Gun Dog Forum

I'm keeping the lemon and I'm going to campaign here

good for you Chuck, hope you can get a title

Thanks mike I have to much to prove then to let all these bloggers tell me that the is faulty when half the dogs over here today competing are carrying the e gene.chuck

Hanshaw wrote:I'm keeping the lemon and I'm going to campaign here

Your going to campaign the lemon "GSP"? I hope it works out for you, but I just don't see the point.
Male or female either way it will never influence the breed in a positive way..

I'll say this you got some stones

Ron R wrote:Why does anyone care if a gsp is white and orange. If both parents are papered the pups should be registered. A good solid birddog is a good solid birddog regardless of the color and shouldn't be tossed aside or excluded from a breeding program if there ability is the desired trait that you want passed on to a litter of pups.

I care because I don't want GSP's to look like EP's. If I want a lemon/orange and white dog I will buy a pointer. If I want a GSP I will buy a liver roan, solid liver one.

In the big picture you have to look at the dog at home a lot more than we do in the field so I want a dog that is appealing at home too.

Ms. Cage wrote:

ultracarry wrote:It is done all the time, only have a chance of 25% being a carrier and there will not be any Orange and white pups, get pups tested and disclose that they may be a carrier..... No big deal.

Attitude like yours is why we have the small-e around today!!!

MS cage..... Why is it you are selling black shorthairs and criticize someone for have a little e carrier? Black is an unacceptable color... you are breeding an inferior dog.... You have the same attitude as the person you are condemning........ Now I am sure you don’t agree with it but it is. So it’s kind of hypocritical for you to be blasting someone on here who you really don’t know yet you breed incorrect color dogs..

Had you not put the name of the breeding on the post it would have been ok.

Black and black and white shorthairs are included in the breed standard all over the world, including the AKC. It is only in the show ring they are disqualified(usa only) not elsewhere.

So Jason, you think black is inferior? :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: Explain WHY! Awesome, I would love to hear it!! Here we go again....................................

jasonw99 wrote:MS cage..... Why is it you are selling black shorthairs and criticize someone for have a little e carrier? Black is an unacceptable color... you are breeding an inferior dog.... You have the same attitude as the person you are condemning........ Now I am sure you don’t agree with it but it is. So it’s kind of hypocritical for you to be blasting someone on here who you really don’t know yet you breed incorrect color dogs.. Had you not put the name of the breeding on the post it would have been ok.

Black is a documented color within the German breed. We know when black was brought into the breed. AKC is the only club in the world , mind the only club that does not allow black to be in the show ring . If you notice many of these dogs in the pedigree carry the INT CH show title. I might not have the correct initials here. the org. is the UBIC based out of Germany. All records are kept in Germany and certificates come from Germany. The worlds largest show ring. AKC is a drop in a bucket world wide compared to this show ring. most of the dogs in this pedigree carry three registrations, AKC, NAVHDA, and UBIC. Again I don't know if these initial are right , but I think you get my drift. The GSP runs under the same stanard as the DK . SO, inferior, hypocritical , not at all.

In my opinion black and white were around from the akwrite pointer what's the difference.all short sirs have pointer in there genes

AKC does not have a color standard. The standard for the breed is written by the members of the official GSP club in this country.

Ezzy

Hanshaw wrote:In my opinion black and white were around from the akwrite pointer what's the difference.all short sirs have pointer in there genes

Documentation on black vs none on white and lemon . You already seen it , people getting funny ( kinda dumb, Never seen it in there blood before . BLAH, BLAH, BLAH.
Infact you were going to get to the bottom of it if it took your last penny. That might not be your exact words , but close...

ezzy333 wrote:AKC does not have a color standard. The standard for the breed is written by the members of the official GSP club in this country.

We know this. AKC is registration. CLUB dictates Standard...

What was with the last post about folks leaving?

Ms. Cage wrote:Black is a documented color within the German breed. We know when black was brought into the breed. AKC is the only club in the world , mind the only club that does not allow black to be in the show ring . If you notice many of these dogs in the pedigree carry the INT CH show title. I might not have the correct initials here the org. is the UBIC based out of Germany. All records are kept in Germany and certificate come from Germany. The worlds largest show ring. AKC is a drop in a bucket world wide compared to this show ring. most of the dogs in this pedigree carry three registration, AKC, NAVHDA, and UBIC. Now I don't know if these initial are right , but I think you get my drift. The GSP runs under the same stanard as the DK . SO, inferior, hypocritical , not at all.

