My dog result of inbreeding

[cjhills]

SCT:
sorry, I was typing when you posted.......Cj

[meridiandave]

Well, I was going to post this article by Tom whiting about the difference between the Herbert and the Whiting fly tying lines. But of course I cannot find the article. Ugghhh...I found it two nights ago....

To paraphrase he talks about the Hoffman line being primarily inbred by the time he gets it. It was the superior feather at the time. That line came from rooster selection with the start of very few individuals.

The Herbert Line was developed by selecting it from the hen side. It was very genetically diverse. He always felt the Herbert line would be the better line.

While he never stated what line he outcrossed to, after coming in possession of both lines, he produced the best flytying feathers the world has ever seen. It is well known he outcrossed the Hoffman line, although he has never publicly said to what. The line needed more genetics that were in the heavily inbred line. Both lines produce fantastic feathers now.

I guess the moral of the story is this inbreeding/linebreeding may help you set your type, but to advance the. Breed you will need to outcross.

[ezzy333]

I guess the moral of the story is this inbreeding/linebreeding may help you set your type, but to advance the. Breed you will need to outcross.

This is the basics of the two mrthods

[SCT]

Now, If we would discuss how they put the Grit and retrieve into the EP that would be interesting. It was not by inbreeding. Well second or third generation maybe. Good thing there was not DNA testing in those Days. Cj

This is a good question and I can only answer in a way that I cannot say is fact. But, simply put, it is through selection for those two qualities. Guts comes down through selecting dogs that have guts. How do you know a dog has guts? Go to an AF horseback championship field trial and watch the dog that finishes the hour (or 3 hours at the National) with strength, speed, and endurance. That's a dog you want to breed to to bring guts, bottom, stamina, endurance, into your program. Same with retrieve, see which ones like to retrieve and select those individuals.

Look at this pedigree.



Look for the incestual breeding which produces Fast Drug Delivery. He's a product of a full brother sister breeding. Prior to that there is a father to daughter breeding. Fast Drug Delivery is found on the top and the bottom. The Haberdasher is found 11 times in this 7 generation pedigree. How many times is Fast Delivery (The Haberdasher's sire) in there. Riggin's White Knight is found on the top side twice. This is how prepotency is created. This is Branscum's Nickel's pedigree and he is in my dogs bloodlines many times over. One dog I really like to see in there is The Texas Squire (Pure Royalty!!). He was known for his guts, bottom, and producing All Age champions. His sire Flushes Country Squire was an unbelievable bird dog from what I've heard. His daughter, Branscum's Texas Liz was Nickel's mother. She is where the dark reddish brown ear color comes from in my dogs. Branscum's Nickel was known not just for his excellent nose and brains, which is still passed down to my pups, but also for his bottom. He may not have been the fastest dog at breakaway (even though he often was), but after 40 minutes on the ground he would show his endurance and finish with strength and speed, leaving the other dogs behind. This "bottom" I've seen in my own dogs on the prairies of ND last year, but I'll spare you the story. All these quality traits I'm mentioning are a product of selective inbreeding and line breeding. The desire to retrieve is also in the mix.

The problem with outcrosses is that yes, you will produce some outstanding individuals, but, they do not produce themselves because they're genes are scrambled and lost in the mix. That's why it's "safe" to outcross, because all the bad genes are lost in the mix as well. You want to get rid of bad traits, you line breed to expose them, and cull them from the breeding population.

[TDT]

CJ, I did not think there would be this much discussion on the topic and it is all interesting reading and I did learn something new about the world of dog breeding. I went and did more research on the pedigrees of the dogs not from the breeder who sold me my dog but the breeder who sold my breeder his stud dog and the mother of my dog which happened to be the same breeder but different owner of my dogs father and it looks like he uses a lot in inbreeding/linebreeding father/daughter etc. in creating his line of dogs. I would like to know more about canine genetics so that will be something I will follow up on.

I think dog breeding and creating a line of dogs that involves the process of inbreeding and line breeding would be a good topic in one of the national dog magazines but I wonder how that might be taken if you are talking about inbreeding. My thought about inbreeding before I started this discussion was negative and did not think it was right. But after everyone gave their thoughts and I started finding things online it can be a good thing in canines. Everyone that I have talked to about my dogs pedigree dog people and non-dog people had raised eyebrows and wondered if it was a bad thing.

[SCT]

Most people have a negative opinion of inbreeding or linebreeding, but no actual knowledge about it, including some veterinarians. If I mention a tight breeding to someone they always say "you're going to get two-headed puppies" or something silly like that. With inbreeding or outcrossing you have to be able to cull the defective puppies. Every breeding is an experiment;-)

Here's a basic theory on line breeding that explains a lot of basics about genetics. http://www.shewmaker.com/digest94.pdf

[SCT]

Here's an example of what you might see with line breeding. One of my growth charts at 7 weeks old on a litter of 8 puppies, 5 males, 3 females.

Male-9lbs, 15 ounces
Male-9lbs, 11 ounces
Male-9lbs, 6 ounces
Male-9lbs, 1 ounce
Male-8lbs, 12 ounces
Female-9lbs, 12 ounces
Female-9lbs, 3 ounces
Female-8lbs, 12 ounces

This is what I call uniformity.

