Akc Hunting tests

[bb560m]

I stand corrected.

246 GSP Duals and 172 Vizsla Duals. Still, for the number of vizslas versus the number of GSPs I think that is pretty impressive.

Big time! Seems like vizslas are adding 5-10/yr and a lot of people are breeding for that. Hopefully our guy will be there in a year or two!

[nikegundog]

1946 last Dual Labrador

There are 2 dual labs that I know of since then. Dual Ch. Ridgewood Play Boy , Dual CH Hiwoods Shadow, 1984.

I didn't include those because Ridgewood Play Boy had a Canadian title and Hiwoods Shadow had a AFC and my understanding is a DC must have a FC not an AFC, I could be wrong. However Hiwoods would be the last Ch/AFC titled dog.

[bb560m]

I didn't include those because Ridgewood Play Boy had a Canadian title and Hiwoods Shadow had a AFC and my understanding is a DC must have a FC not an AFC, I could be wrong. However Hiwoods would be the last Ch/AFC titled dog.

DC = FC + Ch only
AFC + Ch. != DC

[nikegundog]

I didn't include those because Ridgewood Play Boy had a Canadian title and Hiwoods Shadow had a AFC and my understanding is a DC must have a FC not an AFC, I could be wrong. However Hiwoods would be the last Ch/AFC titled dog.

DC = FC + Ch only
AFC + Ch. != DC

Sorry I know very little of Confirmation, I saw on the AKC website that a DC was CH+FC made no note of AFC.

[dan v]

I could agree that the dog has to meet the confirmation standard to compete in the breed clubs breed championship though, if that is what they want to promote.

I would caution you to examine that thought in greater detail.

If you look at the people that make up the membership of the AKC dog clubs, I think you'll find the the Conformation people, and pet owners, vastly outnumber the FT people. Now that not necessarily a bad thing, but recall, dog clubs are a pure democracy. If you can get 50% +1 person to go with a rule change, the rule change will come. So people that have a minority position in a given breed can be steamrolled by the process.

Let's say the members of ISCA decided that a minimum height would be beneficial to the breed. Somebody with an axe to grind against the field dogs makes the motion, it gets in front of the membership and passes with 51% of the voting members. (or whatever their club bylaws state a voting member is). Let's say the new standard mandated no dogs under 26" could be shown in either the NS or NFT.....but there are no competitive IS over 25" (dogs).

Now, what has that done to the event? And what signal has that given the field breeders? And what signal has that given the public?

I've maintained the position that the Gordon Setter Club of America has a NFT... because the show people allow us to have one. And that they "allow" us to have one could change tomorrow.....by changing the standard and setting forth a policy that dogs have to comply with the standard in order to enter the NFT. The field people couldn't stop that if they tried, "we" don't have the numbers on our side.

[cjhills]

Hunt test might have more meaning if the AKC set higher standards for the judges instead of have judges that will pass every dog. There are a lot of judges that don't seem to know what the standards are.

We always have people who say the judges pass too many dogs. However the numbers on the AKC events don't bear that out.
The Gordon setter club of Mn. Results From last year;
4-39-11 JH 11 starters 3Q SH 7 starters 3Q MH 18 starters 9Q
5-1-11 JH 13 starters 6A SH 5 starters 0Q MH 13 starters 3Q
GPCMN
5-21-11 JH 11 starters 6Q SH 6 starters 2Q MH 11 starter 4Q
By the numbers it don't look like every dog passes. We pretty much think we and everybody else has earned our passes. Some times you catch a break but more often it is the other way.
The best Hun hunting dog I ever had gets DQ'd when she gets in alot of bird because she shortens her range and slows. After four or five birds handle perfectly in a hunting situation some judges order her picked up. Saying she's not bold and independent. Maybe not bold, but she fills the bird pouch. Some give her a five and she has high enough scores to pass, She is finished so we are done with that. But this is a super covey bird dog.
It does seem more dogs are passing than used, to but maybe as more people train and handle their own dogs they are both getting better repore with the dogs. Hope fully thats what it is all about. It works for me and most of my clientel anyway .
They shouldn't DQ a dog just because too many are passing. I've seen good dogs not pass but not many bad dogs pass. They almost always take themselves out sooner or later. We just need to make sure we don't go with them.
Thanks. J

[cjhills]

I could agree that the dog has to meet the confirmation standard to compete in the breed clubs breed championship though, if that is what they want to promote.

I would caution you to examine that thought in greater detail.

If you look at the people that make up the membership of the AKC dog clubs, I think you'll find the the Conformation people, and pet owners, vastly outnumber the FT people. Now that not necessarily a bad thing, but recall, dog clubs are a pure democracy. If you can get 50% +1 person to go with a rule change, the rule change will come. So people that have a minority position in a given breed can be steamrolled by the process.

Let's say the members of ISCA decided that a minimum height would be beneficial to the breed. Somebody with an axe to grind against the field dogs makes the motion, it gets in front of the membership and passes with 51% of the voting members. (or whatever their club bylaws state a voting member is). Let's say the new standard mandated no dogs under 26" could be shown in either the NS or NFT.....but there are no competitive IS over 25" (dogs).