NOTE: Howie just told me the American club has split from the german based org. Though use the same german standard. All the dog in this pedigree were shown and reg. under the German club before the split. Why the split we don't know. Figuired I'd cover this since i'm sure someone will dig it up.

I finally got a straight answer to my question on all this e stuff. The e gene does not appear to be a mutant gene. It simplly shows that the dog carrying it has an orange or orange and white dog in its background, very likly a pointer, though there are other possibilities. I can see where people might get upset about registering the F1 offspring as gsps but it no doubt has happend. So some gsps may have some percentage of pointer blood, big whoop!

Black is inferior for the same reason an orange one is..... They arent inferior other than they are the wrong color. I am just using black as an example of hypocracy from certain peple. Black is ok orange is not.... I have no opinion on colors. I have preferences on what i choose to own but if someone wants a purple dog i say go for it.

The german standard applies in germany however we live in the United states. The only german thing in a shorthair is its name.

Oh ok...I thought we were going here again. Thanks for clarifying

by jasonw99 » Sat Dec 03, 2011 11:17 pm



gpblitz wrote:Why is it that so many are down on the Black DK brought in? Yet it's Ok that some took the Pure blood GSP cross bred to EP and developed a hybred mutt labeling them GSP!!!

because I have never seen a good black short hair. bootlicking and hardheaded


http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=1295
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=4888

jcbuttry8 wrote:

RyanGSP wrote:
But the mods are helping pile the junk on.

Seriously? You made it pretty clear on the other site how you feel about this site. If the contributions you have are to come here and bash all Mods then feel free to stay over there. You don't even know half the mods nor do you know me well enough to make any statements like this.

Joe

Isn't he already banned?

jasonw99 wrote:The german standard applies in germany however we live in the United states

The German standard applies world wide. In every show ring sponsered by the org. AKC,Only what AKC sponsers. The topic is no longer worth my time. Without documention on white/ lemon IMO your reaching for straws....

jasonw99 wrote:The german standard applies in germany however we live in the United states. The only german thing in a shorthair is its name.

The German standard goes for all German breeds. Just because they have been American breed doesn't change that. Do you know anything about gsp besides owning one. Their history divelopment what breeds were used to make them? I think not. Pointer is mixed in yes but legitimitly long ago. Yes some people have tainted some lines I know of two but they are old and gone due to these peoples mistake.

No one cares what color a dog is but if its not true to the breed its not a pure breed like it or not.

I'm starting to think well I already knew that some people only care about bettering their name while killing a line in the long run. Breeding dogs with defects is not the right way to breed. Example dogs with hip problems are only going to cause more hip problems in the breed. Color is just going to screw someone else down the road who thought everything was fine but someone before him knew the problem and brushed it off. Now this poor guy down the road gets stuck with pups. Think about the future in your breedings and other people not just yourselves.

Now I'll say it again, with our breeding we are to better our lines not introduce bad genes. You know people its a real shame how some of you have no care if lines that are good get messed up Dr to carelessness. I think some here have shown there true cilors about here respect for our breeds. If it finds your bird gets you a ribbon and name guess that's all that matters to some but I think your wrong

campgsp wrote:Pointer is mixed in yes but legitimitly long ago.

HANSHAW WROTE: In my opinion black and white were around from the akwrite pointer what's the difference.all short sirs have pointer in there genes

Ok, I gotta pipe up one more time. If the pointer blood was only the Ackwryght pointer (sp). The line of pointer was solid black more than likely being Dogs from the line were homozagous (SP). being a line of dogs, not just a solid black dog. Homozagous meaning the dog carried only fixed genes of solid and black. to think that is where the white/ lemon might have came from would not hold water. I think the best person to speak on homozagous would be Raven 34 since Jen has first hand experiance homozagous solid black.

campgsp wrote:The German standard goes for all German breeds. Just because they have been American breed doesn't change that.