Most of the litter out for a walk. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCOYlNws30g

[ezzy333]

Here's an example of what you might see with line breeding. One of my growth charts at 7 weeks old on a litter of 8 puppies, 5 males, 3 females.

Male-9lbs, 15 ounces
Male-9lbs, 11 ounces
Male-9lbs, 6 ounces
Male-9lbs, 1 ounce
Male-8lbs, 12 ounces
Female-9lbs, 12 ounces
Female-9lbs, 3 ounces
Female-8lbs, 12 ounces

This is what I call uniformity.

Most of the litter out for a walk. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCOYlNws30g

I think most of the uniformity of weight in young puppies is due to a good milking female that allows all of the pups to eat well. Uniform physical conformation and mental characteristics is more the end result from the linebreeding.

[SCT]

Maybe ezzy, but you should have seen them when they were born, all identical in size. Not much to do with mothers milk!

[cjhills]

I have a litter that will be 9 wks on Tuesday.
This litter is a repeat of a litter from two years ago. The sire of this litter is a half brother and sister breeding with a coi of .35. The mother of this litter has a much lower coi. They have one common ancestor in six generations. They do have some fairly closely related dogs from three generations and farther back. I have bred four generations of the bitch.
This litter had 9 puppies one was still born. 4 males and 4 females. At the 7 week vet check The largest was a female at 9.4 pounds the smallest was a female at 8.8. Checking the records of the two year old litter 5 males and 5 females. Largest was a male 9.2 smallest 8.5 ,Accept for one puppy which had a navel hernia and weighed only 5 pounds.
She is a 54 pound adult, about the same as the other females.
This is 18 puppies 9 of each gender. Very similar birth weights and very similar size the adult dogs. one female is about 10 pounds smaller. The liver and white pups are almost identical in color and very similar in most ways at this time. Competing well in whatever their owners choose to do.
I would call this an outcross and an example of what you get when you breed two very good dogs who have similar traits and breeding.
I can safely tell people what these dogs will be as adults........Cj

[SCT]

Sounds like a prepotent male passing down his genes. Sounds like the bitch is line bred for four generations?

I would agree it sounds like an outcross, a lot of unknowns in these experiments. I don't really believe you need to know more about genetics than what you can learn from the racing pigeon article. I think experience is much more important.

[cjhills]

Sounds like a prepotent male passing down his genes. Sounds like the bitch is line bred for four generations?

I would agree it sounds like an outcross, a lot of unknowns in these experiments. I don't really believe you need to know more about genetics than what you can learn from the racing pigeon article. I think experience is much more important.

I am not sure I buy the prepotant sire and blue hen theory. There are two sides to every breeding and I do not believe one side contributes more than the other.
The Ep may be a older and purer breed in America than the GSP, I do not know. But, I can tell you there are a lot of genetic issues in the GSPs, and a lot can be contributed to inbreeding blood lines from very heavily used, popular sires of the day.
Many Issues are not apparent in the whelping box. The bigger problem is recessive genes. By the times some issues start to show up some males have been bred multiple times and have many descendants on the ground.
One of the issues that is easy to see and fairly common in GSPs is bad bite. This can be a recessive gene. If the breeding dogs that have produced several litters with no issues are bred together and you get a puppy with a bad bite, where do you go? You obviously do not use the puppy with bad bite. But are the other puppies carriers? Do you stop using the breeding dogs who may represent a fairly large investment but both may be producing puppies who are carriers. Plus, After a long discussion just yesterday with a genetic testing company at Game Fair in Mn. They tell me have not isolated a gene for bite issues and they say there are several different paths to get you there. This is from a company who sells genetic blood testing. This is one of many issues. Dog genetics are much more complicated than pigeons genetics. Skeletal issues, if they are minor, are very easy to overlook in dogs that you have seen everyday since birth, but may stand out to somebody seeing the dog for the first time. It is very hard to be objective. This is why I take what breeders tell me with a grain of salt. Has I hope other breeders take what I tell them.
Westwind GSP website has some very interesting articles on inbreeding. I spent many hours talking with Gary and have had some of his dogs. He is a GSP bloodlines and genetic expert. He was and is very protective of his mother line. In fact if you buy a female pup from him you do not get breeding rights. His web site has not been up dated for years but it is interesting reading. Most of my early breeding theories came directly from him. I had to change some of my thinking.
I hope everybody takes this as it is intended. I am not telling you how much I know, I am telling you how little I know and definitely not wanting to argue.
I really wish I had more answers. I just keep getting more questions.
One of the issues with people who are experts is being open minded enough to say. Dang, maybe I have been wrong...............Cj

[SCT]

I only want to learn myself, no interest in arguing. Inbreeding is what created this male you speak of that you are now using a second time with this female. There's obviously something that you see in him and his puppies, or you wouldn't use him again. Could those qualities you see in him have been created by total outcrossing, and would he pass on those qualities as consistently as he does if he didn't have a high COI??? I don't know the answer to that question, but I have my suspicions,

What is the main goal of inbreeding/linebreeding??? Prepotency?? If it isn't prepotency, then what?? If it is prepotency, then why??