Now, what has that done to the event? And what signal has that given the field breeders? And what signal has that given the public?

I've maintained the position that the Gordon Setter Club of America has a NFT... because the show people allow us to have one. And that they "allow" us to have one could change tomorrow.....by changing the standard and setting forth a policy that dogs have to comply with the standard in order to enter the NFT. The field people couldn't stop that if they tried, "we" don't have the numbers on our side.

That is a eye opener, Dan. Thanks J

[Winchey]

Wyndancer

You make some great points. I'm not really interested in breed clubs to be honest, I mean look at the English Setter Clubs Website.



I didn't realize the breed was just supposed to be a house pet. Is there really much point of a standard other then looks when producing pets?

With the Brits I think there are enough dogs out there to handle a split quite well. I don't really see how anyone or group can really have exclusive rights on what your dog should look like.

I don't see what the problem with splits are really. Brit x Brit = Brit in my book.

With the setters we have the trial dogs, dual/ryman/llewelans, and show, and people can buy what they want. Works for me, doesn't really bother me that there are other types either.

However I do see how this could be very worrisome with a rarer breed like your Gordons.

[ezzy333]

Winchey, what do you find offensive about the ESAA website? They are very clear about their purpose and that is to guard the breed as a whole through education and helping anyone interested in finding a pup or dog.

The purpose of the standard is to provide a book of rules of just what the setter is. Everysetter owner in the world can probably recognize a setter when they see ose which wouldn't be true if there was no stanard descibing the breed. We all are quite concerned about the standards, even those who claim they aren't. I hear people talk abvout a pointer not having a written standard and yet what breed is more concerned about the position of the tail, the length of the tail, the color of the dogs, or the position of the head while pointing.

Same goes for color of the GSP and the Britt, coat of the wirehaired breeds and water retrievers, and the gaqit of the dogs in the field. What I normally hear is people saying a standard means nothing to me except in the areas that I want in my dogs.

Without standards or quidelines there is nothing that says my two dogs that look like Britts are real a GWP and a Pointing Lab. Seems we all want our dogs to have a standard as long as we can write it to suit our personal interest.

Ezzy

[Winchey]

Yes Ezz, and then they go on to not even mention hunting instinct in the least. They may be interested in guarding the breed as a whole, but you can tell where there priorities are, there is no attempt for balance. I am not offended by it, but those are not the people I want making the standards for a hunting dog, I am sure they are nice people though. It is just not something I am interested in or feel any desire to be part of.

Ezz, Those setters on that website have more in common with my Golden Retriever then they do with my setter. However, I still know a setter when I see one, no matter what type.

I don't know that we all want all dogs to conform to the standard we personally deem best, but we all like what we like and want our dogs to mirror the ideal one in our head yes.

[birdshot]

I believe requiring a certain average to obtain a more prestigous title will hurt the AKC Test more than it would help. I recall from my days of running hunt test with retrievers that there was always talk of certain handlers would not run their dogs under a certain judge. The handler, usually a pro with many dogs, would make their hunt test schedule based which tests had easy judges. If clubs realize the entry is down because they used judges that have a reputation for not passing dogs, the club wont be using those judges. The level of quality will suffer and the MH will mean less.

[cjhills]

I believe requiring a certain average to obtain a more prestigous title will hurt the AKC Test more than it would help. I recall from my days of running hunt test with retrievers that there was always talk of certain handlers would not run their dogs under a certain judge. The handler, usually a pro with many dogs, would make their hunt test schedule based which tests had easy judges. If clubs realize the entry is down because they used judges that have a reputation for not passing dogs, the club wont be using those judges. The level of quality will suffer and the MH will mean less.

It happens in pointing dog tests also. It is not that the judges are tougher as much as personal opinions differ. a big running trial judge won't give my 70 yd grouse dog much of a score in hunting.
My super conditioned rocket retriever who took the gunners breathe away never got more than a 7 in retrieving. I never got that.
Sometimes the judge just don't like you. Not in my case,of course, but for some people that happens. I was told early on by my young pro trainer friend not to look at the score because you will always be disappointed. My old bitch scored 59, 58, 57 and 43 in her last 4 tests the runs were pretty much the same. She is a very solid dog who don't make mistakes.The field trial judge gave her 5 sevens and an eight. Seven being average. This is in know way a average dog ,except in his eyes.I payed for his opinion that day. So I don't have a complaint. a pass is a pass. He's not wrong and i'm not right. It just we march to different drummers
You are silly to waste your money if you know the judge don't like your dog and it don't take long to learn. Judges aren't right or wrong but keep your rule book in your pocket and hope they have a AKC rep handy.
This is why I say it could be very difficult to average 8. Judges that won't give high enough score don't necessarily raise the quality of the dogs and judges who give to high scores don't necessarily lower it.
Thanks J

[ezzy333]

I'm having trouble agreeing with much of what you are saying about the judging and the scores given. Since testing and trialing are judging different qualities I wouldn't expect a dog that is good in one to be great in the other. Most good test dogs are not ever going to run with a trial dog and many trial dogs are not going to get great scores in handling for a test. I also think if you are serious about judges not liking you there is a reason. I do agree some might not like your dog as well but that is just part of differing opinions but I just can't think a judge rides up to introduce himself and makes a decision that he doesn't like you. At least I hope I am right.