Sorry I have to disagree with you. The AKC GSP show standard does differ from the German DK standard. Last I knew anyway. American GSP standard disallows black in the show ring. German DK standard allows the dogs to be about 10lbs. heavier and taller.

Other then akc allowing a black gsp to show and dk allowing a little heavier gsp. There are no characteristic that are different between the two. Legs,eyes,coat,color,yes color,bite, etc. Are all the same.

Here is a little history for you all.

Back in the old days in Germany when the Germans had a litter of pups and there were white pups they would put the white pups down because they thought it was a bad gene. They wouldn't use the sir or dam for another breeding. Then it kept happening so they discovered that the white gene was a dominant gene and still is today. You can match two solid liver gsp and get white in the pups coat. Amazing right. But that's legitimate.
Its wasn't from keeping on breeding a bad gene it was a gene already processed in from years of mating different breeds to make the gsp.
Today we are not needing to make the gsp we only need to better what we have by using the different lines we have. Cross breeding helps build a line. But now you all see why so many are afraid to crossbreed or out cross in other words. You don't know what you'll get with people making bad pits in pedigrees.

I have pretty much stayed out of this because we been there & done this before & nothing has changed & never will.I have just one question to ask though.
Does no one here believe that pointer was used in the make up of the GSP breed before they were imported to this country??
Oh & don't forget they were also imported from countries other then Germay.

My thoughts exactly

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:I have pretty much stayed out of this because we been there & done this before & nothing has changed & never will.I have just one question to ask though.
Does no one here believe that pointer was used in the make up of the GSP breed before they were imported to this country??
Oh & don't forget they were also imported from countries other then Germay.

Huge difference doing it in breed development and doing it under the table to attempt to gain a competitive advantage.

jasonw99 wrote:Black is inferior for the same reason an orange one is..... They arent inferior other than they are the wrong color. I am just using black as an example of hypocracy from certain peple. Black is ok orange is not.... I have no opinion on colors. I have preferences on what i choose to own but if someone wants a purple dog i say go for it.

The german standard applies in germany however we live in the United states. The only german thing in a shorthair is its name.

Apples to oranges. There is a difference between what is done in the light of day and recorded into history and stud books, and what is done by the covert of darkness behind the woodshed. (Dang you Cooper, you beat me to that by seconds. )

Hanshaw, what will you prove? GSPs with little e, if that is the case, can compete in FTs? That really wouldn't be shocking news, just a mockery to the breed and those that try to breed true to even the most simplest gsp identifying trait of color. And what would be the point of competing, if you didn't plan on breeding? Ick!

Andy I agree 100% & I don't think it should be done today & think anyone that does it today is stupid but we can't change what has already been done.I know alot of you think DNA is a joke Chip being
one of them but it wasn't a joke when he needed to find the sire of his bitch.He then proceeded to tell me the lines that have pointer in them & wanted no part of any of them but is now going to
breed his bitch to a GR SON of one of them.I pretty much think all of us are full of POOP!! We are not GOD!!

ACooper wrote:

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:I have pretty much stayed out of this because we been there & done this before & nothing has changed & never will.I have just one question to ask though.
Does no one here believe that pointer was used in the make up of the GSP breed before they were imported to this country??
Oh & don't forget they were also imported from countries other then Germay.

Huge difference doing it in breed development and doing it under the table to attempt to gain a competitive advantage.

Why would putting a little EP in the Gsp gene pool give u an advantage?
Sorry I had to ask. Just kidding

Mike

campgsp wrote:

jasonw99 wrote:The german standard applies in germany however we live in the United states. The only german thing in a shorthair is its name.

The German standard goes for all German breeds. Just because they have been American breed doesn't change that. Do you know anything about gsp besides owning one. Their history divelopment what breeds were used to make them? I think not. Pointer is mixed in yes but legitimitly long ago. Yes some people have tainted some lines I know of two but they are old and gone due to these peoples mistake.

No one cares what color a dog is but if its not true to the breed its not a pure breed like it or not.

I'm starting to think well I already knew that some people only care about bettering their name while killing a line in the long run. Breeding dogs with defects is not the right way to breed. Example dogs with hip problems are only going to cause more hip problems in the breed. Color is just going to screw someone else down the road who thought everything was fine but someone before him knew the problem and brushed it off. Now this poor guy down the road gets stuck with pups. Think about the future in your breedings and other people not just yourselves.

