When Copper was chasing his daddy's NSTRA record, I didn't hear very much in the way of hatin' on him. It was real kick to see his daughter whip him, too.

Cajun Casey wrote:It really does seem to be an AKC concern. as far as I can tell. When Copper was chasing his daddy's NSTRA record, I didn't hear very much in the way of hatin' on him. It was real kick to see his daughter whip him, too.

That's apples and oranges. In nstra you can have multiple champions. Once you are a FC in AKC that is it.

ElhewPointer wrote:

Cajun Casey wrote:It really does seem to be an AKC concern. as far as I can tell. When Copper was chasing his daddy's NSTRA record, I didn't hear very much in the way of hatin' on him. It was real kick to see his daughter whip him, too.

That's apples and oranges. In nstra you can have multiple champions. Once you are a FC in AKC that is it.

You think that's maybe why I said it seems to be an AKC problem?

In a previous thread I mentioned britt clubs out in ca city don't offer a limited stake. You have 50-60 dogs in open gun dog (chukar12 took third in btw). Those are the only OGD and AGD stakes where i have seen DC, FC, AFC Running in and in high numbers. Considering the rule of a britt having a major win in a britt trial it seems as though they are screwing it up for britt owners for two reasons. #1 they let GSP s. Enter and #2 if the dog has 30 points and 10 majors with a good day and is beat by an NFC... think about it. ( did I mention the club doesn't offer a limited stake ).

I don't know how points are kept for GSP but I have herd it is total dogs beat... well that's fine for OGD but as far as dogs with a title they should only count limited points. In some trials out west you have a minimum of a four point major in most stakes without FC entered. I don't know how many dogs run on the east coast but to have a FC or AFC beat a dog that's better then the other 25+ dogs is ridiculous.

ultracarry wrote:I don't know how many dogs run on the east coast but to have a FC or AFC beat a dog that's better then the other 25+ dogs is ridiculous.

So pandering for easier wins to title more dogs as FC is a good thing in your opinion?

So pandering for easier wins to title more dogs as FC is a good thing in your opinion?

Sure, so is sandbagging for easy wins instead of moving up to more competitive stakes. :roll:

Heck, I just wish I could fine a trial with easy pickins'.

I go to the GSP trials around here and get to run against Ray Dohse, Chris Coegan, Dave Walker, Culpepper, Caleb Bryson, David King, Brenda and Rick, etc. etc.. It aint bad to take 2nd, 3rd against stiff competition, but dang! It could be a little easier!

I thought I'd go to a Vizsla trial up in WV. once and ended up placing second 3 stakes in a row behind Dave Phomphret and a dang string of NFC vizslas.

I can't seem to find any easy ones!

If you know where any are, I got 3 dogs that needs to be finished, so let me know!!!!!!

Sounds really complicated, just enter the dog, pay the entry fee and let the judges placed them accordingly. Who is there and what they have done has little to do with what is about to happen. If your dog is prepared than turn loose and handle your dog to best of your ability and have as much fun as possible.

ultracarry wrote:I don't know how many dogs run on the east coast but to have a FC or AFC beat a dog that's better then the other 25+ dogs is ridiculous.

DON'T get into retriever trialing then, as it's commonplace to have 50-80 dogs in an open stake, with every pro there running every FC and NFC he's got on his truck.

What you need to remember is that unlike GSPs, many breeds require a dog to requalify for their AKC national championship every year. Among major AKC breeds, the GSPs are unusual in that a FC is qualified for life.

While I'm not sure that the Brittany requirement of winning a major stake at a Brit trial is the answer, I wouldn't mind seeing an increase in the requirement for an FC for GSPs to ensure that the broke dog wins come against competition that's representative of what the GSP breed has to offer. I'd also like to see a change in the requirements for the DC to include a placement in an hour stake.

JMO,
Dave

Why should DCs be required to have an hour stake placement?

fuzznut--

food for humans? what kind of luxury establishment are you running? I'll tell you this, no feed, no breed. And that'll take care of the kids' bills line item you got listed. And insurance--you only need insurance if you have assets. nobody accumulates assets putting it into dogs.

How do you make a small fortune field trialing--start with a large on.