At this time I have no real interest in the added levels of the hunt test but I think it is great for people who do. The more activities someone thinks up for people to do with their dogs the better for them and their dogs. The worst thing that can happen with our dogs is to spend all of their time in a kennel except for the few weekends they get to go hunting. This whole thing sounds like a great opportunity for those dogs to get out into the yard to be worked with and I will bet you can't find a dog that isn't happy about that.

Ezzy

[cjhills]

I'm having trouble agreeing with much of what you are saying about the judging and the scores given.

I think you may be missing my my point. This is not a agree or disagree situation. This is the judging and scores given and I thought I was very clear to point out that it is not right or wrong. Judging is based on how each individual sees the dog. It has nothing to do with test dogs or trial dogs. Judging is subjective. If you prefer big running dogs you wiil score them higher. If you know the judge is going to give you a low score and you need to average eight you are silly to waste your money

Since testing and trialing are judging different qualities I wouldn't expect a dog that is good in one to be great in the other

.I don't get this

Most good test dogs are not ever going to run with a trial dog and many trial dogs are not going to get great scores in handling for a test.

This has nothing to do with what i'm saying

I also think if you are serious about judges not liking you there is a reason.

I didn't say the judge might not like me. They all do

I do agree some might not like your dog as well but that is just part of differing opinions but

Exactly

I just can't think a judge rides up to introduce himself and makes a decision that he doesn't like you. At least I hope I am right.

When you have done this as long as I have you know all the judges, they don't have to introduce themselves

At this time I have no real interest in the added levels of the hunt test but I think it is great for people who do. The more activities someone thinks up for people to do with their dogs the better for them and their dogs. The worst thing that can happen with our dogs is to spend all of their time in a kennel except for the few weekends they get to go hunting. This whole thing sounds like a great opportunity for those dogs to get out into the yard to be worked with and I will bet you can't find a dog that isn't happy about that.

This is great. The whole thing was about hunt test score and why there are inconsistencies Thanks

Ezzy

[cjhills]

Howie:
That is pretty much exactly what I said. If you need eights and you know the judge won't score that high you are wasting you're time and money.
I was not whining I was pointing out why there is inconsistency and that the higher scoring dog might not be superior. It is just a difference of opinion
J

[Dakota Swede]

I'm 54 years old and have been hunting, well, pheasant hunting with my dad and being around hunting dogs long before I could carry a gun, and for decades after.

So the question is - is a dog made to ----

Win field championships?

Earn hunt test titles?

Look good in the show ring?

Be a personal hunting dog?

Be a personal and family pet?

I think beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I think if you believe one is on the top of the mountain and all the others are in the gutter, well, maybe you should take your blinders off. I have guided many a hunter with poor gundogs. It wouldn't have worked for me, but the owners loved the dogs dearly, and bless their hearts for it.

[ultracarry]

There are a lot of people that do hunt tests and trials at the same time. If you are going for your FC, AFC, MH, etc you should be able to get your dog around a hunt test course. the dogs don't care what they are doing as long as you put them on the ground and let them find birds.

I think where the gap would be in All Age dogs, owners that don't care, owners that can only afford one or the other, regions that have more FT/HT vs the opposite. Some people don't know what's required in each even because they have heard rumors or got a bad taste prior to being involved. I know some that are brought in on one aspect and stay there because they are comfortable even though the dogs are capable of other things.

[cjhills]

I'm 54 years old and have been hunting, well, pheasant hunting with my dad and being around hunting dogs long before I could carry a gun, and for decades after.

So the question is - is a dog made to ----

Win field championships?

Earn hunt test titles?

Look good in the show ring?

Be a personal hunting dog?

Be a personal and family pet?

all of the above

I think beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I think if you believe one is on the top of the mountain and all the others are in the gutter, well, maybe you should take your blinders off. I have guided many a hunter with poor gundogs. It wouldn't have worked for me, but the owners loved the dogs dearly, and bless their hearts for it.

This is exactly right and why hunt test scores are subjective. Who is to say what is a good dog or a good dog.
But we pay our entry fees to have our dog judged against a standard. I don't take my dog home and shoot him because he got a low score and guess what,the dog could care less. He doesn't read the score card and he had a good time. I have no argument if the judges opinion disagrees with mine. Nobody paid for mine. His or her opinion don't raise or lower the calibre of the dogs. But I would reconsider paying for it again. This is not so much in a Q or DQ situation as it is in a high or lower score. We all know some judges score higher than others. If you need high scores go to the high scorer. Not right or wrong it just makes sense. J

[Buckeye_V]

I could not disgree with you more Ezzy. How many dogs have you seen that you know compete in both Field Trials and Hunt Test venues? I can rattle off a list of at least 50 that I know of here in OH and PA.

There are some venues that dogs look good doing both. My dog in particular knows the difference and handles accordingly. I can put him in postage stamp if need be or let him roll across a 500 acre field.

What's your pleasure?