Now I'll say it again, with our breeding we are to better our lines not introduce bad genes. You know people its a real shame how some of you have no care if lines that are good get messed up Dr to carelessness. I think some here have shown there true cilors about here respect for our breeds. If it finds your bird gets you a ribbon and name guess that's all that matters to some but I think your wrong

So are all your dogs CHIC certified? Are you testing all your dogs for CD, LD, Heart,Hips,Elbows, and CERF? If not how can you tell somebody breeding a color gene is wrong? I think genes that affect a dogs life are a little more concerning to the breed and potential owners than a color but hey that's me!!!

That's what I would do, run the orange and white pups in some trials, thats really going to help the breed. Im sure you will get a ton of placements from allot of judges. If you want to do the right thing, have them fixed and give them to some young kids that are learning to hunt and want a hunting companion. You will waist allot of money carrying them around to trials but maybe your just trying to prove a point, to witch bettering the GSP breed is not it.

Adam wrote:So are all your dogs CHIC certified? Are you testing all your dogs for CD, LD, Heart,Hips,Elbows, and CERF? If not how can you tell somebody breeding a color gene is wrong?

Is there any relationship betweenChic, the small e and cross breeding

Ms. Cage wrote:

Adam wrote:So are all your dogs CHIC certified? Are you testing all your dogs for CD, LD, Heart,Hips,Elbows, and CERF? If not how can you tell somebody breeding a color gene is wrong?

Is there any relationship betweenChic, the small e and cross breeding

"Now I'll say it again, with our breeding we are to better our lines not introduce bad genes. You know people its a real shame how some of you have no care if lines that are good get messed up Dr to carelessness. I think some here have shown there true cilors about here respect for our breeds. If it finds your bird gets you a ribbon and name guess that's all that matters to some but I think your wrong"

There is when it comes down to bettering the breed as Health is the first thing people should worry about! I'd rather sell a puppy that is wrong color to a home than a dog that ends up with SAS a couple years into its life and the poor new family loses a 2 year old dog heck for that matter a 4 or 6 month old dog because I failed to do the health testing to BETTER the breed!

Adam wrote:There is when it comes down to bettering the breed as Health is the first thing people should worry about!

How about alittle of my husbands humorous wisdom. Alway good for the heart. CHIC, our boys sure do know how to pick them. CD they have learned how to put it in the CD player. Hips, they flow freely, elbow they haven't drank to much that there walking on them. LD, sometimes they run up 20mi. to the beach, cerf, they always bring home the good looking ones. Color genes, the boys need alittle improvment here. the boys can not tell the differance between white, native american, afro american yet. over all, howie will give the boys a pass.

You guys are on this color coat like it is a bad thing.this dog has just as much of a chance then the rest.there are no defects

Hanshaw wrote:You guys are on this color coat like it is a bad thing.this dog has just as much of a chance then the rest.there are no defects

For the amount of money you've sunk in the deal, I'd say if you want to try to train her to march in the Tournament of Roses Parade, you ought to. If her pedigree DNAed, then it's not your doing what color she is.

Have any of the results come back. I haven't seen anything. Maybe I missed it.

Joe

campgsp wrote:

jasonw99 wrote:The german standard applies in germany however we live in the United states. The only german thing in a shorthair is its name.

The German standard goes for all German breeds. Just because they have been American breed doesn't change that. Do you know anything about gsp besides owning one. Their history divelopment what breeds were used to make them? I think not. Pointer is mixed in yes but legitimitly long ago. Yes some people have tainted some lines I know of two but they are old and gone due to these peoples mistake.

No one cares what color a dog is but if its not true to the breed its not a pure breed like it or not.

I'm starting to think well I already knew that some people only care about bettering their name while killing a line in the long run. Breeding dogs with defects is not the right way to breed. Example dogs with hip problems are only going to cause more hip problems in the breed. Color is just going to screw someone else down the road who thought everything was fine but someone before him knew the problem and brushed it off. Now this poor guy down the road gets stuck with pups. Think about the future in your breedings and other people not just yourselves.