Like you say, bite is a skeletal issue. What about turned out front feet? Cow hocked back legs? What about tails???? Bad traits can be bred out of a single line within a breed, but it takes time, knowledgeable selectivity, and ruthless culling. Can bad traits be bred out of a breed?? Bull dogs have been bred to have such big heads that virtually all births must be through c-section. Who's responsible for this?? There is now a movement towards natural birth, and with no help from the AKC, the breeders could possibly reverse what was selected for.

Most breeds of dogs were originally bred to perform a task for humans. They were designed to WORK! Working dogs should work, and be tested in a way that shows their skill at their job. But, that's a whole other can of worms!

[cjhills]

I only want to learn myself, no interest in arguing. Inbreeding is what created this male you speak of that you are now using a second time with this female. There's obviously something that you see in him and his puppies, or you wouldn't use him again. Could those qualities you see in him have been created by total outcrossing, and would he pass on those qualities as consistently as he does if he didn't have a high COI??? I don't know the answer to that question, but I have my suspicions,

What is the main goal of inbreeding/linebreeding??? Prepotency?? If it isn't prepotency, then what?? If it is prepotency, then why??

Like you say, bite is a skeletal issue. What about turned out front feet? Cow hocked back legs? What about tails???? Bad traits can be bred out of a single line within a breed, but it takes time, knowledgeable selectivity, and ruthless culling. Can bad traits be bred out of a breed?? Bull dogs have been bred to have such big heads that virtually all births must be through c-section. Who's responsible for this?? There is now a movement towards natural birth, and with no help from the AKC, the breeders could possibly reverse what was selected for.

Most breeds of dogs were originally bred to perform a task for humans. They were designed to WORK! Working dogs should work, and be tested in a way that shows their skill at their job. But, that's a whole other can of worms!

I really hoped that this would be seen as discussion rather than arguing. I am not against inbreeding I have done many 1/2 brother and sister breedings. I do not go tighter than that and I agree working dogs should work, but in order to do that they should be structurally,physically and mentally correct.
I just used bad bites as an example, because it is common and easy for people to see of course the other things you have mentioned are exactly the same and if you go visit a big inbreeding kennel you are likely to see some of that.
Bad traits are very unlikely to be totally bred out of a line within a breed. they may become less frequent but never non existent, They generally will show up.
I did not buy my inbred pup expecting him to make good puppies from a garbage female. I expect him to produce good puppies from and outcross female with similar good traits. The pups have at least as many traits that the mother has as the father
I guess my biggest problem is this. Why do we assume the prepotant sire is only prepotant for good traits? Dogs regress toward the mean. You can not tell the dog has recessive bad genes by looking at it. Why do we assume the stud dog is responsible for so much when some geneticists believe the opposite. Geneticist also believe the prepotant sire is genetically impossible.
There are genetic issues in Labrador retrievers which can be directly traced to inbred lines from big name kennels whose dogs were bred many times before the issue manifested itself. By then it had spread through out the breed. Some of these sires were national champions. so the work ethic was not the issue.
Why if somebody has the experience to pick the dog that has good genetics within a bloodline can't the same experience not work with an outcross.
I have made expensive mistakes buying puppies from big name breeders who convinced me their way was the only right way. Many times it wasn't.
Again not arguing just wondering.......Cj
Oh, pretty sure the big heads on bulldogs came from inbreeding son some expert breeder wanted that and it worked

[SCT]

Exactly my point. It comes down to selection! Articulate or poor. You point out exactly why people in general shouldn't line breed. However, some are very good at it! This is just a big loop so I'll get out now. Good luck with your like type to like type breeding, it should serve you and your clients well.

[cjhills]

Here is a interesting little bit on animal genetics.
HYPP Hyperkalemic Periodic Paralysis is a disease of Quarter Horses sired by Impressive. He was a bigtime halter horse and was bred many times before it was discovered. Some horses showed symptoms, some were carriers and some were clear. They DNA testing on hair samples. This was a financial disaster for many people.
Nothing to do with dogs but it is interesting that one horse can have his own disease.......Cj

[meridiandave]

I really enjoy these threads. It always sends me to do a lot of research. People speak ill of linebreeding primarily because geneticists do. That doesn't mean that it cannot be done, bit linebreeding always leads to a loss of genetic diversity. The reason it is frowned on is inbreeding depression, antagonistic plieotropy, and heterozygote advantage are real things seen across every animal species.

It was said that linebreeding allows you to breed of bad genes. However the entire reason for linebreeding is to create higher odds of getting a homozygote gene pairing. In doing so, by line breeding you mathematically increase your odds of passing on bad genes. In the example given above we know those bad genes must be recessive. So we already create a carrier line on the grandparents side, before the genes are manifest as homoygotes in the grandchildren. Are culling every offspring on a recessive line? Of course not.

That is why this stuff is tricky business.

I love GWP because they were developed from multiple breeds (pudelpointer, stilchaar, wirehaired pointing griffon and, Deutsche kurzhar based on a testing system. To me I want on of those dogs.