Now I'll say it again, with our breeding we are to better our lines not introduce bad genes. You know people its a real shame how some of you have no care if lines that are good get messed up Dr to carelessness. I think some here have shown there true cilors about here respect for our breeds. If it finds your bird gets you a ribbon and name guess that's all that matters to some but I think your wrong

The bettering the breed argument is based on opinions....
I could argue that breeding some massive boned, heavy gsp does not better the breed. WHile health is important there is so much more to the dog. Physical Attributes such as gait and size are important. A big boned heavy dog does not better the breed in my opinion.


the only reason i even posted on this post was to point out while you are picking on someone who doesnt share the same opinion as you, there are many other people who dont have the same opinions you do when it comes to color, Black specifically. So before placing judgement on someone you should look in the mirror.

I can care less what color the dog is... its not my dog and it doesnt directly impact me.

THis entire post seems to be a witch hunt on someone who didnt ask for your opinions and we all should respect that and drop it.

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Andy I agree 100% & I don't think it should be done today & think anyone that does it today is stupid but we can't change what has already been done.I know alot of you think DNA is a joke Chip being
one of them but it wasn't a joke when he needed to find the sire of his bitch.He then proceeded to tell me the lines that have pointer in them & wanted no part of any of them but is now going to
breed his bitch to a GR SON of one of them.I pretty much think all of us are full of POOP!! We are not GOD!!

Hey Ted How's it been, called ya the other day....


My bitch would be Jill, and her sire would be Cadens Coupe Deville, neither of them have ever had any question with their DNA, EVER. Might want to make sure if your going to call out a dogs DNA on a forum you get it correct. Jill is DNA mapped good always was, as was Cooper.

All of my dogs are DNA'd as well as any I will have and any pups as well.

As for Jills next litter....well heck she has a little pointer in her back quite a few gens too.......Hey that makes em doublebred.

Were you wanting one Sir?......

I want to apoligise to Chip for saying Jill's sire had to be found by DNA actually it was her dam's sire that was incorrect untill they DNAed a few stud dogs.
Did I get it right this time? sorry for the mix up you know I don't know much when I don't even know what the best litter I produced was.

No apology necessary as I am still trying to figure out
why I was brought into a thread I have not participated in, as well as the owners of other
dogs.

Have a personal vendetta with me that's fine start a new thread.
Apologies to Mr. Hanshaw

There is no need in calling out members or there dogs. Please keep the discussion to the topic at hand and refrain from finger pointing. If a member would like to share what has happened in there pedigrees then allow them to.

Joe

jasonw99 wrote:there are many other people who dont have the same opinions you do when it comes to color, Black specifically. So before placing judgement on someone you should look in the mirror. I can care less what color the dog is... its not my dog and it doesnt directly impact me.

Jason , It 's folks like you that beleive in dishonesty in reg., dishonesty in breeding and most of all denial .. All for what!!! To beat the next guy, To thump your chest . But how did you get there, through dishonesty. There are even more who would like to ctlsoof those that produce the small e and parade the lemon and white as a German shorthair.
There are folks who are proud to to own a shorthair for what they were meant. not for what some trialer chooses to turn the breed into for there own selfish benifit.
It was the DK brought into this country and named the GSP not a GSP/EP cross.

Jason , It 's folks like you that beleive in dishonesty in reg., dishonesty in breeding and most of all denial .. All for what!!! To beat the next guy, To thump your chest . But how did you get there, through dishonesty.

how many generations away from a small e carrier makes it ok to breed to that dog? 3, 9?

brad27 wrote:

Jason , It 's folks like you that beleive in dishonesty in reg., dishonesty in breeding and most of all denial .. All for what!!! To beat the next guy, To thump your chest . But how did you get there, through dishonesty.

how many generations away from a small e carrier makes it ok to breed to that dog? 3, 9?

It's not the "e" that makes them the product of a dishonest breeding. It's just a sure way to confirm it. If the "e" is lost during meiosis, the dog is still a mix. You could have a half pointer, half GSP with bbEE genetics bred into a line and no one could call it out with DNA on color.

Cajun Casey wrote:

brad27 wrote:

Jason , It 's folks like you that beleive in dishonesty in reg., dishonesty in breeding and most of all denial .. All for what!!! To beat the next guy, To thump your chest . But how did you get there, through dishonesty.

how many generations away from a small e carrier makes it ok to breed to that dog? 3, 9?

It's not the "e" that makes them the product of a dishonest breeding. It's just a sure way to confirm it. If the "e" is lost during meiosis, the dog is still a mix. You could have a half pointer, half GSP with bbEE genetics bred into a line and no one could call it out with DNA on color.

That was not the question........

brad27 wrote: how many generations away from a small e carrier makes it ok to breed to that dog? 3, 9?

Genetically, the answer is one, isn't it? A non carrier out of a carrier is clear so long as you breed it to a non carrier if producing carriers is what you're avoiding.

KwikIrish wrote:

brad27 wrote: how many generations away from a small e carrier makes it ok to breed to that dog? 3, 9?

Genetically, the answer is one, isn't it? A non carrier out of a carrier is clear so long as you breed it to a non carrier if producing carriers is what you're avoiding.

It was an ethics question.

Ms. Cage wrote:

jasonw99 wrote:there are many other people who dont have the same opinions you do when it comes to color, Black specifically. So before placing judgement on someone you should look in the mirror. I can care less what color the dog is... its not my dog and it doesnt directly impact me.

Jason , It 's folks like you that beleive in dishonesty in reg., dishonesty in breeding and most of all denial .. All for what!!! To beat the next guy, To thump your chest . But how did you get there, through dishonesty. There are even more who would like to ctlsoof those that produce the small e and parade the lemon and white as a German shorthair.
There are folks who are proud to to own a shorthair for what they were meant. not for what some trialer chooses to turn the breed into for there own selfish benifit.
It was the DK brought into this country and named the GSP not a GSP/EP cross.

Technically, it was a DK/EP Cross(along with others) and has been well documented as such in several different pieces of historical literature on GSP's.

Disclaimer: I am not supporting/promoting/agreeing/disagreeing /etc.. with any particular post. I also acknowladge lemon(or whatever you choose to call it) is not within the breed standard. Personally, I would not allow this pup in the gene pool, but that is not up to me, it's up to the AKC/GSPCA as they are the entities that govern our breed standards.

As you are well aware here is the AKC breed standard: Color: The coat may be of solid liver or a combination of liver and white such as liver and white ticked, liver patched and white ticked, or liver roan. A dog with any area of black, red, orange, lemon or tan, or a dog solid white will be disqualified.

Before I continue, we all must acknowledge that there is no AKC DK(deutsch kurzhaar). For the purposes of this thread, regarding this dog, what he is doing with it, the rest of our opinions, and how/where we evaluate our dogs we are talking about the German Shorthaired Pointer right?

My questions, based on comments made, that basically says this entire line should be dismissed as an illegal tainted outcross and should be eliminated from the gene pool are these: (assuming the pups DNA back to sire and dam)

1. How exactly are you coming to the conclusion anything other than a recessive trait is showing up?
2. If not #1, and you claim EP cross, how do you prove it?
3. How do you prove when it took place?
4. If you can't prove #3, how many generations do you go back and start the "black list" of dogs to be taken out of the gene pool?
5. Does this go for all "off color" puppies and the entire line they come from?
6. What about puppies with tan(or whatever you choose to call it)?

I asked #6, because I would like to see if the answers are the same for tan also. Is it not the same exact situation, with 100's of unanswerable/unprovable circumstances? Tan has shown up in the same lines as some of the posters on this thread crying foul, should they not be held to the same standards? Were those particular specimens with tan taken out of the gene pool? Was the entire line "black listed"?

Just to head off all the DK this and DK that answers, we are discussing GSP's and specifically it's American standards. The owner of the dog in question I'm sure has no intentions of claiming DK affiliation either. Yes, I can acknowladge GSP's originated from the DK's from various different countries, but I also acknowledge the DK originated from many breeds and nobody really knows exactly which ones and to what degree they influenced the modern GSP. We simply don't have the technology to do it.

Again, I am remaining neutral in this post and am not supporting/promoting/agreeing/disagreeing /etc.., just posing the questions!